Left arm dominance in the Hogan swing?

[HoganAfficianado]

Can't remember this topic being discussed here. In Power Golf (p.27), Hogan says, " in placing the right hand on the club make sure that the right arm is limp and that the right elbow is pointed down. At the address there is no straightening of the right elbow. In order that the right arm will be limp and the right elbow down, one must list slightly from the right side. By list I mean that the right shoulder must be dropped and the hips faced slightly to the left".

 

To me, it seems like Hogan placed more importance and pressure into the left arm. I've heard the concept of left arm dominance discussed in putting methods but never really emphasized in the full swing. The image of his arms being bound together in 5 lessons doesn't seem to fit with the advice he gives in Power Golf. Also, when he says the hips face slightly to the left which drops the right shoulder, is he talking about turning the hips counter clockwise to the left (open position) or is it a bump of the hips towards the left side? The latter would make more sense to me. What do you guys think about placing more live tension in the lead arm at set-up?

[Pinsplitter59]

Yeahhh the left damn rotten bloody arm!
About above i posted recently the change he made from Power Golf to 5 Lessons.
in PG he shows a shaft can be put through the arms, under left elbow and over right elbow, but in 5L his arms are pretty much aligned. Haven't heard any stories about the change.
I have recently been doing left arm practice, a bit Manuel De La Torre (?? or is that the guy from Faulty Towers).
I find keeping the left arm firm and left elbow elbow "facing the ball" (not the ground as Manuel says), and using the left arm as the take-away mover really gives me a strong position, started this last year then gave it away, re-visiting now because it locks in a good take-away i reckon, and when i first tried it i immediately hit the ball solid (but a bit left) when a minute before i could hardly make contact.
But since I am a "stopper n blocker" i am using the left arm to keep turning around, actually to me its more like the left arm goes straight across from the top of swing, dragging the club head behind and feeling like the face is very open at impact.
I guess its a left elbow circular plane kind of.
My left arm has never "got around" properly, it always goes out from the top and has to stop at impact.
This left arm directly across from the top really helps me to get a follow through.
I have been getting some nice impact positions doing this, and sometimes the right elbow is so "in there" without even trying.
Funny ain't it, coz the old left arm gets very little discussion anywhere, except for rotating it which I reckon is asking for troubles.
Anyhow you can rotate the forearm and the elbow stays looking at the ball.

[ej002]

He went from bent to straight right arm at address. Hook to fade... And stated talking about three right hands. I think he just changed his mind on that one.

[Dinosaur]

I know it is sacrilege, but to me, that man had many imperfections and flaws in his swing which he worked to perfection for HIM. Trying to emulate that swing to me is pointless. I am not dismissing his views on the fundamentals however, and his tips are probably most sound, it's the other idiosyncrasies that people attempt to mimic that I find questionable and often contradictory. I would much rather follow swings of players such as Jason Day but in the end, it has to be up to me.

[ej002]

Dino - you are suspended from the Hogan forum for one month for that comment... kidding.

So what do you see as "imperfections or flaws" in Hogan's swing? I can see the cupped wrist being a point of contention. His very weak grip, he said was a personal modification. Other than that, I don't see anything weird with his swing. He had a lot of lateral movement, but that is not a big deal and common of the time. He may have bowed the wrist on the way down, that may knock out the cup on the way back. But overall there is not a whole lot to pick at. I am curious what your thoughts are. This DJ Watts guy said the same thing.

[Dinosaur]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1391731717' post='8612391']
Dino - you are suspended from the Hogan forum for one month for that comment... kidding.

So what do you see as "imperfections or flaws" in Hogan's swing? I can see the cupped wrist being a point of contention. His very weak grip, he said was a personal modification. Other than that, I don't see anything weird with his swing. He had a lot of lateral movement, but that is not a big deal and common of the time. He may have bowed the wrist on the way down, that may knock out the cup on the way back. But overall there is not a whole lot to pick at. I am curious what your thoughts are. This DJ Watts guy said the same thing.
[/quote]

Everything you mentioned and a few "different" things, but I probably would be hard pressed to be able to describe them adequately. It appears to me that the way he "layed off" at the top was an extra movement in that once he got to the top on the back swing plane, he sort of put a turn movement in his wrists to put the club on a different plane on the way down. However, he would also attribute that to lower body movement which brings the club down to nearly waist level automatically. He also advocated flaring out the lead foot at address which I agree with, but he kept his trail foot square to the target line which in of itself is nothing wrong, but he more or less said, that those who did not were incorrect, something to the effect that many players by flaring out both feet, you could not tell which direction they were about to swing. I think my point was "why do people always evoke "Hogan" as if that alone lends credibility to their argument or view point? Maybe imperfections or flaws are the wrong words. Possibly "unconventional" would be more appropriate. But OTOH and one of my pet peeves is that "Conventional Wisdom is an oxymoron". The weak grip as you mentioned and as I have learned from this forum was to overcome a wicked hook indicating there were prior flaws. The same could be said of Nicklaus with the "flying elbow", Trevino with his round-house figure eight. "Aim left, swing right, walk straight". All of these things, but mostly peoples tendency to say "Well, Hogan did it, so it must be right" as if to end the argument. Just seems as though he had a lot of inconsistency in his explanations and the way he actually swung a club. I am sure there are those with the equipment to analyze this much better than I ever could and obviously with a lot more knowledge than I possess.

Hey...I have the book, have read it dozens of times, and go back to it and each time find something different.

[no where to look]

[quote name='Dinosaur' timestamp='1391737056' post='8612969']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1391731717' post='8612391']
Dino - you are suspended from the Hogan forum for one month for that comment... kidding.

So what do you see as "imperfections or flaws" in Hogan's swing? I can see the cupped wrist being a point of contention. His very weak grip, he said was a personal modification. Other than that, I don't see anything weird with his swing. He had a lot of lateral movement, but that is not a big deal and common of the time. He may have bowed the wrist on the way down, that may knock out the cup on the way back. But overall there is not a whole lot to pick at. I am curious what your thoughts are. This DJ Watts guy said the same thing.
[/quote]

Everything you mentioned and a few "different" things, but I probably would be hard pressed to be able to describe them adequately. It appears to me that the way he "layed off" at the top was an extra movement in that once he got to the top on the back swing plane, he sort of put a turn movement in his wrists to put the club on a different plane on the way down. However, he would also attribute that to lower body movement which brings the club down to nearly waist level automatically. He also advocated flaring out the lead foot at address which I agree with, but he kept his trail foot square to the target line which in of itself is nothing wrong, but he more or less said, that those who did not were incorrect, something to the effect that many players by flaring out both feet, you could not tell which direction they were about to swing. I think my point was "why do people always evoke "Hogan" as if that alone lends credibility to their argument or view point? Maybe imperfections or flaws are the wrong words. Possibly "unconventional" would be more appropriate. But OTOH and one of my pet peeves is that "Conventional Wisdom is an oxymoron". The weak grip as you mentioned and as I have learned from this forum was to overcome a wicked hook indicating there were prior flaws. The same could be said of Nicklaus with the "flying elbow", Trevino with his round-house figure eight. "Aim left, swing right, walk straight". All of these things, but mostly peoples tendency to say "Well, Hogan did it, so it must be right" as if to end the argument. Just seems as though he had a lot of inconsistency in his explanations and the way he actually swung a club. I am sure there are those with the equipment to analyze this much better than I ever could and obviously with a lot more knowledge than I possess.

Hey...I have the book, have read it dozens of times, and go back to it and each time find something different.
[/quote]

The lay off move, is what Ben Hogan described in 5L, getting into the Slot, where both arms and the clubshaft are in a common plane
(didn't say what is commonly called, shaft plane)

Flaring the left foot, restricts the BS turn....try it.

[gabh]

[quote name='Dinosaur' timestamp='1391737056' post='8612969']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1391731717' post='8612391']
Dino - you are suspended from the Hogan forum for one month for that comment... kidding.

So what do you see as "imperfections or flaws" in Hogan's swing? I can see the cupped wrist being a point of contention. His very weak grip, he said was a personal modification. Other than that, I don't see anything weird with his swing. He had a lot of lateral movement, but that is not a big deal and common of the time. He may have bowed the wrist on the way down, that may knock out the cup on the way back. But overall there is not a whole lot to pick at. I am curious what your thoughts are. This DJ Watts guy said the same thing.
[/quote]

Everything you mentioned and a few "different" things, but I probably would be hard pressed to be able to describe them adequately. It appears to me that the way he "layed off" at the top was an extra movement in that once he got to the top on the back swing plane, he sort of put a turn movement in his wrists to put the club on a different plane on the way down. However, he would also attribute that to lower body movement which brings the club down to nearly waist level automatically. He also advocated flaring out the lead foot at address which I agree with, but he kept his trail foot square to the target line which in of itself is nothing wrong, but he more or less said, that those who did not were incorrect, something to the effect that many players by flaring out both feet, you could not tell which direction they were about to swing. I think my point was "why do people always evoke "Hogan" as if that alone lends credibility to their argument or view point? Maybe imperfections or flaws are the wrong words. Possibly "unconventional" would be more appropriate. But OTOH and one of my pet peeves is that "Conventional Wisdom is an oxymoron". The weak grip as you mentioned and as I have learned from this forum was to overcome a wicked hook indicating there were prior flaws. The same could be said of Nicklaus with the "flying elbow", Trevino with his round-house figure eight. "Aim left, swing right, walk straight". All of these things, but mostly peoples tendency to say "Well, Hogan did it, so it must be right" as if to end the argument. Just seems as though he had a lot of inconsistency in his explanations and the way he actually swung a club. I am sure there are those with the equipment to analyze this much better than I ever could and obviously with a lot more knowledge than I possess.

Hey...I have the book, have read it dozens of times, and go back to it and each time find something different.
[/quote]

Based on your avatar, you won't really get what Hogan is saying.

The layoff is in order for him to get to the lower plane, which in turn enables him to get the hands lower, obviously, but more importantly nearer to him thru impact. If you do that, you're not gonna hit the ball because the dirt is on your way.

The right foot position is to limit his backswing turn. Remember he wants to go on a lower plane, so if he turns more in backswing, the farther he would get from that lower plane, which means the more difficult it is to get down to lower plane in downswing. If you do that, you'll end up with the results mentioned above.

So which do you think is better now? Not trying to be hostile here, just trying to explain and understand the options before we make judgments. I've studied both options btw.