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Curious - what is zero tolerance for ALL specs in a set worth?


TomWishon

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Color me always curious to know what a large segment of golfers think about topics related to equipment.

 

There have been a few threads over the past days/weeks in which posters debate/argue/defend/criticize the accuracy of the specs of the clubs they plan to order from a company. Many have "proof" that an OEM custom department can't hit specs with reliable accuracy. Others swear they can be dead on. Some feel a top 100 or top certified custom clubmaker is the only place to get zero tolerance specs on their clubs, others doubt that.

 

As a 27 yr clubhead and shaft designer and 40 yr veteran of the golf equipment industry, I can testify that the chances of getting a set of 14 clubs with the around 200 total specifications in total all at zero tolerance is close to the odds required to win the Power Ball lottery. It doesn't happen because there are nearly 200 separate specs on all the 14 clubs added together and every single company has to live with +/- tolerances on every head, shaft, grip. Then you have the element of possible mistakes made by the worker who is building the clubs as an 8-5, 250 day/yr job not making stellar wages or mistakes made by a clubmaker who either may not be fully proficient in his measurement skills or his equipment is not in perfect spec for making the measurements.

 

So all these threads and posts about spec accuracy in clubs versus what I know from experience about tolerances and mistakes makes me wonder. . . . . . .

 

What would it be worth to each of you who are interested in accurate club specs if you really and truly could get all 14 clubs in your set made to a zero tolerance with NO mistakes?

 

Now we need to put a number on that so here is the frame of reference for you to think about this and come up with your own number. A basic high end set of 14 clubs including high COR woods, high COR hybrids, forged carbon steel irons bought from any major golf retailer will cost around $2150, give or take a hundred. That's driver, two fwys, two hybrids, 7 forged irons, 2 wedges and a putter - all high end in their categories.

 

OK, let's quantify zero tolerance. . . . .

 

Lengths - +/-1/32"

Lofts, Lies, Face Angles - +/- 1/8*

Shaft flex/bend profile - 7 different positions of stiffness measurement with +/-1cpm for the butt to center and +/-2cpm for the tip section (zero tolerance on tip sections is IMPOSSIBLE)

Shaft Weight - +/- 1/4 gram

Total Weight - +/-1 gram

Swingweight - +/- 1/8 swingweight

Grip weight - +/- 1/4 gram

Grip Size - +/-0.002" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip

 

What is it worth to you to get zero tolerance for every spec for every one of those clubs?

 

Just curious,

TOM

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Wow. That's some list. I can tell you what I do in building an iron set, and how long it takes, and how much I'd like to get paid. I can't touch shaft flex/bend profile really, just butt CPM, without a truly ridiculous amount of testing. I can pick a proper shaft design for each club but after that I'm stuck with that design. I can't touch total weight to closer than about 2gm without spending a FORTUNE on overstock so I can pick and choose (TWGT has the stock on hand of course, and so do the major OEMs, but they'd still have to hand-pick).

Lengths +- 1/64"
Loft/Lie +- 1/8°
Shaft flex +- 1cpm of slope on a 5" or Rifle clamp
Shaft weight +- 2gm
Total weight +- 2 gm
Swingweight +-1/8 point ungripped
Grip weight +- 1gm (sorry - not interested in tighter than that)
Grip size +- 0.002 seems about right - I'd certainly notice anything looser.

That's my standard build for irons because I'mnot interested in building any looser to save a couple of hours, and 8 clubs takes me a good 8 hours total - the bulk of it going back and forth from the freq meter to the chopsaw. Can I ask for $40 an hour (apart from the time it takes to order, manage stock, achieve proper fitting specs for the player in the first place, tweak afterwards)? I hope so. So rebuilding an iron set at those tolerances should cost no less than $320 over standard retail, or over cost+markup in the case of components.

But you're talking a full set! Getting the face angles right on woods adds another layer of complexity and a lot more time on the bending machine, to say nothing of what it takes to fit bounce, flange width, relief and other custom grind options on wedges, much less what it takes to fit a putter, so all in all it's hard to see how it could be done anywhere less than $1,500. Can you get it? Sure, if you live in Japan, or in a US city near a major league team's stadium or practice facility. If you live in the Berkshires? Not a chance.

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from my perspective, which needs qualification, could rationalize 5700 give or take...
800 driver
800 putter
1000 fw+ute
2500 3-w
600 gw+lw

but this is from a perspective of...
tech is near its apex & this is a long term investment (10+ yrs, or until they wear out)
the set truly fits my eye & swing, i am satisfied, even proud of the fit
everything is spot on & of the very best in materials/craftsmanship, i can be confident in this
i dont need the cash for something of greater importance

heck, i might even go 6-7, but thats including gratuity... ;-)

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I think $6k would be a fair estimate based on the fact that $2k would be labour and $4k equipment cost with much of that coming down to the fact that there would have to be a large number of heads shafts and grips to be able to weight, CPM and size sort.

So I would allow a week of time for the build and the fitting.

Does that seem like a fair estimate to everyone else?

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It wouldn't be worth any more to me than being CLOSE to those tolerances. 1/16" in length, 1/2* in loft, a few CPM's, a gram or 2 in shaft, 1/2 point in SW, etc. Those would be close enough for me to where I wouldn't pay any more for closer tolerances because I wouldn't notice the variance, nor would I feel that they would make a difference. Maybe not the answer you're looking for, but my honest opinion. These guys saying $6,000 or whatever, does that mean that's what it'd be worth to them? And they would pay that? I can't honestly imagine anyone paying that much for ZT. Sure, it may cost that much to GET it, but something about diminishing returns makes me think "what difference does an eighth of an inch or a gram or a couple cycles really matter?"

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[quote name='deck' timestamp='1384304747' post='8140160']
To me it was worth a trip to Durango Colorado.
[/quote]


Hahahaha... Deck.... There's something on your nose buddy....

Kidding. :)

I think close enough is good enough for mere mortals so what would it be worth to me?

Nothing.

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The law of diminishing returns comes into play at some point, right? I could not justify spending $6-7K on a set with specs as tight as you listed. $500 premium to off the rack for me.

What's next? Weighing each sleeve of my long sleeve shirt to ensure that one doesn't weigh more than the other when playing in cold weather???

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I wouldn't pay extra for those tolerances.... as they seem ridiculously tight, to me.

Especially +\- 1/8 on something as arbitrary as a swingweight scale, which was only ever meant as a reasonable guess to get clubs to feel same-ish when swung, and only 'works' as designed if used with the same shafts and in 1/2" length increments as you go from club to club.

The 1/8 degree on loft seems a bit tight also...maybe around a 1/3 yard difference if the usual 4 degree club gaps give you 10 yard club gapping? Lie angle to 1/8 of a degree.....?

I'd say most complaints or annoyance would be the intentional loft deflation of driver heads, where they are knowingly labelled as eg a 10 1/2 degree head that is 12 deg even though +/- 1/2 a degree is a reasonable standard tolerance and the OEM intentionally biases the labelling to massage egos. ( ie a large random bunch of 9 degree heads should average out at or close to 9 not 10 or more).

"You must lash out with every limb, like the octopus who plays the drums." p. 134

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The thing is everyone has there own idea on what clubs should be worth I guess.

Some folks that walk into a golf shop don't want to pay $499 for a package set with 13 clubs a bag and trolley/buggy and ask if you have any trade ins or second hand equipment.

Others won't play anything unless it is Honma 5 star or Mauruman Majesty because it is "beneath them" and is seen as a blight on their social appearance.

Somewhere between is the reasonable person that wants the best PERFORMING set of clubs that they can get and somewhere between $2500 and $6000 will probably get them that.

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Between woods, hybrids and irons, I play my irons the longest (approx. 5 yrs for a set), so I might consider it for that. $500, spread out over 5 yrs with annual loft/lie checks seems about right to me, but probably wouldn't be worth it to the club builder.

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After all it's comeback to FEEL again, so for me it's just worth as much as good fitted with MOI matching fee. I don't think there is added value from golfer perspective, while it should be easier for club maker to get jobs done therefore I believe it should be include as standard procedure / tools for carrying their title as a real Professional Club Fitter.

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Fw -
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#5 Rbz stg1 tour TP std Rul.
#7 Cleaveland Launcher 1st gen std Fuji gold.
Irons -
#4-Hy JBeam - Attas.
#5-Pw Miura BB - MR MTI.
Wedges -
52 & 58 Fourteen Rm 12 std Dg.
Putter -
Lajosi dd copper.

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I wouldn't pay extra to get them that much tighter. If they are off more than 0.5* loft/lie that is noticeable to me and worth up to about $10 per club to make it right. (The guy I go to currently charges $5) The other stuff, club head weight in particular, I am not worried about unless it seems WAY off (which usually means too light for my taste).

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I'm sure someone would pay a lot for clubs built with tolerances like that, but then they would end up on their wall and never get played just so they could brag about having the best clubs ever made. And that precision would be wasted the moment any one of use used them as we are worse than any variable in the specs.

Reasonable and obtainable even if you don't have access to a warehouse of components:
[color=#282828]Lengths - +/-1/16"[/color]
[color=#282828]Lofts, Lies, - +/- 1/4*[/color]
[color="#282828"]Shaft flex/bend profile - couple of cpm's[/color]
[color=#282828]Shaft Weight - +/- 2 grams[/color]
[color=#282828]Total Weight - +/-2 grams[/color]
[color=#282828]Swingweight - +/- 1/8 swingweight[/color]
[color=#282828]Grip weight - +/- 2 grams[/color]
[color=#282828]Grip Size - +/-0.01" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip[/color]

Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Rogue 3iron Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4-AW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, SM4 56°, SM4 60°
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

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It would be worth nothing to me as I feel that the specs would not be the same after a few rounds. The numbers are bound to move a bit after a few hundred range balls hit off mats or hard turf.

PXG Gen6 0311 9.0 with Aldila Rogue MSI125 stiff

PXG 0211 3 and 5 woods

PXG 0317CB with Project X LZ 6.0

Bettinardi Queen Bee B11

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Interesting topic Tom, and I'll bet you'll get both extremes in response.

Me, I play vintage irons I buy for approx. $20-$50 set, and all are forged, which should make me sensitive to this.

However, I'm not good enough (even as a single digit) to need anything made to a level of precision that you detail. If my irons are still travelling expected yardages, then I see nothing wrong, and am unsure how much minute adjustments would make. To go through your list:

Lengths - +/-1/32" - [color=#A52A2A]I doubt my hands are placed within 1/32" of where they were the last time I held the club[/color]
Lofts, Lies, Face Angles - +/- 1/8* - [color=#A52A2A]Not sure this would make a difference. As long as the lofts are not way off, I can change lie and face angle by 1/8* just with my hands on purpose every swing. Assuming I have a completely flat perfect lie. Every time.[/color]
Shaft flex/bend profile - 7 different positions of stiffness measurement with +/-1cpm for the butt to center and +/-2cpm for the tip section (zero tolerance on tip sections is IMPOSSIBLE) [color=#B22222]I'm not good enough to notice this. Factory flex tolerances on Staff and Hogan irons seem to have been pretty good.[/color]
Shaft Weight - +/- 1/4 gram [color=#B22222]- 1/4g is immeasurable for the perceptive abilities of human hands[/color]
Total Weight - +/-1 gram - [color=#B22222]1 gram might be detectable, but I doubt it[/color]
[url="http://stat.dealtime.com/DealFrame/DealFrame.cmp?bm=519&BEFID=96424&acode=538&code=538&aon=&crawler_id=1911151&dealId=_tmqm6CRa9abnyHXUInfcQ%3D%3D&searchID=&url=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-57618-1854-0%2F2%3Fkwid%3D1%26mtid%3D570%26crlp%3D1_240251%26kw%3D%7Bquery%7D%26linkin_id%3D%7Blinkin_id%7D%26sortbid%3D%7Bbidamount%7D%26fitem%3D171112624971%26mt_id%3D570%26mpre%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fitm%252Flike%252F171112624971%26mid%3D446528%26sdc_id%3D%7Bsdc_id%7D&DealName=Golf%20Club%20Lead%20Tape%201%2F2%22%20X%20100%22%20Sticky%20Back-woods%20Irons%20Putters%20Swingweight&MerchantID=446528&HasLink=yes&category=0&AR=-1&NG=1&GR=1&ND=1&PN=1&RR=-1&ST=&MN=msnFeed&FPT=SDCF&NDS=1&NMS=1&NDP=1&MRS=&PD=0&brnId=2455&lnkId=8070676&Issdt=131113051908&IsFtr=0&IsSmart=0&dlprc=8.88&SKU=171112624971"][color=#353535]Swingweight[/color][/url] - +/- 1/8 swingweight [color=#B22222]- You can be off by 1/8th a swingweight just with crud on the face of the iron, couldn't you be? Or through more use and wear to an often used club like a PW?[/color]
Grip weight - +/- 1/4 gram [color=#B22222]- See comment above[/color]
Grip Size - +/-0.002" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip [color=#B22222]- My hands shrink and expand more than this, just based on how much fluid I've taken in that day and the day before[/color]

Not that I'm trying to dissuade you if you feel this is a premium service that some golfers might pay for. However, when something would be as expensive as this likely would be (just on labor alone), to me this speaks more about a "prestige" or "luxury" product.

In other words, there are likely guys willing to drop a few K just to say "These are fully customized by Tom Wishon to the following specs......." - although this adds prestige to the clubs, I am highly doubtful that it would greatly improve one's scoring.

Or it would be perfect for the 20 hdcp who is OCD, and is convinced the "poor tolerances" on their clubs are preventing them from getting to the PGA.

D -  TM Stealth+ Kuro Kage 5th Gen 60g S

4W - Ping Anser TFC S

3H - Ping Anser TFC S

4-PW W/S D7 Forged KBS $ Taper Lite S
48* W - Cleveland Zipcore RTX 6 DGS S

54* W - Cleveland Zipcore RTX 6 DGS S

60* W - Cleveland Zipcore RTX 6 DGS S

Putter - 22 TM Spider X Short Slant Hydroblast

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I work in the world of four decimal places. And have seen the world of 7 decimal places. (Millionths of an inch... there is a reason as to why some B1 bomber parts are so darn expensive.)
Basically there is no such thing as "zero" tolerance.

Grip weight within .25g. Surely such accuracy would require hand sorting. The manufacturer specs are greater than that. One batch of material to another can have differing specific gravities thus effecting part weights lot to lot. If a grip weighs 40g - 60g even at the low end .25g would be a 6% deviation.
+/-.002" on an installed grip. Please
.125g swing weight... breathing on it will change the weight by more than that.

Tom to answer your question... to get those kind to tolerances... first I feel the listed tolerances are unreasonable.
I would not waste your time even asking for such tolerances.
And would not pay for them.

PING G25 12 degree w/S+ @ 45"
Titleist 910F 17° / 910h 24° & 27°
Titleist 913Hd 20°
PING G25's 6-U KBS Tour - V
Cleveland RTX 53 / 588 56°
Callaway ProType ix 9ht

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Tom,

Even if I won the Powerball Lottery. I would still choose to build my own equipment to my owns specs because it's fun and makes my golf game more enjoyable.

Obviously, Jack Nicholson and I have differing opinions.

Jack Nicholson Buys $75,000 Set Of Golf Clubs

[url="http://www.golfchannel.com/news/grill-room/jack-nicholson-buys-75000-set-golf-clubs/"]http://www.golfchann...set-golf-clubs/[/url]

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[quote name='maslie' timestamp='1384322613' post='8141610']
After all it's comeback to FEEL again, so for me it's just worth as much as good fitted with MOI matching fee. I don't think there is added value from golfer perspective, while it should be easier for club maker to get jobs done therefore I believe it should be include as standard procedure / tools for carrying their title as a real Professional Club Fitter.
[/quote]

Not to split hairs, but a Club Fitter fits and a Clubmaker builds. The OP was asking about tight specs which is a Clubmaker issue.

The tightest specs in the world are useless if the clubs do not properly fit. To me if the clubs fit properly, then the build specs can be a bit loose. Such as like plus or minus 1/2 a swingweight or plus or minus 1-2 CPM's would be close enough.

I have always said a well trained monkey can build one golf club. Now does it fit or can he build another to match it are much different issues.

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I have been vocal on a few occasions regarding the final quality of delivered clubs (mostly OEM's but I have had a few bad club builder jobs as well) so I have a different take on this, why can't I have this level of quality for the retail price? Even if I can't feel the difference (although I think I could) it would be reassuring to know the clubs have been built to an exacting standard and it would be nice to have some redress when what you get, is not what you expected. It would make the loop of custom fit / custom build much tighter, what you tested and ordered is actually what is delivered.

It appears to me that this is perhaps more achievable for the large volume producers, requiring tightening of component tolerances and the introduction of weight (and flex sorting for shafts) sorting for heads, shaft and grips.

If I had to pay a little extra for higher quality, I guess I would but it would have to come with some form of guarantee and protection, confirming the clubs were assembled to a higher standard. I am suspicious the big players would simply supply current quality while charging a higher price.

I know that as it stands we can't even agree how to measure the length of a club or accurately size a grip but perhaps this will change in time (agreed industry wide standards would be great).

I know its unrealistic..

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Seems some of the posters who may have talked about wanting accurate specs now don't think that much precision is either worth much more money, or they don't think that kind of precision is important.

Which makes me want to ask, how close does anyone think their specs need to be? +/-1/2 deg on loft, lie, face angle good enough? +/- 1/4" on length or less? +/- half a swingweight or less? I am interested to hear just how close is close enough to the golfers?

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[quote name='jaclubnut' timestamp='1384470213' post='8149962']
Seems some of the posters who may have talked about wanting accurate specs now don't think that much precision is either worth much more money, or they don't think that kind of precision is important.

Which makes me want to ask, how close does anyone think their specs need to be? +/-1/2 deg on loft, lie, face angle good enough? +/- 1/4" on length or less? +/- half a swingweight or less? I am interested to hear just how close is close enough to the golfers?
[/quote]
For me, personally, unless I invest in a bunch of digital equipment (lie, loft, sw scale) practical has to win out. +/- 1/4º lie/loft, +/- 1/16" on length and +/- 1/4 swing weight. I can say I get closer than that, but there will be enough margin of error in measurement from one time to the next. Golf isn't a game of perfect anyway and my own day to day variations in body, stance, plane, grip, back condition means that I'm more of a variable than my clubs.

Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Rogue 3iron Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4-AW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, SM4 56°, SM4 60°
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

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[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1384297710' post='8139568']
Color me always curious to know what a large segment of golfers think about topics related to equipment.

There have been a few threads over the past days/weeks in which posters debate/argue/defend/criticize the accuracy of the specs of the clubs they plan to order from a company. Many have "proof" that an OEM custom department can't hit specs with reliable accuracy. Others swear they can be dead on. Some feel a top 100 or top certified custom clubmaker is the only place to get zero tolerance specs on their clubs, others doubt that.

As a 27 yr clubhead and shaft designer and 40 yr veteran of the golf equipment industry, I can testify that the chances of getting a set of 14 clubs with the around 200 total specifications in total all at zero tolerance is close to the odds required to win the Power Ball lottery. It doesn't happen because there are nearly 200 separate specs on all the 14 clubs added together and every single company has to live with +/- tolerances on every head, shaft, grip. Then you have the element of possible mistakes made by the worker who is building the clubs as an 8-5, 250 day/yr job not making stellar wages or mistakes made by a clubmaker who either may not be fully proficient in his measurement skills or his equipment is not in perfect spec for making the measurements.

So all these threads and posts about spec accuracy in clubs versus what I know from experience about tolerances and mistakes makes me wonder. . . . . . .

What would it be worth to each of you who are interested in accurate club specs if you really and truly could get all 14 clubs in your set made to a zero tolerance with NO mistakes?

Now we need to put a number on that so here is the frame of reference for you to think about this and come up with your own number. A basic high end set of 14 clubs including high COR woods, high COR hybrids, forged carbon steel irons bought from any major golf retailer will cost around $2150, give or take a hundred. That's driver, two fwys, two hybrids, 7 forged irons, 2 wedges and a putter - all high end in their categories.

OK, let's quantify zero tolerance. . . . .

Lengths - +/-1/32"
Lofts, Lies, Face Angles - +/- 1/8*
Shaft flex/bend profile - 7 different positions of stiffness measurement with +/-1cpm for the butt to center and +/-2cpm for the tip section (zero tolerance on tip sections is IMPOSSIBLE)
Shaft Weight - +/- 1/4 gram
Total Weight - +/-1 gram
Swingweight - +/- 1/8 swingweight
Grip weight - +/- 1/4 gram
Grip Size - +/-0.002" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip

What is it worth to you to get zero tolerance for every spec for every one of those clubs?

Just curious,
TOM
[/quote]

I really dont think there is a place where ALL this can be done, and the reason is shafts.
You would need more than one box of tapers, all Tour Issue to start with, and then sort them another "10 times" to get a tolerance on weight down below +/- 0.5, and even more challenging, find "a set of shaft", where all 7 flex zones follow the same slope within 1 CPM. I dont think that can be done, without a job that cant justify the time and cost needed.

The other specs is more/less the way i build all irons or other clubs for that matter, but i only measure shaft butt on 1 shaft, and control only 1 club in a set of irons for 1 grip size, i dont bother to measure all grips when done, but thats the only thing i drop.

Loft and lie, is checked and adjusted 3 times before done
- #1 Before assemble to make sure a later adjustment dont mess up SW value
- #2 After dry time, before testing in Trackman
- #3 in the players hand, assisted by Trackman for tweak of loft and lie to optimum dispersion

Since loft and lie adjustment after dry fit, WILL move SW value, its very hard to make a set where all irons is within 1/4 of a SW point and 1 gram on total weight when all is said and done, but thats how it should be.

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1384488466' post='8151576']
I dont think that can be done, without a job that cant justify the time and cost needed.

[/quote]

Of course you are right about the hassle of shaft sorting to get to such specs. I tossed those extreme specs out there in this thread because I was curious to hear what golfers would say about the concept of getting clubs as close to perfect as possible. I was curious to know if some put a value on it, or if some would take the direction to say "it wouldn't make a difference for my game."

Since many have indicated the latter, that makes me curious to know JUST HOW CLOSE do you think the specs on a set should be to what they are stated to be by whoever makes them? Lofts, lies face angles +/-1/2*, more or less? Lengths +/-1/4", more or less? Swingweights +/-1/2 point, more or less?

Howard, you know that there hasn't been a set of golf clubs ever made that is within these +/-1/2*, +/-1/4". +/-1/2 point tolerances I just listed, [b]for each club in the set/bag[/b]. So the additional question becomes, how close do you feel the specs should be when you plunk down some serious cash for golf clubs?

Knowing what I know about production tolerances from the very best factories and golf companies on the planet, I simply am very curious to know how accurate golfers think their clubs should be for the money they spend on the clubs.

TOM

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[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1384531680' post='8153344']
[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1384488466' post='8151576']
I dont think that can be done, without a job that cant justify the time and cost needed.

[/quote]

Of course you are right about the hassle of shaft sorting to get to such specs. I tossed those extreme specs out there in this thread because I was curious to hear what golfers would say about the concept of getting clubs as close to perfect as possible. I was curious to know if some put a value on it, or if some would take the direction to say "it wouldn't make a difference for my game."

Since many have indicated the latter, that makes me curious to know JUST HOW CLOSE do you think the specs on a set should be to what they are stated to be by whoever makes them? Lofts, lies face angles +/-1/2*, more or less? Lengths +/-1/4", more or less? Swingweights +/-1/2 point, more or less?

Howard, you know that there hasn't been a set of golf clubs ever made that is within these +/-1/2*, +/-1/4". +/-1/2 point tolerances I just listed, [b]for each club in the set/bag[/b]. So the additional question becomes, how close do you feel the specs should be when you plunk down some serious cash for golf clubs?

Knowing what I know about production tolerances from the very best factories and golf companies on the planet, I simply am very curious to know how accurate golfers think their clubs should be for the money they spend on the clubs.

TOM
[/quote]


For me plus minus 1/4 inch in length is huge?

I made a mistake of cutting one shaft dead on 37.5 instead of allowing 1/8 for the grip and it looked and measure huge!

when they were lined up ungripped you could clearly see the difference

1/16 or even 1/32 [size=4]maximum there I reckon.[/size]

One thing is some guys measure all irons at 60 degrees and some move the measuring devise to accommodate each head s lie angle.That alone could cause some measuring errors?

One answer would be what is acceptable in the Class 1 Clubmaking Schools or highest standards on the tour van or custom dept for top pros?


ps I would also include things like shaft logo alignment,grip alignment, ferrule turning and even label attachment as indicators of quality?

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[quote name='neilc' timestamp='1384533170' post='8153482']

One answer would be what is acceptable in the Class 1 Clubmaking Schools or highest standards on the tour van or custom dept for top pros?

ps I would also include things like shaft logo alignment,grip alignment, ferrule turning and even label attachment as indicators of quality?
[/quote]

Years ago, the OEMs used to list their tolerances in their catalogs. These days, I don't think any of the OEM companies actually list what their tolerances are. But what they have always been for the assembled club companies during my career is +/-1* for loft, lie, face angle; +/-1 swingweight point; +/-1/8" on lengths, and there were never any types of tolerances stated for shaft weight, flex or for grip size either.

For most serious players, I think most of them cringe when they think of +/-1* for loft, lie, face angle or +/-1 swingweight point because the thought comes to mind that in a set intended to have 4* loft increments between most irons, you could have two adjacent irons which are 6* apart and two that are 2* apart. Among the sets where there is a designed 3* loft increment between two clubs, then you could be looking at 1* difference between two of the clubs. For sure it is rare to have two adjacent lofts where one is +1, the other -1. So the norm says that when this tolerance kicks in, a 4* increment becomes 3* or 5*. Which for any solidly hit shot does show up as a difference in distance gaps.

And definitely, when you say +/-1, from the companies that use the best clubhead factories, there will be several of the heads in any set that will be dead on spec or within 1/2*, so not that many are a full degree off. But they are there. And no set made is 0 to +/-1/2 for all lofts, lies, face angles.

So getting anything better overall than +/-1* for lofts, lies and face angles doesn't happen. Some of the dedicated clubmakers will watch this and deliver more tightness to specs, but not that many. Those who do I hope are marketing this to their prospective golfers because it is a worthwhile add on service. And as to the OEMs custom departments, the stories are out there from many golfers who complain that when they had their clubs checked, several were off.

Actually it was from this knowledge that there are no sets out there within really close tolerances for everything that I simply was curious to start this thread. Serious players want their clubs to be as accurate as possible, but they don't know if they are. And in the end, I simply am interested to know how close is close enough to most golfers? And thus, what is this worth to get it?

TOM

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