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Most overrated big name architect is ???


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Totally agree with everyone who said Rees Jones.

My buddy played a Rees course the other day and Tweeted how he's still 0-for-life on enjoying Rees courses.

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Dye. He's a closet sadist.

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[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1360211657' post='6378275']
Dye. He's a closet sadist.
[/quote]

+1 on Dye.

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[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1360211657' post='6378275']
Dye. He's a closet sadist.
[/quote]

I disagree that Dye's over-rated...but his design philosophy IS sadistic.

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Speaking of Nickalaus, anyone who has played Stonewolf is rolling their eyes. Located just outside St. Louis, this course is just not much fun to play. The greens are just overkill, with an endless array of levels, shelves, terraces, etc. Nothing about it seems, looks, or plays naturally. The first hole is a forced lay-up to stay short of a deep ravine. If you hit it to the very end, you still have 150 left all carry. A smart, conservative tee shot leaves probably 165 170 left, which is at least a 5 iron for average players. On a downslope. All carry to the green.

Number 2 is a medium-length par 3 with a 3 level green titled from left to right. Out of bounds left. Woods right. Bunkers everywhere. I'm a 1 handicap and have only parred the hole 3 times out probably 10.

Number 3 has a green that is not describable.

Etc, etc, etc.

Didn't mean to rant, but the other guys explanation of Nickalaus courses was dead-on.

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New to the forum. . .You guys are beating on Dye pretty good, but Pete Dye Golf Club in WV and the Dye Preserve Golf Club in south Florida are really special courses. He's a classic designer in the form of Seth Raynor that just modified the angles of the older architects. It's genius, I think.

Nicklaus is way overrated and Rees Jones is not my favorite.

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[quote name='adamjstl' timestamp='1360272521' post='6383407']
Speaking of Nickalaus, anyone who has played Stonewolf is rolling their eyes. Located just outside St. Louis, this course is just not much fun to play. The greens are just overkill, with an endless array of levels, shelves, terraces, etc. Nothing about it seems, looks, or plays naturally. The first hole is a forced lay-up to stay short of a deep ravine. If you hit it to the very end, you still have 150 left all carry. A smart, conservative tee shot leaves probably 165 170 left, which is at least a 5 iron for average players. On a downslope. All carry to the green.

Number 2 is a medium-length par 3 with a 3 level green titled from left to right. Out of bounds left. Woods right. Bunkers everywhere. I'm a 1 handicap and have only parred the hole 3 times out probably 10.

Number 3 has a green that is not describable.

Etc, etc, etc.

Didn't mean to rant, but the other guys explanation of Nickalaus courses was dead-on.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more on Stonewolf...it's a quirky course to say the least. 5,8,9,12 and 15 are good holes. There are a few decent holes, and a lot of trash. That being said, I've played some Jack courses that I thought were pretty damn good start to finish (like Great Waters in Reynolds Plantation).

I feel much the same way about Arthur Hills' Pevely Farms...some good holes, some absolute crap, but his Longaberger GC is outstanding.


I think I vote RTJ simply because I feel he had an overall negative impact on golf course design for the better part of 40 years. He was the original one who stretched courses out and started designing courses for golf carts only. If you want to know why we have 6 hour rounds during summer weekends, I think no one had a greater impact on that than RTJ.

I can see Dye simply because I think there's a fine line between a genius course architect and simply a creative guy with a bulldozer. Dye would unquestionably be the latter.

I won't call Fazio a great designer, but I tend to like his courses because they fit my game well. He tends to play longer par 3s so he can give you some good shots at reaching par 5s in two. He tends to make drives appear more daunting from the tee than they really are (which is the exact opposite of Dye). Courses like Missouri Bluffs, Branson Creek, Osprey Ridge, and The National (Reynolds Plantation) are pretty damn nice courses with good variety that play pretty fair for golfers of all levels. I just don't feel he's that overrated because I don't think he's rated that high. I certainly wouldn't put him in the Doak/C&C/Dye/Nicklaus/Hanse/any of the pre-RTJ guys category.

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[quote name='jptruck' timestamp='1360286585' post='6384811']
New to the forum. . .You guys are beating on Dye pretty good, but Pete Dye Golf Club in WV and the Dye Preserve Golf Club in south Florida are really special courses. He's a classic designer in the form of Seth Raynor that just modified the angles of the older architects. It's genius, I think.
[/quote]

[quote name='cbehan' timestamp='1360301441' post='6386277']
I think I vote RTJ simply because I feel he had an overall negative impact on golf course design for the better part of 40 years. He was the original one who stretched courses out and started designing courses for golf carts only. If you want to know why we have 6 hour rounds during summer weekends, I think no one had a greater impact on that than RTJ.

I can see Dye simply because I think there's a fine line between a genius course architect and simply a creative guy with a bulldozer. Dye would unquestionably be the latter.

[/quote]

I quoted the two posts because I believe that Pete Dye can be linked to Jones in the evolution of golf architecture because Dye was the guy who turned heads and shocked the golf world by introducing courses that were a tremendously huge shift away from the RTJ style.

An interesting comparison of Dye and Raynor but one that has merit. Raynor's stuff is highly regarded yet his style was very geometric and unnatural looking. But the designs are all about strategy and shotmaking. I agree that Dye reintroduced this concept with courses that were not about length and brute force but about positioning and finesse. Harbor Town would be the well known example.

I believe Sawgrass was a turning point for Pete, once he heard all the teeth gnashing and wailing from the pay-for-play guys, who were largely uncomfortable with having the element of thought reintroduced to the game, he sort of went off and started making crazier and crazier stuff to torture the better players. I think if you are not a scratch golfer, you can enjoy Pete's courses from about 6000 yards. I appreciate the Dye style, but as one who values the more natural-looking layouts, I do find his stuff to be jarring to the eye. I also think he uses water way too much. And while he island green par three is certainly an entertaining thing to watch on TV, it is an awful feature for the everyday golf course and the concept has spawned an unfortunate number of bad imitations.

Cbehan's mention of RTJ is on target. His concept of "heroic" style golf led to the embrace of more penal elements. He was one of the first to make green side water hazards a standard feature. His ascent to the top coincided with the growth and popularity of the PGA Tour and he happily took on the job of toughening course design to challenge the top golfers, achieving the title of the Open Doctor for his remodels of older classic courses for modern competition. This led to a generation of course designs that favored ever longer and more difficult style, much to the detriment of the game for the average player (IMO).

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I grew up playing an early Dye course (Amelia). Later in life, I've had the privilege playing Pete Dye Golf Club many, many times, and actually played with Dye, himself. He is a rascal, for sure, but no dummy. Some of his more criticized work were at the request of the owner/developer. Sawgrass, Kiawah, the Medalist are all impossible for a reason.

His later work (post Sawgrass) is very much in the Raynor school. Go play Yeamans Hall or Shoreacres and you'll see an architect that heavily altered the environment to create steep drop offs and hard edge greens. It's very similar to Dye except Dye changed the attack angles. That's why Pete is the master of illusion. He generally gives more room than what you can see

Dye is re-doing a heavily-altered Ross course in Florida that I play quite often. At first, I cringed at the thought of him messing with a perfectly respectable course, but the results (9 holes so far) are spectacular. He actually renovated to what Ross intended while adding some of his personal flair in spots. The old nine just seems tired compared to the renovated work.

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[quote name='cbehan' timestamp='1360301441' post='6386277']
[quote name='adamjstl' timestamp='1360272521' post='6383407']
Speaking of Nickalaus, anyone who has played Stonewolf is rolling their eyes. Located just outside St. Louis, this course is just not much fun to play. The greens are just overkill, with an endless array of levels, shelves, terraces, etc. Nothing about it seems, looks, or plays naturally. The first hole is a forced lay-up to stay short of a deep ravine. If you hit it to the very end, you still have 150 left all carry. A smart, conservative tee shot leaves probably 165 170 left, which is at least a 5 iron for average players. On a downslope. All carry to the green.

Number 2 is a medium-length par 3 with a 3 level green titled from left to right. Out of bounds left. Woods right. Bunkers everywhere. I'm a 1 handicap and have only parred the hole 3 times out probably 10.

Number 3 has a green that is not describable.

Etc, etc, etc.

Didn't mean to rant, but the other guys explanation of Nickalaus courses was dead-on.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more on Stonewolf...it's a quirky course to say the least. 5,8,9,12 and 15 are good holes. There are a few decent holes, and a lot of trash. That being said, I've played some Jack courses that I thought were pretty damn good start to finish (like Great Waters in Reynolds Plantation).

I feel much the same way about Arthur Hills' Pevely Farms...some good holes, some absolute crap, but his Longaberger GC is outstanding.


I think I vote RTJ simply because I feel he had an overall negative impact on golf course design for the better part of 40 years. He was the original one who stretched courses out and started designing courses for golf carts only. If you want to know why we have 6 hour rounds during summer weekends, I think no one had a greater impact on that than RTJ.

I can see Dye simply because I think there's a fine line between a genius course architect and simply a creative guy with a bulldozer. Dye would unquestionably be the latter.

I won't call Fazio a great designer, but I tend to like his courses because they fit my game well. He tends to play longer par 3s so he can give you some good shots at reaching par 5s in two. He tends to make drives appear more daunting from the tee than they really are (which is the exact opposite of Dye). Courses like Missouri Bluffs, Branson Creek, Osprey Ridge, and The National (Reynolds Plantation) are pretty damn nice courses with good variety that play pretty fair for golfers of all levels. I just don't feel he's that overrated because I don't think he's rated that high. I certainly wouldn't put him in the Doak/C&C/Dye/Nicklaus/Hanse/any of the pre-RTJ guys category.
[/quote]

I disagree with you both on Stonewolf. It's a tight, but fair course that makes you think and varies the challenge. In addition, the tee boxes are all flat (and so they are at every other Nicklaus course I have played) and the greens are big enough. I have played other tight courses that are just plain stupid due to giving absolutely zero room to miss or be creative. Clinton Hill, for example is one like this. Lots of OB right next to the fairway, some very "target" oriented holes, and small greens. It's funny that I actually played pretty well there in a USGA qualifier. Anyway, we all have different tastes I guess.

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[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1360124183' post='6371103']
Dye overrated? Come on!

16, 17 and 18 at Sawgrass are more fun than any three consecutive holes in the world -- and each a product of imagination rather than existing geography.

Harbour Town's 7th, 9th, 13th and 14th are some of the greatest short holes anywhere.

Teeth of the Dog and Dye Fore -- stunning.

He basically invented the stadium course, and gave old railroad ties a reason to live

I love him! What more do you want from the guy?
[/quote]


I live in the Dominican Republic where Pete Dye has done many courses and have played other Dye courses in the US and have to agree that his courses although usually very difficult are nice works. I would say that Norman is probably the worst of the big names.

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Anyone who uses an island green

and on a bit more serious note

Nicklaus prob number 1 in my book with Dye number 2

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[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1360717986' post='6416895']
[quote name='fore_life' timestamp='1360712166' post='6416357']
Seems that Normans work is hated, didn't he offer to redo medalist for free and they told him to kick rocks?
[/quote]

His one design in Arizona was completely plowed under and redone before the club ever opened!!
[/quote]


Hahah typical Norman finish

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Gonna have to bring up Rees Jones again. He had 1 job at Cog Hill....Make it US Open worthy. Not only will it never host a US Open, but it now has lost hosting any PGA tournament after having a tournament there every year except one from 1991-2011. Good Job Rees, you have lost all credibility for any future.

Also, for those that talk about RTJ ruining golf by stretching them out. Remember that Rees was VP of RTJ, Inc. from 1964-74 and basically designed all courses on the east coast under the RTJ name. Not to mention he is RTJ's son as well.

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[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1360717986' post='6416895']
[quote name='fore_life' timestamp='1360712166' post='6416357']
Seems that Normans work is hated, didn't he offer to redo medalist for free and they told him to kick rocks?
[/quote]

His one design in Arizona was completely plowed under and redone before the club ever opened!!
[/quote]

Which course was that? Mirabel?

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[quote name='fore_life' timestamp='1360725036' post='6417779']
Schmidt/Curley?
[/quote]

Definitely, played Southern Dunes and Terra Lago in Palm Springs all are fantastic tracks.

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[quote name='spro' timestamp='1360676236' post='6412327']
Gary Player
[/quote]

I've played a good Gary Player course in Rasberry Falls and thought it was challenging. As for Rees Jones. I will admit he did screw up some good US Open venues but in turn I have played numerous of his designs and was very pleased with them.

Putter? Whatever Works

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[quote name='asualum' timestamp='1360725035' post='6417781']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1360717986' post='6416895']
[quote name='fore_life' timestamp='1360712166' post='6416357']
Seems that Normans work is hated, didn't he offer to redo medalist for free and they told him to kick rocks?
[/quote]

His one design in Arizona was completely plowed under and redone before the club ever opened!!
[/quote]

Which course was that? Mirabel?
[/quote]

Mirabel, Yes. The project was originally called Stonehaven. The course was completed and fully turfed when the property changed ownership and the new owners brought in Fazio to start over.

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