5 Things that make me go Hmmmm...

[Parker0065]

I guess I'm lucky in that at my home course the service all around is very good. As far as alcohol, I don't drink when I play but I do enjoy a nice draft on tap after my round for $3.50, which is cheaper than most bars in town, so no complaints there either!

The rangers aren't the Gestapo, but they will and do make on course corrections when players fall out of position. Last weekend we got stuck behind an extremely slow two some. The ranger came around on the 8th hole and I told him they were holding up the course and we were going to skip #9 to get around them. The ranger said no I'll tell them your going around them at the turn, and we did!


4) I will make a general comment for pretty much most golf course pro shops. When I started playing in the 1970's the course pro shop was where you bought everything from shoes, clubs, balls,,,,,ect. I started out on a little nine hole track but the pro shop there looked like the golf section of Dick's today. Rows and rows of clubs, balls, shoes. Over the years the Big Box stores and the internet have basically taken all that business away from the average golf course pro shop. They just don't do enough volume to justify carrying all that equipment so they stock the shelves with clothing and overpriced balls and other accessories. Today's pro shops have basically become a convenience store where a loaf of bread is double the price of what you would pay at a supermarket. Just substitute bread for golf balls, tees, gloves, and shirts!
There are exceptions to the rule mostly in high volume golf areas like Myrtle Beach. Most of those pro shops are still stocked like all pro shops use to be back in the day!

[thug the bunny]

Hmmmmmm, I gues I'm glad to be a member at my home course. I just check in, takes a minute. Beer is $4, at most I have two during a round. Members get 25% off clubhouse purchases so the final costs are reasonable, and our place has some really nice apparel. Even though it's a resort course, our rangers are both pleasant and efficient so pace is usually adequate. And I don't eat while I play.

[golfortennis]

[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1371562525' post='7271114']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1371560612' post='7270882']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371527492' post='7269410']
The last comment I don't understand.... you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls? I don't understand how charging two separate prices for golf and range is a big deal? Public golf courses that have a driving range cannot just set golf balls out for the public. Purchasing range balls are very expensive and to get that money back you have to actually charge to use the range and have some accountability to know who, when and what times range balls are being paid for with and without a round of golf. Either way I guess I don't have to "get" everything but that last plight seems pretty inconsequential to me.

[/quote]

He didn't say that. re-read his post. He's willing to pay $54 at once. There's nothing stopping them from charging for a bucket of balls if someone wants to just do that. But to charge only a greens fee, and then charge for range balls on top of it, particularly the further up you get in terms of quality of course, gives off the impression of nickel and diming. It's expensive to cut the grass on the course as well, but you don't see the course breaking down the green fee. They figure out the price they think will get them the traffic they want and bring in the revenue they want. Why is the range such a separate thing?

You want accountability, have the machine with the token. After all, your place isn't just setting out balls, so unless someone is there handing them out, there must be a machine. A person who paid for a round, gets a token. A person who paid for a bucket gets a token. A person who didn't pay for either of those, doesn't. How difficult is that?

Plus, don't forget, it's not about "well it costs me x to have this, so I need to charge x+y". It's about what gets people in the door. As a consumer I am asking, where is the value? Am I getting value for my money? And then there's the optics. Why not charge $55 and include the range balls, rather than $50, and then $5 separately. It gives the impression that I can expect a fee to everything. And the range isn't like food, where it is a completely different product. Warming up before round is frankly part of the round in my eyes, since I'd like to try and score on the first four holes rather than try and find my swing and get loose on them. The attitude in the past seems to have been, "I have a golf course here, and you will come here and do things the way I say." Which is fine, but people have options these days that weren't there before. The view needs to be "how do I get people to my facility, and keep them coming back."
[/quote]

I am happy that you will gladly pay $5 more if its included in the greens fee to play my course only if you get range balls, I wish I had 100 more of you sir. The thing is that everyone else and their brother want to play for $20 with range balls, lunch, a free yardage guide and a back massage included. Good try but you are the exception not the rule.
[/quote]

My first thought is that maybe a round of golf at your course is really only worth $20. Of course everyone wants a deal. People aren't going to say no. But who is to blame in the mentality you decry? I get the initial reaction when an owner sees another course on golfnow or whatever, but really, what is the long-term strategy behind it? Because really, all they are doing is saying "this is what our course is really worth" when there are a ton of Golfnow tee times. Or at least, that's what gets imprinted on the customer's brain. When there are so many *deals* out there, why pay full price? If you read the course reviews, you'll see there is a group of courses that people say "don't pay x, it's not worth it", but there are others where the green fee never gets mentioned. Why would you suppose that is?

As a course owner, I would say they have to make a decision as to what market they wish to cater to. As I said though, this becomes more of an issue the higher end the course. A course that markets itself as the top this or that in the area, they look really petty charging for range balls on top. A $25 muni? Not so much.

But again, like any other business, it's on the owner to provide a reason for people to spend their money there.

[CassinoNorth]

I'd much rather have the range balls built into my cost than have to fork up an extra $5 when I get to the course. Seems like penny pinching to me.


A small bucket to really get the muscles moving does wonders.

[Dizz]

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1371560612' post='7270882']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371527492' post='7269410']
The last comment I don't understand.... you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls? I don't understand how charging two separate prices for golf and range is a big deal? Public golf courses that have a driving range cannot just set golf balls out for the public. Purchasing range balls are very expensive and to get that money back you have to actually charge to use the range and have some accountability to know who, when and what times range balls are being paid for with and without a round of golf. Either way I guess I don't have to "get" everything but that last plight seems pretty inconsequential to me.

[/quote]

He didn't say that. re-read his post. He's willing to pay $54 at once. There's nothing stopping them from charging for a bucket of balls if someone wants to just do that. But to charge only a greens fee, and then charge for range balls on top of it, particularly the further up you get in terms of quality of course, gives off the impression of nickel and diming. It's expensive to cut the grass on the course as well, but you don't see the course breaking down the green fee. They figure out the price they think will get them the traffic they want and bring in the revenue they want. Why is the range such a separate thing?

You want accountability, have the machine with the token. After all, your place isn't just setting out balls, so unless someone is there handing them out, there must be a machine. A person who paid for a round, gets a token. A person who paid for a bucket gets a token. A person who didn't pay for either of those, doesn't. How difficult is that?

Plus, don't forget, it's not about "well it costs me x to have this, so I need to charge x+y". It's about what gets people in the door. As a consumer I am asking, where is the value? Am I getting value for my money? And then there's the optics. Why not charge $55 and include the range balls, rather than $50, and then $5 separately. It gives the impression that I can expect a fee to everything. And the range isn't like food, where it is a completely different product. Warming up before round is frankly part of the round in my eyes, since I'd like to try and score on the first four holes rather than try and find my swing and get loose on them. The attitude in the past seems to have been, "I have a golf course here, and you will come here and do things the way I say." Which is fine, but people have options these days that weren't there before. The view needs to be "how do I get people to my facility, and keep them coming back."
[/quote]

I don't need to re-read his post... I totally got it. I think you need to re-read mine. Nowhere did I say he didn't want to pay for range balls and its in my first sentence. I said "you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls" which implies he wants one fee for all of it. My opinion is- its totally inconsequential and I don't agree with it. I don't have a real direct opinion on it because it would not change my view of the course or enjoyment of the day. I understand that people are going to have differing opinions and that's OK but having been on the "wrong side" of the counter that's just how I think it should be done. I would rather know who sees value in the range to pay for it (and use it) because if you gave out a token to every golfer that paid for a round of golf you would a) have a lot of tokens out there b) have guys that used the token and then left tons of un-hit range balls at the range and c) lose the ability to actually charge for the range because most people would just go down to hit balls they didn't pay for. Last week I had a guy come on a busy Saturday morning (there was a traveling group that morning that got a free token with paid greens fee) come just to practice, he paid $6 for 2 tokens and went to the range. He came back an hour later with sweat coming down his face and asked to return the two tokens for cash because he found balls down there. So that really begs the question- are you paying for use of the range? Those little metal coins aren't cheap and having to pay for them quite regularly because you give them out to everyone that pays for a round would become redundant IMO.

It's not about penny pinching- its about making things easier and avoiding situations like the above. Did the $6 make a difference in the grand scheme of things? No but things like that can and should be avoided IMO. In golf now, everything is given away and when you have a good product you don't have to do that. A simple question while the customer is paying that adds $x to your round doesn't seem like a big deal to me but again, I'm willing to admit that not everyone is going to see it the same way that I do.

[Hot Rod 71]

What about the customers who do not want range balls? I work at a course part-time and there are many golfers that play there who never hit range balls before their round. Now I understand the argument that when range balls are included in the greens fees, and you choose not to use them, that's your loss. However, there are many people who would rather just have $5 off their round, and would feel cheated if they didn't get it. Would those players return to a course that over-charges them (in their mind) for a round of golf? What would they tell their friends?

[bruinsPATSirish]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371571683' post='7272732']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1371560612' post='7270882']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371527492' post='7269410']
The last comment I don't understand.... you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls? I don't understand how charging two separate prices for golf and range is a big deal? Public golf courses that have a driving range cannot just set golf balls out for the public. Purchasing range balls are very expensive and to get that money back you have to actually charge to use the range and have some accountability to know who, when and what times range balls are being paid for with and without a round of golf. Either way I guess I don't have to "get" everything but that last plight seems pretty inconsequential to me.

[/quote]

He didn't say that. re-read his post. He's willing to pay $54 at once. There's nothing stopping them from charging for a bucket of balls if someone wants to just do that. But to charge only a greens fee, and then charge for range balls on top of it, particularly the further up you get in terms of quality of course, gives off the impression of nickel and diming. It's expensive to cut the grass on the course as well, but you don't see the course breaking down the green fee. They figure out the price they think will get them the traffic they want and bring in the revenue they want. Why is the range such a separate thing?

You want accountability, have the machine with the token. After all, your place isn't just setting out balls, so unless someone is there handing them out, there must be a machine. A person who paid for a round, gets a token. A person who paid for a bucket gets a token. A person who didn't pay for either of those, doesn't. How difficult is that?

Plus, don't forget, it's not about "well it costs me x to have this, so I need to charge x+y". It's about what gets people in the door. As a consumer I am asking, where is the value? Am I getting value for my money? And then there's the optics. Why not charge $55 and include the range balls, rather than $50, and then $5 separately. It gives the impression that I can expect a fee to everything. And the range isn't like food, where it is a completely different product. Warming up before round is frankly part of the round in my eyes, since I'd like to try and score on the first four holes rather than try and find my swing and get loose on them. The attitude in the past seems to have been, "I have a golf course here, and you will come here and do things the way I say." Which is fine, but people have options these days that weren't there before. The view needs to be "how do I get people to my facility, and keep them coming back."
[/quote]

I don't need to re-read his post... I totally got it. I think you need to re-read mine. Nowhere did I say he didn't want to pay for range balls and its in my first sentence. I said "you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls" which implies he wants one fee for all of it. My opinion is- its totally inconsequential and I don't agree with it. I don't have a real direct opinion on it because it would not change my view of the course or enjoyment of the day. I understand that people are going to have differing opinions and that's OK but having been on the "wrong side" of the counter that's just how I think it should be done. I would rather know who sees value in the range to pay for it (and use it) because if you gave out a token to every golfer that paid for a round of golf you would a) have a lot of tokens out there b) have guys that used the token and then left tons of un-hit range balls at the range and c) lose the ability to actually charge for the range because most people would just go down to hit balls they didn't pay for. Last week I had a guy come on a busy Saturday morning (there was a traveling group that morning that got a free token with paid greens fee) come just to practice, he paid $6 for 2 tokens and went to the range. He came back an hour later with sweat coming down his face and asked to return the two tokens for cash because he found balls down there. So that really begs the question- are you paying for use of the range? Those little metal coins aren't cheap and having to pay for them quite regularly because you give them out to everyone that pays for a round would become redundant IMO.

It's not about penny pinching- its about making things easier and avoiding situations like the above. Did the $6 make a difference in the grand scheme of things? No but things like that can and should be avoided IMO. In golf now, everything is given away and when you have a good product you don't have to do that. A simple question while the customer is paying that adds $x to your round doesn't seem like a big deal to me but again, I'm willing to admit that not everyone is going to see it the same way that I do.
[/quote]

Nail on the head. Thank you.

Some people just won't be able to see it from our perspective because they are the guy who wants the refund for his tokens because he went and hit the 125 balls that other guys left sitting on the range. We see it from the expense/revenue view and they see it from the customer/value side. Our course already has value, if you want to use the practice facility buy some range balls.

[Petethreeput]

[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1371645156' post='7280398']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371571683' post='7272732']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1371560612' post='7270882']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371527492' post='7269410']
The last comment I don't understand.... you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls? I don't understand how charging two separate prices for golf and range is a big deal? Public golf courses that have a driving range cannot just set golf balls out for the public. Purchasing range balls are very expensive and to get that money back you have to actually charge to use the range and have some accountability to know who, when and what times range balls are being paid for with and without a round of golf. Either way I guess I don't have to "get" everything but that last plight seems pretty inconsequential to me.

[/quote]

He didn't say that. re-read his post. He's willing to pay $54 at once. There's nothing stopping them from charging for a bucket of balls if someone wants to just do that. But to charge only a greens fee, and then charge for range balls on top of it, particularly the further up you get in terms of quality of course, gives off the impression of nickel and diming. It's expensive to cut the grass on the course as well, but you don't see the course breaking down the green fee. They figure out the price they think will get them the traffic they want and bring in the revenue they want. Why is the range such a separate thing?

You want accountability, have the machine with the token. After all, your place isn't just setting out balls, so unless someone is there handing them out, there must be a machine. A person who paid for a round, gets a token. A person who paid for a bucket gets a token. A person who didn't pay for either of those, doesn't. How difficult is that?

Plus, don't forget, it's not about "well it costs me x to have this, so I need to charge x+y". It's about what gets people in the door. As a consumer I am asking, where is the value? Am I getting value for my money? And then there's the optics. Why not charge $55 and include the range balls, rather than $50, and then $5 separately. It gives the impression that I can expect a fee to everything. And the range isn't like food, where it is a completely different product. Warming up before round is frankly part of the round in my eyes, since I'd like to try and score on the first four holes rather than try and find my swing and get loose on them. The attitude in the past seems to have been, "I have a golf course here, and you will come here and do things the way I say." Which is fine, but people have options these days that weren't there before. The view needs to be "how do I get people to my facility, and keep them coming back."
[/quote]

I don't need to re-read his post... I totally got it. I think you need to re-read mine. Nowhere did I say he didn't want to pay for range balls and its in my first sentence. I said "you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls" which implies he wants one fee for all of it. My opinion is- its totally inconsequential and I don't agree with it. I don't have a real direct opinion on it because it would not change my view of the course or enjoyment of the day. I understand that people are going to have differing opinions and that's OK but having been on the "wrong side" of the counter that's just how I think it should be done. I would rather know who sees value in the range to pay for it (and use it) because if you gave out a token to every golfer that paid for a round of golf you would a) have a lot of tokens out there b) have guys that used the token and then left tons of un-hit range balls at the range and c) lose the ability to actually charge for the range because most people would just go down to hit balls they didn't pay for. Last week I had a guy come on a busy Saturday morning (there was a traveling group that morning that got a free token with paid greens fee) come just to practice, he paid $6 for 2 tokens and went to the range. He came back an hour later with sweat coming down his face and asked to return the two tokens for cash because he found balls down there. So that really begs the question- are you paying for use of the range? Those little metal coins aren't cheap and having to pay for them quite regularly because you give them out to everyone that pays for a round would become redundant IMO.

It's not about penny pinching- its about making things easier and avoiding situations like the above. Did the $6 make a difference in the grand scheme of things? No but things like that can and should be avoided IMO. In golf now, everything is given away and when you have a good product you don't have to do that. A simple question while the customer is paying that adds $x to your round doesn't seem like a big deal to me but again, I'm willing to admit that not everyone is going to see it the same way that I do.
[/quote]

Nail on the head. Thank you.

Some people just won't be able to see it from our perspective because they are the guy who wants the refund for his tokens because he went and hit the 125 balls that other guys left sitting on the range. We see it from the expense/revenue view and they see it from the customer/value side. Our course already has value, if you want to use the practice facility buy some range balls.
[/quote]

As the guy who doesn't like to pay for range balls pre-round, I completely get what you both are saying. And I did not think about people going to the range without playing. Having said this...

Actually, I think JW you explained my position. I am not saying that people shouldn't be charged for use of the range, but you have given a great example. IF the guy pays $6 to use the range, and the balls are out there, he doesn't come asking for a refund. Charge for use of the range, for sure, but don't tack it on after the greens fee.

And, let's say you send off 100 golfers a day. 20% probably show up 10 minutes before the round, so only 80 use the range. But you have, built into the greens fee, a $4 charge for use of the range. Clearly, those 20 people see value in the course as it is, so they show up to play. The course just netted $80 for "nothing," (I understand fixed and variable costs so that discussion can be left out). The margins go up, it is that simple.

In the grand scheme of things a course would be doing a couple of things; range balls included generally connotes a "higher end" course, margins go up, and it generally creates good will with the visiting golfers (IMO).

Have you, in the pro shop, ever said to someone, "The greens fee is X, and we offer complimentary range balls to our golfers." And then the golfer says, "Can I ask if I could have the $4 back for the complimentary range balls, I don't plan on using them."?

[howellhandmade]

I'm just happy when the course HAS a range. I don't like my first ball of the day to be off the first tee, but on the courses nearest to me that's just the way it is.

[Willie Malay]

What bothers me more is people that don't know the difference between then and than.

A six pack purchase can be for a .....whole group? Some people do buy for others? Our's is not nearly that much. More like $11-15 a 6.

[Dizz]

[quote name='Petethreeput' timestamp='1371653798' post='7281554']
[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1371645156' post='7280398']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371571683' post='7272732']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1371560612' post='7270882']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371527492' post='7269410']
The last comment I don't understand.... you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls? I don't understand how charging two separate prices for golf and range is a big deal? Public golf courses that have a driving range cannot just set golf balls out for the public. Purchasing range balls are very expensive and to get that money back you have to actually charge to use the range and have some accountability to know who, when and what times range balls are being paid for with and without a round of golf. Either way I guess I don't have to "get" everything but that last plight seems pretty inconsequential to me.

[/quote]

He didn't say that. re-read his post. He's willing to pay $54 at once. There's nothing stopping them from charging for a bucket of balls if someone wants to just do that. But to charge only a greens fee, and then charge for range balls on top of it, particularly the further up you get in terms of quality of course, gives off the impression of nickel and diming. It's expensive to cut the grass on the course as well, but you don't see the course breaking down the green fee. They figure out the price they think will get them the traffic they want and bring in the revenue they want. Why is the range such a separate thing?

You want accountability, have the machine with the token. After all, your place isn't just setting out balls, so unless someone is there handing them out, there must be a machine. A person who paid for a round, gets a token. A person who paid for a bucket gets a token. A person who didn't pay for either of those, doesn't. How difficult is that?

Plus, don't forget, it's not about "well it costs me x to have this, so I need to charge x+y". It's about what gets people in the door. As a consumer I am asking, where is the value? Am I getting value for my money? And then there's the optics. Why not charge $55 and include the range balls, rather than $50, and then $5 separately. It gives the impression that I can expect a fee to everything. And the range isn't like food, where it is a completely different product. Warming up before round is frankly part of the round in my eyes, since I'd like to try and score on the first four holes rather than try and find my swing and get loose on them. The attitude in the past seems to have been, "I have a golf course here, and you will come here and do things the way I say." Which is fine, but people have options these days that weren't there before. The view needs to be "how do I get people to my facility, and keep them coming back."
[/quote]

I don't need to re-read his post... I totally got it. I think you need to re-read mine. Nowhere did I say he didn't want to pay for range balls and its in my first sentence. I said "you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls" which implies he wants one fee for all of it. My opinion is- its totally inconsequential and I don't agree with it. I don't have a real direct opinion on it because it would not change my view of the course or enjoyment of the day. I understand that people are going to have differing opinions and that's OK but having been on the "wrong side" of the counter that's just how I think it should be done. I would rather know who sees value in the range to pay for it (and use it) because if you gave out a token to every golfer that paid for a round of golf you would a) have a lot of tokens out there b) have guys that used the token and then left tons of un-hit range balls at the range and c) lose the ability to actually charge for the range because most people would just go down to hit balls they didn't pay for. Last week I had a guy come on a busy Saturday morning (there was a traveling group that morning that got a free token with paid greens fee) come just to practice, he paid $6 for 2 tokens and went to the range. He came back an hour later with sweat coming down his face and asked to return the two tokens for cash because he found balls down there. So that really begs the question- are you paying for use of the range? Those little metal coins aren't cheap and having to pay for them quite regularly because you give them out to everyone that pays for a round would become redundant IMO.

It's not about penny pinching- its about making things easier and avoiding situations like the above. Did the $6 make a difference in the grand scheme of things? No but things like that can and should be avoided IMO. In golf now, everything is given away and when you have a good product you don't have to do that. A simple question while the customer is paying that adds $x to your round doesn't seem like a big deal to me but again, I'm willing to admit that not everyone is going to see it the same way that I do.
[/quote]

Nail on the head. Thank you.

Some people just won't be able to see it from our perspective because they are the guy who wants the refund for his tokens because he went and hit the 125 balls that other guys left sitting on the range. We see it from the expense/revenue view and they see it from the customer/value side. Our course already has value, if you want to use the practice facility buy some range balls.
[/quote]

As the guy who doesn't like to pay for range balls pre-round, I completely get what you both are saying. And I did not think about people going to the range without playing. Having said this...

Actually, I think JW you explained my position. I am not saying that people shouldn't be charged for use of the range, but you have given a great example. IF the guy pays $6 to use the range, and the balls are out there, he doesn't come asking for a refund. Charge for use of the range, for sure, but don't tack it on after the greens fee.

And, let's say you send off 100 golfers a day. 20% probably show up 10 minutes before the round, so only 80 use the range. But you have, built into the greens fee, a $4 charge for use of the range. Clearly, those 20 people see value in the course as it is, so they show up to play. The course just netted $80 for "nothing," (I understand fixed and variable costs so that discussion can be left out). The margins go up, it is that simple.

In the grand scheme of things a course would be doing a couple of things; range balls included generally connotes a "higher end" course, margins go up, and it generally creates good will with the visiting golfers (IMO).

Have you, in the pro shop, ever said to someone, "The greens fee is X, and we offer complimentary range balls to our golfers." And then the golfer says, "Can I ask if I could have the $4 back for the complimentary range balls, I don't plan on using them."?
[/quote]

Have I? No but the only place I've ever worked where range balls came with the round was a semi-private, resort style club. The golf course I'm a golf pro at is in Ohio and the Weekend morning rate is $55 so its definitely on the higher end of public golf... top 20 in the state for many years. Again, I'm not saying I'm right it just makes sense in my mind to specifically charge for range balls. I'm not saying you're POV is wrong though.

To touch on your question though- we have been running a special for $28 during the week which includes cart, and a lunch ticket. On the receipt the lunch ticket is rang in for $4. I had several golfers ask if they could just have the $4 back than the "free lunch." Last month we did something similar where it came with use of the range with a paid round of golf and originally the plan was to do as you said- give out a token to the paying customers. However after one day we had given out all of our tokens and the process of buying more and actually being accountable for them became too much when giving them out for free. I think your numbers are accurate about the number of players showing up very close to their starting time and not using the range or just not using the range for whatever reason. That left us with a lot of unused range tokens in possession of the public.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this but if I was visiting a course this wouldn't be enough to put me off but to each his own.

By the way, the $6 we saved from our example is lost several times over when people hit free range balls because you can get them without paying. Also, I think its valuable to see who actually finds the range valuable enough to pay for it and not just "range revenue is up" because we have golfers and they have no choice. I've found most players would rather have a lower fee, so $55 for golf and cart looks better than $59 with golf, cart and range... I know I would view it that way.

[Dizz]

[quote name='Willie Malay' timestamp='1371655550' post='7281880']
What bothers me more is people that don't know the difference between then and than.

A six pack purchase can be for a .....whole group? Some people do buy for others? Our's is not nearly that much. More like $11-15 a 6.
[/quote]

Our's? That's even worse!

[nitram]

I thought Andy Rooney passed away a few years ago.......

[Petethreeput]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371677620' post='7284926']
[quote name='Petethreeput' timestamp='1371653798' post='7281554']
[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1371645156' post='7280398']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371571683' post='7272732']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1371560612' post='7270882']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1371527492' post='7269410']
The last comment I don't understand.... you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls? I don't understand how charging two separate prices for golf and range is a big deal? Public golf courses that have a driving range cannot just set golf balls out for the public. Purchasing range balls are very expensive and to get that money back you have to actually charge to use the range and have some accountability to know who, when and what times range balls are being paid for with and without a round of golf. Either way I guess I don't have to "get" everything but that last plight seems pretty inconsequential to me.

[/quote]

He didn't say that. re-read his post. He's willing to pay $54 at once. There's nothing stopping them from charging for a bucket of balls if someone wants to just do that. But to charge only a greens fee, and then charge for range balls on top of it, particularly the further up you get in terms of quality of course, gives off the impression of nickel and diming. It's expensive to cut the grass on the course as well, but you don't see the course breaking down the green fee. They figure out the price they think will get them the traffic they want and bring in the revenue they want. Why is the range such a separate thing?

You want accountability, have the machine with the token. After all, your place isn't just setting out balls, so unless someone is there handing them out, there must be a machine. A person who paid for a round, gets a token. A person who paid for a bucket gets a token. A person who didn't pay for either of those, doesn't. How difficult is that?

Plus, don't forget, it's not about "well it costs me x to have this, so I need to charge x+y". It's about what gets people in the door. As a consumer I am asking, where is the value? Am I getting value for my money? And then there's the optics. Why not charge $55 and include the range balls, rather than $50, and then $5 separately. It gives the impression that I can expect a fee to everything. And the range isn't like food, where it is a completely different product. Warming up before round is frankly part of the round in my eyes, since I'd like to try and score on the first four holes rather than try and find my swing and get loose on them. The attitude in the past seems to have been, "I have a golf course here, and you will come here and do things the way I say." Which is fine, but people have options these days that weren't there before. The view needs to be "how do I get people to my facility, and keep them coming back."
[/quote]

I don't need to re-read his post... I totally got it. I think you need to re-read mine. Nowhere did I say he didn't want to pay for range balls and its in my first sentence. I said "you'd rather not know how much you're paying for range balls" which implies he wants one fee for all of it. My opinion is- its totally inconsequential and I don't agree with it. I don't have a real direct opinion on it because it would not change my view of the course or enjoyment of the day. I understand that people are going to have differing opinions and that's OK but having been on the "wrong side" of the counter that's just how I think it should be done. I would rather know who sees value in the range to pay for it (and use it) because if you gave out a token to every golfer that paid for a round of golf you would a) have a lot of tokens out there b) have guys that used the token and then left tons of un-hit range balls at the range and c) lose the ability to actually charge for the range because most people would just go down to hit balls they didn't pay for. Last week I had a guy come on a busy Saturday morning (there was a traveling group that morning that got a free token with paid greens fee) come just to practice, he paid $6 for 2 tokens and went to the range. He came back an hour later with sweat coming down his face and asked to return the two tokens for cash because he found balls down there. So that really begs the question- are you paying for use of the range? Those little metal coins aren't cheap and having to pay for them quite regularly because you give them out to everyone that pays for a round would become redundant IMO.

It's not about penny pinching- its about making things easier and avoiding situations like the above. Did the $6 make a difference in the grand scheme of things? No but things like that can and should be avoided IMO. In golf now, everything is given away and when you have a good product you don't have to do that. A simple question while the customer is paying that adds $x to your round doesn't seem like a big deal to me but again, I'm willing to admit that not everyone is going to see it the same way that I do.
[/quote]

Nail on the head. Thank you.

Some people just won't be able to see it from our perspective because they are the guy who wants the refund for his tokens because he went and hit the 125 balls that other guys left sitting on the range. We see it from the expense/revenue view and they see it from the customer/value side. Our course already has value, if you want to use the practice facility buy some range balls.
[/quote]

As the guy who doesn't like to pay for range balls pre-round, I completely get what you both are saying. And I did not think about people going to the range without playing. Having said this...

Actually, I think JW you explained my position. I am not saying that people shouldn't be charged for use of the range, but you have given a great example. IF the guy pays $6 to use the range, and the balls are out there, he doesn't come asking for a refund. Charge for use of the range, for sure, but don't tack it on after the greens fee.

And, let's say you send off 100 golfers a day. 20% probably show up 10 minutes before the round, so only 80 use the range. But you have, built into the greens fee, a $4 charge for use of the range. Clearly, those 20 people see value in the course as it is, so they show up to play. The course just netted $80 for "nothing," (I understand fixed and variable costs so that discussion can be left out). The margins go up, it is that simple.

In the grand scheme of things a course would be doing a couple of things; range balls included generally connotes a "higher end" course, margins go up, and it generally creates good will with the visiting golfers (IMO).

Have you, in the pro shop, ever said to someone, "The greens fee is X, and we offer complimentary range balls to our golfers." And then the golfer says, "Can I ask if I could have the $4 back for the complimentary range balls, I don't plan on using them."?
[/quote]

Have I? No but the only place I've ever worked where range balls came with the round was a semi-private, resort style club. The golf course I'm a golf pro at is in Ohio and the Weekend morning rate is $55 so its definitely on the higher end of public golf... top 20 in the state for many years. Again, I'm not saying I'm right it just makes sense in my mind to specifically charge for range balls. I'm not saying you're POV is wrong though.

To touch on your question though- we have been running a special for $28 during the week which includes cart, and a lunch ticket. On the receipt the lunch ticket is rang in for $4. I had several golfers ask if they could just have the $4 back than the "free lunch." Last month we did something similar where it came with use of the range with a paid round of golf and originally the plan was to do as you said- give out a token to the paying customers. However after one day we had given out all of our tokens and the process of buying more and actually being accountable for them became too much when giving them out for free. I think your numbers are accurate about the number of players showing up very close to their starting time and not using the range or just not using the range for whatever reason. That left us with a lot of unused range tokens in possession of the public.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this but if I was visiting a course this wouldn't be enough to put me off but to each his own.

By the way, the $6 we saved from our example is lost several times over when people hit free range balls because you can get them without paying. Also, I think its valuable to see who actually finds the range valuable enough to pay for it and not just "range revenue is up" because we have golfers and they have no choice. I've found most players would rather have a lower fee, so $55 for golf and cart looks better than $59 with golf, cart and range... I know I would view it that way.
[/quote]

You definitely have a better view of it than I from a logistics perspective... and have seen much more than I. So I will defer. I will say though, it is unfathomable to me that someone would ask for a refund for an included package. That is something I don't think I could imagine, but I believe it if you have seen/heard/lived it. I also find it unbelievable that someone would come to a range and not pay for the opportunity to use the facility.

With these factors added into the mix, your philosophy definitely makes sense.

[bruinsPATSirish]

Unfortunately you are the minority by not doing those things at a course. It's too bad but the majority would abuse and take advantage of a facility that just had an "open range" style.

The only clubs that works at our resorts, private clubs, and very high end low volume courses. A Semi private like ours would be over run and bogged down by a range with "balls included" just from the sheer number of balls that would be out on the range everyday. We would have to staff someone just to pick and wash balls for the better part of the day.

[sunningotter]

[quote name='needfasp3ed' timestamp='1371509272' post='7266922']
[quote name='sunningotter' timestamp='1371402961' post='7255122']
1) Hmm, I just lay my cash on the counter and I'm out of there.
2) [b]Why are you killing a sixer at the course; remind me to stay off the road...[/b]
3) As the last heir to the throne of Gondor, their purpose is to foil Sauron and the minions of Mordor (couldn't resist)... Actually, by helping to look for lost balls, they may be trying to speed up play in a "friendly" way. I've used them for info on new courses (I play faster when I don't lose my ball in a hard-to-see chasm in the middle of the fairway).
4) Nail on the head; consumables (balls, tees, gloves, UMBRELLA) that you don't have and need, they have you over a barrel. If you are buying a club from the pro shop, you should be getting help in fitting from the pro. Clothes, only if you need the club logo...
5) I'm there to golf, not eat. Actually, some are better than others. If you don't like the food, don't eat there... I'm able to find a decent burger joint close by (but then, I'm in Portland...), [possibly as I haven't just had six beers]

And, I think you mean the value of the experience to the player; I don't expect them to increase my net worth, or value as a human being (or value on the open market; my wife might mind...).
[/quote]

6 bud lights in a 4-5 hour round would leave an average sized man under the legal .08 limit. Not necessarily suggested, but legal.
[/quote]

If I drank Bud-lights, they would make me move out of Portland... And I hadn't thought about drinking while playing; I usually walk the course and am drinking water the entire time to stay hydrated. I save my beer for afterwards when I can enjoy it (more microbreweries per capita than anywhere else).

[Monster11]

[quote name='FadeOnly' timestamp='1371429646' post='7259004']
[quote name='mallrat' timestamp='1371423892' post='7258070']
Why are we talking about Ford trucks or dudes that chase Yogi the bear?

One thing that drives me nuts is people think golf is a good excuse to drink and drive. NO IT'S NOT.
[/quote]

What the h*ll are you talking about?
[/quote]
+1

[Mr 61]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1371511889' post='7267242']
Mr 61, I can't help but noticed by many of your posts here that you overall, are annoyed by quite alot of things.


[/quote]

Just stirring up conversation son.

[596]

Bad things happen when you mix sunshine, heat, golf and alcohol. I'm not sure why people go to play a sport and feel the need to slug down 6-12 beers out there. Most of these people bring their own beer and small travel size bottles of liqour. There are better places to drink alcohol and the golf course is not one of them. I've seen many people staggering to their cars after a round.

As far as bad things that happen.....I won't go there.....but you don't want to ever experience what the guy did, or should I say....is doing. Or another guy that no longer has a right leg. Guess I was a cop for too long and saw many many times the horrible end results of alcohol, heat and sports.

OK....rant over

[596]

Range balls included in a greens fee? Lot's of people will want a discount as they won't use the range balls. You'll be hearing all day long......"I don't want the range balls, so can I get $8 off the fee?". I'll go out on a limb and note that well more then 50% of the people that use our course don't even know where the range is. They won't want to pay the slightly higher fee to include something they won't use. I'm for keeping the greens fees separate from range fees.

[thug the bunny]

5 things that make me go HMMMMM?

1. Why, if all our major religions teach tolerance, loving your enemy, and non-retaliation, are all societies based upon violent deterence and retribution (justice systems and militaries)?

2. Why, if all men are created equal, can money still buy justice and favorable adjudication?

3. Why are actors looked at as gods, and given the power to make judgements on all sorts of matters about which they are totally clueless?

4. Why do we put up with rampant and blatant waste, fraud, and abuse in our governments?

5. How is it that packs of hot dogs and hot dog buns STILL do not match?

[Playaway]

[quote name='Mr 61' timestamp='1371398533' post='7254700']
Each time I go to a golf course, I notice that same things that annoy me.

1.) Why does it take so long to pay? Each time I pay, I feel like I could buy a new car in the same amount of time. The cashier seems to be clicking around on the computer way too much. Sure, I'm not familiar with the software, but if it requires 20 clicks, it's out-of-date.

2.) Why is alcohol so expensive? I understand that alcohol will likely be more expensive at a golf course then a convenience store. But, why does it cost 5x more? For example, a 6-pack of Bud at the store is around $6-7. At my club, the same 6-pack, at happy hour prices (buy 5 get one free) costs $25. Then, you have to tip--so call it $30. Many courses try to prohibit outside alcohol from entering the course. Couldn't they simply charge a reasonable amount and people would be less tempted to bring their own?

3.) What is the purpose of a Ranger? I've been playing golf for 16 years and have never once seen a Ranger do anything that I'm expecting them to. Aren't they there to ensure a quick pace of play? I usually see them driving around looking for golf balls. So, my green fee is more to pay this guys salary, while I get absolutely no value.

4.) Why is Pro Shop merchandise so expensive? I understand that Pro Shop probably doesn't have the buying power of a Golfsmith. But, perhaps they could if they charged a reasonable amount. However, I think most Pro Shops are targeting the convenience side of the market. They know that if you arrive at a golf course without balls, tees, or a glove you're willing to pay the premium. What about clubs? Who is buying a club at a Pro Shop without shop credit or something?

5.) Why is the food so terrible? Everything is usually frozen and taste like crap. I think that at a minimum a course should be able to make a good burger--not frozen. Hell, give me a deal on a meal & beer with the purchase of an 18 hole round and I'm there! This could reduce the risk of fresh food going bad since many more people will be there to eat.

Can you think of something a golf course could do better to increase the player's value?
[/quote]

1. I would pay an extra $10.00 in an "express line". Hate waiting in line to pay for overpriced golf. Paying an extra $10 or $20 is no big deal, you're usually getting effed anyway, might as well take the big one.

2. I do not drink when I play. But after the round I am a +5 in the grill. If the grill charges ridiculous prices they do not get my business.

3. Rangers are a good thing overall. Most of the time they help move things along.

4. When it comes to high end goods, 20% of the people buy 80% of the stuff. You and I are in the lower 80%.

5. I am tough to please when it comes to food. And I think the food at golf courses can be great for what it is. I even gps golf courses while traveling because I'd rather go there than a mickeyD's or other fast food places. I am thinking of 5 courses right now who have a great burger or breakfast where the food is fresh and freshly prepared. Frozen? You playing a $10.00 9-holer?

[cardoustie]

Hmmmm
More perspective from a Canadian, in Canada's biggest city:

1. Why are tall boys of beer $9 EACH !! + + at our track?
2. Why are my annual dues the same as US courses but we have a 7 month season at best?
3. Why are my dues expected to be paid 2 months before our course opens in late April if we are lucky?
4. My pro shop is actually cheaper than Golf Town .. and I believe in supporting your head pro
5. I've met one good ranger in 33 years of golfing but the two starters at my home track are the best in the biz. I don't need tee times

[tocino]

1.) I don't sweat the wait time during "rush hour". My home course is the closest public one for at least 3 of the cities in my area and it tends to get packed. I just make sure I'm there early if I want to keep my tee time or practice before hand

2.) I might buy a deuce-deuce every now and again but I ususally don't drink on course anymore. My work buddies who I just got into golf still bring a 12 pack but I'm hoping I slowly wean them off the need to shotgun a beer every other hole

3.) I think the rangers at most of the courses I play at are all volunteers. They've helped me a few times trying to find my ball. I've seen them tell a group ahead of us to hurry-up a couple times so I dont' have to (avoids confrontation).

4.) If I like the course i [i]may [/i]buy a polo shirt but I generally won't buy any clubs there (that's what the BST is for!)

5.) I tend to avoid the food. Like some people mentioned already if I have to eat, nothing beats a hotdog in a pinch.

[butch33611]

# 1. I ran a course years ago. There was no software. We had a cash register. You rang up the green fee and half a cart. He handed you money, you gave him his change and a key...next. The whole transaction took 30 seconds. I don't get all this pointing and clicking either. Its like the guy is checking his face book page while taking my money.

[596]

[quote name='butch33611' timestamp='1391807381' post='8618443']
# 1. I ran a course years ago. There was no software. We had a cash register. You rang up the green fee and half a cart. He handed you money, you gave him his change and a key...next. The whole transaction took 30 seconds. I don't get all this pointing and clicking either. Its like the guy is checking his face book page while taking my money.
[/quote]

Yes computers, computer programs and point of sale are not necessarily there to speed things up for each transaction. It'll actually slow things down on the front end. The programs begin to shine in the back office, where we never see it [size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size]

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='butch33611' timestamp='1391807381' post='8618443']
# 1. I ran a course years ago. There was no software. We had a cash register. You rang up the green fee and half a cart. He handed you money, you gave him his change and a key...next. The whole transaction took 30 seconds. I don't get all this pointing and clicking either. Its like the guy is checking his face book page while taking my money.
[/quote]

Yup, hate this as well. One of the courses I play takes 2-3 minutes per golfer. Doesn't sound like a lot but if four or five guys get in front of you there goes your practice green time. Just let me hand you the cash and go!

[596]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1391798253' post='8617355']
5 things that make me go HMMMMM?

1. Why, if all our major religions teach tolerance, loving your enemy, and non-retaliation, are all societies based upon violent deterence and retribution (justice systems and militaries)?

2. Why, if all men are created equal, can money still buy justice and favorable adjudication?

[b]3. Why are actors looked at as gods, and given the power to make judgements on all sorts of matters about which they are totally clueless?[/b]

4. Why do we put up with rampant and blatant waste, fraud, and abuse in our governments?

5. How is it that packs of hot dogs and hot dog buns STILL do not match?
[/quote]

LOL......we even vote them to offices such as Governor and President only because everybody knows their name.