Snead, Hogan & Nicklaus vs Tiger, Rory Etc.

[spiffdogxl]

There are a lot of assumptions here that make meaningful analysis impossible and I'll point out two big ones:

First we are assuming that these injuries to professional golfers are a result of how they play golf. Second we are assuming that there is a spine position that is universally capable of handling the stress of 120+mph impacts for thousands of impacts each day.

[gabh]

I tend to agree with DJ here. The Snead Hogan Nicklaus posture is the more neutral one in the sense that it's the most relaxed one, meaning they don't consciously alter their spines to make it slouch more nor straighten more. So I think a better description is the natural spine position when you're holding a club and bending over, whether by a bit or by a lot.

Swing wise or mechanics wise, it allows them to rotate the shoulders more on plane (without shoulder plane shifts).

[MadGolfer76]

Hmmm...I don't know if I really have much of an opinion on this, but the older guys certainly looked much more relaxed behind the ball. Less tense to my eye anyway. I wonder if, in engaging a "straighter" spine angle, some secondary issues arise in the form of tension in certain connective tissues that are more susceptible to stress.

[TB07]

When you bend forward from the hips alone the spine does not "slouch" either way. It's in its "natural" state. Bending from the hips DOES NOT engage the spine straighter. Nicklaus and Snead bend the spine MORE than what is neutral.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392255774' post='8656307']
I tend to agree with DJ here. The Snead Hogan Nicklaus posture is the more neutral one in the sense that it's the most relaxed one, meaning they don't consciously alter their spines to make it slouch more nor straighten more. So I think a better description is the natural spine position when you're holding a club and bending over, whether by a bit or by a lot.

Swing wise or mechanics wise, it allows them to rotate the shoulders more on plane (without shoulder plane shifts).
[/quote]

...if you have weak support muscles in your glutes and back then the position is relaxed. For me I have to use a lot of effort to setup like Snead or Nicklaus. Theres nothing relaxed about it. Their spines are not neutral (old guys, not modern).

To turn the shoulders on plane you have to extend more from that position. Snead, Nicklaus are starting from a position which allows them to cover a small range of motion. The modern guys are setup in a way to cover the correct range of motion more effectively and require less compensatory maneuvers in the backswing. Some people need to setup strange because the added time it takes to get out of those positions affects their rhythm.

[gabh]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1392255862' post='8656321']
Hmmm...I don't know if I really have much of an opinion on this, but the older guys certainly looked much more relaxed behind the ball. Less tense to my eye anyway. I wonder if, in engaging a "straighter" spine angle, some secondary issues arise in the form of tension in certain connective tissues that are more susceptible to stress.
[/quote]

I think so, and this is not only from studying, seeking advise, but also from personal experience. Just trying to straighten up my spine results to back pain sooner or later. When I try to experiment with this when the slight pain is starting to pop up, the pain is exacerbated. When I just try to relax, either it goes away or the pain didn't exacerbate. My analysis is the "straighten the spine effort" tenses up the muscles and tendons and nerves in my lower back so much so that when you twist and untwist them, they get stressed unnecessarily. Maybe doctors should chime in here because this is I think a cause for concern, more importantly I think than swing mechanics (thought as I said it got something to do with it).

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392247230' post='8655277']
Being great golfers made those fellows Hall-of-Famers! But the way they swung had a good part to do with it, I'm pretty sure.

[b]My point was about risk of injury by altering the spine position when swinging,[/b] but I'll address your reference to excellence by pointing out that Sam Snead learned to hit a ball whacking stones with a stick, and Jack Nicklaus had basically the same swing his career that he grooved as a kid.

Now, if Tiger's and the modern swings are so much better, why are they all out on the range with swing coaches? The ball hardly even curves anymore and they're wilder than ever. Why is Tiger on his third coach as a pro and talking about "finally getting it?"

The better swing would be the one that is easiest to learn and maintain, and provide superior ball-striking. I'd say Nicklaus and Snead didn't do too badly at scoring 3-3.

I'd have to give Tiger 1-3 at any point in his career. He could produce superior ball-striking, but it was never with a swing that was easy to learn and maintain.

You must always separate the swing from the game. You can be a great golfer with a lesser putting stroke, or golf swing, or overall short game. Winning doesn't prove anything than you can get the ball in the hole.

The old guys had better swings, mechanically-speaking. Even when the technique was loose, they swung freely. The best of them, had great, [i]great[/i] swings. And they didn't swing the way it's taught today, for the most part.

That's all.

Best,

DJ Watts
[/quote]

Snead and Nicklaus had to alter the spine more than the modern guys you posted. Do you know what the spine does in the golfswing?

Tigers patterns are different. You watch the golf channel too much. And what are you referring to by what is taught today? Who is your instructor?

[gabh]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392256703' post='8656413']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392255774' post='8656307']
I tend to agree with DJ here. The Snead Hogan Nicklaus posture is the more neutral one in the sense that it's the most relaxed one, meaning they don't consciously alter their spines to make it slouch more nor straighten more. So I think a better description is the natural spine position when you're holding a club and bending over, whether by a bit or by a lot.

Swing wise or mechanics wise, it allows them to rotate the shoulders more on plane (without shoulder plane shifts).
[/quote]

...if you have weak support muscles in your glutes and back then the position is relaxed. For me I have to use a lot of effort to setup like Snead or Nicklaus. Theres nothing relaxed about it. Their spines are not neutral (old guys, not modern).

To turn the shoulders on plane you have to extend more from that position. Snead, Nicklaus are starting from a position which allows them to cover a small range of motion. The modern guys are setup in a way to cover the correct range of motion more effectively and require less compensatory maneuvers in the backswing. Some people need to setup strange because the added time it takes to get out of those positions affects their rhythm.
[/quote]

I think I understand where you're coming from. Try to go to your usual address position without a club on your hand, or just try holding in to a club-heavy short stick that doesn't reach the ground at all. Then try to relax your shoulders and arms, as if you're letting them fall away from your head or ears. Coz sometimes when the club is there, it's length and your desire to get the hands closer and lower requires you to stiffen up the shoulders to get it higher or farther.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392256573' post='8656397']
When you bend forward from the hips alone the spine does not "slouch" either way. It's in its "natural" state. Bending from the hips DOES NOT engage the spine straighter. Nicklaus and Snead bend the spine MORE than what is neutral.
[/quote]

Wouldn't the natural state actually be...standing up? If that is the case, any posture most closely approximating that state would less stressful on the back. Just guessing.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392256955' post='8656453']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1392255862' post='8656321']
Hmmm...I don't know if I really have much of an opinion on this, but the older guys certainly looked much more relaxed behind the ball. Less tense to my eye anyway. I wonder if, in engaging a "straighter" spine angle, some secondary issues arise in the form of tension in certain connective tissues that are more susceptible to stress.
[/quote]

I think so, and this is not only from studying, seeking advise, but also from personal experience. Just trying to straighten up my spine results to back pain sooner or later. When I try to experiment with this when the slight pain is starting to pop up, the pain is exacerbated. When I just try to relax, either it goes away or the pain didn't exacerbate. My analysis is the "straighten the spine effort" tenses up the muscles and tendons and nerves in my lower back so much so that when you twist and untwist them, they get stressed unnecessarily. Maybe doctors should chime in here because this is I think a cause for concern, more importantly I think than swing mechanics (thought as I said it got something to do with it).
[/quote]

I would love to hear from a chiropractor on this. I think this comes down to a matter of how individual golfers physically respond when trying to "improve posture."

[PingG10guy]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbUBTUPAmc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbUBTUPAmc[/url]

[gabh]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392258161' post='8656617']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbUBTUPAmc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbUBTUPAmc[/url]
[/quote]

Why do you keep mentioning that? I think the mechanics if whether or not we left side bend and right side extend in backswing has got nothing to do with the topic at hand. As a matter of fact, if at all, relaxing the spine would make it easier doing the left side bend and right side extension.

[Hoganstriker]

Look at basic lifting safety manuals. Don't bend at the waist and lift. Don't twist while lifting. The steeper the shoulders or it would tend to be the more bent over at setup imo is a less safe position to begin from than a more upright position.
I think DJ makes some strong points here about the olden times golfers.
The other thing about it is you did not have the degree of scrutiny of the appearance of the swing back in those days.
Those guys took an easily repeatable posture with natural arm hang. Onec you start trying to hit angles in your setup it can be more difficult to repeat than just standing in a balanced ready position.
Also sometime look at someone like Snead or Hogan from dtl pre and post impact how often do you see them twisted and bent over like Tiger does?
To me what the old guys did is more natural if you will rather than some forced "ideal" position. More naturally athletic just trying to get the job done not trying to set angles and hit positions on video-more focus on the ball and where it was going.

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392256573' post='8656397']
When you bend forward from the hips alone the spine does not "slouch" either way. It's in its "natural" state. Bending from the hips DOES NOT engage the spine straighter. Nicklaus and Snead bend the spine MORE than what is neutral.
[/quote]

This.

OP has some cool anatomical pictures, but his interpretation of neutral spine is not correct. If you stand straight up and put your spine in a neutral position, then bend forward at the hip (address position), the spine is still in neutral and will in fact look exactly like Tiger, Rory, etc. Also, the hump you are referring to in the Snead/Nicklaus pictures is not the cervical spine, but thoracic.

OP try this: stand up straight and put a pvc pipe (or golf club) down the length of your spine. If your spine is in neutal, the club will contact the spine on the sacral and thoracic spine segments (and the back of the ol' cranium). Now hinge at the hip into an address position. If you maintain neutral spine, the club will continue to contact the same spinal segments. There will be a gap between the spine and the club at the lumbar and cervical segments due to their natural curvature. The modern swing looks "flat" backed, but the spine is in its neutral position.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392259907' post='8656865']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392258161' post='8656617']
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbUBTUPAmc[/media]
[/quote]

Why do you keep mentioning that? I think the mechanics if whether or not we left side bend and right side extend in backswing has got nothing to do with the topic at hand. As a matter of fact, if at all, relaxing the spine would make it easier doing the left side bend and right side extension.
[/quote]

That motion of extending and tilting is not an option...its a good golfer thing. And by relaxed you mean in neutral position right? not forcing thoracic flexion like snead and nicklaus...

[MadGolfer76]

But "neutral" in the golf stance does not mean free of pressure or tension.

[TB07]

MadGolfer,
Yes standing straight up is the natural state. Now don't do ANYTHING with your upper torso/and spine. Just hinge from your hips. Spine remains in natural state. Like the modern players. Older players are flexing their thoracic more than its natural state (or in your example, standing straight state).

DrewTaylor,

Exactly.

Pingg10 ,

Makes some great points in that the spine must extend. So when it has more flexion such as Snead and Nicklaus they must extend MORE. I believe he also quoted a chiropractor on page 1 for those asking for experts to chime in.

[gabh]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1392260451' post='8656953']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392256573' post='8656397']
When you bend forward from the hips alone the spine does not "slouch" either way. It's in its "natural" state. Bending from the hips DOES NOT engage the spine straighter. Nicklaus and Snead bend the spine MORE than what is neutral.
[/quote]

This.

OP has some cool anatomical pictures, but his interpretation of neutral spine is not correct. If you stand straight up and put your spine in a neutral position, then bend forward at the hip (address position), the spine is still in neutral and will in fact look exactly like Tiger, Rory, etc. Also, the hump you are referring to in the Snead/Nicklaus pictures is not the cervical spine, but thoracic.

OP try this: stand up straight and put a pvc pipe (or golf club) down the length of your spine. If your spine is in neutal, the club will contact the spine on the sacral and thoracic spine segments (and the back of the ol' cranium). Now hinge at the hip into an address position. If you maintain neutral spine, the club will continue to contact the same spinal segments. There will be a gap between the spine and the club at the lumbar and cervical segments due to their natural curvature. The modern swing looks "flat" backed, but the spine is in its neutral position.
[/quote]

What if his spine is naturally a bit less S-shaped (edit: more S-shaped), why would you want him to "lay" on that PVC pipe? On the downswing, his spine would naturally return on that bit more S-shaped natural position. In fact, the spine would want to be MORE S-shaped in downswing, especially if your sequence is correct (lower spine leads, upper spine gets behind).

[gabh]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392261914' post='8657085']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392259907' post='8656865']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392258161' post='8656617']
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbUBTUPAmc[/media]
[/quote]

Why do you keep mentioning that? I think the mechanics if whether or not we left side bend and right side extend in backswing has got nothing to do with the topic at hand. As a matter of fact, if at all, relaxing the spine would make it easier doing the left side bend and right side extension.
[/quote]

That motion of extending and tilting is not an option...its a good golfer thing. And by relaxed you mean in neutral position right? not forcing thoracic flexion like snead and nicklaus...
[/quote]

I think it's an option. There are people who prefers not to do it because they're moving their lower body laterally in downswing anyway; if they do the left side bend and right side extension in backswing, their upper center would move too forward. IMO, what's happening to SnT, so they struggle to obtain enough 2nd tilt and be shallow enough especially for a driver.

And there are people who just wish to do left side bend, but not right side extension (ex.: Hogan; Snead does both left side bend and right side extension in order to get hands farther and higher from the ball due to his grip).

Again, IMO, left side bend and right side extension requires one to have even MORE thoracic and cervical bend at setup. The less you do the latter stuff, the more you need the former stuff. So let's say you have a very straight thoracic and cervical at setup, you need more left side bend and right side extension. Not doing so will make you rotate your shoulders very flat or more parallel to ground.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392261940' post='8657095']
MadGolfer,
Yes standing straight up is the natural state. Now don't do ANYTHING with your upper torso/and spine. Just hinge from your hips. [b]Spine remains in natural state[/b]. Like the modern players. Older players are flexing their thoracic more than its natural state (or in your example, standing straight state).

DrewTaylor,

Exactly.

Pingg10 ,

Makes some great points in that the spine must extend. So when it has more flexion such as Snead and Nicklaus they must extend MORE. I believe he also quoted a chiropractor on page 1 for those asking for experts to chime in.
[/quote]

Yes, I understood from before what you are saying, and I am not taking a particular "side." So then, what is it about the older players that makes them look relaxed in their swings and the younger ones not so? Is the argument that many of the younger players are getting injured frequently in their prime not a fair one?

[TB07]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392262565' post='8657163']
[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1392260451' post='8656953']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392256573' post='8656397']
When you bend forward from the hips alone the spine does not "slouch" either way. It's in its "natural" state. Bending from the hips DOES NOT engage the spine straighter. Nicklaus and Snead bend the spine MORE than what is neutral.
[/quote]

This.

OP has some cool anatomical pictures, but his interpretation of neutral spine is not correct. If you stand straight up and put your spine in a neutral position, then bend forward at the hip (address position), the spine is still in neutral and will in fact look exactly like Tiger, Rory, etc. Also, the hump you are referring to in the Snead/Nicklaus pictures is not the cervical spine, but thoracic.

OP try this: stand up straight and put a pvc pipe (or golf club) down the length of your spine. If your spine is in neutal, the club will contact the spine on the sacral and thoracic spine segments (and the back of the ol' cranium). Now hinge at the hip into an address position. If you maintain neutral spine, the club will continue to contact the same spinal segments. There will be a gap between the spine and the club at the lumbar and cervical segments due to their natural curvature. The modern swing looks "flat" backed, but the spine is in its neutral position.
[/quote]

What if his spine is naturally a bit less S-shaped, why would you want him to "lay" on that PVC pipe? On the downswing, his spine would naturally return on that bit more S-shaped natural position. In fact, the spine would want to be MORE S-shaped in downswing, especially if your sequence is correct (lower spine leads, upper spine gets behind).
[/quote]

More S shaped in downswing is due to pelvis tilting and the lumbar going into extension. Not the thoracic going into flexion.

[gabh]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392263105' post='8657221']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392262565' post='8657163']
[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1392260451' post='8656953']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392256573' post='8656397']
When you bend forward from the hips alone the spine does not "slouch" either way. It's in its "natural" state. Bending from the hips DOES NOT engage the spine straighter. Nicklaus and Snead bend the spine MORE than what is neutral.
[/quote]

This.

OP has some cool anatomical pictures, but his interpretation of neutral spine is not correct. If you stand straight up and put your spine in a neutral position, then bend forward at the hip (address position), the spine is still in neutral and will in fact look exactly like Tiger, Rory, etc. Also, the hump you are referring to in the Snead/Nicklaus pictures is not the cervical spine, but thoracic.

OP try this: stand up straight and put a pvc pipe (or golf club) down the length of your spine. If your spine is in neutal, the club will contact the spine on the sacral and thoracic spine segments (and the back of the ol' cranium). Now hinge at the hip into an address position. If you maintain neutral spine, the club will continue to contact the same spinal segments. There will be a gap between the spine and the club at the lumbar and cervical segments due to their natural curvature. The modern swing looks "flat" backed, but the spine is in its neutral position.
[/quote]

What if his spine is naturally a bit less S-shaped, why would you want him to "lay" on that PVC pipe? On the downswing, his spine would naturally return on that bit more S-shaped natural position. In fact, the spine would want to be MORE S-shaped in downswing, especially if your sequence is correct (lower spine leads, upper spine gets behind).
[/quote]

More S shaped in downswing is due to the lumbar going into extension. Not the thoracic going into flexion.
[/quote]

Thoracic too if the shoulder gets behind as it should be because that means right side bend kicks in, so thoracic needs to flex bit more.

[Sean2]

I thought you put a club along your back, tilted over the ball, and your back/shaft stayed in contact. Now you are telling me that is not so? You guys...stink. ;-)

[TB07]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392263425' post='8657241']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392263105' post='8657221']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392262565' post='8657163']
[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1392260451' post='8656953']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392256573' post='8656397']
When you bend forward from the hips alone the spine does not "slouch" either way. It's in its "natural" state. Bending from the hips DOES NOT engage the spine straighter. Nicklaus and Snead bend the spine MORE than what is neutral.
[/quote]

This.

OP has some cool anatomical pictures, but his interpretation of neutral spine is not correct. If you stand straight up and put your spine in a neutral position, then bend forward at the hip (address position), the spine is still in neutral and will in fact look exactly like Tiger, Rory, etc. Also, the hump you are referring to in the Snead/Nicklaus pictures is not the cervical spine, but thoracic.

OP try this: stand up straight and put a pvc pipe (or golf club) down the length of your spine. If your spine is in neutal, the club will contact the spine on the sacral and thoracic spine segments (and the back of the ol' cranium). Now hinge at the hip into an address position. If you maintain neutral spine, the club will continue to contact the same spinal segments. There will be a gap between the spine and the club at the lumbar and cervical segments due to their natural curvature. The modern swing looks "flat" backed, but the spine is in its neutral position.
[/quote]

What if his spine is naturally a bit less S-shaped, why would you want him to "lay" on that PVC pipe? On the downswing, his spine would naturally return on that bit more S-shaped natural position. In fact, the spine would want to be MORE S-shaped in downswing, especially if your sequence is correct (lower spine leads, upper spine gets behind).
[/quote]

More S shaped in downswing is due to the lumbar going into extension. Not the thoracic going into flexion.
[/quote]

Thoracic too if the shoulder gets behind as it should be because that means right side bend kicks in, so thoracic needs to flex bit more.
[/quote]

Why does thoracic need to flex if you side bend?

[TB07]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1392262996' post='8657205']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392261940' post='8657095']
MadGolfer,
Yes standing straight up is the natural state. Now don't do ANYTHING with your upper torso/and spine. Just hinge from your hips. [b]Spine remains in natural state[/b]. Like the modern players. Older players are flexing their thoracic more than its natural state (or in your example, standing straight state).

DrewTaylor,

Exactly.

Pingg10 ,

Makes some great points in that the spine must extend. So when it has more flexion such as Snead and Nicklaus they must extend MORE. I believe he also quoted a chiropractor on page 1 for those asking for experts to chime in.
[/quote]

Yes, I understood from before what you are saying, and I am not taking a particular "side." So then, what is it about the older players that makes them look relaxed in their swings and the younger ones not so? Is the argument that many of the younger players are getting injured frequently in their prime not a fair one?
[/quote]

Not in the sense that it's related to the posture of the spine. Injuries, older players, modern players, is to vague for the argument.

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392262565' post='8657163']

What if his spine is naturally a bit less S-shaped (edit: more S-shaped), why would you want him to "lay" on that PVC pipe? On the downswing, his spine would naturally return on that bit more S-shaped natural position. In fact, the spine would want to be MORE S-shaped in downswing, especially if your sequence is correct (lower spine leads, upper spine gets behind).
[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean about "laying" on the pvc pipe. Re-read my post - should be done standing.

And it doesn't matter if his spine has more natural curve. He can still find a neutral spine position.

The S-shape changes quite a bit in a golf swing, so I'm just referring to the address position that OP was talking about originally.

None of this really even matters, the point I was trying to make is that OP's statement that the old players were in a more neutral/natural position that is better for the back is just not true. Now, the amount of hip flexion could certainly be an issue, as that does place more load into the back, but it has less to do with the natural curvature of the spine.

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1392264004' post='8657303']
I thought you put a club along your back, tilted over the ball, and your back/shaft stayed in contact. Now you are telling me that is not so? You guys...stink. ;-)
[/quote]

Just certain parts of the spine (sacral and thoracic). There should be space between the club and body at the lumbar and cervical spine segments (at address).

[gabh]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392265390' post='8657401']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392263425' post='8657241']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392263105' post='8657221']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392262565' post='8657163']
[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1392260451' post='8656953']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1392256573' post='8656397']
When you bend forward from the hips alone the spine does not "slouch" either way. It's in its "natural" state. Bending from the hips DOES NOT engage the spine straighter. Nicklaus and Snead bend the spine MORE than what is neutral.
[/quote]

This.

OP has some cool anatomical pictures, but his interpretation of neutral spine is not correct. If you stand straight up and put your spine in a neutral position, then bend forward at the hip (address position), the spine is still in neutral and will in fact look exactly like Tiger, Rory, etc. Also, the hump you are referring to in the Snead/Nicklaus pictures is not the cervical spine, but thoracic.

OP try this: stand up straight and put a pvc pipe (or golf club) down the length of your spine. If your spine is in neutal, the club will contact the spine on the sacral and thoracic spine segments (and the back of the ol' cranium). Now hinge at the hip into an address position. If you maintain neutral spine, the club will continue to contact the same spinal segments. There will be a gap between the spine and the club at the lumbar and cervical segments due to their natural curvature. The modern swing looks "flat" backed, but the spine is in its neutral position.
[/quote]

What if his spine is naturally a bit less S-shaped, why would you want him to "lay" on that PVC pipe? On the downswing, his spine would naturally return on that bit more S-shaped natural position. In fact, the spine would want to be MORE S-shaped in downswing, especially if your sequence is correct (lower spine leads, upper spine gets behind).
[/quote]

More S shaped in downswing is due to the lumbar going into extension. Not the thoracic going into flexion.
[/quote]

Thoracic too if the shoulder gets behind as it should be because that means right side bend kicks in, so thoracic needs to flex bit more.
[/quote]

Why does thoracic need to flex if you side bend?
[/quote]

Because your eyes or face are still looking at the ball and therefore your cervical is still flexed over the ball. Note that in my first post re right side bend I said the right said bend is caused by lower body move (hips or lumbar turning, whether actively or passively).

If the thoracic doesn't flex even a bit more, you will lose cervical flexion and your head will lift and move laterally.

[gabh]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1392267552' post='8657615']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392262565' post='8657163']

What if his spine is naturally a bit less S-shaped (edit: more S-shaped), why would you want him to "lay" on that PVC pipe? On the downswing, his spine would naturally return on that bit more S-shaped natural position. In fact, the spine would want to be MORE S-shaped in downswing, especially if your sequence is correct (lower spine leads, upper spine gets behind).
[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean about "laying" on the pvc pipe. Re-read my post - should be done standing.

And it doesn't matter if his spine has more natural curve. He can still find a neutral spine position.

The S-shape changes quite a bit in a golf swing, so I'm just referring to the address position that OP was talking about originally.

None of this really even matters, the point I was trying to make is that OP's statement that the old players were in a more neutral/natural position that is better for the back is just not true. Now, the amount of hip flexion could certainly be an issue, as that does place more load into the back, but it has less to do with the natural curvature of the spine.
[/quote]

My opinion is it's better for the back.

I meant the PVC pipe being layed on the back and spine conforming to it.

My point is just that if one's spine isn't naturally the same as where you lay the pipe, the spine is stressed or tensed. During twisting in backswing and untwisting in downswing, that puts more stress or tension than necessary on the spine, specifically the discs.

The discs naturally grow based on the natural space or room in between the spinal vertebra or vertebraes. When you try to straighten it like in your lay the pile drill, of this is not your spine's natural position, the discs will be compressed on one side. When you twist and untwist during the swing, those discs will be compressed even more. This is the main cause of pains because those discs would either get ruptured or compress on nearby parts of the discs and spine, both inside and outside he spine or discs. The discs are gel like, so if it's compressed it will try to look for space. This is not to mention the tendons and muscles around it and the spine.

Again, I think this is a cause for concern and doctors should chime in or be consulted.

[drewtaylor21]

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What if his spine is naturally a bit less S-shaped (edit: more S-shaped), why would you want him to "lay" on that PVC pipe? On the downswing, his spine would naturally return on that bit more S-shaped natural position. In fact, the spine would want to be MORE S-shaped in downswing, especially if your sequence is correct (lower spine leads, upper spine gets behind).
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I'm not sure what you mean about "laying" on the pvc pipe. Re-read my post - should be done standing.

And it doesn't matter if his spine has more natural curve. He can still find a neutral spine position.

The S-shape changes quite a bit in a golf swing, so I'm just referring to the address position that OP was talking about originally.

None of this really even matters, the point I was trying to make is that OP's statement that the old players were in a more neutral/natural position that is better for the back is just not true. Now, the amount of hip flexion could certainly be an issue, as that does place more load into the back, but it has less to do with the natural curvature of the spine.
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My opinion is it's better for the back.

I meant the PVC pipe being layed on the back and spine conforming to it.

My point is just that if one's spine isn't naturally the same as where you [b]lay the pipe[/b], the spine is stressed or tensed. During twisting in backswing and untwisting in downswing, that puts more stress or tension than necessary on the spine, specifically the discs.

The discs naturally grow based on the natural space or room in between the spinal vertebra or vertebraes. When you try to straighten it like in your lay the pile drill, of this is not your spine's natural position, the discs will be compressed on one side. When you twist and untwist during the swing, those discs will be compressed even more. This is the main cause of pains because those discs would either get ruptured or compress on nearby parts of the discs and spine, both inside and outside he spine or discs. The discs are gel like, so if it's compressed it will try to look for space. This is not to mention the tendons and muscles around it and the spine.

Again, I think this is a cause for concern and doctors should chime in or be consulted.
[/quote]

First let's be clear, laying pipe is a COMPLETELY different drill than what I was talking about above

Second, from your last post it sounds like you either didn't understand what I was talking about with finding neutral spine with the pvc pipe or you perhaps don't understand neutral spine. Neutral spine is always going to be healthier for the spine (and discs). If someone can't get into neutral spine, they are much more likely to be injured. This needs to be addressed prior to even thinking about golf....maybe this will help:

http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blog/the-myth-of-neutral-spine/