The (idiotic) rules of golf strikes again

[jlbos83]

One thing that I am starting to learn is that the rules can be as much your friend as your enemy.

[j_moo]

[quote name='jlbos83' timestamp='1311792173' post='3429116']
I would say all of those conditions come into play in pro golf. Casual water and animal holes and the like are going to be there no matter what you do. Staked trees are a local rule, unless I am mistaken, to protect the newly planted trees. Again, certainly happens on tour.

Way more than different rules, we play under different conditions. Their fairways are almost like greens, their greens like pool tables, etc. Yes, it would be easier to play on grass than weeds, but at least we play by consistent rules. I think the goal of the rules is to make the game as fair as possible between people playing on the same course in the same conditions. Obviously the rules can't change the conditions, but they can say that what you may or may not do with your ball is the same today as it will be next week.
[/quote]

Can't say I've seen animal holes on TV like I've seen them at my local munis. When I drive down the fairway, there's a mass stampede of ground hogs. The hole are so numerous in certain areas, it looks like they are aerating with golf cup holes.

Okay, we agree on the different conditions. My point is that because of these different conditions, the game is different. Although the rules, all of it, is the same, the rules that are actually applied are different. I've caddied at private courses for years and have never seen animal holes, casual water, or staked trees. The maintenance crew is massive and constantly working. Heck, there's barely anyone on the course to make spike marks, ball marks or divots. Bunkers are always raked and perfect. Ground crews and caddies make sure of that.

Under such conditions, rolling the ball a bit in the fairway gains you no advantage from playing the ball down. It was a perfect lie and it's still a perfect lie. Since we can't say this at most courses, it's a different game. The rules should, IMHO, treat it as such.

[Newby]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311784862' post='3428688']
These are conditions of the course for which rules had to be made. You don't usually see these conditions on the PGA because they work very hard so that these conditions don't exist. But at the local muni, it's very common. Which means, you are playing under a different set of active rules. I understand your saying it's all under the current rules. The difference is which rules actually come into play between pro and amateur golf.

It's much easier to play where it lies on pro condition courses than the local muni where fairways are mostly dirt and weeds.
[/quote]

But you don't play matches against the pros or in the same strokeplay competitions as them so what difference does it make.
If they played on munis or you played on the Congressional you are playing in exactly the same circumstances and they would still beat you (probably by a bigger margin on the muni)

You pay a lot of money into the game (ie business) to see them play golf. The game (business) pays a lot of money to courses to have them play in the best conditions. You pay them less and they will have to play on poorer courses.

[j_moo]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1311803658' post='3429589']
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311784862' post='3428688']
These are conditions of the course for which rules had to be made. You don't usually see these conditions on the PGA because they work very hard so that these conditions don't exist. But at the local muni, it's very common. Which means, you are playing under a different set of active rules. I understand your saying it's all under the current rules. The difference is which rules actually come into play between pro and amateur golf.

It's much easier to play where it lies on pro condition courses than the local muni where fairways are mostly dirt and weeds.
[/quote]

But you don't play matches against the pros or in the same strokeplay competitions as them so what difference does it make.
If they played on munis or you played on the Congressional you are playing in exactly the same circumstances and they would still beat you (probably by a bigger margin on the muni)

You pay a lot of money into the game (ie business) to see them play golf. The game (business) pays a lot of money to courses to have them play in the best conditions. You pay them less and they will have to play on poorer courses.
[/quote]

My point exactly, what difference does it make, except it would be fairer to those playing on muni courses. So make the rules different for the different conditions.

[jlbos83]

Newby said what I was trying to say. The rules allow for a level playing field on the same course on the same day, which is (usually) all one could ask. A high school infield isn't quite the same as a major league infield, but there's no allowance for a bad hop.

Play the course as you find it, play the ball as it lies. Anything else would be really difficult to put in the rules (whose judgement determines what is fair?).

If you want to give yourself a preferred lie, go ahead, as long as you are not competing with someone that is playing by the rules. After all, it is supposed to be fun!

[j_moo]

[quote name='jlbos83' timestamp='1311804328' post='3429620']
Newby said what I was trying to say. The rules allow for a level playing field on the same course on the same day, which is (usually) all one could ask. A high school infield isn't quite the same as a major league infield, but there's no allowance for a bad hop.

Play the course as you find it, play the ball as it lies. Anything else would be really difficult to put in the rules (whose judgement determines what is fair?).

If you want to give yourself a preferred lie, go ahead, as long as you are not competing with someone that is playing by the rules. After all, it is supposed to be fun!
[/quote]


No one is confusing high school baseball for pro baseball. They don't play by the same rules. Equipment for one.

Even NCAA and pro have different rules for the same sports. Why not golf?

[jlbos83]

Well, my opinion only, it's one of the cool things about golf. One set of rules for everyone, we all play the same game. Sure, some play it a little differently than others!

I don't really see what rules I would change for the muni player as opposed to the pro. And I can't see a compelling reason to do it. Sure, the lies we get are not alway great. Sometimes they are even bad. But what would you do? As soon as you allow some improvement of the lie you open up a huge can of worms, in my opinion, unless it is just a blanket statement. If you said fairway only, I could find plenty of places where I can't tell you where the fairway ends and the rough starts. And by improving my lie, oh look, that tree isn't in the way any more! I just don't see a need, or any useful and fair change.

All of that said, it's an interesting discussion.

[Rockfish]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311804759' post='3429641']
[quote name='jlbos83' timestamp='1311804328' post='3429620']
Newby said what I was trying to say. The rules allow for a level playing field on the same course on the same day, which is (usually) all one could ask. A high school infield isn't quite the same as a major league infield, but there's no allowance for a bad hop.

Play the course as you find it, play the ball as it lies. Anything else would be really difficult to put in the rules (whose judgement determines what is fair?).

If you want to give yourself a preferred lie, go ahead, as long as you are not competing with someone that is playing by the rules. After all, it is supposed to be fun!
[/quote]


No one is confusing high school baseball for pro baseball. They don't play by the same rules. Equipment for one.

Even NCAA and pro have different rules for the same sports. Why not golf?
[/quote]

Perhaps because in all THOSE sports the player are not responsible for enforcing the rules or even KNOWING them. That's why there are game officials.

In golf there is usually only ONE "official" - the player himself.

NO player *I* know knows ALL the rules. (Not even Kev ), hence you can play 2 balls while declaring which you want to count and get a ruling later.

And now you think there should be different rules for different situations/courses/levels of play ???

I think not.

[j_moo]

[quote name='jlbos83' timestamp='1311805484' post='3429670']
Well, my opinion only, it's one of the cool things about golf. One set of rules for everyone, we all play the same game. Sure, some play it a little differently than others!

I don't really see what rules I would change for the muni player as opposed to the pro. And I can't see a compelling reason to do it. Sure, the lies we get are not alway great. Sometimes they are even bad. But what would you do? As soon as you allow some improvement of the lie you open up a huge can of worms, in my opinion, unless it is just a blanket statement. If you said fairway only, I could find plenty of places where I can't tell you where the fairway ends and the rough starts. And by improving my lie, oh look, that tree isn't in the way any more! I just don't see a need, or any useful and fair change.

All of that said, it's an interesting discussion.
[/quote]

I guess I'm more of the spirit of the game and not the letter of the law type of person. So the the rules mean little to me as they do change. The latest, the grooves (how long have square grooves been around and does anyone think manufacturers won't just make balls or other techology to combat it?) and people calling in on rulings.

I understand it's not easy creating another set of rules for muni play, especially when the ruling bodies don't make money directly from us hackers. But I always ask myself, am I cheating the game by doing this? Is this a reasonable expectation if the course is not in such poor condition? Heck, I think 100+ players should tee up every shot. Makes it fun for them and doesn't really take that much of the game away from them. [b]It is a game afterall.[/b]

When we play a round of golf, it's just the group and mostly your cart mate. By and large, it's a relatively private matter. When the pros play, it's thousands walking the course with millions more watching at home. The two events are completely different. Not sure why there is the insistance they should follow the exact same rules?

[j_moo]

[quote name='jlbos83' timestamp='1311805484' post='3429670']
Well, my opinion only, it's one of the cool things about golf. One set of rules for everyone, we all play the same game. Sure, some play it a little differently than others!
[/quote]

Let's not kid ourselves, the pros don't play the same game as most of the golfing population.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311804327' post='3429619']
My point exactly, what difference does it make, except it would be fairer to those playing on muni courses. So make the rules different for the different conditions.
[/quote]

For starters, I play at public courses, and it's consistently topping 100 degrees here in Texas. Yet the courses aren't all weeds and dirt as you describe. And I cannot even remember the last time my ball ended in a divot. Are you proposing that if you pay less than $15 for the round (arbitrary number ) that you can improve your lie? Or if the fairway is less than a certain percentage of good grass?

[quote]
I guess I'm more of the spirit of the game and not the letter of the law type of person.[/quote]

The spirit of the game is to play the ball as it lies. Golf courses today, even the bad ones, have conditions that absolutely blow away courses from 100 years ago. The rules have increased in complexity to allow for artificial items on the course, and also to account for all the ways that people attempt to break rules that are should be simple. Now you are proposing to make them MORE complex, to have more exceptions based on less than ideal (in your mind) conditions.

[quote]Not sure why there is the insistance they should follow the exact same rules?[/quote]

In your casual games with friends, if you want to bend the rules, improve lies from divots, whatever, who cares? If that's how you want to play the game, then fine. And I mean that with no judgment at all. I'm not one of those "you moved the ball six inches so you aren't playing the game of golf" kind of guys. But I can't see that you've made a single suggestion on a rule that would make the game simpler (or better) for amateurs.

This thread was about a rules infraction in a competitive event, and I can't understand why that event should have different rules than the pros. Oh wait...they DO have different rules. They can take practice putts after they hole out (if they don't slow down play), and can change brands of golf balls between holes.

[j_moo]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1311814360' post='3430005']
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311804327' post='3429619']
My point exactly, what difference does it make, except it would be fairer to those playing on muni courses. So make the rules different for the different conditions.
[/quote]

For starters, I play at public courses, and it's consistently topping 100 degrees here in Texas. Yet the courses aren't all weeds and dirt as you describe. And I cannot even remember the last time my ball ended in a divot. Are you proposing that if you pay less than $15 for the round (arbitrary number ) that you can improve your lie? Or if the fairway is less than a certain percentage of good grass?

[quote]
I guess I'm more of the spirit of the game and not the letter of the law type of person.[/quote]

The spirit of the game is to play the ball as it lies. Golf courses today, even the bad ones, have conditions that absolutely blow away courses from 100 years ago. The rules have increased in complexity to allow for artificial items on the course, and also to account for all the ways that people attempt to break rules that are should be simple. Now you are proposing to make them MORE complex, to have more exceptions based on less than ideal (in your mind) conditions.

[quote]Not sure why there is the insistance they should follow the exact same rules?[/quote]

In your casual games with friends, if you want to bend the rules, improve lies from divots, whatever, who cares? If that's how you want to play the game, then fine. And I mean that with no judgment at all. I'm not one of those "you moved the ball six inches so you aren't playing the game of golf" kind of guys. But I can't see that you've made a single suggestion on a rule that would make the game simpler (or better) for amateurs.

This thread was about a rules infraction in a competitive event, and I can't understand why that event should have different rules than the pros. Oh wait...they DO have different rules. They can take practice putts after they hole out (if they don't slow down play), and can change brands of golf balls between holes.
[/quote]

Price doesn't always dictate course conditions. In my immediate area, there are muni courses that are well maintained and then there are courses where entire fairways are dirt and weeds.


The spirit of the game is to play the ball down, agreed. However, not all courses maintain the conditions of a proper golf course. If conditions didn't matter, what not just play on a dirt field?

Ever play on a course while they are aerating? Think that's normal golf? I think rules say you don't get relieve from those.

I'm still trying to get people to agree that pros and amateurs should have different rules. Like you said, people make up rules already, so why not make them official for your recreational players. Winter rules year round is a good suggestion I've heard. Move the ball if taking the swing is going to damage your club or hurt yourself. If you lost your ball in the rough where it's reasonable for you to find, drop with no penalty. I think an WRXer called it the PGA rule.

[Rockfish]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311819642' post='3430258']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1311814360' post='3430005']
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311804327' post='3429619']
My point exactly, what difference does it make, except it would be fairer to those playing on muni courses. So make the rules different for the different conditions.
[/quote]

For starters, I play at public courses, and it's consistently topping 100 degrees here in Texas. Yet the courses aren't all weeds and dirt as you describe. And I cannot even remember the last time my ball ended in a divot. Are you proposing that if you pay less than $15 for the round (arbitrary number ) that you can improve your lie? Or if the fairway is less than a certain percentage of good grass?

[quote]
I guess I'm more of the spirit of the game and not the letter of the law type of person.[/quote]

The spirit of the game is to play the ball as it lies. Golf courses today, even the bad ones, have conditions that absolutely blow away courses from 100 years ago. The rules have increased in complexity to allow for artificial items on the course, and also to account for all the ways that people attempt to break rules that are should be simple. Now you are proposing to make them MORE complex, to have more exceptions based on less than ideal (in your mind) conditions.

[quote]Not sure why there is the insistance they should follow the exact same rules?[/quote]

In your casual games with friends, if you want to bend the rules, improve lies from divots, whatever, who cares? If that's how you want to play the game, then fine. And I mean that with no judgment at all. I'm not one of those "you moved the ball six inches so you aren't playing the game of golf" kind of guys. But I can't see that you've made a single suggestion on a rule that would make the game simpler (or better) for amateurs.

This thread was about a rules infraction in a competitive event, and I can't understand why that event should have different rules than the pros. Oh wait...they DO have different rules. They can take practice putts after they hole out (if they don't slow down play), and can change brands of golf balls between holes.
[/quote]

Price doesn't always dictate course conditions. In my immediate area, there are muni courses that are well maintained and then there are courses where entire fairways are dirt and weeds.


The spirit of the game is to play the ball down, agreed. However, not all courses maintain the conditions of a proper golf course. If conditions didn't matter, what not just play on a dirt field?

Ever play on a course while they are aerating? Think that's normal golf? I think rules say you don't get relieve from those.

[color="#8B0000"][b]I'm still trying to get people to agree that pros and amateurs should have different rules.[/b][/color] Like you said, people make up rules already, so why not make them official for your recreational players. Winter rules year round is a good suggestion I've heard. Move the ball if taking the swing is going to damage your club or hurt yourself. If you lost your ball in the rough where it's reasonable for you to find, drop with no penalty. I think an WRXer called it the PGA rule.
[/quote]

Yeah, that'll happen sometime soon.

Look. If you're NOT going to keep a handicap and NOT going to enter ANY events that rely on handicaps and you're NOT going to try to get a $ game with someone who FOLLOWS all the rules, knock yourself out.

ENJOY the game however YOU feel it should be played. NOBODY cares.

But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311819642' post='3430258']

I'm still trying to get people to agree that pros and amateurs should have different rules. Like you said, people make up rules already, so why not make them official for your recreational players. Winter rules year round is a good suggestion I've heard. Move the ball if taking the swing is going to damage your club or hurt yourself. If you lost your ball in the rough where it's reasonable for you to find, drop with no penalty.
[/quote]

It's been evident for some time that you want people to endorse easier rules for you. Ostensibly because your course conditions frustrate you.

I'd suggest you simply get used to higher scores. Or make up your own game that gives you relief from everything you don't like.

[QEight]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311819642' post='3430258']
Ever play on a course while they are aerating? Think that's normal golf? I think rules say you don't get relieve from those.
[/quote]

You mean when they punch holes all over the course and leave the "worms" on the fairway? During that time I think you are allowed to improve your lie, i.e. winter rules. But at the same time, could be that you are not allowed to leave handicap affecting scores on that course anyway.

[Newby]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311819642' post='3430258']
Ever play on a course while they are aerating? Think that's normal golf? I think rules say you don't get relieve from those.

[/quote]

[color=#474747][size=2][color=#474747]d. Aeration Holes[/color]

[color=#474747]When a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url] has been aerated, a Local Rule permitting relief, without penalty, from an aeration hole may be warranted. The following Local Rule is recommended:[/color]

[color=#474747]"[url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]Through the green[/i][/url], a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be lifted without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"]course[/url] [/i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url].[/color]

[color=#474747]On the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green[/i][/url], a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url] that avoids the situation.[/color]

[/size][/color]

[j_moo]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1311711171' post='3425722']
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311710526' post='3425689']
Okay, would you agreed it's unreasonalbly harsh? The law fines people for speeding. Taking away their cars would be unreasonably harsh.

They have score boards for baseball, where teams score less than 10 runs combined. 70+ strokes in 4+ hours, it's reasonable to assume the players, focusing on playing, could innocently make mistakes. Especially in a situation where there is a ruling. That makes the rules bigger than the game.
[/quote]

I must confess that I'm not really sure if a DQ for an incorrect score is unreasonably harsh. I see both sides, and depending on the specifics of a change might be comfortable either way.

Part of the argument to enforce the DQ relates to a fundamental difference between baseball and golf. As a baseball player you are encouraged to get whatever you can from a play, regardless of what honestly happened. You never see a catcher tell an ump that in reality he missed the tag on the guy sliding into home. On that basis the scoreboard rules, and that's fine with me. But in golf where the scoreboard refelects what the player says it should, there has to be a high price for putting something misleading up there.
[/quote]

Actually, there are scoreboards in golf. It's called a leaderboard. Actually, there are scorers with each group of players. In older footage, you see people in the background holding up signs of the scores of players in the group. At the 18th at the British, the big yellow board shows hole-by-hole scores. I think leader/score boards are everywhere on most pro tournaments nowadays. So the only reason for checking scorecards is to catch the players making a mistake.

[Newby]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311838783' post='3430612']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1311711171' post='3425722']
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311710526' post='3425689']
Okay, would you agreed it's unreasonalbly harsh? The law fines people for speeding. Taking away their cars would be unreasonably harsh.

They have score boards for baseball, where teams score less than 10 runs combined. 70+ strokes in 4+ hours, it's reasonable to assume the players, focusing on playing, could innocently make mistakes. Especially in a situation where there is a ruling. That makes the rules bigger than the game.
[/quote]

I must confess that I'm not really sure if a DQ for an incorrect score is unreasonably harsh. I see both sides, and depending on the specifics of a change might be comfortable either way.

Part of the argument to enforce the DQ relates to a fundamental difference between baseball and golf. As a baseball player you are encouraged to get whatever you can from a play, regardless of what honestly happened. You never see a catcher tell an ump that in reality he missed the tag on the guy sliding into home. On that basis the scoreboard rules, and that's fine with me. But in golf where the scoreboard refelects what the player says it should, there has to be a high price for putting something misleading up there.
[/quote]

Actually, there are scoreboards in golf. It's called a leaderboard. Actually, there are scorers with each group of players. In older footage, you see people in the background holding up signs of the scores of players in the group. At the 18th at the British, the big yellow board shows hole-by-hole scores. I think leader/score boards are everywhere on most pro tournaments nowadays. So the only reason for checking scorecards is to catch the players making a mistake. [/quote]


The people looking after the leader boards are not always right. Sometimes they will get wrong information from the walking reporters. The only people who have the correct score are the player and his marker (providing they have recorded any penalties the player has incurred). eg The reporters often don't see or aren't aware that the player has moved his ball. If there is a referee in matchplay he will have the correct score of course.
A Rules Official in strokeplay may not.

[jlbos83]

Well, my opinions...
The penalty in the original post wasn't too harsh. He should have known the rule, or known to ask. It's not ambiguous, or complicated. It's not a different rule on the green than on the fairway. It's not different if he marked his ball or didn't mark his ball. What other penalty could there have been? I rather expect that he would agree, if you could ask him.

And I don't see any reason for different rules for pros vs. the rest of us. I can envision them getting the privilege of playing a dead ball someday, perhaps. Which would actually probably be bad news for the rest of us, since it might stop the ball companies innovating. But it might be the only way to keep them from obsoleting every golf course there is.

On the subject of leaderboards.... they are not "official". They are almost always accurate, of course, but the scorecard has the real score on it.

As far as the rules being bigger than the game, I don't see that at all. Read them sometime, they are not as "complicated" as some want to think. The most complicated (probably because they don't come up as much, so we don't know them as well) involve playing a wrong ball, of from a wrong place. The rules for OB, hazards, GUR, obstructions, and the like are not that hard to understand. There always going to be a case (sometimes contrived to the point of being ridiculous) where they might seem contradictory, but for almost every stroke there is no rules issue to worry about.

[j_moo]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1311835827' post='3430582']
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311819642' post='3430258']
Ever play on a course while they are aerating? Think that's normal golf? I think rules say you don't get relieve from those.

[/quote]

[color="#474747"][size="2"][color="#474747"]d. Aeration Holes[/color]

[color="#474747"]When a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url] has been aerated, a Local Rule permitting relief, without penalty, from an aeration hole may be warranted. The following Local Rule is recommended:[/color]

[color="#474747"]"[url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]Through the green[/i][/url], a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be lifted without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"]course[/url] [/i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url].[/color]

[color="#474747"]On the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i]putting green[/i][/url], a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url] that avoids the situation.[/color]

[/size][/color]
[/quote]


It's not so much the hole my ball is sitting in but all the holes between the ball and the cup. I've had 15 foot eagle putts go astray because of those. Imagine that on the PGA. Phil lines up the putt, oh it misses by a mile because of the bouncing action. Oh wait, that birdie is no gimmie either. Oops, a bit hard on that one trying to take the holes out of play. Well, that's a shame, 4 putt bogie from 15 feet.

[j_moo]

The leaderboard is not official and it can be wrong. That's great!

So we really shouldn't applaud Darren Clarke walking down the 18th at the Open because the board is not official? Or player celebrations on the 18th should stop because they might find out 10 minutes later they didn't really win. I'm for suspense but really? Imagine that in any other sport. We know the scoreboard says the home team won but everyone please stay in your seats so we can review all the plays according to our charts to make sure it really did win.

Why isn't it official, the PGA with millions in purses every week can't afford a few more scorers? Or is score keeping so difficult only a few are qualify to do it? Was Jack right that it is more difficult to be a rules official than to be a lawyer? Thousands become lawyers every year, we don't have enough to walk with every group in every tournament?

[Rockfish]

[quote name='jlbos83' timestamp='1311841774' post='3430629']
Well, my opinions...
The penalty in the original post wasn't too harsh. He should have known the rule, or known to ask. It's not ambiguous, or complicated. It's not a different rule on the green than on the fairway. It's not different if he marked his ball or didn't mark his ball. What other penalty could there have been? I rather expect that he would agree, if you could ask him.[/quote]

The penalty is like getting your car confiscated for a parking ticket.

What other penalty ? How about 1 stroke ? After all he could have moved the ball a couple of inches with 1 stroke, no ?

1 stroke would have been FAIR. And aren't the rules about being fair ?


[quote]And I don't see any reason for different rules for pros vs. the rest of us.[/quote]

Agreed.


[quote]On the subject of leaderboards.... they are not "official". They are almost always accurate, of course, but the scorecard has the real score on it. [/quote]

Agreed.

But for a (professional) player signing a wrong scorecard being DQ'd ? No way. Golf is the ONLY sport I can think of where the player is responsible for keeping score. There is a scorer with EVERY group. After each hole the players and scorer should talk to one another and verify the score the player made on the hole, including any penalty strokes of course, and the SCORER should keep the official score.

The players should, of course, ALSO keep their own score and, at the end of the round verify with the OFFICIAL scorer for their own sake.


[quote]As far as the rules being bigger than the game, I don't see that at all. Read them sometime, they are not as "complicated" as some want to think. The most complicated (probably because they don't come up as much, so we don't know them as well) involve playing a wrong ball, of from a wrong place. The rules for OB, hazards, GUR, obstructions, and the like are not that hard to understand. There always going to be a case (sometimes contrived to the point of being ridiculous) where they might seem contradictory, but for almost every stroke there is no rules issue to worry about.
[/quote]

You're kidding, right ?

Is there any other game where the "decisions", i.e. questions and answers/clarifications on the rules, are as much larger than the rules book itself ???

[jlbos83]

For practical purposes, what rule can you make about aeration holes? You can choose not to play, or take what you get. It's still a level playing field on the day. Or have a rule that says, if there are aeration holes, we'll just say you two putted?

As far as the leaderboard, we all know it IS right almost all of the time. There might be an error now and then, but it gets caught pretty quickly. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to something other than DQ for an incorrect score, since the real objective should be to get it right. And for a pro tourney, it should be possible. For a smaller tourney, without all the "witnesses", the scorecard is all there is, it has to be right. If it isn't, I don't know that there is any way to fairly deal with it other than a DQ.

[j_moo]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1311821325' post='3430335']
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311819642' post='3430258']
I'm still trying to get people to agree that pros and amateurs should have different rules. Like you said, people make up rules already, so why not make them official for your recreational players. Winter rules year round is a good suggestion I've heard. Move the ball if taking the swing is going to damage your club or hurt yourself. If you lost your ball in the rough where it's reasonable for you to find, drop with no penalty.
[/quote]

It's been evident for some time that you want people to endorse easier rules for you. Ostensibly because your course conditions frustrate you.

I'd suggest you simply get used to higher scores. Or make up your own game that gives you relief from everything you don't like.
[/quote]


I thought we are having a discussion. It's just agreement if we all are on the same side.

The outcome of this discussion probably won't change how any of us play the game so please don't infer anything personal like what I want. You can't know what I want from just a few anonymous sentences in a forum. I could be just making things up to drive interest. For all you know, I don't even play golf.

All I'm saying is pros and recreational players already play under different rules (Not the rules of golf but rules as in conditions and options. Like the super rich live under different rules from the rest of the population). Why not just recognize it and separate? Other sports do.

Courses do not DQ you for not being on time for your tee time. Who here plays with a caddie? Throws out a new ProV after a couple of holes? Have manufacturers at their beck and call to make special equipment for them?

[j_moo]

[quote name='jlbos83' timestamp='1311873926' post='3431641']
For practical purposes, what rule can you make about aeration holes? You can choose not to play, or take what you get. It's still a level playing field on the day. Or have a rule that says, if there are aeration holes, we'll just say you two putted?

As far as the leaderboard, we all know it IS right almost all of the time. There might be an error now and then, but it gets caught pretty quickly. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to something other than DQ for an incorrect score, since the real objective should be to get it right. And for a pro tourney, it should be possible. For a smaller tourney, without all the "witnesses", the scorecard is all there is, it has to be right. If it isn't, I don't know that there is any way to fairly deal with it other than a DQ.
[/quote]


That's what they do for temporary greens. Aren't aerated greens temporary?

You're saying because people can't figure out who made the mistake, they should be DQed? 2 wrongs don't make a right.

[jlbos83]

[quote name='Rockfish' timestamp='1311873642' post='3431630']
[quote name='jlbos83' timestamp='1311841774' post='3430629']
Well, my opinions...
The penalty in the original post wasn't too harsh. He should have known the rule, or known to ask. It's not ambiguous, or complicated. It's not a different rule on the green than on the fairway. It's not different if he marked his ball or didn't mark his ball. What other penalty could there have been? I rather expect that he would agree, if you could ask him.[/quote]

The penalty is like getting your car confiscated for a parking ticket.

What other penalty ? How about 1 stroke ? After all he could have moved the ball a couple of inches with 1 stroke, no ?

1 stroke would have been FAIR. And aren't the rules about being fair ?
[/quote]
To me, at least, the slope is too slippery. You can't move your ball, and play it from the wrong place, and not correct it. Do you want to add a distance test to that? It was really unfortunate, but it was a consistent application of the rule. But let's say it was on a British open green, and it rolled 50 feet off the green, and he didn't know the rule, and put it back where it started? Are you going to try to differentiate? We are just going to disagree on this.
[quote]
[quote]As far as the rules being bigger than the game, I don't see that at all. Read them sometime, they are not as "complicated" as some want to think. The most complicated (probably because they don't come up as much, so we don't know them as well) involve playing a wrong ball, of from a wrong place. The rules for OB, hazards, GUR, obstructions, and the like are not that hard to understand. There always going to be a case (sometimes contrived to the point of being ridiculous) where they might seem contradictory, but for almost every stroke there is no rules issue to worry about.
[/quote]

You're kidding, right ?

Is there any other game whether the "decisions", i.e. questions and answers/clarifications on the rules, are as much larger than the rules book itself ???
[/quote]

Not kidding in the least. The decisions just help show how to apply the rules. Since the players have to enforce the rules themselves, they provide the guidance to show us how. If we were umpires or referees in other sports, we would get a ton of training on how to apply the rules in those sports. I expect the difference in golf to another sport isn't that great, but in golf every player is responsible, rather than "only" the officials.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311873015' post='3431600']
The leaderboard is not official and it can be wrong. That's great!

Why isn't it official, the PGA with millions in purses every week can't afford a few more scorers? Or is score keeping so difficult only a few are qualify to do it? [/quote]

IMO there's a good reason that it isn't offical, and it doens't have to do with affording scorers. It's fundamentally based on the fact that the player is expected to play honorably, which is something that I particularly enjoy about our game. To determine someone's true score, you pretty much have to be that person: An official would rarely be able to tell if a player bumped the ball a quarter of an inch while addressing it, but the player almost always can. Sometimes it's your intention that defines whether you technically made a stroke or not -- the player himself is the only one who really knows. Same for double hits. If we change all that to having a walk-along official decide what the player's score is, the dymamics of the game could easily change to that of basketball, baseball or football where part of the game is getting away with things the offical doesn't notice.


Asking players to play honestly is cool. Holding them to a high standard in reporting their scores is cool.
I like it as it is, and though I acknowledge that DQs may have changed who would have won a golf tournament on occasion, it is really, really rarely a problem that on Sunday the leaderboard is misleading people.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311874197' post='3431656']
You can't know what I want from just a few anonymous sentences in a forum. I could be just making things up to drive interest. For all you know, I don't even play golf.

[/quote]

Now I understand. I was mistakenly taking you seriously.

[jlbos83]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1311874491' post='3431671']
[quote name='jlbos83' timestamp='1311873926' post='3431641']
For practical purposes, what rule can you make about aeration holes? You can choose not to play, or take what you get. It's still a level playing field on the day. Or have a rule that says, if there are aeration holes, we'll just say you two putted?

As far as the leaderboard, we all know it IS right almost all of the time. There might be an error now and then, but it gets caught pretty quickly. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to something other than DQ for an incorrect score, since the real objective should be to get it right. And for a pro tourney, it should be possible. For a smaller tourney, without all the "witnesses", the scorecard is all there is, it has to be right. If it isn't, I don't know that there is any way to fairly deal with it other than a DQ.
[/quote]


That's what they do for temporary greens. Aren't aerated greens temporary?

You're saying because people can't figure out who made the mistake, they should be DQed? 2 wrongs don't make a right.
[/quote]

You could make that argurment about aerated greens, though I would say that temporary greens are usually a lot smaller, and two putts isn't a a bad compromise. Assuming you'll two putt from anywhere on an aerated green is pretty optimistic. Again, the course is the same for everyone that day, maybe you won't shoot what you did last week, but it is still "fair". To extend things a bit.... after a nice rain, no wind, nice soft greens, you'll shoot one score. In a stiff wind, with hard greens, you'll shoot another score. Should we make rules to fix that? I know it is absurd, but the guiding principle in golf, forever, as been to play the course as you find it, and the ball as it lies. There are exceptions in the rules for a limited number of conditions, but even those are aimed at making the playing field level at any particular moment.

As far as the DQ, I'm not saying there's a DQ if you can't figure out who made the mistake. I'm saying that if a player turns in a card, after checking it, that is proven to be lower than what he shot, a DQ might not be inapporpriate. In some ways it may be a deterrent type of penalty. We all know there are people that will cheat. If the worst thing that would happen if you got caught shaving a stroke or two was correcting the score, or adding one or two, it might be worth the chance to some. Whereas if you know if you get caught, you are out, maybe not. No idea if that's the thinking behind it or not, but I could see it.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Rockfish' timestamp='1311873642' post='3431630']
What other penalty ? How about 1 stroke ? After all he could have moved the ball a couple of inches with 1 stroke, no ?
[/quote]

If my ball's in the bush, and I don't like the prospects of being behind the bush...then I'd forget about taking an unplayable lie penalty altogether. Just move the ball to the left of the bush...just move it a few inches or a couple feet...hit my shot...add your one stroke proposed penalty...and move on my merry way.