I've taken more from Golf than I've given back, and I intend to change that...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348145476' post='5667479']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1348092107' post='5665139']
The 'internets' is funny like that. You go on it to share ideas, but in the end there's always someone out there to strip you of your very own idea.
[/quote]

There's a book called "Steal Like an Artist" - we are so far removed from originality at this juncture in our civilization that it's hard to take ownership of any idea. Even the best teachers use material from those that came before them, it's human nature. Ben Hogan fashioned a swing by studying the greats in his father in law's movie theater - it doesn't take away from the feat, but it does give you some insight into how this whole building a swing thing works.
[/quote]

Nobody has an original idea on the golf swing. Even those who are indeed original (meaning unprecedented) and claims its Hogan clearly goes against what Hogan said...lol

[guisician]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348145476' post='5667479']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1348092107' post='5665139']
The 'internets' is funny like that. You go on it to share ideas, but in the end there's always someone out there to strip you of your very own idea.
[/quote]

There's a book called "Steal Like an Artist" - we are so far removed from originality at this juncture in our civilization that it's hard to take ownership of any idea. Even the best teachers use material from those that came before them, it's human nature. Ben Hogan fashioned a swing by studying the greats in his father in law's movie theater - it doesn't take away from the feat, but it does give you some insight into how this whole building a swing thing works.
[/quote]

It might be better to think in terms of 'creativity' rather than 'originality' here. You know, the combining of elements already present in new & interesting ways; infinite possibilities, like DNA. Enjoy the paradox; even though there's nothing new, there'll ALWAYS be something new!

It's certainly the right of a golf instructor, songwriter or computer programmer to seek compensation for their creative output...or not, their choice.

[ajc57]

[quote name='guisician' timestamp='1348203854' post='5672219']

It might be better to think in terms of 'creativity' rather than 'originality' here. You know, the combining of elements already present in new & interesting ways; infinite possibilities, like DNA. Enjoy the paradox; even though there's nothing new, there'll ALWAYS be something new!

It's certainly the right of a golf instructor, songwriter or computer programmer to seek compensation for their creative output...or not, their choice.
[/quote]

Absolutely, it's a form of self-expression and a rewarding one at that.

One thing tho- somewhere between how far dspin can piss and everyone weighing in, my message keeps getting lost. I'm not saying one shouldn't be compensated for his/her work.

I'm an application programmer and [i]of course I get paid for my time[/i]. But I'm not talking about that, the same way I'm not talking about an instructor helping someone out free of charge. Just like if I program for you, I'm going to charge you for my time - everyone's free to charge for their time what the demand for that time will give them. I'm talking about taking a theory, concept and trying to keep people from talking about it or using it to improve. Trying to own swing "secrets" would be like me claiming ownership of some framework, or a data structure in developer world, makes no sense and it doesn't make sense in this context either. If I go to a developer forum they're going to discuss things from a code perspective and from business side perspective, all in an effort to help make my job easier and to encourage other people to take up programming - it benefits everyone. Think Linux, vs Microsoft.

[drewspin]

ajc,

Not sure why you are making this about me... you're the only one in this thread who is claiming that people are trying to "own" golf swing, and then you are refuting your own arguments.

Preceeding the sharing of information there is often a "deal" or an "agreement" in which conditions for disclosure or non-disclosure are arrived at and agreed upon, formally or informally.

Just like the agreement between Apple and Xerox in which Xerox invested $1million and Jobs had some access to the GUI that Xerox PARC had developed for the Alto, and just like the later agreement between Apple and Microsoft let MS use Mac OS technology in exchange for further development of Microsoft software for the Mac... there are often deals preceding the sharing of information.

So too, some instructors ask their students to not disclose things publicly about their methods... and some students choose to respect that as a condition of learning from that instructor. This allows the instructor to continue earning a living and put food on the table by not having their methods or drills (or whatever else they are wanting to keep private) made public.

Could one of Brad's drill series students take his videos and post them on youtube and would that help a lot of guys if I or someone else did that? Yes they could, and yes that would. It would be a big benefit.

Would I ever do that? Heck no... because there are some limits on sharing information that people have been asked to respect as part of the instructional bargain... that's all.

We're all here discussing the swing and other parts of golf instruction quite freely... so the fact that among all the discussions there are likely to be tips and hints and things shared privately that remain UNSAID in public is just that, a fact.

[ajc57]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348240280' post='5673623']
ajc,

Not sure why you are making this about me... you're the only one in this thread who is claiming that people are trying to "own" golf swing, and then you are refuting your own arguments.

Preceeding the sharing of information there is often a "deal" or an "agreement" in which conditions for disclosure or non-disclosure are arrived at and agreed upon, formally or informally.

Just like the agreement between Apple and Xerox in which Xerox invested $1million and Jobs had some access to the GUI that Xerox PARC had developed for the Alto, and just like the later agreement between Apple and Microsoft let MS use Mac OS technology in exchange for further development of Microsoft software for the Mac... there are often deals preceding the sharing of information.

So too, some instructors ask their students to not disclose things publicly about their methods... and some students choose to respect that as a condition of learning from that instructor. This allows the instructor to continue earning a living and put food on the table by not having their methods or drills (or whatever else they are wanting to keep private) made public.

Could one of Brad's drill series students take his videos and post them on youtube and would that help a lot of guys if I or someone else did that? Yes they could, and yes that would. It would be a big benefit.

Would I ever do that? Heck no... because there are some limits on sharing information that people have been asked to respect... that's all.

We're all here discussing the swing and other parts of golf instruction quite freely... so the fact that among all the discussions there are likely to be tips and hints and things shared privately that remain UNSAID in public is just that, a fact.
[/quote]

Yes, your goes the furthest - I know...all good.

[dairic]

While I think that these forums provide a great means for instructors to acquire new students by demonstrating their knowledge of the golf swing. I do agree that teaching methodology developed by an instructor should be shared by the terms defined by this instructor.

I too have purchased ABS module videos and I wouldn't share those without the explicit permission of J Erickson.

The first reason, as drewspin described, is based out of respect for the instructor who might have spent a lot of their time developing their teaching methodology.

The second reason, is that it's to everyones benefit to maintain an incentive structure in place that motivates people like bhughes to spend time at the keyboard to add first class content on these forums or for someone like J Erickson to maintain his ABS website.

So there is a paradox where if all information is shared freely, this may have the unintended consequences reducing the overall amount of quality information available for sharing. IMO

[ajc57]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1348247154' post='5674177']
While I think that these forums provide a great means for instructors to acquire new students by demonstrating their knowledge of the golf swing. I do agree that teaching methodology developed by an instructor should be shared by the terms defined by this instructor.

I too have purchased ABS module videos and I wouldn't share those without the explicit permission of J Erickson.

The first reason, as drewspin described, is based out of respect for the instructor who might have spent a lot of their time developing their teaching methodology.

The second reason, is that it's to everyones benefit to maintain an incentive structure in place that motivates people like bhughes to spend time at the keyboard to add first class content on these forums or for someone like J Erickson to maintain his ABS website.

So there is a paradox where if all information is shared freely, this may have the unintended consequences reducing the overall amount of quality information available for sharing. IMO
[/quote]

huh? Dairic, you've been turned!

Well as far as I'm concerned it's obvious that this whole "don't learn and tell" tangent is really just smoke and mirrors for the "Leave him alone, leave him dumb and alone" attitude that's prevalent in most golf forums and what I was referring to in the first place. If that wasn't the real intent, we wouldn't even know there was a "secret" to tell in the first place, would we now?

Hogan may have had that attitude while he was playing, but one, we're not on the tour, and two, Hogan did give away all his secrets - it's called "5 Lessons" and "Power Golf." People just get frustrated and blame it on his taking his secrets to the grave, but it's ALL there.

Only someone that's insecure about their own game would go around bragging about secrets in the first place...my only point. You wanna sign* a confidentiality agreement for a freekin golf lesson!? go for it lol, that's not what I'm talking about, it's much simpler than that. But this thread is in the butcher shop by now...I'm done

[drewspin]

What happened to this guy?

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1345736920' post='5521828']
[b]se·cret[/b]
[ skrət ]

[list=1]
[*]not widely known: known by only a few people and[b] intentionally withheld from general knowledge[/b]
[/list]
[indent=1][b]He had this, for sure. No way a man swing that many times, studies the swing his whole life, and doesn't have "secrets"[/b]

Still, I honestly don't think he kept the secrets for selfish reasons - he knew what most don't: that finding the "secrets" is a gift in itself...and i def agree-[b] I wouldn't take away that from someone even if I knew everything there was to know about the swing[/b].[b] it's like telling someone the end of a really, really good suspense movie lol[/b]
[/quote][/indent]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1345729541' post='5521074']
* * *
The secret is FAILURE - Hogan said and did so himself (the secret is in the dirt). If you fail at doing something enough times, you start to understand why it doesn't work.

* * *
When you know something that other's don't know, everyone wants a piece of you - but it's those types that usually don't want to put in the work - they want the instant gratification. There are many instances of Hogan mocking people that thought it was a simple as hearing it from the horses mouth and implementing it (Faldo). For someone like Mr. Hogan, that was an insult to his intillegence because he knew - you have to dig it out of the dirt, you can't teach someone how to do that...
[/quote]

[ajc57]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348257353' post='5674995']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1345736920' post='5521828']
[b]se·cret[/b]
[ skrət ]
[list=1]
[*]not widely known: known by only a few people and intentionally withheld from general knowledge
[/list]
[indent=1]He had this, for sure. No way a man swing that many times, studies the swing his whole life, and doesn't have "secrets"

Still, I honestly don't think he kept the secrets for selfish reasons - he knew what most don't: that finding the "secrets" is a gift in itself...and i def agree- I wouldn't take away that from someone even if I knew everything there was to know about the swing. it's like telling someone the end of a really, really good suspense movie lol
[/quote][/indent]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1345729541' post='5521074']
* * *
The secret is FAILURE - Hogan said and did so himself (the secret is in the dirt). If you fail at doing something enough times, you start to understand why it doesn't work.

* * *
When you know something that other's don't know, everyone wants a piece of you - but it's those types that usually don't want to put in the work - they want the instant gratification. There are many instances of Hogan mocking people that thought it was a simple as hearing it from the horses mouth and implementing it (Faldo). For someone like Mr. Hogan, that was an insult to his intillegence because he knew - you have to dig it out of the dirt, you can't teach someone how to do that...
[/quote]
[/quote]

You crushing on me ain't ya? lol

The reason I put "secrets" in quotes is that what you define as a secret is entirely up to you - that was the context of those posts. What you call a "secret" drew, is really just something you think you know that nobody else knows. Did Hogan know things we didn't? no #$%t lol

I can tell you everyone of his secrets right now, and it means nothing. I'd have to sit with you for HOURS and HOURS to try and get you to understand and feel what said "secret" is. Going around telling everyone that you "have a secret, but you're not telling" is lame...that was my point. Didn't name you, but I guess you felt the need to defend yourself so you came on and flamed the thread.

[drewspin]

I believe you. You've demonstrated your own definition of the Hogan secret is FAILURE, and you've got that nailed.

Bravo.

[Sean2]

I'm no instructor, I'm no pro, but I've taken lots of lessons and read lots of instructional book. I simply say BS. There ARE no secrets. If there were someone out there would be having a ton of students shooting lights out. There is no silver bullet. There is no magic pill.

Golf is hard. Period. Some stuff works. Some stuff doesn't. What works for one person may not work for another. There are swing methodologies that contradict one another. As far as "secrets" go? Permit me to doubt.

[ajc57]

After that discussion, I recorded this:
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohk3HJ8ukyE [/media]

Again, something you don’t know – in changing my elbow position, I started dropping my right shoulder too much during the downswing and my left shoulder was coming up – which is why my hands didn’t finish at the exact same spot they started. Secret? No, any teacher can tell you that. But why would I keep that from someone? If not to flatter myself?

My current swing, my hands finish where they start. Is that a secret? No. Can you do it, drew? No (seen your $$$ swing). Could I help you do it, yeah. Will I? prob not, but not because I think I’m better than you, but because I signed a confidentiality agreement with myself agreeing that I wouldn’t help arrogant hacks like yourself…and I have to respect that agreement

[dairic]

Ajc I agree with you that general information about the golf swing is free and not owned by anyone, and I agree that it's nice when everyone tries to help each other out. Also I don't think someone like slicefixer ownes the pivot driven swing or anything like that even if he spent half his life discovering it.

But isn't there also space for proprietary info that you get through an agreement? If slicefixer discovered a unique way to integrate a pivot driven swing in someone's action, isn't it ok that he decides to make a living doing so? i.e. $$$ for lessons.

I mean do you think you would personally benefit from taking paid lessons from a master of the game that only asks that their unique teaching system is not shared with the general public? Why can't there be space for that in addition to free flow of information? I just can't see why this is a bad thing or why these two things are in conflict.

Would this master of the game spend most of their time helping amateurs improve their game if they didn't get some kind of return? Most likely not and that would be a loss for everyone.

I agree that withholding information just for the sake of making others feel bad is an @ss hole thing to do. But this can easily be separated and differentiated from instructors trying to make a living.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348260510' post='5675201']
After that discussion, I recorded this:
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohk3HJ8ukyE [/media]

Again, something you don’t know – in changing my elbow position, I started dropping my right shoulder too much during the downswing and my left shoulder was coming up – which is why my hands didn’t finish at the exact same spot they started. Secret? No, any teacher can tell you that. But why would I keep that from someone? If not to flatter myself?

My current swing, my hands finish where they start. Is that a secret? No. Can you do it, drew? No (seen your $$$ swing). Could I help you do it, yeah. Will I? prob not, but not because I think I’m better than you, but because I signed a confidentiality agreement with myself agreeing that I wouldn’t help arrogant hacks like yourself…and I have to respect that agreement
[/quote]

Actually, Drew has mentioned whatever "secret" you're so pissed off not having read or heard bec of some sort of confi agreement. it's out there in 3k plus of his posts...lol

So you're actually making a fool out of yourself...Drew is actually trying to help people here that's been in his situation years ago---trying to improve and understand Mr. Hogan...you just have to stop wailing and start studying...golf is hard, accept it...

And fwiw, I too have said it all...not claiming I know it all, but definitely have not withhold any info...because I know they're just MHO and nobody will believe a hack like me...lol

[ajc57]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348285079' post='5676791']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348260510' post='5675201']
After that discussion, I recorded this:
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohk3HJ8ukyE [/media]

Again, something you don’t know – in changing my elbow position, I started dropping my right shoulder too much during the downswing and my left shoulder was coming up – which is why my hands didn’t finish at the exact same spot they started. Secret? No, any teacher can tell you that. But why would I keep that from someone? If not to flatter myself?

My current swing, my hands finish where they start. Is that a secret? No. Can you do it, drew? No (seen your $$$ swing). Could I help you do it, yeah. Will I? prob not, but not because I think I’m better than you, but because I signed a confidentiality agreement with myself agreeing that I wouldn’t help arrogant hacks like yourself…and I have to respect that agreement
[/quote]

Actually, Drew has mentioned whatever "secret" you're so pissed off not having read or heard bec of some sort of confi agreement. it's out there in 3k plus of his posts...lol

So you're actually making a fool out of yourself...Drew is actually trying to help people here that's been in his situation years ago---trying to improve and understand Mr. Hogan...you just have to stop wailing and start studying...golf is hard, accept it...

And fwiw, I too have said it all...not claiming I know it all, but definitely have not withhold any info...because I know they're just MHO and nobody will believe a hack like me...lol
[/quote]

Well for starters thank you for telling me about the Hogan Calendar. I just got it - best couple bucks I ever spent.

Two, I'm not going to keep "dancing" with you two - I heard that somewhere here and I love the expression. You can say I'm railing, call me fool, quote my posts and it won't matter much. After all, the audience here would have to matter to me personally (or monetarily?) for me to care what people think. I'm bothering with you two simply as a matter of principle . There's so much wrong with Golf these days and I believe it begins with forums like these. We are golf, not the pros.

It's nice that you guys sit here everyday and shoot the $%# about Ben Hogan, internal arm rotation, lag, P1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and whatever else you can come up with to confuse the crap out of each other in these forums. Still, the truth is it goes against the spirit of the game to see someone struggling and not TRY and help them improve - specially if you've been there. The idea that simple sentence from a single source or a "secret" will fix all their ailments or that they first have to "earn it" is preposterous and it's sign of arrogance and insecurity. It's quite bitter to force someone to go through the same struggles you went through just because you didn't have someone to help you (or you had to pay $). If you don't want to help people, and you're not looking to make a buck, then what's your motivation for being here? it starts with an "e," and end with "go."

That you guys have told some people your secrets, I have no doubt. But this dance that some of you do here, it's aggravating to me. It's my right to say so, so I did. Don't like what i have to say? that's fine, it's a public forum and this is but a small thread in thousands on this site. It's very telling that you two keep coming back here. Even though I was speaking in general terms, you both came over here with an explanation. I don't need your secrets, I really don't. THERE IS NOTHING you can tell me, that I haven't already read...and I read it from literally hundreds of sources, and in a thousand different ways. The hard part is implementing these pieces of information and integrating them into the picture puzzle we call our swings.

Now, most golfers don't want to be helped, and I can't blame them. It's fun to find out and groove your swing. It takes a very humble person to take advice from someone else and this applies to golf more than any other single thing I can of...but I was looking at the older threads, and anyone that made any sense, eventually left. Why? who knows, but I'm gone too.

[hoganfan924]

Please don't confuse me with HG101 (Re: Hogan calendar)! lol

Your "school's in session" post was childish. It's obvious from reading some of your posts that you're not a very good player yet, but you're going to "school" people that are more accomplished than you!?. It's clear from the video of you in the yellow shirt that you are hitting huge wipes yet somehow you think you know it all, have read everything there is to read and have those guys from the 50's all figured out. One thing about this game is that it's very humbling and just when you think you've got it figured out, it smacks you right upside the head. That's normal and part of the process. Believe me, in a few years time, you'll believe something very different than you do now and realize how foolish you've been.

As far as anything "original" in the golf swing, I tend to agree that there is little to nothing original in golf swing instruction that hasn't been published before. However, some ideas are compatible with each other and some are not and destructive to total motion. A big problem, IMO is that many instructors teach components which are not compatible with each other within the same swing and their students suffer. It is the rare instructor who's ideas match perfectly to produce a quality total motion.

For example, it became popular amonst some instructors (and still is to some extent today) that worked with K-vest data to advise students that "stalling the pivot speeds up the arms," complete mis-interpretation of the data that I debated with the assistant of a top 50 instructor right here a couple of years ago. Want to know what screwed up Michelle Wie's swing? - that right there - misinterpreted data leading to trying to teach her to "crack the whip," "snap the chain," yadda yadda. No surprise that she hits it shorter now (and much more crooked) than when she was 16 years old.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348327839' post='5677949']


For example, it became popular amonst some instructors (and still is to some extent today) that worked with K-vest data to advise students that "stalling the pivot speeds up the arms," complete mis-interpretation of the data that I debated with the assistant of a top 50 instructor right here a couple of years ago. Want to know what screwed up Michelle Wie's swing? - that right there - misinterpreted data leading to trying to teach her to "crack the whip," "snap the chain," yadda yadda. No surprise that she hits it shorter now (and much more crooked) than when she was 16 years old.
[/quote]

There hasn't been anything worse than that kinetic chain theory in golf instruction. Never. And all that because they couldn't understand reaction and action.

[allycat]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348325370' post='5677847']
There's so much wrong with Golf these days and I believe it begins with forums like these.
[/quote]


What are these 'so much wrong' things?

I've been in the game over 20 years and have not seen any negative effect of the internet carry over to the course, every time I tee up, or take a lesson, or buy a beer, it's been the same. Great people, fun game.

I think you have simply found what is so much wrong with the net LOL

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348325370' post='5677847']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348285079' post='5676791']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348260510' post='5675201']
After that discussion, I recorded this:
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohk3HJ8ukyE [/media]

Again, something you don’t know – in changing my elbow position, I started dropping my right shoulder too much during the downswing and my left shoulder was coming up – which is why my hands didn’t finish at the exact same spot they started. Secret? No, any teacher can tell you that. But why would I keep that from someone? If not to flatter myself?

My current swing, my hands finish where they start. Is that a secret? No. Can you do it, drew? No (seen your $$$ swing). Could I help you do it, yeah. Will I? prob not, but not because I think I’m better than you, but because I signed a confidentiality agreement with myself agreeing that I wouldn’t help arrogant hacks like yourself…and I have to respect that agreement
[/quote]

Actually, Drew has mentioned whatever "secret" you're so pissed off not having read or heard bec of some sort of confi agreement. it's out there in 3k plus of his posts...lol

So you're actually making a fool out of yourself...Drew is actually trying to help people here that's been in his situation years ago---trying to improve and understand Mr. Hogan...you just have to stop wailing and start studying...golf is hard, accept it...

And fwiw, I too have said it all...not claiming I know it all, but definitely have not withhold any info...because I know they're just MHO and nobody will believe a hack like me...lol
[/quote]

Well for starters thank you for telling me about the Hogan Calendar. I just got it - best couple bucks I ever spent.

Two, I'm not going to keep "dancing" with you two - I heard that somewhere here and I love the expression. You can say I'm railing, call me fool, quote my posts and it won't matter much. After all, the audience here would have to matter to me personally (or monetarily?) for me to care what people think. I'm bothering with you two simply as a matter of principle . There's so much wrong with Golf these days and I believe it begins with forums like these. We are golf, not the pros.

It's nice that you guys sit here everyday and shoot the $%# about Ben Hogan, internal arm rotation, lag, P1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and whatever else you can come up with to confuse the crap out of each other in these forums. Still, the truth is it goes against the spirit of the game to see someone struggling and not TRY and help them improve - specially if you've been there. The idea that simple sentence from a single source or a "secret" will fix all their ailments or that they first have to "earn it" is preposterous and it's sign of arrogance and insecurity. It's quite bitter to force someone to go through the same struggles you went through just because you didn't have someone to help you (or you had to pay $). If you don't want to help people, and you're not looking to make a buck, then what's your motivation for being here? it starts with an "e," and end with "go."

That you guys have told some people your secrets, I have no doubt. But this dance that some of you do here, it's aggravating to me. It's my right to say so, so I did. Don't like what i have to say? that's fine, it's a public forum and this is but a small thread in thousands on this site. It's very telling that you two keep coming back here. Even though I was speaking in general terms, you both came over here with an explanation. I don't need your secrets, I really don't. THERE IS NOTHING you can tell me, that I haven't already read...and I read it from literally hundreds of sources, and in a thousand different ways. The hard part is implementing these pieces of information and integrating them into the picture puzzle we call our swings.

Now, most golfers don't want to be helped, and I can't blame them. It's fun to find out and groove your swing. It takes a very humble person to take advice from someone else and this applies to golf more than any other single thing I can of...but I was looking at the older threads, and anyone that made any sense, eventually left. Why? who knows, but I'm gone too.
[/quote]

Brother in Hogan, you've totally misconstrued me there. And I apologize any unclarity I may have caused.

All I'm saying is I don't think anybody has NOT tried helping another in here. Drew, HGFan, eightiron, myself, and mostly in here has spelled out all their opinions re Hogan. I think you are interpreting/misinterpreting the fact that no one has told it to you or anybody in just ONE post or thread to mean that they are withholding their opinions, secrets or what have you and, thus, not trying to help. IMO that's an unfair judgment.

I don't think ANYBODY in here has withheld info/opinions re their own interpretation of Hogan. Period. It is just that they are scattered all over.

We understand each other?

[svsvincenzo]

In any case, you want help on a silver platter? Here it is...believe in ALL of what Hogan wrote and said. ALL of it. The secret...its in the '55 Life "Secret" article.

If that would help you, especially the '55 Life article, good for you. But all I'm gonna say is good luck and God bless...yeah, it is a curse...lol (and before misinterpretation happens...no bad tone in there...just trying to keep things in perspective...).