Comparing hogan jack tiger

Crab Daddy · December 21, 2012

[quote name='geesecougar2' timestamp='1355868889' post='6087723']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1355865411' post='6087467']
nice post geesecougar2. I'm also curious if putts per green in regulation has changed much over time...particularly with the greens being so diff over time.
[/quote]

Yeah, it's a problem because GIR putting stats only go back to 2002. If there were more stats available going further back we could probably arrive at a more definitive answer. However it is amazing how many greens Jack hit even into the tail end of his career.

But at the end of the day, I think any player on the Mt. Rushmore of golf (Jones, Hogan, Nicklaus, Woods) can beat any other player on Mt. Rushmore on any given Sunday. Like I said earlier in the thread, it probably comes down to course, weather, setup, and luck (namely, draining bombs and holing pitches). I mean, isn't it pointless to ask whether Alexander or Genghis Khan was the greater conquerer, or whether Augustus or Charlemagne was the greater emperor?

But for now, I will defer to the words of the great Billy Casper:

[url="http://youtu.be/JtUjBHFM7uQ?t=1m34s"]http://youtu.be/JtUjBHFM7uQ?t=1m34s[/url]

Edit: Embedding not working but Casper speaks at 1:34
[/quote]

Exactly! Genghis Khan, and it's not even a close second.

'53 Precision · December 21, 2012

[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1355580828' post='6072375']
I'm a Ft. Worth boy, love Hogan. [color=#FF0000]People forget he could never beat Nelson until after he retired[/color]...Nelson might be most underrated player out of the games greats.
[/quote]

Myth, symantics or a flat out untruth...perpetuated over the decades? Mr. Nelson retired in 1946 and Mr. Hogan won his first tournament in 1938 and won 16 official events in that period, Mr. Hogan obviously won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing...several times...meaning he beat Nelson before he retired. Hogan may not have beaten Nelson in tournaments in which they were paired together in the final round, (pairings were not made as they are now, based on standings after three rounds meaning a hot, in contention player could be paired with one who is not playing so well so thinking of the head to head aspect as we do now is not applicable) but Mr. Hogan definitely won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing which means he did beat Mr. Nelson before prior to Nelson's retirement. I concur that Nelson is underated, but he was not unbeatable by Hogan in tournaments in which he and Hogan both played.

jtotto83 · December 24, 2012

[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1356148972' post='6103263']
[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1355580828' post='6072375']
I'm a Ft. Worth boy, love Hogan. [color=#FF0000]People forget he could never beat Nelson until after he retired[/color]...Nelson might be most underrated player out of the games greats.
[/quote]

Myth, symantics or a flat out untruth...perpetuated over the decades? Mr. Nelson retired in 1946 and Mr. Hogan won his first tournament in 1938 and won 16 official events in that period, Mr. Hogan obviously won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing...several times...meaning he beat Nelson before he retired. Hogan may not have beaten Nelson in tournaments in which they were paired together in the final round, (pairings were not made as they are now, based on standings after three rounds meaning a hot, in contention player could be paired with one who is not playing so well so thinking of the head to head aspect as we do now is not applicable) but Mr. Hogan definitely won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing which means he did beat Mr. Nelson before prior to Nelson's retirement. I concur that Nelson is underated, but he was not unbeatable by Hogan in tournaments in which he and Hogan both played.
[/quote]

I'm not saying he never beat him but Nelson was considered the better player while they were both playing full time and Hogan didn't start winning majors until Nelson retired. I'm not saying Hogan's not great, but Nelson could be in the conversation too...

'53 Precision · December 24, 2012

[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1356401209' post='6113791']
[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1356148972' post='6103263']
[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1355580828' post='6072375']
I'm a Ft. Worth boy, love Hogan. [color=#FF0000]People forget he could never beat Nelson until after he retired[/color]...Nelson might be most underrated player out of the games greats.
[/quote]

Myth, symantics or a flat out untruth...perpetuated over the decades? Mr. Nelson retired in 1946 and Mr. Hogan won his first tournament in 1938 and won 16 official events in that period, Mr. Hogan obviously won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing...several times...meaning he beat Nelson before he retired. Hogan may not have beaten Nelson in tournaments in which they were paired together in the final round, (pairings were not made as they are now, based on standings after three rounds meaning a hot, in contention player could be paired with one who is not playing so well so thinking of the head to head aspect as we do now is not applicable) but Mr. Hogan definitely won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing which means he did beat Mr. Nelson before prior to Nelson's retirement. I concur that Nelson is underated, but he was not unbeatable by Hogan in tournaments in which he and Hogan both played.
[/quote]

I'm not saying he never beat him but Nelson was considered the better player while they were both playing full time and Hogan didn't start winning majors until Nelson retired. I'm not saying Hogan's not great, but Nelson could be in the conversation too...
[/quote]

Actually, that was an exact quote of what you said...but you are correct in the statement that Hogan did not win a major until Nelson retired, and I agree Nelson should be in the conversation, although many think he won the majority of his tournaments against weak fields due to the war, I don't necessarily hold that opinion, on any given week Demaret, Hogan, Snead or others would show up to a tournament and Nelson beat them a lot of weeks, 11 in a row, and 18 in one season. He also continued to be competitive long after his retirement, he also teamed with Hogan to defeat the two best amatures in the game in a impromptu match. Nelson was great, why he was included in Hogan Nelson, Snead as the best three players in the game for a very long time. Merry Christmas!

jtotto83 · December 24, 2012

[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1356405132' post='6113955']
[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1356401209' post='6113791']
[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1356148972' post='6103263']
[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1355580828' post='6072375']
I'm a Ft. Worth boy, love Hogan. [color=#FF0000]People forget he could never beat Nelson until after he retired[/color]...Nelson might be most underrated player out of the games greats.
[/quote]

Myth, symantics or a flat out untruth...perpetuated over the decades? Mr. Nelson retired in 1946 and Mr. Hogan won his first tournament in 1938 and won 16 official events in that period, Mr. Hogan obviously won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing...several times...meaning he beat Nelson before he retired. Hogan may not have beaten Nelson in tournaments in which they were paired together in the final round, (pairings were not made as they are now, based on standings after three rounds meaning a hot, in contention player could be paired with one who is not playing so well so thinking of the head to head aspect as we do now is not applicable) but Mr. Hogan definitely won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing which means he did beat Mr. Nelson before prior to Nelson's retirement. I concur that Nelson is underated, but he was not unbeatable by Hogan in tournaments in which he and Hogan both played.
[/quote]

I'm not saying he never beat him but Nelson was considered the better player while they were both playing full time and Hogan didn't start winning majors until Nelson retired. I'm not saying Hogan's not great, but Nelson could be in the conversation too...
[/quote]

Actually, that was an exact quote of what you said...but you are correct in the statement that Hogan did not win a major until Nelson retired, and I agree Nelson should be in the conversation, although many think he won the majority of his tournaments against weak fields due to the war, I don't necessarily hold that opinion, on any given week Demaret, Hogan, Snead or others would show up to a tournament and Nelson beat them a lot of weeks, 11 in a row, and 18 in one season. He also continued to be competitive long after his retirement, he also teamed with Hogan to defeat the two best amatures in the game in a impromptu match. Nelson was great, why he was included in Hogan Nelson, Snead as the best three players in the game for a very long time. Merry Christmas!
[/quote]

Well "never" was a bit of hyperbole, but I would say that head to head Nelson got the better of Hogan for the most part, from Glen Garden to Augusta.....

'53 Precision · December 25, 2012

[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1356410823' post='6114271']
[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1356405132' post='6113955']
[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1356401209' post='6113791']
[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1356148972' post='6103263']
[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1355580828' post='6072375']
I'm a Ft. Worth boy, love Hogan. [color=#FF0000]People forget he could never beat Nelson until after he retired[/color]...Nelson might be most underrated player out of the games greats.
[/quote]

Myth, symantics or a flat out untruth...perpetuated over the decades? Mr. Nelson retired in 1946 and Mr. Hogan won his first tournament in 1938 and won 16 official events in that period, Mr. Hogan obviously won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing...several times...meaning he beat Nelson before he retired. Hogan may not have beaten Nelson in tournaments in which they were paired together in the final round, (pairings were not made as they are now, based on standings after three rounds meaning a hot, in contention player could be paired with one who is not playing so well so thinking of the head to head aspect as we do now is not applicable) but Mr. Hogan definitely won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing which means he did beat Mr. Nelson before prior to Nelson's retirement. I concur that Nelson is underated, but he was not unbeatable by Hogan in tournaments in which he and Hogan both played.
[/quote]

I'm not saying he never beat him but Nelson was considered the better player while they were both playing full time and Hogan didn't start winning majors until Nelson retired. I'm not saying Hogan's not great, but Nelson could be in the conversation too...
[/quote]

Actually, that was an exact quote of what you said...but you are correct in the statement that Hogan did not win a major until Nelson retired, and I agree Nelson should be in the conversation, although many think he won the majority of his tournaments against weak fields due to the war, I don't necessarily hold that opinion, on any given week Demaret, Hogan, Snead or others would show up to a tournament and Nelson beat them a lot of weeks, 11 in a row, and 18 in one season. He also continued to be competitive long after his retirement, he also teamed with Hogan to defeat the two best amatures in the game in a impromptu match. Nelson was great, why he was included in Hogan Nelson, Snead as the best three players in the game for a very long time. Merry Christmas!
[/quote]

Well "never" was a bit of hyperbole, but I would say that head to head Nelson got the better of Hogan for the most part, from Glen Garden to Augusta.....
[/quote]

You are correct sir! Have you played Glen Garden? I am in Crowley and have played it a few times, pretty neat to play where they were first exposed to the game!

jtotto83 · December 25, 2012

[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1356457637' post='6115467']
[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1356410823' post='6114271']
[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1356405132' post='6113955']
[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1356401209' post='6113791']
[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1356148972' post='6103263']
[quote name='jtotto83' timestamp='1355580828' post='6072375']
I'm a Ft. Worth boy, love Hogan. [color=#FF0000]People forget he could never beat Nelson until after he retired[/color]...Nelson might be most underrated player out of the games greats.
[/quote]

Myth, symantics or a flat out untruth...perpetuated over the decades? Mr. Nelson retired in 1946 and Mr. Hogan won his first tournament in 1938 and won 16 official events in that period, Mr. Hogan obviously won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing...several times...meaning he beat Nelson before he retired. Hogan may not have beaten Nelson in tournaments in which they were paired together in the final round, (pairings were not made as they are now, based on standings after three rounds meaning a hot, in contention player could be paired with one who is not playing so well so thinking of the head to head aspect as we do now is not applicable) but Mr. Hogan definitely won tournaments in which Mr. Nelson was playing which means he did beat Mr. Nelson before prior to Nelson's retirement. I concur that Nelson is underated, but he was not unbeatable by Hogan in tournaments in which he and Hogan both played.
[/quote]

I'm not saying he never beat him but Nelson was considered the better player while they were both playing full time and Hogan didn't start winning majors until Nelson retired. I'm not saying Hogan's not great, but Nelson could be in the conversation too...
[/quote]

Actually, that was an exact quote of what you said...but you are correct in the statement that Hogan did not win a major until Nelson retired, and I agree Nelson should be in the conversation, although many think he won the majority of his tournaments against weak fields due to the war, I don't necessarily hold that opinion, on any given week Demaret, Hogan, Snead or others would show up to a tournament and Nelson beat them a lot of weeks, 11 in a row, and 18 in one season. He also continued to be competitive long after his retirement, he also teamed with Hogan to defeat the two best amatures in the game in a impromptu match. Nelson was great, why he was included in Hogan Nelson, Snead as the best three players in the game for a very long time. Merry Christmas!
[/quote]

Well "never" was a bit of hyperbole, but I would say that head to head Nelson got the better of Hogan for the most part, from Glen Garden to Augusta.....
[/quote]

You are correct sir! Have you played Glen Garden? I am in Crowley and have played it a few times, pretty neat to play where they were first exposed to the game!
[/quote]

Sure have. Won my first ever junior tournament there a long time ago! Live in Houston now though. Play at Ridglea with family when I come home...

tembolo1284 · January 17, 2013

So do we put Nelson in the conversation or not?

MizunoJoe · January 18, 2013

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1358453057' post='6247671']
So do we put Nelson in the conversation or not?
[/quote]

Not - his is a lateral shift, steep shaft, hands down the line motion, which no one wants!

tembolo1284 · January 25, 2013

so he was a short hitter but accurate? Hey if it works right? Or was his swing bad according to the general consensus. I honestly have no idea.

tembolo1284 · February 4, 2013

Why do you think hogan wasn't able to beat nelson?

MizunoJoe · February 5, 2013

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360011231' post='6362343']
Why do you think hogan wasn't able to beat nelson?
[/quote]

I don't think that cause I'm pretty sure Nelson was playing in many of Hogan's majors.

tembolo1284 · February 7, 2013

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1360087676' post='6367623']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360011231' post='6362343']
Why do you think hogan wasn't able to beat nelson?
[/quote]

I don't think that cause I'm pretty sure Nelson was playing in many of Hogan's majors.
[/quote]

Nelson won the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardon_Trophy"]Vardon Trophy[/url] in 1939.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Nelson#cite_note-About-14"][14][/url][/sup] He played on the U.S. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryder_Cup"]Ryder Cup[/url] teams in 1937 and 1947 and was non-playing captain of the team in 1965.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Nelson#cite_note-About-14"][14][/url][/sup] After 1946, Nelson curtailed his schedule, although he continued to make regular appearances at The Masters as a competitor, played occasional Tour events, appeared in a few overseas tournaments, and later served as a ceremonial starter for many years

So Nelson retired in 1946 for practical purposes. He would still play the Masters though. Hogan won 51 and 53 masters with Nelson playing in those fields although already 5 and 7 years into his 'retirement'.

All the other majors Hogan won Nelson wasn't in those fields.

So I ask again...why couldn't Hogan beat Nelson earlier before Nelson left the game?

MizunoJoe · February 7, 2013

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360276854' post='6383933']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1360087676' post='6367623']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360011231' post='6362343']
Why do you think hogan wasn't able to beat nelson?
[/quote]

I don't think that cause I'm pretty sure Nelson was playing in many of Hogan's majors.
[/quote]

Nelson won the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardon_Trophy"]Vardon Trophy[/url] in 1939.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Nelson#cite_note-About-14"][14][/url][/sup] He played on the U.S. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryder_Cup"]Ryder Cup[/url] teams in 1937 and 1947 and was non-playing captain of the team in 1965.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Nelson#cite_note-About-14"][14][/url][/sup] After 1946, Nelson curtailed his schedule, although he continued to make regular appearances at The Masters as a competitor, played occasional Tour events, appeared in a few overseas tournaments, and later served as a ceremonial starter for many years

So Nelson retired in 1946 for practical purposes. He would still play the Masters though. Hogan won 51 and 53 masters with Nelson playing in those fields although already 5 and 7 years into his 'retirement'.

All the other majors Hogan won Nelson wasn't in those fields.

So I ask again...why couldn't Hogan beat Nelson earlier before Nelson left the game?
[/quote]

Nelson retired two yrs before Hogan started to play his best in 1948. Hogan couldn't beat anyone before he found his secret.

guisician · February 7, 2013

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360276854' post='6383933']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1360087676' post='6367623']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360011231' post='6362343']
Why do you think hogan wasn't able to beat nelson?
[/quote]

I don't think that cause I'm pretty sure Nelson was playing in many of Hogan's majors.
[/quote]

Nelson won the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardon_Trophy"]Vardon Trophy[/url] in 1939.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Nelson#cite_note-About-14"][14][/url][/sup] He played on the U.S. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryder_Cup"]Ryder Cup[/url] teams in 1937 and 1947 and was non-playing captain of the team in 1965.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Nelson#cite_note-About-14"][14][/url][/sup] After 1946, Nelson curtailed his schedule, although he continued to make regular appearances at The Masters as a competitor, played occasional Tour events, appeared in a few overseas tournaments, and later served as a ceremonial starter for many years

So Nelson retired in 1946 for practical purposes. He would still play the Masters though. Hogan won 51 and 53 masters with Nelson playing in those fields although already 5 and 7 years into his 'retirement'.

All the other majors Hogan won Nelson wasn't in those fields.

So I ask again...why couldn't Hogan beat Nelson earlier before Nelson left the game?
[/quote]

Nik,

As I recall from the Hogan biographies by Thomas Nelson and James Dodson, he finally beat Nelson a few times in 1942. Quoting from an earlier golfwrx Hogan vs. Nelson post ( http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/222479-ben-hogan-and-byron-nelson/ ):

"in 1942 Ben Hogan beat Nelson at Califonia Country Club also at the North and South championship (Nelson was 3rd) and at Greensboro Hogan was second and Nelson third, Ben Hogan also won at Ashevilles open and Nelson was 3rd. Nelson won the masters that year with Ben Hogan second. In 1942 Ben Hogan won his 3rd Vardon Trophy in a row and was the seasons money title of $13,143 wining 6 tounament to Byron Nelsons 5."

tembolo1284 · February 8, 2013

[quote name='guisician' timestamp='1360296917' post='6385891']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360276854' post='6383933']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1360087676' post='6367623']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360011231' post='6362343']
Why do you think hogan wasn't able to beat nelson?
[/quote]

I don't think that cause I'm pretty sure Nelson was playing in many of Hogan's majors.
[/quote]

Nelson won the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardon_Trophy"]Vardon Trophy[/url] in 1939.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Nelson#cite_note-About-14"][14][/url][/sup] He played on the U.S. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryder_Cup"]Ryder Cup[/url] teams in 1937 and 1947 and was non-playing captain of the team in 1965.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Nelson#cite_note-About-14"][14][/url][/sup] After 1946, Nelson curtailed his schedule, although he continued to make regular appearances at The Masters as a competitor, played occasional Tour events, appeared in a few overseas tournaments, and later served as a ceremonial starter for many years

So Nelson retired in 1946 for practical purposes. He would still play the Masters though. Hogan won 51 and 53 masters with Nelson playing in those fields although already 5 and 7 years into his 'retirement'.

All the other majors Hogan won Nelson wasn't in those fields.

So I ask again...why couldn't Hogan beat Nelson earlier before Nelson left the game?
[/quote]

Nik,

As I recall from the Hogan biographies by Thomas Nelson and James Dodson, he finally beat Nelson a few times in 1942. Quoting from an earlier golfwrx Hogan vs. Nelson post ( [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/222479-ben-hogan-and-byron-nelson/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...d-byron-nelson/[/url] ):

"in 1942 Ben Hogan beat Nelson at Califonia Country Club also at the North and South championship (Nelson was 3rd) and at Greensboro Hogan was second and Nelson third, Ben Hogan also won at Ashevilles open and Nelson was 3rd. Nelson won the masters that year with Ben Hogan second. In 1942 Ben Hogan won his 3rd Vardon Trophy in a row and was the seasons money title of $13,143 winning 6 tounament to Byron Nelsons 5."
[/quote]

13,000 dollars! Haha my my how times have changed eh?