Cuts, soft fades, powerfades

[MrBig]

Optimist,

 

In DiMarco's case I think he is also feeling the correct swing plane. If your in a good position at 9:00, square face, full wrist c***, good plane, all you need to do is continue turning your shoulders and everything should be in good position at the top.

While I'm no club builder I think the opposite is true. Too stiff a shaft and the face has a difficult time squaring up, resulting in shots lost to the right. Too soft and the clubhead actually snaps closed and you fight a hook.

The thing I think Hogan failed to emphasize was trust. You can't make good "swings" thinking about all the positions you need the club to be in. If you think of a guy like Bobby Jones he allows centrifugal forces to set his club/body/what have you in proper position. I think this was a necessity when using hickory shafts, which are significantly softer than any steel shaft. We need to swing the club and allow gravity and physics to produce the consistency we all strive for. "Gain control by giving up control". Good luck...

 

G

[The_Optimist]

I was thinking DiMarco checks the swing at a point where the shaft is still parallel to the ground, but you may well be right that he is checking it at 9:00 rather than about 10:00 (supposing address is at 12:00). That was a very useful remark, because it made clear to me where the wrist hinge is taking place. That was one of the things I was working on during my range session yesterday evening. I also used the 3x5 card, which did help to give me confidence that I am staying under Hogan's glass plane consistently. I really like the idea of the movement past 9:00 being shoulders only, because that should help stabilize the clubhead at the top of the backswing.

 

Hogan points out that an unstable clubhead at the top of the backswing is likely caused by grip problems. So, as slicefixer mentioned, that is where I think I found some problems. The left hand was okay, but Hogan prefers the right hand to be more on top of the club than I had it. My V wants to point to my right shoulder rather than at my chin. What I found when I moved my right hand around the grip counter-clockwise was that the locking of the hands together is much more firm. I don't necessarily have to grip the club harder, but the hands themselves are more firmly locked together. I still feel a little stiff in my swing this way, but I've only just started it.

 

Another thing that was really different about my old swing was that the wrists were involved from takeway all the way to the top of the backswing. That clearly is not right.

 

I tried to find something about the effect of shaft stiffness, but I couldn't really come to a conclusion. Werner and Grieg in How Golf Clubs Really Work on page 86 say that shaft bending opens face angle and increases loft angle. My idea that the unloading of the shaft just before impact (see page 226 of Cochran and Stobbs' Search for the Perfect Swing) is caused by the spring in the shaft would have concluded that the lack of unloading from a too-floppy shaft would open the face and DECREASE loft angle. Furthermore, Werner and Grieg say explicitly in that same section that their strobe tests show that the shaft vibration is over by the time of impact and that the kick at the end is caused by centrifugal force rather than shaft stiffness. It's important to distinguish between the two, because those two forces are perpendicular to each other! So I haven't come to a conclusion yet.

 

Back to the range ... Thanks again!

 

Optimist,

 

In DiMarco's case I think he is also feeling the correct swing plane. If your in a good position at 9:00, square face, full wrist c***, good plane, all you need to do is continue turning your shoulders and everything should be in good position at the top.

While I'm no club builder I think the opposite is true. Too stiff a shaft and the face has a difficult time squaring up, resulting in shots lost to the right. Too soft and the clubhead actually snaps closed and you fight a hook.

The thing I think Hogan failed to emphasize was trust. You can't make good "swings" thinking about all the positions you need the club to be in. If you think of a guy like Bobby Jones he allows centrifugal forces to set his club/body/what have you in proper position. I think this was a necessity when using hickory shafts, which are significantly softer than any steel shaft. We need to swing the club and allow gravity and physics to produce the consistency we all strive for. "Gain control by giving up control". Good luck...

 

G

50558[/snapback]

[slicefixer]

Good stuff!!

 

My guess is that DeMarco, like Weir, is simply trying to feel the cluface opening up due to the rotation of the lead forearm.....left in righty, etc. This forearm rotation does two things.........gets the clubface opening up (rotating) and also rotates the shaft onto the correct plane (shallows the shaft angle).....without forearm rotation the clubhead will have a tendency to work up on a steep plane as will the shaft/arms.......this requires a pretty serious shallowing of the shaft in the transition to get the shaft on the correct plane before the core can rotate through the shot......IF the shaft doesn't shallow to the correct plane a pull will result and is the primary reason you see players who don't have a lot of forearm rotation, Sluman/Sutton come immediately to mind, playing primarily fades......IF they don't shallow the shaft enough they can still hit a pull-fade back to the target and nobody knows the better.......VERY hard for these guy's to draw the ball though.......ONLY when they are swinging their absolute best......

 

As for the shaft, etc. Hickory shafts had a TON of "torque" and therefore required the hands/arms to be involved to square the clubhead at impact.......steel has 1.8 - 2.2 degs of torque by the nature of the material so it has 10-20-30 times LESS torque than hickory/birch.......You can swing steel in an entirely different way than hickory......use the big core muscles and ALLOW the clubface to sqaure due to physics rather than FORCING the club to square with the hand/arms as with hickory.......I've studied Jones swing an awful lot.....it is a very unique swing for its time as it has some of the characteristics of the "classic" hickory based action and some of the "modern" action........however, ALL of my Jones footage was taken AFTER he'd switched to FAKE hickory shafts provided to him by Spalding.......these shafts LOOKED like hickory, but, in actual fact were nothing more than steel wrapped with some type of hickory looking material.......when steel was first introduced during the early 30's there was tremendous resistance to changing from hickory......therefore the reasoning to cover the steel shaft to make it look like hickory......MUCH like Ely Callaway did in the late 80's with his "hickory sticks"......

 

As for the shaft and how it performs.......

 

MANY different elements go into a shafts performance.......I'm the first to admit I'm about a 10 hdcp when it come to the technical aspects of shafts.....well, maybe a 5..........but....

 

Flex

Weight and its distribution within the shaft....

Length

Flex point

torque

Weight of the head used.....

Physics of the head used.....

Strengh/speed of the player....

Type of "release/swing" of the player....

 

ALL of these factors and several more determine how/what a shaft will do as a result of the stresses placed upon it during a golf swing......a person CANNOT guarantee how a shaft will perform until ALL of these components are entered into the equation.......I've seen shafts react COMPLETELY differently based on the speed/strength/type of release/swing used by the particular player......totally different......I've also seen clubs/shafts that the "engineer's" thought were the "ultimate" turn out to be TOTAL J U N K ......see Ping Zing as one example......I played a practice round with Emlyn Aubrey at the Nike event in Shreveport, LA in about 92-93.....he broke out a set of brand new Zing's with some type of very low torque graphite in them.......before 18 holes had been completed 2 or 3 of the clubs had broken at the hosel due to the twisting of the clubhead........due to the physical forces on the shaft/head placed on them by Emlyn's golfswing and the "physics" designed into the head by the "engineers" the head wanted to go one way while the shaft wanted to go another......result.......club in 2 pieces....:cheesy:

 

My suggestion would be to go to a VERY good club builder in your area........have him/her check out your current equipment/ball flight, etc. and make some recommendations......then "test" some different combinations.......you'll find something that reacts after some homework.....

 

:cheesy:

[Jim_0068]

all of the mentioned  players hit a "pull draw" when trying to draw the ball......meaning they aim well right of the target......starte the ball left of where their bodies were aligned but still right of target and then draw the ball back towards the target........VERY inconsistent way to hit a draw (UNLESS your Kenny Perry...:drinks:).......but can be done....

44513[/snapback]

 

Question: Are you suggesting that Kenny Perry hits pull draws for his "draw" shots?

[slicefixer]

Yep, its a fact......he aims right.....starts the ball left of his body lines but right of his target.....and then draws the ball.......Snead did the same thing when he played a draw, although a pull fade was his bread and butter shot......its technically a pull draw.......I've got some beautiful video of him @ Pinehurst this year.....one is a shot on #17 and was taken from out in front of him about 40 yards or so........you can see the plane he swings the club on perfectly......inside to the top......then SLIGHTLY over the backswing but still inside the target line.....ball starts slightly right.......then draws slightly........when he hits it good.....

[Jim_0068]

slice fixer...

 

first i'd like to say that i'm not trying to cause trouble. Ok, now that this is out of the way do you have any pictures of this that i could look at?

 

Personally from every down the line view i've ever seen of Kenny's swing he is right on plane or even under slightly.

 

I remember a V1 analysis that Ron Gring did of him that i'll try to find, could you find something that shows what you're talking about? It has me intrigued

 

Thanks!

[slicefixer]

I know Ron......still in Mobile area I guess? He's a very good guy and good teacher!

 

I'll do you one better.....if you'll send me your address via PM I'll send you the exact footage........its taken on # 17......

 

Cheers!

[The_Optimist]

The Optimist has returned! I have to ask you about this pull-draw business, slicefixer.

 

But, first, let me tell you what happened with my swing, which was fixed in ten minutes by a local college coach - it's not the first time he has fixed my swing, by the way. He took one look at it and got excited - my hands, he tells me, are WAY to far back on the backswing, and the club shaft 'laid off,' pointing out toward timbuctoo somewhere 50 yds left of the target line. He wanted my hands more out in front of my chest during the backswing. He couldn't care less about Hogan's glass plane. His point was that the hands needed to be closer, or on, the swing plane. To me, it feels like I am now swinging up-and-down, as opposed to around-and-back. It's much, much simpler - just up and down and don't pay any attention to whether the club shaft goes over the glass plane or not. It might actually still BE under that plane, because my hands are LOWER at the peak of the backswing, and the shaft position is determined by the wrist hinge, which is determined by keeping the 'crinkles' the same as at address, as you mentioned before.

 

When he first had me do it, I was, like, no way mister, this is going to be a HUGE slice ... then, no slice. It just felt to me like I was way over the swing plane when in fact I was just staying on it during the backswing.

 

The results were just shocking. I immediately had 15-20 yds more in distance, and the accuracy was just phenomenal. Because of weather I've only been out three times, but I was immediately consistently hitting greens again from over 150 yds, which I hadn't done in weeks.

 

The other thing he changed was to narrow my stance by about 1-2 ball widths. I was

'fighting the weight shift to the back' by widening my stance, which brought my hands closer to my body at address. So my downswing was running into my body, causing clubhead deceleration. My hands being too far behind me meant that I had to loop them over the swing plane on the downswing to try to get back on plane, and that was costing clubhead speed loss as well. You certainly would have seen it if I a video - I've got to buy a video camera.

 

Now about the pull-draw. Suppose part of hitting a draw is closing the club-face. Then, of course, 1) you get the pull, and 2) you deloft the club face. This is how I was hitting draws this past summer. I would turn my body to the right at address, then either tee the ball higher or put it more forward in my stance to try to get some loft back. But several of my playing partners were hitting these high beautiful arcing draws with mid-irons of which I was very jealous. (Cuz, of course, I couldn't tee the ball higher on my fairway mid-iron shots.) So, right after I got my swing path fixed and was showing it to my clubmaker/mentor, I complained about the draw problem. And he said, what you want to do is "release the clubhead early." I couldn't really understand what he meant, but I just sort of tried it as a swing thought. Very weird experience, I can tell you, when I started hitting those shots, unlike any I had ever hit before. I guess if I were to try to describe it, I would say that I am keeping my hands behind the ball at impact. Or maybe less far in front of it - I'm not sure which. I've done something like this when making short pitches to get more loft when short-sided, but this is with a full swing, so the timing has to be just right. Unlike the closed-club-face draw, the swing path is hardly changed at all. There was no need to force an in-out swing path. It WAS important to hit the ball just a bit toward the toe of the club, maybe 1/8 inch off center - the draw action was reduced if the ball was hit off the heel side of the club face. But boy were those beautiful shots. And I hit a whole bunch of them once I got the feel for it - it just wasn't hard. The timing took some getting used to - if you don't get the club released soon enough, you lose the loft. But when you DO get it released, you also get more clubhead speed, so you don't lose distance, like you do with the other type of draw. And since the swing path isn't changed, it's awfully accurate. More loft, more clubhead speed, more accuracy - heaven. With a 7-iron I was drawing the ball a good 10 yards.

 

 

Yep, its a fact......he aims right.....starts the ball left of his body lines but right of his target.....and then draws the ball.......Snead did the same thing when he played a draw, although a pull fade was his bread and butter shot......its technically a pull draw.......I've got some beautiful video of him @ Pinehurst this year.....one is a shot on #17 and was taken from out in front of him about 40 yards or so........you can see the plane he swings the club on perfectly......inside to the top......then SLIGHTLY over the backswing but still inside the target line.....ball starts slightly right.......then draws slightly........when he hits it good.....

54421[/snapback]

[slicefixer]

FANTASTIC!!! VERY glad to hear your back on track!

 

What it sounds like your doing is holding the trunk back and releasing the arms......or thats what it will "feel" like.......what your actually doing is allowing the arms to get back in front of the chest so that everything can be released together.......what I tell students to "feel" to do this is I want them to feel like they are hitting the ball with the actual loft of the clubface.....OR......"feel" like when they actually strike the ball that the shaft is vertical instead of leaning towards the target.....

 

I use to hit draws with the exact same thought.......hold the trunk back and release the arms.......I had to do it because my backswing was waaaaay too far inside and the club was very laid off and the face was open.......TERRIBLE backswing, but, I could fix it by simply focusing on releasing the arms while holding the shoulders "back"........

 

These type of "fixes" are almost always associated with one of two thing.....

 

Either the student has the arms too steep at the top of the backswing......OR they have the arms "BEHIND" the body at the top (I always use the term "frames"......for instance if the arms continue in the backswing AFTER the trunk/turn has been completed I simply count the number of frames.......if the arms continue for 3 frames - 3 frame "gap" between the arms and the core........6 frames...same, etc. IF there is a "gap" this gap MUST be recovered in the downswing in order to hit the ball flush with the proper path and angle of attack.......IF the player does NOT recover this "gap" the club will be behind them and out of synch so that when they body is in good position to hit the ball the club is still 3 frames behind........when the ball is actually struck the body is 3 frames "ahead" ...or too open....too far gone......

 

IF the arms are too steep (even if they are in synch) and the player attempts to rotate the trunk properly the arms will be attacking on too steep a path so the player will "feel" "over the top" and pulls/pull hooks/pull fades will occur.......the shots will feel fairly solid to very solid but the flight will start left of their body lines....ie. pull.......

 

You can play from "in synch" with steep arms IF you drop the arms onto the correct plane/path in the transition......Furyk, Cal Peete, older Nick Price.....etc. There have been a TON of guy's play successfully this way as the "drop" is what they "time" their entire swing upon........

 

Sounds like you've got it licked......I'm tickled for you!

[Jim_0068]

sounds like you are swinging on the turning shoulder plane. Similar to David Toms. I use the same type of swing, the way my instructor explains it is that you are lifting your arms,hands, and club "up a vertical wall, letting everything drop back down the vertical wall, and then swinging left of the wall."

 

It feels very "up and down" because your arm swing is very steep but you get the "in" and the "out" from the turning of the shoulders.

 

This is a great way to swing the club for very straight shots and it basically eliminates hooks, not pulls...but definately hooks.

[The_Optimist]

I am interested in your comment, but I don't think I entirely understood it.

Yes, I would say that the swing is like lifting your hands up a vertical wall

that is facing you at setup, then bringing them directly down that wall.

And yes, the clubhead swings left away from that wall during the followthrough.

What I am not sure about is what you are calling the turning shoulder plane.

I can define a plane perpendicular to the turning axis (the spine) which

passes through the shoulders. But I would have guessed that this plane is much

shallower (closer to horizontal) than the plane my hands go through.

Maybe I am wrong about this. Boy, do I need a video camera.

 

I think you mean by "in and out' the direction perpendicular to 'up and down',

right? Does that mean that one can generate a clubhead path angle relative

to the target line by changing the shoulder turn relative to the path the hands

are on?

 

I guess what I am wondering is, maybe by 'releasing the clubhead early'

(perfectly described by slicefixer as getting the hands in front of the torso and having the

shaft more vertical at impact) I've changed the shoulder turn such as to get an in-out swing path which imparts a draw spin to the ball. If this is the way it works, then it would be very difficult (contorted) to hit a fade when releasing early or to hit a draw releasing late.

 

I should have mentioned that I was NOT consciously changing the face angle, neither at address nor at impact. There is something about the swing mechanics with this kind of way of working the ball that imparts sideways spin at impact even though the swing path feels almost unchanged.

 

There is another neat thing about it which I didn't mention before, pointed out to me by the genius who showed it to me. The flight of the ball going up is determined by the swing path, which is thenearly the same, so it doesn't change, but when it comes DOWN, it draws

if the release is early. I think he said it goes UP with the swing path and DOWN with the face angle, or something like that. I think there is something about the club face rotating around a vertical axis at impact, and it is more rotated with an early release. I guess I am surprised that you don't get the normal pull and loss of loft that you get with a closed face,

if that were true.

 

I didn't try to hit any fades by 'releasing late.' I don't know if it works. In general, I've

had almost no luck hitting iron fades by changing swing path, even though I can easily

hit low hooks around trees that way.

 

 

sounds like you are swinging on the turning shoulder plane. Similar to David Toms. I use the same type of swing, the way my instructor explains it is that you are lifting your arms,hands, and club "up a vertical wall, letting everything drop back down the vertical wall, and then swinging left of the wall."

 

It feels very "up and down" because your arm swing is very steep but you get the "in" and the "out" from the turning of the shoulders.

 

This is a great way to swing the club for very straight shots and it basically eliminates hooks, not pulls...but definately hooks.

56064[/snapback]

[The_Optimist]

You have definitely understood what I am talking about concerning 'releasing early' -

perfect description.

 

One of my golf partners, bill, has EXACTLY the swing you refer to, plus almost

no torso rotation. He gets better scores than I do, but it makes me sick to watch him.

I'm like 'retch, retch - nice shot - retch'. He gets tremendous distance and accuracy with

his WRIST SNAP. Crouched over at address, very low backswing, clubface very open at address - yuk! And he hits these beautiful high draws with his mid-irons. When my mentor showed me the late release stuff after I told him about bill, he said, by the way, the guys who are REALLY expert at this are the OLD guys. It's the ONLY way they can do it.

bill is 60, I'm 49, so I can see my future flashing before me.

 

did I understand you to recommend a 'gapless swing'? Would this mean that the arms stop during the backswing when the shoulder turn stops? So the only thing after the shoulder turn stops would be the wrist hinge? I think that is what I am striving for, but I'm not sure I've paid direct attention to that part.

 

I talked about furyk with the coach, because when I had the way-too-far back backswing I sometimes had a clubhead-wiggle at transition, and one of my golfing partners was complaining bitterly about it, likening it to furyk, whose swing he didn't like. When I mentioned this to the coach, he looked at me wide-eyed and said, with emphasis, that

jim furyk has one of the BEST cluhead positions just prior to the downswing of ANYONE on tour, and said there is general agreement on this. He said the difference is how he gets there during the backswing. I think you were saying something similar.

 

btw, if one times the swing to the drop, is that the same thing as saying that the

FIRST movement of the downswing is with the ARMS? That WOULD seem rather

unconventional. Maybe not absolutely necessary to overcome the gap, but it

just occured to me that if the drop is the timing trigger then maybe the arms are initiating the downswing. I certainly try to avoid that at all costs.

 

 

FANTASTIC!!! VERY glad to hear your back on track! 

 

What it sounds like your doing is holding the trunk back and releasing the arms......or thats what it will "feel" like.......what your actually doing is allowing the arms to get back in front of the chest so that everything can be released together.......what I tell students to "feel" to do this is I want them to feel like they are hitting the ball with the actual loft of the clubface.....OR......"feel" like when they actually strike the ball that the shaft is vertical instead of leaning towards the target.....

 

I use to hit draws with the exact same thought.......hold the trunk back and release the arms.......I had to do it because my backswing was waaaaay too far inside and the club was very laid off and the face was open.......TERRIBLE backswing, but, I could fix it by simply focusing on releasing the arms while holding the shoulders "back"........

 

These type of "fixes" are almost always associated with one of two thing.....

 

Either the student has the arms too steep at the top of the backswing......OR they have the arms "BEHIND" the body at the top (I always use the term "frames"......for instance if the arms continue in the backswing AFTER the trunk/turn has been completed I simply count the number of frames.......if the arms continue for 3 frames - 3 frame "gap" between the arms and the core........6 frames...same, etc.  IF there is a "gap" this gap MUST be recovered in the downswing in order to hit the ball flush with the proper path and angle of attack.......IF the player does NOT recover this "gap" the club will be behind them and out of synch so that when they body is in good position to hit the ball the club is still 3 frames behind........when the ball is actually struck the body is 3 frames "ahead" ...or too open....too far gone......

 

IF the arms are too steep (even if they are in synch) and the player attempts to rotate the trunk properly the arms will be attacking on too steep a path so the player will "feel" "over the top" and pulls/pull hooks/pull fades will occur.......the shots will feel fairly solid to very solid but the flight will start left of their body lines....ie. pull.......

 

You can play from "in synch" with steep arms IF you drop the arms onto the correct plane/path in the transition......Furyk, Cal Peete, older Nick Price.....etc.  There have been a TON of guy's play successfully this way as the "drop" is what they "time" their entire swing upon........

 

Sounds like you've got it licked......I'm tickled for you!

55812[/snapback]

[slicefixer]

"Optimist"......what your doing is correcting a backswing flaw (the arms aren't quite properly sychronized with the trunk) by releasing the arms earlier.......or at least it will FEEL that way.....whats in all likelyhood actually happening is that your simply allowing your arms to get back in synch with the trunk and then everything can go TOGETHER.......

 

NOW, IF the arms are truly swinging down with a "dead" trunk you'll eventually get to hitting BIG hooks.....and I mean BIG.....and BIG blocks also......then you'll need to ADD some trunk rotation and FORGET about the arms to hit the ball straighter and with less hook......

 

I could easily be wrong as its VERY hard to get "right" without seeing the swing via properly shot video, but, I've seen what happens to players who ingrain what you SEEM to be working on and what I've described happens 100% of the time.....eventually.......Bender/Flick are both BIG "work the arms down from the top" teachers.......and this method is VERY reliable for some good players.......Luke Donald being one.......but, as with any golfswing method it does have its problems......

 

However, its GREAT to hear your now getting the type of ball flight that YOU desire to "see".......its also GREAT that you've found a teacher of whom you TRUST his knowledge and teaching ability.......thats VERY important........WITHOUT some QUALITY guidance the journey to a sound swing can be EXTREMELY frustrating......often to the point of simply giving up......WITH the guidance of a teacher YOU trust you'll find the "journey" to be an enjoyable and enlightening experience.....

 

ADDENDUM to this post as I just READ your other post....."Adult ADD"

 

"did I understand you to recommend a 'gapless swing'? Would this mean that the arms stop during the backswing when the shoulder turn stops? So the only thing after the shoulder turn stops would be the wrist hinge? I think that is what I am striving for, but I'm not sure I've paid direct attention to that part. "

 

Yep, 100% of ALL G R E A T ballstrikers I've observed when they are swinging WELL do EXACTLY that......EVERYTHING, body/arms/club are in perfect harmony and what I call "balance".......everything is moving in the correct "sequence" and together.....thats why they ALL look so effortless when swinging well.......the wrists are "set" long before the backswing ends and they simply "carry" this wrist set to the top....everything TOGETHER.....

 

To be truthful, Tiger hasn't looked that way since 00'......he still doesn't have the downswing right IMOP.....his "throughswing" is full of errors and the throughswing IS a mirror image of what went on BEFORE it.....(the downswing).......it APPEARS that he's got a TERRIBLE "concept" of what SHOULD occur after impact........and the "drills" I see him working on are NOT correct.....thats why Faldo (as are a TON of other knowledgable people......just NOT publicly) is so often questioning and doubting Tiger when he sees him doing all of his throughswing "contortions" after he's hit a poor shot.......which he hits a LOT of these days.......:D

[The_Optimist]

slicefixer - just to be clear. if i were to have a chronic draw which I could not get rid of, I would consider THAT to be a flaw. What I was talking about above was how to hit a draw when you need one.

 

nonetheless, i am sure you are right that I have a flaw with the straight shot swing. Ironically, despite the major change in the backswing which solved so many problems, the result with the driver off the tee is the SAME (just with much more distance and loft): a very mild fade. The coach loved it and said it's just what he looks for in his own tee shots. I guess if I could choose, I would prefer a somewhat more penetrating ball flight. But with more roll you have to control it better ...

 

Here is more support for your view: on ONE of the 7-iron swings practicing with my 'release-timing-fetishist-clubmaker/mentor' I didn't get it released quite early enough for the draw and the ball went high and long dead straight, and my observer exclaimed, now THAT was the BEST-TIMED RELEASE POINT you have had yet!! So my guess is that my timing

is slightly off as a general rule, namely, my release point is late, causing a slight fade and meaning I am not getting my full clubhead speed. I need to play with this release-point-timing business. I've never worked on this aspect at all.

 

"NOW, IF the arms are truly swinging down with a "dead" trunk you'll eventually get to hitting BIG hooks.....and I mean BIG.....and BIG blocks also......then you'll need to ADD some trunk rotation and FORGET about the arms to hit the ball straighter and with less hook......"

 

You know, it's a funny thing, I have NEVER, EVER had the slightest problem with hooking the ball. I've been out with some people who have a TERRIBLE chronic hook and I go, 'What is WITH these weirdo's?' I've never really been able to tell what causes it. The worst thing that happens to me off the tee is sailing a ball pushed and sliced 50 yds left of the target line. I'm not sure I've ever even hit one hook off the tee. You'd think if I had a neutral swing I would hit half and half.

 

"WITHOUT some QUALITY guidance the journey to a sound swing can be EXTREMELY frustrating......often to the point of simply giving up......WITH the guidance of a teacher YOU trust you'll find the "journey" to be an enjoyable and enlightening experience....."

 

Exactly right. One thing this experience taught me is that my swing can get some kind of 'creeping munge' over a period of weeks, just getting worse and worse, and that 15 minutes with a teaching pro can do wonders. You know, I played with a guy in a tournament in September who said as we finished 'These clubs are going into storage for the rest of this year.' Man, what a shame.

 

"they ALL look so effortless when swinging well.......the wrists are "set" long before the backswing ends and they simply "carry" this wrist set to the top....everything TOGETHER....."

 

Oh, that's different than what i said about the wrist hinge. I think what you are saying

is that NOTHING happens after the shoulders stop turning on the backswing - that's the

end of it. The wrists are hinged well before that. And the arms don't move any

further back either, so there is no 'gap.'

 

Flexibility has a lot to do with all of this. I started stretching a lot every morning a couple of years ago because it fixed a lower-back-pain problem I had been having. I'm still amazed that I continue to get an extra inch about every 6 months or so - getting my hands past my feet when stretching the h-strings in a sitting position. Prior to a round what I do is go into a backswing and then exaggerate it a lot and hold it for a while several times, then repeating that with the followthrough position. So far no injuries ...

 

"Optimist"......what your doing is correcting a backswing flaw (the arms aren't quite properly sychronized with the trunk) by releasing the arms earlier.......or at least it will FEEL that way.....whats in all likelyhood actually happening is that your simply allowing your arms to get back in synch with the trunk and then everything can go TOGETHER.......

 

NOW, IF the arms are truly swinging down with a "dead" trunk you'll eventually get to hitting BIG hooks.....and I mean BIG.....and BIG blocks also......then you'll need to ADD some trunk rotation and FORGET about the arms to hit the ball straighter and with less hook......

 

I could easily be wrong as its VERY hard to get "right" without seeing the swing via properly shot video, but, I've seen what happens to players who ingrain what you SEEM to be working on and what I've described happens 100% of the time.....eventually.......Bender/Flick are both BIG "work the arms down from the top" teachers.......and this method is VERY reliable for some good players.......Luke Donald being one.......but, as with any golfswing method it does have its problems......

 

"However, its GREAT to hear your now getting the type of ball flight that YOU desire to "see".......its also GREAT that you've found a teacher of whom you TRUST his knowledge and teaching ability.......thats VERY important........WITHOUT some QUALITY guidance the journey to a sound swing can be EXTREMELY frustrating......often to the point of simply giving up......WITH the guidance of a teacher YOU trust you'll find the "journey" to be an enjoyable and enlightening experience....."

 

ADDENDUM to this post as I just READ your other post....."Adult ADD"

 

"did I understand you to recommend a 'gapless swing'? Would this mean that the arms stop during the backswing when the shoulder turn stops? So the only thing after the shoulder turn stops would be the wrist hinge? I think that is what I am striving for, but I'm not sure I've paid direct attention to that part. "

 

Yep, 100% of ALL G R E A T ballstrikers I've observed when they are swinging WELL do EXACTLY that......EVERYTHING, body/arms/club are in perfect harmony and what I call "balance".......everything is moving in the correct "sequence" and together.....thats why they ALL look so effortless when swinging well.......the wrists are "set" long before the backswing ends and they simply "carry" this wrist set to the top....everything TOGETHER.....

 

To be truthful, Tiger hasn't looked that way since 00'......he still doesn't have the downswing right IMOP.....his "throughswing" is full of errors and the throughswing IS a mirror image of what went on BEFORE it.....(the downswing).......it APPEARS that he's got a TERRIBLE "concept" of what SHOULD occur after impact........and the "drills" I see him working on are NOT correct.....thats why Faldo (as are a TON of other knowledgable people......just NOT publicly) is so often questioning and doubting Tiger when he sees him doing all of his throughswing "contortions" after he's hit a poor shot.......which he hits a LOT of these days.......:D

56302[/snapback]

[slicefixer]

Heck, here I've been writing all this stuff thinking you were right handed.....

 

"The worst thing that happens to me off the tee is sailing a ball pushed and sliced 50 yds L E F T of the target line."

 

It sounds as if you've had a very passive hands release in the past and that would explain the lack of any big hooks........it also sounds like your arms have been "behind" your trunk at the top of the backswing and you have a tendency to get out in "front" of the ball through impact......therefore the pushes......this makes PERFECT sense as to why your now hitting it so well "releasing" your arms "early"......When a player "feels" like they are releasing the arms early or from the top what they are actually doing is allowing the right shoulder (for a L hander...:D) to be pulled away from the chin immediately in the transition which allows the arms to work down and then in a position to work with the body.......

 

KEEP working on this and working with YOUR teacher.......sounds like he has a lot of knowledge and will be VERY helpful for you for a long time to come!

[TheLastDon]

Heck, here I've been writing all this stuff thinking you were right handed.....;)

 

"The worst thing that happens to me off the tee is sailing a ball pushed and sliced 50 yds L E F T of the target line."

 

:D

 

Don't worry too much about it, Slicefixer. Any lefty worth his salt has learned to automatically translate any advice given to his side of the ball. It gets ingrained into our brains very early on.

 

I'm so bad that when someone actually does give me advice in lefty-ese, I look at them funny......... :crazy:

[The_Optimist]

OOPS !!!!!!!!! How could I write such a thing? Of course I am right-handed, as you saw in

the picture, and of course I meant RIGHT. Man, what is WRONG with me today?

 

btw, i thought passive hands was a GOOD thing.

 

Heck, here I've been writing all this stuff thinking you were right handed.....

 

"The worst thing that happens to me off the tee is sailing a ball pushed and sliced 50 yds L E F T of the target line."

 

It sounds as if you've had a very passive hands release in the past and that would explain the lack of any big hooks........it also sounds like your arms have been "behind" your trunk at the top of the backswing and you have a tendency to get out in "front" of the ball through impact......therefore the pushes......this makes PERFECT sense as to why your now hitting it so well "releasing" your arms "early"......When a player "feels" like they are releasing the arms early or from the top what they are actually doing is allowing the right shoulder (for a L hander...:D) to be pulled away from the chin immediately in the transition which allows the arms to work down and then in a position to work with the body.......

 

KEEP working on this and working with YOUR teacher.......sounds like he has a lot of knowledge and will be VERY helpful for you for a long time to come!

56383[/snapback]

[slicefixer]

"Passive hands" IS A GOOD THING! In fact, everything I base my teaching upon is based on getting the hands (not the arms necessarily) out of the golf swing......

[ce_me_golf]

"Passive hands" IS A GOOD THING!  In fact, everything I base my teaching upon is based on getting the hands (not the arms necessarily) out of the golf swing......

56406[/snapback]

 

I find I play my best golf with passive hands. Good posture, good grip, good address position, and a good should turn more often than not lead to a good swing. :D :crazy: ;) :smilie_cally: :smilie_cally: :smilie_cally:

[GolfEquipmentZone]

I think the most simple method to learn a fade is this. Its easy.

 

Take your absolutely normal stance, and setup. Totally normal.

 

#1 When you address the ball and have the club face aimed at the target, look out there and aim the clubface about 10 feet right of the target, then 15, then 20, etc, until you learn how many feet right equals how much fade.

#2 always take the exact same swing everytime, don't try some nonsense that changes your swing whatsoever. Just aim a few feet more right with the clubface only.

 

Thats it, its simple. If you draw its so easy to hit a fade. So easy. Do step #1 until you start hitting it right. For me, I aim about 5 feet right of the target which is the very left side of the fairway, and the ball goes left about less than 1/10 of 1% of the time probably.

 

Good luck.

 

Jeff