Wishon: The way golf clubs are being sold has harmed golf

[dplasters]

I think being 'fit' can easily bring about tension and nerves in people. No one wants to be judged.. and when you are a 20+ capper I'd think the last thing you'd really want to do is stand next to a guy telling you that you really only hit your drive 195 (and 35 yards right) and that your swing is the least repeatable thing he has ever seen.

Buying off the rack lets you ignore these problems and opens golf up to lots of people who might otherwise not play it. The rack lowers the cost of entry into golf (mentally and financially). It is not obvious to me that the prevalence of the 'rack' hurts the game. We don't know what the game would look like without the box stores.. my assumption is much smaller and less available than it currently is. Side note (how do we define what is good for golf? Is it lowering average score? Maximizing the number of golfers? etc.....)

I hear cycling is really concerned that you aren't going to get fit at your local custom shop and you are letting your kids grow up on off the rack huffys from walmart.

[J5isalive]

I dont know... I can play most any club that is tossed in my hand. People put SOOO much importance on fitting and i am a little bit of the belief that its not as important as its made out to be. I am speaking strickly from an Irons perspective, i do believe properly fit woods is important simply to get the most out of what you put in.

I think if someone has eye hand coordination they are going to be able to play what is given to them. Give me an Regular Flex, a Stiff, and an X-Stiff iron, put me 150 yards away. I'm going to swing 8 iron in any flex, and i am going to hit the green with any of those flexes. The shots will be different but i will not be able to associate if it was the flex that cause the shot to be different or my swing, but i will be putting with each and wont be concerned about it.

I used to play irons at 3 degrees Up. My buddy plays at 2 degrees flat... I hit his irons as well as i hit mine. First swing i will notice that my hands are a little lower but after that i take no notice. I swing and hit down on the ball. I am a firm believer that there is only 3 inches of the swing that matter, 1.5 inch before (Point A) impact through 1.5 after impact (Point B), doesnt matter how you get to Point A you just need to get there and understand the laws of ball flight to choose what to do from point A through to point B.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1356012374' post='6095243']

Nobody with any sense thinks s 46.5" driver is a good length for most golfers. Yet we have no option for off the rack drivers at a reasonable 43-44" length.

[/quote]

Fourmyle, your statement here sure brought an interesting past experience back into my head. Back when I was with Golfsmith, while I had no responsibilities in their retail operation, as a VP I had to sit in on many of the retail division meetings. In a meeting with one of the OEM companies' reps and execs, I made the suggestion that it would be good for golfers if the OEM added on a shorter length driver option. And while I could tell the OEM was not all that enamored with my suggestion, how my suggestion really got shut down was from my own co workers in Golfsmith retail because they simply did not want to have any additional driver inventory units to have to deal with.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='dplasters' timestamp='1356019970' post='6095769']
Side note (how do we define what is good for golf? Is it lowering average score? Maximizing the number of golfers? etc.....)

[/quote]

I define it in the context of this article by saying golfers who play a little better and enjoy the game more are happier and tend to play more golf. And while I totally understand those who do not want more play on their course, more participation trickles down to help perpetuate the existence of this great game in several positive ways.

[dplasters]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1356020577' post='6095817']
[quote name='dplasters' timestamp='1356019970' post='6095769']
Side note (how do we define what is good for golf? Is it lowering average score? Maximizing the number of golfers? etc.....)

[/quote]

I define it in the context of this article by saying golfers who play a little better and enjoy the game more are happier and tend to play more golf. And while I totally understand those who do not want more play on their course, more participation trickles down to help perpetuate the existence of this great game in several positive ways.
[/quote]

Right, but the definition of what is "good for the game" makes the argument for you. If we assume that "good" is getting people to shoot lower scores (because it makes them happy! Perhaps it upset them. They first drop a few shots of the handicap, hit a plateau, get frustrated because they take the game seriously now and quit) and that fitting lowers scores bam we are done. No need for that long post, then clearly big boxes are bad for the game.

My point is that "grow the game" tends to be on more people's minds. Growing implies increasing the base which implies getting more people to play. Off the rack does that. Is it a long term solution? I don't know. Is off the rack good enough to have them bitten by the golfing bug and then seek out fitting one day? Beats me. But the fact that there is a mix of both off the rack/big box and custom fitting seems like a wonderful medium to me that works well for both aspects.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

The adjustable drivers with interchangeable shafts has surely been a godsend to retailers, it really lets "off the shelf" cover a much wider range with fewer inventory units.

The thing that's really missing in my opinion is an ability to add meaningful weight to the driver head. Not moving 5-10 grams here or there. I mean the ability to boost a 198g head to 220 grams or more. Then with the modern shaft adapters we could stick a 2-1/2" shorter shaft in there, if needed crank the loft to the max and really offer an meaningful option.

It's frustrating to know that the several models of 913d, for example, can be configured with lofts from 8-ish to 13-ish degrees and with dozens of different shafts...yet not a single option for playing one under about 44-1/2" without modifying the head with lead tape or weight down the shaft. It's nuts.

[P.Lay]

[quote]
Completely agree with you here; while I agree with many of the points raised within the article, it also reads like an informercial for Wishon Golf.
[/quote]

That's not how I took it at all.Sure, Tom sells club heads and shafts. Would he like more folks to buy from him? I suspect so. But I don't see anywhere here, or in any of Tom's other posts, that suggests that his recommendations to get custom fit only provides benefits to a golfer if done with his Tom's equipment. If Tom read the Titleist TPI driver fitting that someone posted about, I am sure he would have enjoyed reading that someone went out and got fit for a driver (I can't imagine that the TItleist guys at the TPI don't know what they are doing) and I find it hard to believe that he would sit back thinking "s***, I told them to go get fit, but there goes another Wishon club sale".

I for one really appreciates the contributions of Tom to this board. I don't post much but have been around here since 2006 and read a lot about golf equipment. In all those years, no posts have been as informative as Tom's posts in terms of educating me about golf equipment and, in particular, golf shafts. I have never tried one of Tom's clubs but I am tempted to try the driver and fws. Is this a result of reading Tom's posts? Yes, because the man really knows what he is talking about so I am sure that his clubs reflect this care and attention to detail. So did Tom have a hidden agenda with his posts? I don't know and I don't care because I have learnt a ton reading his posts and if Tom sells a few more clubs than he would have if he had not posted his thoughts, then I am fine with that too. What I value is his expertise and contributions to this board.

All that said, I love to tinker with equipment and found that I play the best with drivers that feel right to me. I have not been fit into my current driver but fell into a particular shaft when goofing around Golftown and it just feels right and also provides me with proper performance. So I am one of those folks Tom often refers to needing to be fit based on feel preferences more so than numbers.

Keep it up, Tom!

[wetdogsmell]

Isn't swingweight more of a personal preference measurement? It's not like without the lead tape the ball will stick to the clubhead. I'm not trying to be abrasive or anything.... I'm a hack and might not understand all the details.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

Swingweight is a totally preference thing. But virtually every golfer in the world "prefers" a swingweight well above the C3 or whatever you'd get by hacking 3" off the shaft of a typical 46-1/2" driver and leaving the clubhead weight alone. I'm good with anywhere from D0-D1 or so up to maybe D8 on a driver. But go another 15+ SW points lighter than that and I have no ability to swing such a club normally. And I'm not even very picky in my SW preferences compared to most people.

[myspinonit]

[quote name='practicetee' timestamp='1356014052' post='6095339']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1355964816' post='6093423']
Those who want custom fit clubs have no shortage of custom clubmakers to choose from.

Those who want the latest name brand driver and don't care if it fits them optimally have no shortage of retailers to choose from.

People pick what they like and the option that is preferred by the greatest number of people exhibits the highest degree of profitability and the highest degree of growth. This is an example of the market working as it is supposed to.

I respect mr wishon as I think we all do, but I think it is important to note that this article is in support of his business model. While his business model is great for him I think we should not ignore the fact that a healthy economy is one where people circulate the same dollar amongst themselves to a relatively high degree (im not saying to the highest degree), and one of the ways this is possible is through the availability of mass produced consumer goods, like golf clubs.

These large publicly traded golf companies employ a lot of people, and while it's great to support the little guy fighting for his share in the marketplace like mr wishon, I think we should remember that the employees of taylormade and callaway have a right to work and feed their families too.

So, in conclusion, while I hope people who want custom golf equipment continue to choose wishon, I don't think that this should be the sole model by which people purchase their golf equipment. The combination of big markets and a climate that allows successful companies to grow into large entities that employ a lot of people and benefit a lot of shareholders has created a lot of wealth for a lot of us in the western world. I think that we shouldn't get so excited over our perception of what free enterprise is that we forget everything that big business has to offer.
[/quote]


Completely agree with you here; while I agree with many of the points raised within the article, it also reads like an informercial for Wishon Golf.
[/quote]

Firstly, Tom Wishon, thank you for all your great posts here. I've enjoyed them and learned from them.

Thrillhouse, you said " [b]Those who want custom fit clubs have no shortage of custom clubmakers to choose from.[/b]" (Ed: " In error I originally cut/pasted the sentence about choce of retailers. Oops.)

I don't think that's the case, at least here, in Vancouver, the third biggest city in Canada. Neither of the clubfitter assocation links Tom provided have a rep here. I've seen questions in the year I've been on these forums asking about a fiiter. There used to be a local fellow that did some great custom fittings that unfortunately went out of business last Spring. He did make custom stuff, including Wishon products and others. Good guy, caring, reasonable in price. Not high tech but usually bang on with his selections. I don't know of another one.

There are two GolfTec locations here and I used one for a full fitting and purchase with some great results, some misses on shafts in my opinion. But that experience did allow me to try out a variety of clubs and shafts from many makers, with a monitor by the fitter, including the great Aerotech shafts that fixed my thumb arthritis pain. The fitter introduced me to two club brands that are now in my bag that I wouldn't likely have been even shown at the big box option here.

There is a huge bias in what the average joe gets shown to buy at a big box, especially if he goes in with the "help me, I have money" approach. e.g. It has never been suggested to me to try a TEE club at any GolfTown, when I was asking for suggestions on woods or hybrids, even though they WERE stocking them. (I gather from another GolfWrxer's recent inquiry they won't be carrying them now.) Too bad. I saw the display but they were usually by the lower end makes (full bag sets etc.) so I assumed they weren't worth looking at. I also had one of GT's staff when I was looking at hybrids a year ago admit that he really could only speak well on playability of TMag clubs when I wanted to try Mizuno hybrids as TMag was what he had in his bag as a sponsored tournament player.

I don't know if I'll need to go in for a full fitting again, as I expect my irons to last a long time and I'm learning a lot more about my own game. And from GolfWrx to help make some selective decisions on my own, or help me consider other club/ shaft options before I get into the big box and start trying out clubs.

But for folks who want that option, or just don't have clue of their needs, they do need some impartial professional expertise in my opinion, with a variety of choices. And around here, the options are very limited.

[wetdogsmell]

Thanks for the explanation! Unfortunately it brings up another question

Will the average golfer (not golfwrx'er) see much difference in performance when it comes to swingweight or shaft characteristics? Besides the shafts being too long for a regular sized person will the minor variances in stiffness/kickpoint etc produce better results when in the hands of a chump like me who doesn't have a reliable swing?

One of the previous Wishon articles on shafts seemed to describe the influence to be somewhat limited and really only for highspeed/late release swings. Again.... Maybe i'm not understanding things properly.

[dplasters]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1356023847' post='6096119']
Thanks for the explanation! Unfortunately it brings up another question

Will the average golfer (not golfwrx'er) see much difference in performance when it comes to swingweight or shaft characteristics? Besides the shafts being too long for a regular sized person will the minor variances in stiffness/kickpoint etc produce better results when in the hands of a chump like me who doesn't have a reliable swing?

One of the previous Wishon articles on shafts seemed to describe the influence to be somewhat limited and really only for highspeed/late release swings. Again.... Maybe i'm not understanding things properly.
[/quote]

The answer is likely "it depends". The person we are talking about likely has a swing that changes frequently anyway. Perhaps on some days the swingweight would be perfect for them and on others it would magnify all their swing errors. Its tough to know. What I think is always problematic is large gaps/changes in SW. So your irons are D0 and your driver is C3.. that WILL feel different and lead you to swing your driver differently than your irons (and probably not for the better). Consistency through your set in SW would be desirable for any golfer I think. Thus the problem of 43.5" 3 woods and 46" long drivers. Making them playable suddenly means a big drop in swingweight all else equal.

[moonshine]

I agree paying for knowledge is money well spent. However there is a great and reputable fitter near me and the studio time is not cheap. My problem is I have to purchase his brands, of which wishon is included. He will not alter or improve my existing set! Bad business model too IMO and I would love to play wishon equipment, but not because my fitter tells me I have to.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='zakkozuchowski' timestamp='1355943084' post='6091773']
[color=#000000]Do NOT just blindly go see a clubmaker who you have not vetted. The good clubmakers will never mind golfers doing an investigation, because they are confident of their skills and experience.[/color]

[color=#000000]Do this for your next equipment purchase and you will avoid Kevin Cook’s frustration with modern golf equipment. If you do, you will end up with golf clubs that are far better for your game than what you can buy within the golf industry’s current business model.[/color]

[color=#000000][i]Tom Wishon is a contributing writer for GolfWRX.com. is His views do not necessarily represent the views of GolfWRX.[/i][/color]
[/quote]

Many of Tom Wishon's statements are spot on. The most important IMO, however, is the buyer needs to educate himself before buying. My Grandfather told me as a child on the farm, "never ask questions you don't already have a semblance of answers for". That's the only way you can possibly recognize strangers selling baloney vs real experience. Give up that responsibility, expect problems and "poor me" feelings to increase, not to mention lousy golf.

[Imp]

[quote name='dplasters' timestamp='1356019970' post='6095769']
I think being 'fit' can easily bring about tension and nerves in people. No one wants to be judged.. and when you are a 20+ capper I'd think the last thing you'd really want to do is stand next to a guy telling you that you really only hit your drive 195 (and 35 yards right) and that your swing is the least repeatable thing he has ever seen.
[/quote]*Rolls back tape. Cue 4 years ago at Golfers Warehouse* (Apologies for the sidetracking)

I was looking for a new driver, having only picked the game back up 1 year previous. I went in, tried some different drivers in what they had for shot tracking, and was told "you don't need a new club, you need lessons".

At that point it was Ego vs truth. I accepted what it was and said ok, if you're serious, let's do it.

So, I went and signed up for 4 lessons. Met with the trainer. Did a few swings/warmup with him so he could see how I swing. He asked what I wanted to acomplish (repeatable swings) and he said "OK, let's meet up at 5 next Monday." Paid for the 4 lessons and had a schedule. Good to go.

I show up at 4:50, doors locked. I wait around until 5:20. Nothing. Call, leave message.

Nothing. Not even a call back.

Call back Wednesday. He picks up. "OK, let's meet up at 4:30 next Tuesday".

I show up at 4:20. Buildings locked. Wait until 4:45. Tried calling him. Car pulls up. Someone else there to use the facility at 5ish. Talking "Oh, he teaches high school golf at RICC. He's late sometimes." I call, leave message to shedule again. 2-3 days go by, no return call.

So I call once more, "mailbox is full".

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. No curteousy to call to change time or say he's going to be late? He actually charged the lessons. I had to do a chargeback on the card.

That was my introduction to taking lessons with a PGA Certified Instructor. And only lessons I've 'tried' to take. I reported him, and nary a recognition from the PGA either.

When you have people stealing money for services not rendered PGA Certified, what's a regular joe to do?

I equate the same thing with getting fitted. How do I know what I'm paying for, I won't be ripped off? I know it's a really poor attitude to have, but having been 'ripped off' (multiple time and attempted $$), how does one know that these 'small shops' aren't doing the same thing?

Reputation? Call around?

Oh, keep in mind the PGA Certified Instructor was highly regarded too.

v/r,

--kC

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='myspinonit' timestamp='1356023707' post='6096111']
[quote name='practicetee' timestamp='1356014052' post='6095339']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1355964816' post='6093423']
Those who want custom fit clubs have no shortage of custom clubmakers to choose from.

Those who want the latest name brand driver and don't care if it fits them optimally have no shortage of retailers to choose from.

People pick what they like and the option that is preferred by the greatest number of people exhibits the highest degree of profitability and the highest degree of growth. This is an example of the market working as it is supposed to.

I respect mr wishon as I think we all do, but I think it is important to note that this article is in support of his business model. While his business model is great for him I think we should not ignore the fact that a healthy economy is one where people circulate the same dollar amongst themselves to a relatively high degree (im not saying to the highest degree), and one of the ways this is possible is through the availability of mass produced consumer goods, like golf clubs.

These large publicly traded golf companies employ a lot of people, and while it's great to support the little guy fighting for his share in the marketplace like mr wishon, I think we should remember that the employees of taylormade and callaway have a right to work and feed their families too.

So, in conclusion, while I hope people who want custom golf equipment continue to choose wishon, I don't think that this should be the sole model by which people purchase their golf equipment. The combination of big markets and a climate that allows successful companies to grow into large entities that employ a lot of people and benefit a lot of shareholders has created a lot of wealth for a lot of us in the western world. I think that we shouldn't get so excited over our perception of what free enterprise is that we forget everything that big business has to offer.
[/quote]


Completely agree with you here; while I agree with many of the points raised within the article, it also reads like an informercial for Wishon Golf.
[/quote]

Firstly, Tom Wishon, thank you for all your great posts here. I've enjoyed them and learned from them.

Thrillhouse, you said " [b]Those who want custom fit clubs have no shortage of custom clubmakers to choose from.[/b]" (Ed: " In error I originally cut/pasted the sentence about choce of retailers. Oops.)

I don't think that's the case, at least here, in Vancouver, the third biggest city in Canada. Neither of the clubfitter assocation links Tom provided have a rep here. I've seen questions in the year I've been on these forums asking about a fiiter. There used to be a local fellow that did some great custom fittings that unfortunately went out of business last Spring. He did make custom stuff, including Wishon products and others. Good guy, caring, reasonable in price. Not high tech but usually bang on with his selections. I don't know of another one.

There are two GolfTec locations here and I used one for a full fitting and purchase with some great results, some misses on shafts in my opinion. But that experience did allow me to try out a variety of clubs and shafts from many makers, with a monitor by the fitter, including the great Aerotech shafts that fixed my thumb arthritis pain. The fitter introduced me to two club brands that are now in my bag that I wouldn't likely have been even shown at the big box option here.

There is a huge bias in what the average joe gets shown to buy at a big box, especially if he goes in with the "help me, I have money" approach. e.g. It has never been suggested to me to try a TEE club at any GolfTown, when I was asking for suggestions on woods or hybrids, even though they WERE stocking them. (I gather from another GolfWrxer's recent inquiry they won't be carrying them now.) Too bad. I saw the display but they were usually by the lower end makes (full bag sets etc.) so I assumed they weren't worth looking at. I also had one of GT's staff when I was looking at hybrids a year ago admit that he really could only speak well on playability of TMag clubs when I wanted to try Mizuno hybrids as TMag was what he had in his bag as a sponsored tournament player.

I don't know if I'll need to go in for a full fitting again, as I expect my irons to last a long time and I'm learning a lot more about my own game. And from GolfWrx to help make some selective decisions on my own, or help me consider other club/ shaft options before I get into the big box and start trying out clubs.

But for folks who want that option, or just don't have clue of their needs, they do need some impartial professional expertise in my opinion, with a variety of choices. And around here, the options are very limited.
[/quote]

I just did a google search for custom fit golf equipment in vancouver and came up with a couple of dozen results. Now, maybe all those places don't fit golf equipment in a way that you like, or maybe you have tried several and didn't think they were very good, but to say it isn't available in your area appears to simply not be the case.

[Skaffa77]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356025578' post='6096251']
Many of Tom Wishon's statements are spot on. The most important IMO, however, is the buyer needs to educate himself before buying. My Grandfather told me as a child on the farm, "never ask questions you don't already have a semblance of answers for". That's the only way you can possibly recognize strangers selling baloney vs real experience. Give up that responsibility, expect problems and "poor me" feelings to increase, not to mention lousy golf.
[/quote]

I agree. Recent example...I had a plumbing issue...leaking water through the main level's subfloor to my basement. Since this is my first home and I've never had a plumbing issue, I called one of the larger plumbing companies that supposedly has a good reputation. After the fact, I found out that I paid 300%-400% over the industry average for those repairs.

Stupid me for not being educated and knowing better.

[myspinonit]

[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1356025268' post='6096235']
I agree paying for knowledge is money well spent. However there is a great and reputable fitter near me and the studio time is not cheap. My problem is I have to purchase his brands, of which wishon is included. He will not alter or improve my existing set! Bad business model too IMO and I would love to play wishon equipment, but not because my fitter tells me I have to.
[/quote]

Hard for me to consider that "reputable" from the limited info provided. That is not acting like a fitter in my opinion. If he really was a "fitter" with the customer's needs at hand he would adjust your present stuff inf necessary. e.g Decide your current driver head was fine but just change the shaft. Or correct the lie on your existing irons etc. . Does that also mean he wouldn't go back a year later to stuff he sold you and adjust it if your swing or strenth changed? Sheesh!

[Super Tuna]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1356023847' post='6096119']
Thanks for the explanation! Unfortunately it brings up another question

[b]Will the average golfer (not golfwrx'er) see much difference in performance when it comes to swingweight or shaft characteristics? Besides the shafts being too long for a regular sized person will the minor variances in stiffness/kickpoint etc produce better results when in the hands of a chump like me who doesn't have a reliable swing?[/b]
[/quote]

Yes. In fact, it will make more difference to you then it would, for example, to Station2Station (not trying to single you out here. I just happen to know from some other conversations that you're a lower cap and a good ball striker as well).

I find it interesting how many times posters in this thread keep saying "inconsistent swing" from higher cap players. People are not nearly as inconsistent with their swing as one would believe from this thread. Even in the high cappers speed, path and release are quite consistent (depending on you're version of consistent. If 5 yards either way is too much of a hurdle then we're not on the same page). What is inconsistent is people's tempo and that's usually what murders them. Too much snap, too slow, whatever else. They just can't get the feel that day and thus come the inconsistent [i]results. [/i]That's something that a good fitter/builder can work with and help one out.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1355985723' post='6094705']
[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1355984500' post='6094675']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1355960256' post='6093105']
Most golfers who take the game seriously will choose the proper equipment or get fit at some point.

Off the rack is close enough for everyone else.

To think otherwise is unrealistic.
[/quote]

Maybe you missed the entire point of Tom Wishon's article.

The fact that a large proportion of golfers have bought "off the rack" has been the reason that those same golfers get frustrated or, worse, give up, because they have been given poor static, dimensional fitting advice to begin with.

The manufacturers have been given a free ride and have relied on retailers to fit.

The first manufacturer that takes responsibility for fitting (not including Ping) will grab a good chunk of the market AND will grab some solid loyalty in the process. Ping have proved it is possible yet there is plenty of opportunity to do what they do - only better.
[/quote]

No, I got the point. I just dont truly believe that properly fit clubs will spare all of these golfers the pain and sorrow of being frustrated with their golf games. Is fitting beneficial? Of course. Will it make a golfer who isnt completely dedicated to improving their game better? Probably not.

Im no fitter, but id bet that the vast majority of typical golfers out there would be just as frustrated with their games whether or not their clubs were custom fit for them or not. Fitting isnt a magic bullet. The only way to get good at golf is to play and practice a ton. And that goes back to my first point. "Most golfers who take the game seriously will choose the proper equipment or get fit at some point." I just dont believe the typical guy who just goes out there and yucks it up once in a while just wont see any [i]major [/i]benefits from being fit.

Take a good golfer and give him an off the rack set, and he'll still be good. Give a poor golfer a custom set, and he'll still be a poor golfer.
[/quote]

The one (and I believe only) thing that getting PROPERLY fit for clubs does, is let you know where the problem lies. If your clubs fit you perfectly, then that slice/hook/etc is ALL YOU!

BT

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1356019358' post='6095725']
[quote name='practicetee' timestamp='1356014052' post='6095339']
Completely agree with you here; while I agree with many of the points raised within the article, it also reads like an informercial for Wishon Golf.
[/quote]

I'm sorry if you get the impression that the reason I share what I know about golf clubs and choose to work in the custom fitting side of the industry chiefly to make money. At the same time, sure, I can see in today's world how people could get that impression from reading my opinion article. I wrote it because I could see that what Kevin Crook was saying in his frustration was something that tons of other golfers have come to believe about buying golf clubs too.

If making the most money and having solid career security in the golf industry were at the very top of my priority list, I would have taken one of the offers I was so fortunate to receive at different points in my working life from a few of the big OEM companies to design for them or to head up all of their club development. It sure would be nice to have that strong six figure salary, stock options, a staff of numerous engineers at my bidding and the security that goes along with such a position.

But I ended up not accepting any of those opportunities because in my work over the years I learned that accurate full specs professional clubfitting IS BETTER FOR GOLFERS WHO WANT NOTHING MORE THAN TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO PLAY A LITTLE BETTER AND PLAY TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY. It IS a better business model for GOLFERS, but in a few ways it has not been a better business model for me and my family personally.

Because the marketing of the large golf companies has convinced golfers that buying a heavily marketed brand club off the rack is better than going to a one man clubmaking shop, a company like mine struggles to grow because we find ourselves constantly swimming upstream against a very strong current. We're paying all our bills on time but by no means are we even remotely thinking that we're going to be rich. I'm 62 now and retirement is not in immediate sight because in choosing to work in this side of the business, I accept the fact that when retirement does come, I like many will hope that Social Security and Medicare will still be there. There is no second home or 4 vacations to golf resorts each year on my retirement horizon because of the business model I have chosen to pursue.

I'm no different than most in wishing I had more money, more job security and no fears about retirement. But I also know that no matter I was fortunate to have my work noticed to receive some opportunities to work for a big company, I knew down deep I just could not get excited doing what I do for a company with a business model to package up everything I might do into standard made clubs to be displayed on racks in thousands of retail stores so the company could sell the most volume of clubs possible.

I know that is a business model that cannot provide golfers with clubs that give them a better chance to play better, enjoy the game a little more and get the best value for their club buying money.

But you know what? No matter that I encounter a lot of golfers who seem to not understand that the knowledge and experience I share is done to truly help golfers learn the facts about golf clubs and enjoy the game a little more, I really have enjoyed and do enjoy what I have been able to do in my working life. In many ways I have been able to do things and learn things related to golf clubs that I probably would never have been able to do or learn had I accepted one of those opportunities to work for a big golf company.

So at the end of the day, I understand how some can think I am only out to make more money when I share what I know about golf clubs, but down deep inside me I know that I have a real passion for sharing what I know simply because it is better for golfers.

TOM
[/quote]

Im not saying that you are only out to make money, I appreciate your passion for what you do and I appreciate that you want to do it your own way, but I stand by what I said in my original response. This article is in defense of your business model, and that business model, like most, reflects your need as an emerging firm to find a niche in the marketplace so that you can be viable. And to be honest I say kudos for that, its not an easy thing to do.

And while I understand that you chose to run your own company your own way because you didn't want to go work for a big firm, the fact remains that in your business with the level of profitability that exists there was no way that you were going to be able to gain the level of capitalization that would be required to compete with the Callaways and Taylormades of the world. You had to find a niche market in order to survive, and you found that niche market in high quality custom fit equipment.

Anyway im not going to keep repeating myself, anyone who cares what I think can read my original post and anyone who doesn't can ignore it. I think i've made it clear that I respect your knowledge in this area and respect your ability as a businessperson, I just don't really like when someone pitches their product by saying "this is what is wrong with the successful firms" rather than "this is why you should buy my great product". If there was something wrong with what the big firms were doing the market would be working inefficiently (from an economic standpoint, not from a "people don't buy what I think is best for them" standpoint), and I don't see how that is the case. Thats all.

[myspinonit]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356026197' post='6096297']
[quote name='myspinonit' timestamp='1356023707' post='6096111']
[quote name='practicetee' timestamp='1356014052' post='6095339']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1355964816' post='6093423']
Those who want custom fit clubs have no shortage of custom clubmakers to choose from.

Those who want the latest name brand driver and don't care if it fits them optimally have no shortage of retailers to choose from.

People pick what they like and the option that is preferred by the greatest number of people exhibits the highest degree of profitability and the highest degree of growth. This is an example of the market working as it is supposed to.

I respect mr wishon as I think we all do, but I think it is important to note that this article is in support of his business model. While his business model is great for him I think we should not ignore the fact that a healthy economy is one where people circulate the same dollar amongst themselves to a relatively high degree (im not saying to the highest degree), and one of the ways this is possible is through the availability of mass produced consumer goods, like golf clubs.

These large publicly traded golf companies employ a lot of people, and while it's great to support the little guy fighting for his share in the marketplace like mr wishon, I think we should remember that the employees of taylormade and callaway have a right to work and feed their families too.

So, in conclusion, while I hope people who want custom golf equipment continue to choose wishon, I don't think that this should be the sole model by which people purchase their golf equipment. The combination of big markets and a climate that allows successful companies to grow into large entities that employ a lot of people and benefit a lot of shareholders has created a lot of wealth for a lot of us in the western world. I think that we shouldn't get so excited over our perception of what free enterprise is that we forget everything that big business has to offer.
[/quote]


Completely agree with you here; while I agree with many of the points raised within the article, it also reads like an informercial for Wishon Golf.
[/quote]

Firstly, Tom Wishon, thank you for all your great posts here. I've enjoyed them and learned from them.

Thrillhouse, you said " [b]Those who want custom fit clubs have no shortage of custom clubmakers to choose from.[/b]" (Ed: " In error I originally cut/pasted the sentence about choce of retailers. Oops.)

I don't think that's the case, at least here, in Vancouver, the third biggest city in Canada. Neither of the clubfitter assocation links Tom provided have a rep here. I've seen questions in the year I've been on these forums asking about a fiiter. There used to be a local fellow that did some great custom fittings that unfortunately went out of business last Spring. He did make custom stuff, including Wishon products and others. Good guy, caring, reasonable in price. Not high tech but usually bang on with his selections. I don't know of another one.

There are two GolfTec locations here and I used one for a full fitting and purchase with some great results, some misses on shafts in my opinion. But that experience did allow me to try out a variety of clubs and shafts from many makers, with a monitor by the fitter, including the great Aerotech shafts that fixed my thumb arthritis pain. The fitter introduced me to two club brands that are now in my bag that I wouldn't likely have been even shown at the big box option here.

There is a huge bias in what the average joe gets shown to buy at a big box, especially if he goes in with the "help me, I have money" approach. e.g. It has never been suggested to me to try a TEE club at any GolfTown, when I was asking for suggestions on woods or hybrids, even though they WERE stocking them. (I gather from another GolfWrxer's recent inquiry they won't be carrying them now.) Too bad. I saw the display but they were usually by the lower end makes (full bag sets etc.) so I assumed they weren't worth looking at. I also had one of GT's staff when I was looking at hybrids a year ago admit that he really could only speak well on playability of TMag clubs when I wanted to try Mizuno hybrids as TMag was what he had in his bag as a sponsored tournament player.

I don't know if I'll need to go in for a full fitting again, as I expect my irons to last a long time and I'm learning a lot more about my own game. And from GolfWrx to help make some selective decisions on my own, or help me consider other club/ shaft options before I get into the big box and start trying out clubs.

But for folks who want that option, or just don't have clue of their needs, they do need some impartial professional expertise in my opinion, with a variety of choices. And around here, the options are very limited.
[/quote]

I just did a google search for custom fit golf equipment in vancouver and came up with a couple of dozen results. Now, maybe all those places don't fit golf equipment in a way that you like, or maybe you have tried several and didn't think they were very good, but to say it isn't available in your area appears to simply not be the case.
[/quote]
Thanks for doing that... and I should have done a Google too before posting as I hadn't looked for a few months. I put in the same words. At a review the only one on that list that popped up for me that does link back to an existing local option besides GolfTec and GolfTown was a private course. Not sure how extensive their options might be as for sure some courses do have fitting options for one brand, but not non-OEMs.

I wasn't trying to pick on you for that in the quote. I value the input your posts provide. If it came out that way, I'm sorry.

I still feel the point I was trying to make is correct, that there is a shortage of options, not no options. So to get a broad spectrum of options tailored to the golfer is diffificult, in this local market at least. Cheers.

[jaskanski]

Good points being made by lots of folks here. In principle, I share Tom' ethos of custom fitting being the best route to good golfing, but in contrast I don't agree that any other route into connecting golfers and equipment is "harmful" (besides counterfeit clubs of course). To those who shun the opportunity to get fitted, with whatever excuse (there's nobody in my area etc.), the genral rule of thumb is [b][i]you will get a level of fitting and expertise equivalent to the effort you're prepared to put in yourself. [/i][/b]Like Tom said, that means doing a bit of homework and checking, phoning, asking for references from fitters and club makers. If it means going the extra mile, then you need to weigh up the pros and cons.
But I disagree with the statement that the way clubs are being sold has harmed golf. It hasn't. It may well have harmed someones own business model (simply for the cost comparison to the consumer), but that's business. If you can't connect your principles to the consumer at a level that will bring them to your door, then an alternative line of thinking might be in order.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1356023847' post='6096119']
Thanks for the explanation! Unfortunately it brings up another question

Will the average golfer (not golfwrx'er) see much difference in performance when it comes to swingweight or shaft characteristics? Besides the shafts being too long for a regular sized person will the minor variances in stiffness/kickpoint etc produce better results when in the hands of a chump like me who doesn't have a reliable swing?

One of the previous Wishon articles on shafts seemed to describe the influence to be somewhat limited and really only for highspeed/late release swings. Again.... Maybe i'm not understanding things properly.
[/quote]

The answer is a qualified "yes". Even with properly fit clubs most beginners are not likely to notice subtle differences. Not because it's not noticeable, but because the beginner swing is so inconsistent, and the beginner doesn't know what to look for or expect. That's the reason it's so important to do your home work on who says he's a fitter, and who is a professional fitter; to increase the odds of finding a "qualified" trustworthy professional. And, the "qualified" trustworthy professional is not likely to be found if seeking the down low "cheap" price. You have to trust he knows what he's doing, so when you improve your swing mechanics, you'll see the results.

[farmer]

The weakness in Mr. Wishon's post is that back in the day of 43" drivers, wood woods and steel shafts, non-jacked lofts--people didn't hit those clubs worth a damn either. Everybody had 2-pw irons, but it was considered a near miracle to effectively hit a 2 iron. Many, many players in those days hit 3 woods off the tee rather than driver. I have my set of mid-sixties Haig Ultras in the barn, and I assure you that a modern 4 iron is easier to hit than my old Haigs. And I loved those irons. To Peppers post, if you only ask questions for which you know the answer, you will never learn anything. Farmers, in my considerable experience, ask questions all the time, searching for knowledge.

[Skaffa77]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1356028960' post='6096523']
To Peppers post, if you only ask questions for which you know the answer, you will never learn anything. Farmers, in my considerable experience, ask questions all the time, searching for knowledge.
[/quote]

I think you are reading it too literally. Basic premise...do some homework and be knowledgeable instead of always relying on someone else for the answers. It doesn't mean you have the know the answer or be the expert, but it does provide a foundation to help you make a better decision.

[wetdogsmell]

I still can't wrap my head around this.... What is a club fitter going to put in a 20 handicappers hands that is going to be significantly different than a standard set of clubs? It seems like if you have clubs that [i]roughly [/i]fit your body, the $$ would be much better spent on getting a few lessons to get rid of major swing faults.

I would argue that the focus on gear (both big boys and custom) is "harming" peoples enjoyment of golf. It shouldn't be TMAG vs Wishon it should be Gear vs Lessons.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1356025268' post='6096235']
I agree paying for knowledge is money well spent. However there is a great and reputable fitter near me and the studio time is not cheap. My problem is I have to purchase his brands, of which wishon is included. He will not alter or improve my existing set! Bad business model too IMO and I would love to play wishon equipment, but not because my fitter tells me I have to.
[/quote]

Kinda like wanting an established slat patio cover turned into a much heavier solid cover. After talking to three contractors, none would do it; all had the same reason. They don't want their work to be dependent on the quality of work already in place; made complete sense.

IMO same can be said for clubs and why it's important to know what you need and conduct homework on who's qualified. If all you're in need of is loft and lie adjustments, maybe lengthening or shortening, than you should look for someone with a quality Mitchel or like, and rudimentary club building skills. If, however, you want to be properly fit, the result might say, you're current clubs are not properly suited for you're skill. The right answer should not be determined by cost, but by fitting. That's why trust and a qualified professional fitter is important, and finding that person might not be geographically convenient.

[jaskanski]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1356029656' post='6096573']
I still can't wrap my head around this.... What is a club fitter going to put in a 20 handicappers hands that is going to be significantly different than a standard set of clubs? It seems like if you have clubs that [i]roughly [/i]fit your body, the $$ would be much better spent on getting a few lessons to get rid of major swing faults.

I would argue that the focus on gear (both big boys and custom) is "harming" peoples enjoyment of golf. It shouldn't be TMAG vs Wishon it should be Gear vs Lessons.
[/quote]

Well, it's a simple matter of percentages. If the 20 handicapper doesn't plan on playing a whole bunch of times a years and isn't really bothered about finding equipment to play better golf, then the higher percentage of their time and money should be given to the OTR solution.
On the other hand, if the 20 handicapper aspires to play better golf and lower their handicap, they have a higher percentage chance of doing this by finding equipment better suited to their game. How do they do this? Well, you stand a better percentage of hitting good shot by finding the centre of the club face. Most high handicappers struggle to do this simple task with much consistency regardless of their their swing ability. And you stand a better percentage of finding the centre of the face with a correctly fitted for length and lie golf club. Likewise, the percentages play in your favour if you receive the correct advice on what equipment works best for which person. Percentages and not guesswork. Lessons are great and all, but sometimes all the schooling in the world isn't going to convince somebody that using a teaspoon to shovel snow is just as effective as a snow plough.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1356028960' post='6096523']
The weakness in Mr. Wishon's post is that back in the day of 43" drivers, wood woods and steel shafts, non-jacked lofts--people didn't hit those clubs worth a damn either. Everybody had 2-pw irons, but it was considered a near miracle to effectively hit a 2 iron. Many, many players in those days hit 3 woods off the tee rather than driver. I have my set of mid-sixties Haig Ultras in the barn, and I assure you that a modern 4 iron is easier to hit than my old Haigs. And I loved those irons. To Peppers post, if you only ask questions for which you know the answer, you will never learn anything. Farmers, in my considerable experience, ask questions all the time, searching for knowledge.
[/quote]

To some people that played golf in the 43" driver days, you're right, but to better golfers, that was not the prevailing attitude, including 2 iron. I have an old set of 2-PW butter knife blades, and played with persimmon woods; still scored near my normal range. And, I still effectively use a 17* 2 iron. Also, your comment regarding "asking questions" suggests you left out a "key" word in my statement.

I spent a good portion of my childhood on a mid-western dairy farm. Not all farmers (people) reason or solve problems the same. We never called professionals of any kind to fix... we had to do it ourselves, due to limited money. You're correct, farmers always search for knowledge, but in my day, that knowledge often came from a trusting neighbor farmer that had years of experience, that possibly learned it from another that came before him.