Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314812974' post='3532276']
do you think the no1 player in the world didnt know how to fade it ?

[i]"i tried all the conventional cures" ...[b]"they all worked"[/b] ..."but in the process they cut down my distance"[/i]
[/quote]

So You still didn't watch that interview?

"If there was dogleg from left to right I just couldn't play that..."

[JOEGOLFWRX]

i know the interview, he is talking about just before he switched to his fade, but he worked on a [b]long fade[/b] for years in practice while gaming the push draw which intermittently hooked, which became an overdraw with over rightward aim compensation.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314817763' post='3532446']
i know the interview, he is talking about just before he switched to his fade, but he worked on a [b]long fade[/b] for years in practice while gaming the push draw which intermittently hooked, which became an overdraw with over rightward aim compensation.
[/quote]

So why he didn't play that shorter fade on those places where needed?

If I watch videos of pre- and post secret, I can find one markable difference of using hands and arms. Grip change was needed to get it done and it's kind of chain of happenings following each other. Actions in arms and wrists.

But thats enough for me for a while. Have fun.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

well he did when it was needed, but in the end he was so overcompensated he didn't know which way was up.

and here's the kicker it wasnt [b][i]needed[/i][/b] pre secret, despite what was preached about the tour by dariusz, ..[i](who by the way im guessing is one of your good members who has stopped writing because of my awful behavior, lol, ..even though he is actually banned for repeatedly attacking stack and tilt sponsors)[/i]

hogan mopped up money in the open fairways, hooked his way to number one, a big sponsors bombers tour.

he wanted the open, thats why he craved the fade, but not any fade the long fade, the one that would still dominate the rest of the year. but i guess thats not in the youtube clip i didnt listen too, ..again, lol.

[drewspin]

Hogan told Life about his cupped left wrist at the top, but he didn't explain where he took that cup OUT and how it transitioned the left wrist from a cup into a bowed left wrist (palmar flexion) through impact.

Well, he carried that cupped wrist down to the bottom of the elevator, then when the hands were in front of the right thigh he moved into supination SO FAST... that there are hardly any pictures of it, and it is barely visible on any video footage.

But, there are a couple pictures that show it, and Jules Alexander took one of them and caught it in this frame right here:

[attachment=850605:supinate.jpg]

A split second before this, his left wrist is still cupped and a split second after, he is in palmar flexion heading into impact... but for a brief, very brief moment, he supinates.

I also believe Hogan did something with his hands in transition that John Schlee describes in his Maximum Golf video.

[dap]

So many secrets.

I propose we vote.

Who here has figured out Hogan's secret spot on?lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314847609' post='3533620']
So many secrets.

I propose we vote.

Who here has figured out Hogan's secret spot on?lol
[/quote]

I vote for Ben Hogan! Lol... Dammit why can't everybody believe him in that 55 Life Mag article... Too simple? (In itself that is...lol) or if you say secret is something rarely or never discussed before (especially never by Hogan) it will "boost" your teaching career?.... Lol

[Lefthook]

I guess we're all hoping for a secret to appear so that we can all become Hogan great ball strikers in spite of our highly variable talents.

I've heard that Usain Bolt had a secret too that he used to crush the competition and set sensational world records on the 100m and 200m sprint. He runs with the same frequency as his competitors but he takes longer steps. Sounds easy, doesn't it?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314830071' post='3532911']
well he did when it was needed, but in the end he was so overcompensated he didn't know which way was up.

and here's the kicker it wasnt [b][i]needed[/i][/b] pre secret, despite what was preached about the tour by dariusz, ..[i](who by the way im guessing is one of your good members who has stopped writing because of my awful behavior, lol, ..even though he is actually banned for repeatedly attacking stack and tilt sponsors)[/i]

hogan mopped up money in the open fairways, hooked his way to number one, a big sponsors bombers tour.

he wanted the open, thats why he craved the fade, but not any fade the long fade, the one that would still dominate the rest of the year. but i guess thats not in the youtube clip i didnt listen too, ..again, lol.
[/quote]

Have to say You're funny guy. Often so wrong, but never with doubt

[dap]

I miss Dariusz,bring him back WRX!

[dap]

Seeing as everyone and their dog have a Hogan secret,here is mine.

"Whenever I am working on something
I always do it in slow motion."
Ben Hogan

....and now the accompanying expensive training device.I do Paypal. http://thesolarsweetspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYH_YdEZJZI

ROFL

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314841451' post='3533373']
Hogan told Life about his cupped left wrist at the top, but he didn't explain where he took that cup OUT and how it transitioned the left wrist from a cup into a bowed left wrist (palmar flexion) through impact.

Well, he carried that cupped wrist down to the bottom of the elevator, then when the hands were in front of the right thigh he moved into supination SO FAST... that there are hardly any pictures of it, and it is barely visible on any video footage.

But, there are a couple pictures that show it, and Jules Alexander took one of them and caught it in this frame right here:

[attachment=850605:supinate.jpg]

A split second before this, his left wrist is still cupped and a split second after, he is in palmar flexion heading into impact... but for a brief, very brief moment, he supinates.

I also believe Hogan did something with his hands in transition that John Schlee describes in his Maximum Golf video.
[/quote]

What did Schlee describe with the hands? The right thumb and index finger pulling back and down?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314851324' post='3533750']
I miss Dariusz,bring him back WRX!
[/quote]

I never understood Dariusz's swing beliefs on Hogan and his swing. Can you explain it in a nutshell Dap?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314848875' post='3533672']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314847609' post='3533620']
So many secrets.

I propose we vote.

Who here has figured out Hogan's secret spot on?lol
[/quote]

I vote for Ben Hogan! Lol... Dammit why can't everybody believe him in that 55 Life Mag article... Too simple? (In itself that is...lol) or if you say secret is something rarely or never discussed before (especially never by Hogan) it will "boost" your teaching career?.... Lol
[/quote]

^ This

Altough along the lines of this thread, I used to do a drill where I'd intentionally open the clubface after impact. I you want to "feel what Hogan felt" I think this is a good drill, as long as you can hit a straight shot doing it. Only took me one bucket of balls to get to hitting it straight. Your chest and shoulders will have to feel very open at impact to hit it straight. It will feel very much like some of the things Hogan described, IMO, like the sidearm throw with a tight/pitch right elbow and the 2 handed basketball pass.

[ej002]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314841451' post='3533373']
But, there are a couple pictures that show it, and Jules Alexander took one of them and caught it in this frame right here:

[attachment=850605:supinate.jpg]

A split second before this, his left wrist is still cupped and a split second after, he is in palmar flexion heading into impact... but for a brief, very brief moment, he supinates.

I also believe Hogan did something with his hands in transition that John Schlee describes in his Maximum Golf video.
[/quote]

I think he can get from open to closed with left wrist in a nanosecond, WITHOUT actively firing his wrists. He is doing something else that puts force on the face to close. The wrist action is a result. Such a powerful move that with the fade, he had to fight it off/delay it.


[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314888147' post='3534470']
Altough along the lines of this thread, [b]I used to do a drill where I'd intentionally open the clubface after impact. [/b]I you want to "feel what Hogan felt" I think this is a good drill, as long as you can hit a straight shot doing it. Only took me one bucket of balls to get to hitting it straight. Your chest and shoulders will have to feel very open at impact to hit it straight. It will feel very much like some of the things Hogan described, IMO, like the sidearm throw with a tight/pitch right elbow and the 2 handed basketball pass.
[/quote]

Can you describe it a little bit more, it is like a "vertical hinge" move? Did you consciously begin the move prior to impact, or was it solely after impact?

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314850847' post='3533741']
Have to say You're funny guy. Often so wrong, but never with doubt
[/quote]

i thought i doubted too much, make up your mind T, lol.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314841451' post='3533373']
Hogan told Life about his cupped left wrist at the top, but he didn't explain where he took that cup OUT and how it transitioned the left wrist from a cup into a bowed left wrist (palmar flexion) through impact.

Well, he carried that cupped wrist down to the bottom of the elevator, then when the hands were in front of the right thigh he moved into supination SO FAST... that there are hardly any pictures of it, and it is barely visible on any video footage.

But, there are a couple pictures that show it, and Jules Alexander took one of them and caught it in this frame right here:

[attachment=850605:supinate.jpg]

A split second before this, his left wrist is still cupped and a split second after, he is in palmar flexion heading into impact... but for a brief, very brief moment, he supinates.

I also believe Hogan did something with his hands in transition that John Schlee describes in his Maximum Golf video.
[/quote]

Great pic! This move from cupped to raised is on pg 102 in 5L, as I'm sure everyone here knows. In the book, The Venturi Analysis, there is a Hogan driver sequence which shows the move happening before that. Maybe he did it earlier and more gradually for wood clubs?

[drewspin]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1314892903' post='3534736']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314841451' post='3533373']
Hogan told Life about his cupped left wrist at the top, but he didn't explain where he took that cup OUT and how it transitioned the left wrist from a cup into a bowed left wrist (palmar flexion) through impact.

Well, he carried that cupped wrist down to the bottom of the elevator, then when the hands were in front of the right thigh he moved into supination SO FAST... that there are hardly any pictures of it, and it is barely visible on any video footage.

But, there are a couple pictures that show it, and Jules Alexander took one of them and caught it in this frame right here:

[attachment=850605:supinate.jpg]

A split second before this, his left wrist is still cupped and a split second after, he is in palmar flexion heading into impact... but for a brief, very brief moment, he supinates.

I also believe Hogan did something with his hands in transition that John Schlee describes in his Maximum Golf video.
[/quote]

Great pic! This move from cupped to raised is on pg 102 in 5L, as I'm sure everyone here knows. In the book, The Venturi Analysis, there is a Hogan driver sequence which shows the move happening before that. Maybe he did it earlier and more gradually for wood clubs?
[/quote]

The thing I see Hogan doing (on fade swings), in fact, is not a really a "gradual supination" as described in the text and as Ravielli illustrated in the famous drawing, its a very quick, lightning fast, move from the cupped (dorsiflexion) to bowed (palmar flexion) left wrist with a supination in between.

In the other series I have with the driver it is apparent in the same place and equally as fast. I am working on that group of images and hope to have something ready soon.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314888147' post='3534470']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314848875' post='3533672']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314847609' post='3533620']
So many secrets.

I propose we vote.

Who here has figured out Hogan's secret spot on?lol
[/quote]

I vote for Ben Hogan! Lol... Dammit why can't everybody believe him in that 55 Life Mag article... Too simple? (In itself that is...lol) or if you say secret is something rarely or never discussed before (especially never by Hogan) it will "boost" your teaching career?.... Lol
[/quote]

^ This

Altough along the lines of this thread, I used to do a drill where I'd intentionally open the clubface after impact. I you want to "feel what Hogan felt" I think this is a good drill, as long as you can hit a straight shot doing it. Only took me one bucket of balls to get to hitting it straight. Your chest and shoulders will have to feel very open at impact to hit it straight. It will feel very much like some of the things Hogan described, IMO, like the sidearm throw with a tight/pitch right elbow and the 2 handed basketball pass.
[/quote]

Feels like scooping or flipping the ball with your left hand as fast as you can with pivot as fast as you can? Can't do it without cupping and relatively low bs.

[ej002]

As to the pic of Hogan, I think it happens with the longer stuff because the pivot is harder and faster. He is not going full out with the shorter irons. Plus physics is stronger the longer the club, lever, radius - whatever the technical term is.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314894157' post='3534812']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314888147' post='3534470']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314848875' post='3533672']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314847609' post='3533620']
So many secrets.

I propose we vote.

Who here has figured out Hogan's secret spot on?lol
[/quote]

I vote for Ben Hogan! Lol... Dammit why can't everybody believe him in that 55 Life Mag article... Too simple? (In itself that is...lol) or if you say secret is something rarely or never discussed before (especially never by Hogan) it will "boost" your teaching career?.... Lol
[/quote]

^ This

Altough along the lines of this thread, I used to do a drill where I'd intentionally open the clubface after impact. I you want to "feel what Hogan felt" I think this is a good drill, as long as you can hit a straight shot doing it. Only took me one bucket of balls to get to hitting it straight. Your chest and shoulders will have to feel very open at impact to hit it straight. It will feel very much like some of the things Hogan described, IMO, like the sidearm throw with a tight/pitch right elbow and the 2 handed basketball pass.
[/quote]

Feels like scooping or flipping the ball with your left hand as fast as you can with pivot as fast as you can? Can't do it without cupping and relatively low bs.
[/quote]

I don't like the terms "scooping or flipping" but I do feel what Schlee talked about when he said Hogan described "capturing the ball with the clubface" instead of hitting it. The basketball pass is keeping the arms in sync with the torso, the sidearm throw is pitch elbow. This drill helps to feel those as well as what Schlee described, IMO. It is very different than what most players have ever felt before and it's only going to work for someone who already has a pretty good swing, IMO. The key is getting to a point where you can consistently hit it straight with this drill, that's when you'll achieve those feels. Someone who's a chronic slicer will really struggle with this.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314897002' post='3534965']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314894157' post='3534812']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314888147' post='3534470']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314848875' post='3533672']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314847609' post='3533620']
So many secrets.

I propose we vote.

Who here has figured out Hogan's secret spot on?lol
[/quote]

I vote for Ben Hogan! Lol... Dammit why can't everybody believe him in that 55 Life Mag article... Too simple? (In itself that is...lol) or if you say secret is something rarely or never discussed before (especially never by Hogan) it will "boost" your teaching career?.... Lol
[/quote]

^ This

Altough along the lines of this thread, I used to do a drill where I'd intentionally open the clubface after impact. I you want to "feel what Hogan felt" I think this is a good drill, as long as you can hit a straight shot doing it. Only took me one bucket of balls to get to hitting it straight. Your chest and shoulders will have to feel very open at impact to hit it straight. It will feel very much like some of the things Hogan described, IMO, like the sidearm throw with a tight/pitch right elbow and the 2 handed basketball pass.
[/quote]

Feels like scooping or flipping the ball with your left hand as fast as you can with pivot as fast as you can? Can't do it without cupping and relatively low bs.
[/quote]

I don't like the terms "scooping or flipping" but I do feel what Schlee talked about when he said Hogan described "capturing the ball with the clubface" instead of hitting it. The basketball pass is keeping the arms in sync with the torso, the sidearm throw is pitch elbow. This drill helps to feel those as well as what Schlee described, IMO. It is very different than what most players have ever felt before and it's only going to work for someone who already has a pretty good swing, IMO. The key is getting to a point where you can consistently hit it straight with this drill, that's when you'll achieve those feels. Someone who's a chronic slicer will really struggle with this.
[/quote]

Schlee said just opposite. Cover the ball with club face and feel like You are sweeping the floor with Your right palm.

And that's the reason player have to have really open arms triangle, because otherwise his faaaaarrr left. With terrible hook included.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314894147' post='3534811']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1314892903' post='3534736']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314841451' post='3533373']
Hogan told Life about his cupped left wrist at the top, but he didn't explain where he took that cup OUT and how it transitioned the left wrist from a cup into a bowed left wrist (palmar flexion) through impact.

Well, he carried that cupped wrist down to the bottom of the elevator, then when the hands were in front of the right thigh he moved into supination SO FAST... that there are hardly any pictures of it, and it is barely visible on any video footage.

But, there are a couple pictures that show it, and Jules Alexander took one of them and caught it in this frame right here:

[attachment=850605:supinate.jpg]

A split second before this, his left wrist is still cupped and a split second after, he is in palmar flexion heading into impact... but for a brief, very brief moment, he supinates.

I also believe Hogan did something with his hands in transition that John Schlee describes in his Maximum Golf video.
[/quote]

Great pic! This move from cupped to raised is on pg 102 in 5L, as I'm sure everyone here knows. In the book, The Venturi Analysis, there is a Hogan driver sequence which shows the move happening before that. Maybe he did it earlier and more gradually for wood clubs?
[/quote]

The thing I see Hogan doing (on fade swings), in fact, is not a really a "gradual supination" as described in the text and as Ravielli illustrated in the famous drawing, its a very quick, lightning fast, move from the cupped (dorsiflexion) to bowed (palmar flexion) left wrist with a supination in between.

In the other series I have with the driver it is apparent in the same place and equally as fast. I am working on that group of images and hope to have something ready soon.
[/quote]

I look forward to seeing those! I've had some success doing it gradually, but maybe the real deal is to do it fast.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314898171' post='3535018']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314897002' post='3534965']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314894157' post='3534812']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314888147' post='3534470']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314848875' post='3533672']
I vote for Ben Hogan! Lol... Dammit why can't everybody believe him in that 55 Life Mag article... Too simple? (In itself that is...lol) or if you say secret is something rarely or never discussed before (especially never by Hogan) it will "boost" your teaching career?.... Lol
[/quote]

^ This

Altough along the lines of this thread, I used to do a drill where I'd intentionally open the clubface after impact. I you want to "feel what Hogan felt" I think this is a good drill, as long as you can hit a straight shot doing it. Only took me one bucket of balls to get to hitting it straight. Your chest and shoulders will have to feel very open at impact to hit it straight. It will feel very much like some of the things Hogan described, IMO, like the sidearm throw with a tight/pitch right elbow and the 2 handed basketball pass.
[/quote]

Feels like scooping or flipping the ball with your left hand as fast as you can with pivot as fast as you can? Can't do it without cupping and relatively low bs.
[/quote]

I don't like the terms "scooping or flipping" but I do feel what Schlee talked about when he said Hogan described "capturing the ball with the clubface" instead of hitting it. The basketball pass is keeping the arms in sync with the torso, the sidearm throw is pitch elbow. This drill helps to feel those as well as what Schlee described, IMO. It is very different than what most players have ever felt before and it's only going to work for someone who already has a pretty good swing, IMO. The key is getting to a point where you can consistently hit it straight with this drill, that's when you'll achieve those feels. Someone who's a chronic slicer will really struggle with this.
[/quote]

Schlee said just opposite. Cover the ball with club face and feel like You are sweeping the floor with Your right palm.

And that's the reason player have to have really open arms triangle, because otherwise his faaaaarrr left. With terrible hook included.
[/quote]

I was only referring to the feel of "capturing the ball on the clubface." When I do this drill, that feeling is there, as if the ball stays on the face longer. I think though that you've misinterpreted Schlee's feel of wiping the ground with the palm of the hand. You can do that without turning the hand over. It's really the same as just keeping maximum right wrist dorsi-flexion through impact. I find that's a very useful thing to work on as well.

[ej002]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314902170' post='3535200']
I was only referring to the feel of "capturing the ball on the clubface." When I do this drill, that feeling is there, as if the ball stays on the face longer. I think though that you've misinterpreted Schlee's feel of wiping the ground with the palm of the hand. You can do that without turning the hand over. It's really the same as just keeping maximum right wrist dorsi-flexion through impact. I find that's a very useful thing to work on as well.
[/quote]

In your opinion - does the "capture the golf ball feel" / ball staying on the face longer, feel like a slap shot, almost like the ball is sliding off or being flug off the face?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1314902618' post='3535211']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314902170' post='3535200']
I was only referring to the feel of "capturing the ball on the clubface." When I do this drill, that feeling is there, as if the ball stays on the face longer. I think though that you've misinterpreted Schlee's feel of wiping the ground with the palm of the hand. You can do that without turning the hand over. It's really the same as just keeping maximum right wrist dorsi-flexion through impact. I find that's a very useful thing to work on as well.
[/quote]

In your opinion - does the "capture the golf ball feel" / ball staying on the face longer, feel like a slap shot, almost like the ball is sliding off or [b]being flung off the face[/b]?
[/quote]

This (bolded). Kind of like the no backswing drill where you attempt to fling the ball forward after you place it in contact with the ball from a standing stop position.

[DNice26]

I'm no Hogan expert, but I just jumped in this thread to see what the big deal is...... oddly enough, I'm a dirty hooker myself. On the first page, I noticed someone make mention of the right elbow when comparing Hogan's own swings in time. I recently discovered this right elbow move of the driving range about two weeks ago. I was reviewing video of my swing and I noticed my right elbow was flying a bit, so I decided to try tucking it and exagerating the move down through the shot....wow.....it felt great and the ball was going dead straight. On my second round of golf after trying this move, I $hit you not I shot a life long best 4 under 68. I usually shoot 2 over (74).

I wouldn't be surprised if the right elbow plays a key role in Hogan's "secret". If you get the right elbow in the right position on the way down to the ball, it feels like the club face just wants to stare down the target for a longer period of time. I noticed that when I was doing it correctly, I felt a rather exagerated move where the clubface stayed square to the target much longer than usual.

[Arafel]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314902913' post='3535228']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1314902618' post='3535211']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314902170' post='3535200']
I was only referring to the feel of "capturing the ball on the clubface." When I do this drill, that feeling is there, as if the ball stays on the face longer. I think though that you've misinterpreted Schlee's feel of wiping the ground with the palm of the hand. You can do that without turning the hand over. It's really the same as just keeping maximum right wrist dorsi-flexion through impact. I find that's a very useful thing to work on as well.
[/quote]

In your opinion - does the "capture the golf ball feel" / ball staying on the face longer, feel like a slap shot, almost like the ball is sliding off or [b]being flung off the face[/b]?
[/quote]

This (bolded). Kind of like the no backswing drill where you attempt to fling the ball forward after you place it in contact with the ball from a standing stop position.
[/quote]

Flung off of the face is exactly how it feels for me too. After impact my extension/arms just glide/float to the top of my swing without the feel of any force being applied on my part at all. To me that's how Hogan's swing looks too. After impact his arms and hands look very passive to the top.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='DNice26' timestamp='1314904147' post='3535280']
I'm no Hogan expert, but I just jumped in this thread to see what the big deal is...... oddly enough, I'm a dirty hooker myself. On the first page, I noticed someone make mention of the right elbow when comparing Hogan's own swings in time. I recently discovered this right elbow move of the driving range about two weeks ago. I was reviewing video of my swing and I noticed my right elbow was flying a bit, so I decided to try tucking it and exagerating the move down through the shot....wow.....it felt great and the ball was going dead straight. On my second round of golf after trying this move, I $hit you not I shot a life long best 4 under 68. I usually shoot 2 over (74).

I wouldn't be surprised if the right elbow plays a key role in Hogan's "secret". If you get the right elbow in the right position on the way down to the ball, it feels like the club face just wants to stare down the target for a longer period of time. I noticed that when I was doing it correctly, I felt a rather exagerated move where the clubface stayed square to the target much longer than usual.
[/quote]

You have seen the light. Now You got simple way to continue. If the ball goes left, keep that elbow more in and longer. If it goes right, rotate quicker. All the time just try to add both of those until You reach Your own limits.

[golfbulldog1]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLIxRTcPFQ"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0SLIxRTcPFQ[/url]