Most overrated big name architect is ???

[adamjstl]

[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1360650315' post='6411741']
[quote name='cbehan' timestamp='1360301441' post='6386277']
[quote name='adamjstl' timestamp='1360272521' post='6383407']
Speaking of Nickalaus, anyone who has played Stonewolf is rolling their eyes. Located just outside St. Louis, this course is just not much fun to play. The greens are just overkill, with an endless array of levels, shelves, terraces, etc. Nothing about it seems, looks, or plays naturally. The first hole is a forced lay-up to stay short of a deep ravine. If you hit it to the very end, you still have 150 left all carry. A smart, conservative tee shot leaves probably 165 170 left, which is at least a 5 iron for average players. On a downslope. All carry to the green.

Number 2 is a medium-length par 3 with a 3 level green titled from left to right. Out of bounds left. Woods right. Bunkers everywhere. I'm a 1 handicap and have only parred the hole 3 times out probably 10.

Number 3 has a green that is not describable.

Etc, etc, etc.

Didn't mean to rant, but the other guys explanation of Nickalaus courses was dead-on.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more on Stonewolf...it's a quirky course to say the least. 5,8,9,12 and 15 are good holes. There are a few decent holes, and a lot of trash. That being said, I've played some Jack courses that I thought were pretty damn good start to finish (like Great Waters in Reynolds Plantation).

I feel much the same way about Arthur Hills' Pevely Farms...some good holes, some absolute crap, but his Longaberger GC is outstanding.


I think I vote RTJ simply because I feel he had an overall negative impact on golf course design for the better part of 40 years. He was the original one who stretched courses out and started designing courses for golf carts only. If you want to know why we have 6 hour rounds during summer weekends, I think no one had a greater impact on that than RTJ.

I can see Dye simply because I think there's a fine line between a genius course architect and simply a creative guy with a bulldozer. Dye would unquestionably be the latter.

I won't call Fazio a great designer, but I tend to like his courses because they fit my game well. He tends to play longer par 3s so he can give you some good shots at reaching par 5s in two. He tends to make drives appear more daunting from the tee than they really are (which is the exact opposite of Dye). Courses like Missouri Bluffs, Branson Creek, Osprey Ridge, and The National (Reynolds Plantation) are pretty damn nice courses with good variety that play pretty fair for golfers of all levels. I just don't feel he's that overrated because I don't think he's rated that high. I certainly wouldn't put him in the Doak/C&C/Dye/Nicklaus/Hanse/any of the pre-RTJ guys category.
[/quote]

I disagree with you both on Stonewolf. It's a tight, but fair course that makes you think and varies the challenge. In addition, the tee boxes are all flat (and so they are at every other Nicklaus course I have played) and the greens are big enough. I have played other tight courses that are just plain stupid due to giving absolutely zero room to miss or be creative. Clinton Hill, for example is one like this. Lots of OB right next to the fairway, some very "target" oriented holes, and small greens. It's funny that I actually played pretty well there in a USGA qualifier. Anyway, we all have different tastes I guess.
[/quote]

At least at Clinton Hill you have SOMEWHERE to miss. Stonewolf you can easily lose a ball and/or OB on both sides of the hole on the opening 4 holes!!

[HoffTTM]

Arthur Hills by a mile

after that Player/Norman

edit: Forgot about Rees Jones, "The Open Doctor" what a joke

[Sawgrass]

Funny, I like Arthur Hills. At least his course on Hilton Head at Palmetto Dunes.

But now that I think of it, I kind of like it because it's kind of "Pete Dye-ey" in my mind. Short, lots of trouble, lots of strategy.

(I bet if this thread was changed to the best archetects, the exact same crew would end up being discussed! Kind of nice that we play a game that has such dramatic diversity in design!)

[Pure745]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1360883491' post='6430459']
Funny, I like Arthur Hills. At least his course on Hilton Head at Palmetto Dunes.

But now that I think of it, I kind of like it because it's kind of "Pete Dye-ey" in my mind. Short, lots of trouble, lots of strategy.

([b]I bet if this thread was changed to the best archetects, the exact same crew would end up being discussed![/b] Kind of nice that we play a game that has such dramatic diversity in design!)
[/quote]

That is a good point, and true!

[CHARGERS]

ARTHUR HILLS, he has done some crazy holes here in md, not sure what happpened but unfair.
I think he works best in one dimesion flat course because when the topgraphy starts rolling he gets a little nuts
And the cart path deal were thet try and hide them, it makes you carsick when you ride the course, zig zag everywhere

[dave willie]

[quote name='bp29' timestamp='1360175142' post='6373979']
[quote name='cbehan' timestamp='1360166972' post='6373007']
I'm shocked RTJ isn't mentioned. He'd get my vote.

Not a Dye fan either...he relies too much on tricking golfers, or using gimmicks.
[/quote]

I forgot about him. Played a couple of tracks of his. One definitely comes to mind. Island of Kaui, The Price Course. How that is rated number one (last time I checked) i have no clue. I have played quite a few there and that was not one of them.
[/quote]

Some people commenting appear to be confusing RTJ, Jr. with RTJ, Sr. Senior designed some gems like Valderrama, Mauna Kea, Spyglass, Hazeltine and Capilano (to name a few). Junior has done The Prince Course and Chambers Bay, and many others, but not as many renowned courses as his dad.

I disagree about the Prince Course. I've played many courses in Hawaii and it's in the conversation as one of the best in the Islands. It certainly is tough enough and I thought it was great fun -- I played it three times in a week spent there several years ago, and will play it gladly when I make it there again.

Senior probably did give birth to the 5-hour+ round, but the courses are fun if you like a stern test.

[Hstead]

If I had to play the course everyday, I would either want a Fazio or Ross course to play, as the courses I have played designed by those two are always similar, which to me is fair and tough. You see the trouble in front of you, and you play accordingly, and if you miss in the wrong place, you are penalized.

As for over rated, I going Pete Dye. I have played several Dye courses, and although they are sometimes fun to play once, I would not want to play them daily. I do not like trickery etc. I will never forget striping a drive down the middle of a Dye fairway only to find out that my ball was in a bunker that was invisible from the tee, dead center of the freaking fairway. Dye courses are WAY TOO PENAL in my experience. Some of the holes are great, and some are Mickey Mouse, Cracker Jack jokes that are only missing a windmill and clowns mouth.

[act0fgod]

Tiger Woods has to be the most over rated architect. He's made millions as an architect and built a practice area in his backyard.

[mosesgolf]

Pete Dye likes to punish good golf shots and for that reason I really dislike his courses. Punish bad shots but punishing good shoots is stupid. For example having greens that slope from front to back on a long par 4 is idiotic.

[TravisLG]

Nicklaus.....Maybe Greg Norman...maybe just any pro golfer.

[eyewipe]

I have only played one Nicklaus layout but, for me, it's massively disappointing and will soon be very high profile - the PGA at Gleneagles. It feels very man made and forced somewhat at odds with it's surroundings with huge distances between many holes breaking up any momentum.

It's older neighbour the Kings knocks it into a cocked hat on all levels other than lacking the flexibility to make a testing tournament par 72 due to short par 5s and poor spectator space.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1361169884' post='6450203']
Pete Dye likes to punish good golf shots and for that reason I really dislike his courses. Punish bad shots but punishing good shoots is stupid. For example having greens that slope from front to back on a long par 4 is idiotic.
[/quote]

It seems that people who prefer penal golf tend to hate his courses. People who prefer strategic golf tend to like them, but recognize that he tends to go overboard at time.

[act0fgod]

[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1361169884' post='6450203']
Pete Dye likes to punish good golf shots and for that reason I really dislike his courses. Punish bad shots but punishing good shoots is stupid. For example having greens that slope from front to back on a long par 4 is idiotic.
[/quote]

Does a long high shot that lands at the pin always have to be a good shot? I would say with a front to back sloped green a runner that lands short of the green is the good shot.

If you always want the same shot high, straight and at the pin, Dye and many others probably aren't your guys.

[Troyefl]

[quote name='Pure745' timestamp='1360895564' post='6431631']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1360883491' post='6430459']
Funny, I like Arthur Hills. At least his course on Hilton Head at Palmetto Dunes.

But now that I think of it, I kind of like it because it's kind of "Pete Dye-ey" in my mind. Short, lots of trouble, lots of strategy.

([b]I bet if this thread was changed to the best archetects, the exact same crew would end up being discussed![/b] Kind of nice that we play a game that has such dramatic diversity in design!)
[/quote]

That is a good point, and true!
[/quote]

I was thinking this all the way through the replies. The same names that are overrated would fall under best designer too.

[jnradioactive]

Donald Ross... pure hack

[TheCityGame]

Some of the things that people criticized in this thread . . .invisible bunkers in the middle of the fairway, greens that run front to back. . .

These are not "Pete Dye" features.

They're features of 500 year old golf courses. They're feature of St. Andrews, and Lahinch and Mcrihanish They're features that CB MacDonald and Mackenzie used to build some of the best courses in America.

I bet these are the same people who would complain about the 10th at Riviera which gave us the most fascinating golf this weekend.

They're features that are not created so that you can shoot your handicap on your one trip to Myrtle. They add strategic interest to the game, especially for people who play courses again and again. It's a shame to see someone criticize a designer from a point of view where they don't understand the reason for an invisible bunker in the middle of the fairway.

These courses don't penalize good shots. They force you to rethink what a good shot is.

[JTS52]

+1 Rees Jones

[gatewaygolfer]

Jack...

His green designs at times deserve a clowns mouth somewhere out there to go through.

[Sixcat]

I know I am probably in the minority but basically any big name former player today. Nicklaus, Player, Palmer, Norman, etc.

I am a big fan of the classic old courses and play them as often as I can. I began playing the game on an old William S. Flynn course and A.W. Tillinghast course that are both largely unchanged and still very relevant.

[ruascott]

Regarding Dye....his courses are all over the place. Some are tremendous, much more natural layouts, and they are a lot of fun to play. I'd play the Ocean Course every day of my life if I could. I'm in Indy, and we have a TON of Dye courses around here. Brickyard Crossing and The Fort are both enjoyable to play, IMO, and also very visually interesting...the Fort is a much more natural course, the Brickyard not so much.

However, some of his courses....seems those he built in the '80s...are really over the top and not enjoyable. I played Carlton Oaks outside of San Diego last year, and hated it. It wasn't in that good of shape, but that's not why I hated it...it was just too difficult and gimmicky to be enjoyable.

[Sir Larry Wildman]

Gil Hanse

[Dpavs]

[quote name='poizster' timestamp='1360121897' post='6370881']
Donald Ross. Granted his name is attached to a lot of courses that he didn't have much to do with. Although, in my opinion, that's what makes perhaps not him, but the courses overrated.
[/quote]

+1 The courses I have seen by Ross are ho hum.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='Sir Larry Wildman' timestamp='1361552246' post='6480157']
Gil Hanse
[/quote]

Interesting choice. Why do you think he is over rated.?

[tbowles411]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1360211657' post='6378275']
Dye. He's a closet sadist.
[/quote]
+1 Sadistic basterd

You should never lose a ball in the fairway just because you put it on the "wrong side." Don't get me started.

Norman is close,

[CurtM85]

[quote name='XJared' timestamp='1360156669' post='6372111']
Fazio has some great tracks, recently played Camp Creek in PC, FL, fantastic.

Most overrated is Dye if you leave out Sawgrass.
[/quote]

Camp Creek is my favorite course. Love Tom Fazio designs.

[BuckeyeGolfer]

Here is one many people have never heard of. Mike Stranz.

Designed a few courses called Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm in the Pinehurst area. BOTH are on the Golf Digest Top Ten list of hardest courses. Also designed Caledonia and True Blue in Myrtle.

[color=#000000][size=3]"Top 10 Greatest Golf Architects of All Time" by [/size][/color][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golfweek"]Golfweek[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] in 200)[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Died at age 50 of Cancer. [/size][/color]

[Sixcat]

[quote name='BuckeyeGolfer ' timestamp='1361650261' post='6487511']
Here is one many people have never heard of. Mike Stranz.

Designed a few courses called Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm in the Pinehurst area. BOTH are on the Golf Digest Top Ten list of hardest courses. Also designed Caledonia and True Blue in Myrtle.

[color=#000000][size=3]"Top 10 Greatest Golf Architects of All Time" by [/size][/color][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golfweek"]Golfweek[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] in 200)[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Died at age 50 of Cancer. [/size][/color]
[/quote]

I have played Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm and don't get the fascination with them. Several courses in that part of the country that are much better.

[Kenny Lee]

[quote name='archer32' timestamp='1361658965' post='6488173']
[quote name='BuckeyeGolfer ' timestamp='1361650261' post='6487511']
Here is one many people have never heard of. Mike Stranz.

Designed a few courses called Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm in the Pinehurst area. BOTH are on the Golf Digest Top Ten list of hardest courses. Also designed Caledonia and True Blue in Myrtle.

[color=#000000][size=3]"Top 10 Greatest Golf Architects of All Time" by [/size][/color][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golfweek"]Golfweek[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] in 200)[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Died at age 50 of Cancer. [/size][/color]
[/quote]

I have played Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm and don't get the fascination with them. Several courses in that part of the country that are much better.
[/quote]

He was the king of quirkiness and never boring, but MPCC Shore is nothing short of sensational and certainly his best work!

[lordbyron]

[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1361290826' post='6458283']
Some of the things that people criticized in this thread . . .invisible bunkers in the middle of the fairway, greens that run front to back. . .

These are not "Pete Dye" features.

They're features of 500 year old golf courses. They're feature of St. Andrews, and Lahinch and Mcrihanish They're features that CB MacDonald and Mackenzie used to build some of the best courses in America.

I bet these are the same people who would complain about the 10th at Riviera which gave us the most fascinating golf this weekend.

They're features that are not created so that you can shoot your handicap on your one trip to Myrtle. They add strategic interest to the game, especially for people who play courses again and again. It's a shame to see someone criticize a designer from a point of view where they don't understand the reason for an invisible bunker in the middle of the fairway.

These courses don't penalize good shots. They force you to rethink what a good shot is.
[/quote]
This...
And take a yardage book and use it.....you have to think the whole way threw a Dye course for sure. I can't recall ever meeting anyone who played Blackwolf Run and didn't like it. He is certianly polarizing.

[CowtownTexas]

First, let me say I enjoy playing Tom Fazio courses. The suit my eye and I typically score very well on them. However, being that I like his courses I've ended up playing maybe 20-25 of them in different parts of the country. The more I've played, the least I've liked them. The reason being is that there doesn't seem much difference between each course. I see the same hole in Florida that I see in Texas and in Kansas. The only differences between his courses seem to be the amount of money the developer had to spend. I think his courses are fun, but in no way do I believe so many of them belong in the Top 100.

One person that hasn't been mentioned is Perry Maxwell, which makes me believe he's under rated. Two of the best courses I've ever played were Prairie Dunes and Southern Hills (I have an obvious bias towards Colonial, though Maxwell wasn't the only designer). If Prairie Dunes was near a major metropoliton area, it would be in the top 5-10. It's that good.

I tend to prefer the traditional courses that really used the lay of the land versus modern courses that seem to be at the will of the checkbook and the bull dozer, but that's just me.

Also, I admittedly haven't played many, but I haven't found a Nicklaus course I've liked yet.