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Curious - what is zero tolerance for ALL specs in a set worth?


TomWishon

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I would only consider paying extra to get tolerences that tight if I were a low single-digit/scratch amateur who plans on playing a lot of tournament golf OR a touring professional. At that level I believe you need any advantage you can get to increase your chances of making cuts and placing/winning tournaments. As a 20+ handicap weekend hack, the extra money I'd spend on something like that would be a waste. In fact at my skill level, paying for those tolerences would probably give me more of a placebo effect than anything else.

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As a club builder, I'm having a hard time figuring a value for all of this. We like to think that we are building to a closer spec than a OEM because we are actually doing the build, not a 9-5 worker. I think for this reason I would have to look at the things that are not adjustable, like the specs of the shafts for instance. Lengths, Lofts, Lies, Face Angles, total weight, swing weight, and grip size are fairly easily manipulated with the right equipment and knowledge. The items that are more "out of control", like shaft profile, would seem to hold a higher value in my book. I have built my business around manufacturers that seem to take more interest in the quality of their products, such as Wishon, Accra, and Pure and have stayed away from the companies that tend to go after "tonnage", which I won't name. I guess as far as a value, I would say that the hourly rate of the builder should be increased. Think of it like a mechanic. There are a lot out there, but most people, when they find that one mechanic that can make their car purr like no other, will spend the extra $$$ for their service. Just my $.02.

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I think there are 2 components to the cost. There is the "work" to get that tight of tolerances, this can be pretty well set or fixed, let's say $50-70 a club. But the variable is the materials in my mind. Unless you select a parallel tip iron shaft, it might take 14 shafts to make those tolerances in 10 irons. It might take a couple of heads: irons and driver/woods/hybrids to get the right desired specs.

So the reasonable approach as with most custom jobs the cost is labor and materials. The tighter the spec the more materials required. But then it begs the question if you want a driver that is exactly 9.7* who buys the all the heads? And if the shaft variability shows that 3 of the taper tip shafts can't be put in then should that cost be passed on. And if the builder had to make a club to find out it wasn't within spec, does that cost be passed on. I say it should.

So final answer for me is for a whole bag $1K labor... Materials should be actual cost including waste.

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For me, close enough is also a function of how easy/hard it is to adjust those specs after the set has been built - Loft/Lie on irons can be checked and modified for a minimal charge , so while I'd like those both to be within +/- 1*, that's not a deal breaker -

Length should be +/- 1/16
SW within 1/2 pt
Grip Weight - w/in 1 gr.
If you can get all of the other specs to allow you to build a club that specs out (whether it be MOI, CPM or whatever) within a specific spec tolerance, then I'm good to go


I guess part of it is that I've never compared the performance difference between an OEM spec set and a fully blueprinted set - Without knowing how a more "on spec" set would impact on course performance, I struggle to put a dollar figure on it...Unless I could see an increase in performance/consistency, I can't say I'd be willing to pay anything...

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I've been building clubs for myself for 25 years and for others (friends and family) almost that long. Shaft cpm is beyond me -- don't have the tools and truthfully don't worry about it. When making a set of irons, I do weigh all of the shafts and match them to the heads in ascending order. Length is +/- 0.125" -- I don't think with the tools I have that I could promise better than that, though it's likely most shafts I've cut over the years have been closer. Loft and lie I can get to about half a degree. I've added some weights to heads but haven't found many irons over the last 8-10 years that were 2g off of spec. Woods, on the other hand, I find they tend to be light, if anything. I'm pretty careful with my grip prep and keeping it within 1/64" hasn't been a problem -- every once in a while you get a rogue grip that just feels wrong. I don't carry inventory beyond things like ferrules and weights -- I'll usually order a couple of extra grips just in case there's an odd one in there. But as a hobbyist, I'm not going to order 5-6 sets of heads to pick through them -- it's just not practical. And while some of the component companies will hand pick heads for loft/lie/FA/weight -- others won't. If the face angle and the lie of woods I buy is pretty close, I can mostly live with loft issues at the top end of the bag.

I think the $40-$50 a club is a decent estimate, though I know the costs to do it at a high volume would be much higher than that -- but I don't know whether it would be cost effective for the buyer or the seller. Most players' swings aren't the same from shot to shot -- some are more sensitive to small changes, but 1/2 gram? 1/32"? As one poster said about hand size, water weight can make a difference in how the same grip feels day to day. A club builder with significant volume would be spending a lot of time measuring frequency on every shaft that comes in -- as well as factoring in the record keeping as well.

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That level of precision is of very little value to me. Give me reasonably accurate loft, lie, length and weight and I'm happy. I am a bit surprised that OEM's don't produce tighter spec clubs. That's where it could be done most effectively, but that doesn't seem to affect sales. I understand why a clubmaker would look at this from the perspective of how much work would be involved, to come up with a price but, without some basic changes in the specs of components, reducing the labor, the price would be prohibitive. Maybe in Japan you could get someone to pay for such a thing, but I don't think anywhere else.

Maybe if you could produce clubs with these specs at the same price you could promote them as such. I don't see too many people spending huge bucks on specs that exceed the precision of their golf swing.

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[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1384297710' post='8139568']
Color me always curious to know what a large segment of golfers think about topics related to equipment.

There have been a few threads over the past days/weeks in which posters debate/argue/defend/criticize the accuracy of the specs of the clubs they plan to order from a company. Many have "proof" that an OEM custom department can't hit specs with reliable accuracy. Others swear they can be dead on. Some feel a top 100 or top certified custom clubmaker is the only place to get zero tolerance specs on their clubs, others doubt that.

As a 27 yr clubhead and shaft designer and 40 yr veteran of the golf equipment industry, I can testify that the chances of getting a set of 14 clubs with the around 200 total specifications in total all at zero tolerance is close to the odds required to win the Power Ball lottery. It doesn't happen because there are nearly 200 separate specs on all the 14 clubs added together and every single company has to live with +/- tolerances on every head, shaft, grip. Then you have the element of possible mistakes made by the worker who is building the clubs as an 8-5, 250 day/yr job not making stellar wages or mistakes made by a clubmaker who either may not be fully proficient in his measurement skills or his equipment is not in perfect spec for making the measurements.

So all these threads and posts about spec accuracy in clubs versus what I know from experience about tolerances and mistakes makes me wonder. . . . . . .

What would it be worth to each of you who are interested in accurate club specs if you really and truly could get all 14 clubs in your set made to a zero tolerance with NO mistakes?

Now we need to put a number on that so here is the frame of reference for you to think about this and come up with your own number. A basic high end set of 14 clubs including high COR woods, high COR hybrids, forged carbon steel irons bought from any major golf retailer will cost around $2150, give or take a hundred. That's driver, two fwys, two hybrids, 7 forged irons, 2 wedges and a putter - all high end in their categories.

OK, let's quantify zero tolerance. . . . .

Lengths - +/-1/32"
Lofts, Lies, Face Angles - +/- 1/8*
Shaft flex/bend profile - 7 different positions of stiffness measurement with +/-1cpm for the butt to center and +/-2cpm for the tip section (zero tolerance on tip sections is IMPOSSIBLE)
Shaft Weight - +/- 1/4 gram
Total Weight - +/-1 gram
Swingweight - +/- 1/8 swingweight
Grip weight - +/- 1/4 gram
Grip Size - +/-0.002" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip

What is it worth to you to get zero tolerance for every spec for every one of those clubs?

Just curious,
TOM
[/quote]
I can only tell you what my customers think it is worth. I am busy, and continue to grow. I book appointment about 3 months In advance.
My motto. Convert one golfer at a time.
If they don't know what they are missing, then it means nothing.
Once a golfer learns, sees, and feels, the benefit of a near perfect set of clubs, their confidence grows and their game improves.

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To reach this tight of spec is in all honestly pointless. First of all, you would need the ability to measure to even smaller increments than your desired spec. I've never seen a golf club length measurement (either ruler or board) that had any smaller increments than 1/16". To get your +/- 1/32 you would need a ruler with 1/32" increments. And unless you're using a laser, the most accurate bending machines I've seen are the Mitchell digital ones with 1/4* increments, which means you can hit your spec to within +/- 1/4*.

So to really answer your question, what is it worth to a club builder/manufacturer to invest in equipment capable of measuring to such accurate specs?

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Per Club $30 to $40.

That's a budget of up to $560 to sort out a fabulous bag.
On second hand rebuilt gear this is realistic.
On Brand New and effectively to Tour Issue Spec............this price isn't realistic!

Thanks Tom.

posted at 9.49.....

2020 18 July mid winterNZ
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[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1384591173' post='8157266']
To reach this tight of spec is in all honestly pointless. First of all, you would need the ability to measure to even smaller increments than your desired spec. I've never seen a golf club length measurement (either ruler or board) that had any smaller increments than 1/16". To get your +/- 1/32 you would need a ruler with 1/32" increments. And unless you're using a laser, the most accurate bending machines I've seen are the Mitchell digital ones with 1/4* increments, which means you can hit your spec to within +/- 1/4*.

So to really answer your question, what is it worth to a club builder/manufacturer to invest in equipment capable of measuring to such accurate specs?
[/quote]

Actually you can get much closer than the smallest unit on your gauge or ruler. If you have 1/16" you can easily see increments in the 1/64" range - it's just halfway to halfway. And with a well-zeroed chopsaw these tolerances are really easy to hit. You can't be marking cuts with a Sharpie, though. The same applies to loft/lie, especially if you're using something precise like a Golf Instruments gauge to measure and just using your bending machine to bend. All this takes a TON of time, though, and few players will honestly save a single shot per month thereby. People do like first-rate work for its own sake though, and accurate assembly bespeaks care in the whole fitting process, so it's definitely worth something. As a separate issue, as a clubmaker it's worth something to ME to know that what goes out the door is the best I can do.

Certain custom features are more art than science, and THOSE are the ones which save strokes even though they're almost impossible to quantify. Really good relief/leading edge/camber work on a SW can be worth more than a shot per ROUND for a player who doesn't hit a lot of GiR. The same applies to FWs but to a lesser degree, because they're used less. Still, how many players have anything at all done to the leading edge of their 5w or 18° hybrid?..

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I know clubmakers/fitters have to differentiate their products from the major OEM clubs you can get from Dick's at a lower price. I even agree when they say that a well fit set of clubs will help golfers of all abilities. With that being said, I think they greatly overstate the importance of all of the minutiae. It's easy to buy into because we love having something to blame for a poor shot, but realistically we know better. The lazy argument is that a PGA tour pro could hit any set of clubs better than you, but let's take it a step farther.

I have a friend who usually beats me by 3 or 4 strokes. Let's say he shows up to the course with his lie angles 1.5 off of optimal and I have all of mine adjusted to within 0.01 degrees of optimal. Do any of us really think that difference is going to turn the tables? Would you put money on me just because his lie angles are a little off?

Even the best players wouldn't tell you, "I hit my 6 iron 184 yards, never more than 185.3 and never less than 182.3". That's the kind of precision we're talking about when we get down to 0.25 degrees of loft. If you want to get worked up over it because it is fun for you, you'll get no argument from me. But if you think your lie angles being slightly off matters to the score you card, you're fooling yourself.

- Jordan

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Driver- $800.00
3 to PW- $2000.00
Wedges- $900.00

I am frequently counseled that the the some of the specs and/or its accuracy are not needed. In my limited experience, I have only come across one clubfitter who had the equipment, passion and time to do close to what is requested. That was few years ago before we moved out of state.

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[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1384951456' post='8176916']
I'm a little curious about what you have in mind Tom. Are you planning different manufacturing techniques to provide the quality without the labor? Trading off component tolerances against cost?
[/quote]

No commercial interest in this since I know full well what it would cost to deliver nearly perfect specs. Just my curiosity based on numerous posts over the past many months from golfers who either complain that the specs of their clubs are not tight enough or posts from golfers who worry about whether the clubs they are going to buy will be accurate enough for their specs, coupled with me knowing full well what the usual tolerances are and the fact that companies make mistakes, I was just curious to know that since making much tighter specs would have to cost more, would golfers value this accuracy enough to pay more for it.

What was interesting to me from some of the posts was the fact that several golfers questioned if they really needed tighter specs. Either the golfers who complain about specs needing to be tighter are not offering their opinion here or they think the industry should just do better than +/-1 degree within the prices golfers pay for clubs these days. Or these "it wouldn't matter" opinions came from golfers who don't think they are good enough for anything better than the present range of spec accuracy matters for their game.

Fact is, the tolerances from the better companies are as good as they can be within the current price points of clubs along the chain of supply. On top of that most clubhead production factories will refuse to produce to +/-1/2* no matter if the golf companies paid them more to do it because it would disrupt their normal production volume too much. Tighter specs certainly can be delivered to golfers, but it would have to be done by whoever builds the clubs, and would require a fairly significant cost increase to do it. So I was just curious to hear if many golfers felt there was a value to that.

TOM

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The work I watched the guys at Cool Clubs do was impressive. I don't imagine that attention to detail and build quality gets much (if any) better than that.

This is the reason that I rib and install my own grips, weigh and bend my own irons, and keep lead tape handy. I don't have to pay for much anymore. If I did, they'd be coming from Mark Timms' and crew.

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