Tour Tempo - A Short (long) Story

[tsmithers]

[quote name='McCleeryCrow' timestamp='1388780693' post='8392227'] Keep the updates coming. I just started with Tour Tempo and I'm encouraged by your progress. [/quote]

Thanks for your interest in my thread! Appreciate it. Hard to update the thread since I haven't played a round in months and with almost 2 feet of snow on the ground it might be a while until my next round. I have been going to the range and still using the tones. I feel like I'm staying much more consistent throughout the winter because of it but won't know for sure until I hit the course.

[northgolf]

tsmithers,

I emphasize with you on the snow, but we're in a good thaw. Heh, in three weeks we will get a day where we can go out mudding the ball around.

[The Pearl]

I have always been skeptical of the Tour Tempo theory. Skeptical, not in terms of what the folks have discovered, but rather if the results are simply coincidental data-mining and whether it can be applied to the average golfer. Do all professional golfers swing in the 3 to 1 ratio or do they swing in the 3 to 1 ratio because they are professional golfers? Big difference.

[trajectory]

In Golf My Way, Jack committed a few pages to tempo and said it was his belief that good mechanics establish tempo. But, he also spent time talking about how he tried to FEEL his downswing speed matched his back swing speed, even though in reality they didn't match. This, by the way, is a great swing thought if you need one on the golf course.

He also said some of his biggest drives always came when he felt like he was dialing down and hitting the ball "easy".

But, he also said if you think good tempo creates good mechanics he wouldn't argue with you!

[Lefty_3Jack]

Reviving this old one.

 

I bought some wireless ear buds and am going to commit to practicing and my rounds alone during the week to using the Tour Tempo app to see how it affects my swing. Did some trackman work at home and found on a day where everything that felt uncomfortable and rushed I was getting the face 5*+ closed off to the path and hitting terrible hooks. I started up the tour tempo app, got a feel for the 21/7 and face started being 1*-2* open or closed to the path which made for much more playable shots.

 

My good shots are pretty good, I'm working on trying to make my bad shots not as bad. Those 5* closed face shots are pretty unplayable. I always thought that when my tempo felt good I hit better shots, even when my mechanics were worse, but if I felt nervous, rushed or my hands were wet that tempo went to s*** and I'd rush to shut down the face to keep from shanking it. Some I'd shank, some I'd hit bad hooks. Rarely have any been good shots when I get quick. I think Monte even mentioned that playing in the US Senior Open made him get quick in transition.

[games]

First, good luck to Lefty Light Hitter!

I saw my 6-year old contribution to this thread and felt an updated perspective was in order.

 

In my opinion, most amateurs gain distance and improve with Tour Tempo just purely by speeding up the swing. If your total swing time from takeaway to impact goes from 1.2 seconds to 1.0 second, it not only means you are swinging faster. It also means swinging that fast requires you to conform to the physics that permit the faster swing to happen. In that lens, Tour Tempo can be the RESULT of just swinging faster.

[Lefty_3Jack]

I've been guilty of a back swing that is too slow and builds up tension for a hard transition and I know focusing on tempo helps. It's not the be all, end all, but it's something that needs to be worked on. Seeing face numbers changes so drastically on TM when I felt out of sync or rushed was good confirmation that my tempo/rhythm has a large effect. The funny thing is that path really doesn't change much at all no matter how "off" or rushed I feel. I was within 3* on every swing and most all were within 1*-2* on the path, but face was out of whack.

[q-school]

Tour tempo John is a great guy and very knowledgeable.

By the way the frame counter app is like $2 so you can record your own swing and see if your tempo is getting off without waiting for the analysis.

[games]

That darn clubface! Possible stronger grip in order? The MDLT thread’s latest discussion is about a swing aid to help groove a smoother swing. That’s great, but most find that smooth practice swing, when applied to a real golf club, doesn’t square the face at impact.

 

It comes back to squaring the face with any or all of: stronger grip, ball placement, more upper body rotation, and/or hand manipulation (eg motorcycle move).

[buckeyefl]

I have used a metronome for 20 years but tried TT last year very briefly. Things were going well this year so I revisited it this year to better results. I sometimes get too fast in my backswing and just like my metronome it helps with that.

[tm3]

Tour Tempo is backed by some interesting research, and a lot of golfers have found it helpful. The Orange Whip is a very popular training aid.

What is being taught seems diametrically opposed, ie TT teaches a fast (controlled) swing and the OW teaches a slow (smooth) swing.

Am I missing something?

[dhc1]

I think the Tour tempo less teaches a faster swing than one that has a defined tempo and ratio between backswing and forward swing.

[firstbatch]

OW is a tool to train a feel for sequencing lower body and upper body. As with most drill based training tools the OW exaggerates the correct feel for sequencing.

[The Pearl]

> @games said:

> First, good luck to Lefty Light Hitter!

> I saw my 6-year old contribution to this thread and felt an updated perspective was in order.

>

> In my opinion, most amateurs gain distance and improve with Tour Tempo just purely by speeding up the swing. If your total swing time from takeaway to impact goes from 1.2 seconds to 1.0 second, it not only means you are swinging faster. It also means swinging that fast requires you to conform to the physics that permit the faster swing to happen. In that lens, Tour Tempo can be the RESULT of just swinging faster.

 

I tend to agree with this. I don't doubt TT's data as I am more skeptical of non intentional data mining. To me it is like saying in order to be a great jump shooter you must jump 30 inches in the air at your release point. The 3:1 tempo can be a common trait among pro golfers but swinging at 3:1 won't make you a pro or may not improve you one bit.

 

There is little doubt that most amateurs have backswings that are too slow resulting on a violent transition, hence poor shots and ugly looking tempo. In the same vain, "swing easy" and "swing at 75%" have crept into much of golf instruction. What you see here is swings deaccelerating or having very little speed.

 

When you speed up, most people's motions become more athletic and natural rather than contrived. With that said if TT can get them to speed up than it has usefulness.

 

I am actually more interested in and find more useful the time between takeaway and impact....I think may pros are at or below 1 sec. I think this is more useful for the average golfer.

[musclefront]

> @"The Pearl" said:

> I have always been skeptical of the Tour Tempo theory. Skeptical, not in terms of what the folks have discovered, but rather if the results are simply coincidental data-mining and whether it can be applied to the average golfer. Do all professional golfers swing in the 3 to 1 ratio or do they swing in the 3 to 1 ratio because they are professional golfers? Big difference.

 

Only thing that matters is that they all do it

[tanker44]

Never heard of it but I believe it. I'd imagine the three count would consist of weight shift to right side, wrist cock moving to full shoulder turn. Then the unloading of the swing. But then i'd say that new Wolff fella is 2:1 given he only has weight shift to vertical set at top with essentially no transitions in the plane of his backswing.

[stryper]

> @musclefront said:

> > @"The Pearl" said:

> > I have always been skeptical of the Tour Tempo theory. Skeptical, not in terms of what the folks have discovered, but rather if the results are simply coincidental data-mining and whether it can be applied to the average golfer. Do all professional golfers swing in the 3 to 1 ratio or do they swing in the 3 to 1 ratio because they are professional golfers? Big difference.

>

> Only thing that matters is that they all do it

 

I agree...I’d much rather take my chances with TT than the “low-and-slow” approach that so many recreational golfers want to buy into. And while I don’t believe TT is the Rosetta Stone of Golf, I do think there’s something that can be learned from the best in the world, especially when it’s so consistent across the board.

 

[The Pearl]

The problem with "they all do it" is that it may not necessary extrapolate to the regular Joe. They may "all do it" because they are the elite of the elite. The question becomes is the 3:1 tempo an elite result only attainable by elite players or can the average golfer replicate the action. I think it is reasonable to assume that the later hypothesis has some merit. Of course elite professionals at all levels and all endeavors have certain common characteristics. That is what makes them elite.

 

Simply to say that all pros do A so than you should do A doesn't really pass any serious muster in terms of rigorous methodology.

[glk]

https://www.tourtempo.com/

Yes you can do it. Not all that difficult just need to train to the tones, etc.

Tour tempo is all about the interval from takeaway to impact. The ratios of 18/6, 21/7, 24/8, 27/9 equate to .8, .925, 1.06, and 1.19 secs. Just so happens that good swings have a ratio of 3:1 backswing to downswing (ending at impact). Novosel has measured pros when they are playing well, under pressure, playing poorly and has found they tend to speed up or lose the 3:1 when playing poorly or under pressure.

When hideki beat Rickie at Phoenix a few years back he was playing at his typical 30/12 then in the playoff he actually sped up to 24/8 - unusual that he played well enough at that faster tempo but he did.

 

 

 

[stryper]

> @"The Pearl" said:

> The problem with "they all do it" is that it may not necessary extrapolate to the regular Joe. They may "all do it" because they are the elite of the elite. **The question becomes is the 3:1 tempo an elite result only attainable by elite players or can the average golfer replicate the action**. I think it is reasonable to assume that the later hypothesis has some merit. Of course elite professionals at all levels and all endeavors have certain common characteristics. That is what makes them elite.

>

> Simply to say that all pros do A so than you should do A doesn't really pass any serious muster in terms of rigorous methodology.

 

I think it’s fairly obvious that the answer is no, then yes. No, the ideal 3:1 ratio is not only attainable by the elite. It’s not like a 105mph fastball in baseball that requires a certain genetic makeup. And yes, I do think the average golfer can replicate at least a close approximation to that ratio.

 

In my mind, if it is a swing characteristic of all great golfers, then certainly it is a characteristic worth emulating.

 

[games]

I don't think attaining the tempo itself is a problem for anyone. The issue is attaining it at the speed where it truly becomes relevant. Example: 36:12 (frame ratios) should be pretty much attainable by anyone, as 12 frames on the downswing likely equates to pure gravity. But even the Novosels acknowledge "core" TT starts at 27/9 with 30/10 being borderline.

 

One anomaly swing I'd like measured by TT is Rahm. I suspect he would be closer to a 2:1 than 3:1 due to length of his backswing. But, again, his total time from takeaway to impact is going to be well below one second.

[The Pearl]

> @stryper said:

> > @"The Pearl" said:

> > The problem with "they all do it" is that it may not necessary extrapolate to the regular Joe. They may "all do it" because they are the elite of the elite. **The question becomes is the 3:1 tempo an elite result only attainable by elite players or can the average golfer replicate the action**. I think it is reasonable to assume that the later hypothesis has some merit. Of course elite professionals at all levels and all endeavors have certain common characteristics. That is what makes them elite.

> >

> > Simply to say that all pros do A so than you should do A doesn't really pass any serious muster in terms of rigorous methodology.

>

> I think it’s fairly obvious that the answer is no, then yes. No, the ideal 3:1 ratio is not only attainable by the elite. It’s not like a 105mph fastball in baseball that requires a certain genetic makeup. And yes, I do think the average golfer can replicate at least a close approximation to that ratio.

>

> In my mind, if it is a swing characteristic of all great golfers, then certainly it is a characteristic worth emulating.

>

 

Perhaps true, but it is notable that most who try TT eventually abandon it. I can make a 3 pointer once in a while, but that doesn't make me Steph Curry. Hence the difference between getting somebody to speed up vs. hitting the perfect 3 to 1 ratio. Speeding up is probably attainable long term. Hitting the 3 to 1 ratio for all time and eternity, probably not so much for most weekend players.

[The Pearl]

To be clear, I generally agree with TT in terms of speeding things up provides a better swing, more power, and better results.

[stryper]

> @games said:

> I don't think attaining the tempo itself is a problem for anyone. The issue is attaining it at the speed where it truly becomes relevant. Example: 36:12 (frame ratios) should be pretty much attainable by anyone, as 12 frames on the downswing likely equates to pure gravity. But even the Novosels acknowledge "core" TT starts at 27/9 with 30/10 being borderline.

>

> One anomaly swing I'd like measured by TT is Rahm. I suspect he would be closer to a 2:1 than 3:1 due to length of his backswing. But, again, his total time from takeaway to impact is going to be well below one second.

 

Jon Rahm, Tony Finau, and Matt Kuchar all have short backswings, but I’d be surprised it their ratios aren’t all right at 3:1. A short, quick backswing only means the downswing has to be that much faster to “catch up.” And those guys do hit the ball a long way, as you would expect with faster bat speed.

 

Of course, that’s not to say they time it consciously.

[glk]

Gosh, anyone want to open up the 2:1 ratio on the short game/putting. LOL.

These guys aren't robots - variability exists in everything in golf. DJ is noted to be 2.6:1 - he's 21/8 - but hey. If you read through the blog on Tour Tempo site you can find articles on measures of tour pro and other useful information.

[stryper]

> @"The Pearl" said:

> > @stryper said:

> > > @"The Pearl" said:

> > > The problem with "they all do it" is that it may not necessary extrapolate to the regular Joe. They may "all do it" because they are the elite of the elite. **The question becomes is the 3:1 tempo an elite result only attainable by elite players or can the average golfer replicate the action**. I think it is reasonable to assume that the later hypothesis has some merit. Of course elite professionals at all levels and all endeavors have certain common characteristics. That is what makes them elite.

> > >

> > > Simply to say that all pros do A so than you should do A doesn't really pass any serious muster in terms of rigorous methodology.

> >

> > I think it’s fairly obvious that the answer is no, then yes. No, the ideal 3:1 ratio is not only attainable by the elite. It’s not like a 105mph fastball in baseball that requires a certain genetic makeup. And yes, I do think the average golfer can replicate at least a close approximation to that ratio.

> >

> > In my mind, if it is a swing characteristic of all great golfers, then certainly it is a characteristic worth emulating.

> >

>

> Perhaps true, but it is notable that most who try TT eventually abandon it. I can make a 3 pointer once in a while, but that doesn't make me Steph Curry. Hence the difference between getting somebody to speed up vs. hitting the perfect 3 to 1 ratio. Speeding up is probably attainable long term. Hitting the 3 to 1 ratio for all time and eternity, probably not so much for most weekend players.

 

When it comes to golf, most weekenders eventually abandon everything, chasing tip after tip, in search of the magic move. That’s how golf magazines stay in business. Personally, I don’t practice with the TT tones regularly, but I haven’t abandoned it either. While a lot of people think TT is too fast, ironically I find that 21:7 helps slow me down when my transition sometimes gets too quick.

[bdcava]

I’m working with this again after having studied it when it originally was released. I had my low round of the year today with no other swing thoughts other than the tones. It’s also helping me with chipping and putting, of which I’ve been struggling with. I’ve been an amateur musician for 40 years so it’s something that I can easily grasp.

[Lefty_3Jack]

> @q-school said:

> Tour tempo John is a great guy and very knowledgeable.

> By the way the frame counter app is like $2 so you can record your own swing and see if your tempo is getting off without waiting for the analysis.

 

Thanks I didn't know that. It's near impossible to know if your impact is close to where the third tone is. I've been trying to only focus on the first two and just swing thru. The constant tone of the music makes me feel like I'm playing with techno music in the background and drives me nuts.

[Lefty_3Jack]

> @tm3 said:

> Tour Tempo is backed by some interesting research, and a lot of golfers have found it helpful. The Orange Whip is a very popular training aid.

> What is being taught seems diametrically opposed, ie TT teaches a fast (controlled) swing and the OW teaches a slow (smooth) swing.

> Am I missing something?

 

Yea no chance you can swing an orange whip at the same pace as those tones. Maybe the slowest tone, but definitely not the 18/6 or 24/7 (I think those ratios are right). I keep an orange whip in my bag and use it to warm up. I wish I could replicate that feel it better. The weight really allows you to make sure it's set at the top and to bring it thru as a unit.

[Lefty_3Jack]

One thing the Orange Whip has a good feel for is transferring the energy built up in the backswing on the way down. If you take the feel of the putter shaft feeling like a rope or very whippy you see that increase in distance control in putting. You roll it further with a shorter stroke and your distance control is better. That's what i'm looking for with my full swing. I've done it feeling like I swing "slower", but I think I was not swinging slower, I was swinging more efficiently. I wasn't wasting all that energy that I built up in the backswing with a violent transition.