Hogan's transition - Was it over the top and is that what why Tiger is making those practice swings?

[tylerdurden]

We've all seen Tiger try to come over the top in his swing. Less of us may have seen Wayne D talking a lot about how many great players come over the top in the transition.

 

My question - was Hogan coming over the top in his transition? Was it pivot driven (see below)? Obviously he wasn't way over the top, but to me it is still noticable.

 

In the attached video below (Hogan practicing in 1953), skip to 2:38 and watch Hogan hit a short iron or wedge from DTL. I can definitely see him coming over the top here, even without drawing lines.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk

 

The more I look at Hogans swing, the more I think this is the glue that holds it together. Maybe I am crazy, but if he didn't have that slight over the top move in the transition, I think he would get stuck and hit a hook. Am I nuts and just seeing things? I'd love HG101, Fats, TeeAce, Mizuno, TheHoganSwingProject/Ant and all you other opinonated and knowledgable dudes to comment on this.

 

I really think it's an important move and I think it's one of the reasons my ball striking has been inconsistent (my hands free fall in transition and I can't wait to go to the range tonight and mess with this - mirror work at 2AM last night felt REALLY good).

 

Sorry this is getting long. Here is Wayne D's video on the issue:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsJ6byKQyhE&feature=plcp

 

Another thing I want to be clear on: I think this slight over the top move should be and is fully pivot driven in Hogan's swing. Shoulders basically opening quickly in transition WHILE left shoulder stays LOW. VS. my bush-league transition where left shoulder elevates quickly and hands free fall :russian_roulette: .

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

You raise some good questions about the OTT issue. I finally got to the range and hit balls and after video analysis, I see this as a major issue of mine.....I think. Or maybe the OTT is just a product of my not finishing the backswing, or my crazy looking alignment, or my reaching for the ball at address, etc.

I think it would be best to first define what you call OTT so everyone is speaking the same language. I have never seen Hogan go OTT, but I probably have a different definition. I define OTT when the clubhead and hands get on top of the address/shaft plane line. I call it an acceptable swing when CH and hands are on or below plane line. And as I type this, my explanation probably needs a few images to bring the point home.

Edit: I define OTT as:
1. If hands get above right shoulder.
and/or
2. If CH gets above hands.

And this definition might change again when I get home and really look at it Hogan on video.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1335800317' post='4815168']
We've all seen Tiger try to come over the top in his swing. Less of us may have seen Wayne D talking a lot about how many great players come over the top in the transition.

My question - was Hogan coming over the top in his transition? Was it pivot driven (see below)? Obviously he wasn't way over the top, but to me it is still noticable.

In the attached video below (Hogan practicing in 1953), skip to 2:38 and watch Hogan hit a short iron or wedge from DTL. I can definitely see him coming over the top here, even without drawing lines.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk[/media]

The more I look at Hogans swing, the more I think this is the glue that holds it together. Maybe I am crazy, but if he didn't have that slight over the top move in the transition, I think he would get stuck and hit a hook. Am I nuts and just seeing things? I'd love HG101, Fats, TeeAce, Mizuno, TheHoganSwingProject/Ant and all you other opinonated and knowledgable dudes to comment on this.

I really think it's an important move and I think it's one of the reasons my ball striking has been inconsistent (my hands free fall in transition and I can't wait to go to the range tonight and mess with this - mirror work at 2AM last night felt REALLY good).

Sorry this is getting long. Here is Wayne D's video on the issue:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsJ6byKQyhE&feature=plcp[/media]

Another thing I want to be clear on: I think this slight over the top move should be and is fully pivot driven in Hogan's swing. Shoulders basically opening quickly in transition WHILE left shoulder stays LOW. VS. my bush-league transition where left shoulder elevates quickly and hands free fall .
[/quote]


To me that just means his BS was perfect...no need to pull down the hands to get it on the plane of his release. With this, he can really turn hard earlier than most...more power because he started the accelerator earlier...

In short, those that are more "OTT" with their hands (not clubhead, and didn't lose the L wristc0ck) in transition had their hands on top directly on or not far over and above their release planes. Also, note that swings where there is this "OTT" are mostly 3/4 swings, so the hands didn't really go up fully because they didn't reach the top; since they didn't go that far and over the release planes, they can just fire and rotate and release. The Hogan swing you pointed out is not a full swing.

[tylerdurden]

Good point on needing to clarify the definition of OTT.

When I say OTT I mean that from DTL view, the plane of the club during the transition is above the plane on the backswing.

In other words, from a DTL view, if you draw a few red dots on the end of Hogan's grip during the backswing (where his hands start to reach the top), and draw a few blue dots on the end of Hogan's grip during his transition and early into his downswing, the blue dots will be slightly more to the right than the red dots. That is exactly what I mean by OTT. It just varies my degree.

But I believe you can see this in almost every swing that hogan made from DTL, both pre and post accident, assuming you have a good camera angle. I would put up some pictures but I can't because I'm at work.

Obviously the opposite of this move could be called Under The Top "UTT". And Tiger while with Hank was the definition of UTT. If you do the same exercise described above for Tiger (especially with his driver in 2009), you will always see the blue does being slightly moer to the left than the red dots. And I think that is death move (not based on emperical evidence but based on feelings and results I've had with my own swing).

Here are some swing's of mine that I consider some of the best swings I've ever made and I think I am OTT in these, although I wasn't trying to do this at the time. But I think the lack off this OTT move with my driver is the reason for my inconsistent driving of the ball.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfvSVVtgz9Y&list=UUbAQrm62MeRt4pCeJq5twdA&index=12&feature=plcp[/media]

My theory - and I'm not claiming it to be original - is that the driver almost encourages you to come UTT beacuse the ball is teed up. And the ball being teed up, significantly more than any other club in the bag (something I'll likely change going forward), encourages elevation in the left shoulder early and a UTT move, because it moves the bottom of the arch away from the target which means you hit the ball on the upswing. I guess this is my theory gor me, not for golfers in general. It's just a habit I need to kill because I am beginning to see how it causes a bunch of issues.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1335803930' post='4815568']
To me that just means his BS was perfect...no need to pull down the hands to get it on the plane of his release. With this, he can really turn hard earlier than most...more power because he started the accelerator earlier...

In short, those that are more "OTT" with their hands (not clubhead, and didn't lose the L wristc0ck) in transition had their hands on top directly on or not far over and above their release planes. Also, note that swings where there is this "OTT" are mostly 3/4 swings, so the hands didn't really go up fully because they didn't reach the top; since they didn't go that far and over the release planes, they can just fire and rotate and release. The Hogan swing you pointed out is not a full swing.
[/quote]


HG101 is my definition of OTT (my last post) consistent with yours?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

My definition of OTT:

0:13 to 0:24
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31fKl1Y0sw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31fKl1Y0sw&feature=related
[/url]
0:14 to 0:20
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI_DX_3tTyk&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI_DX_3tTyk&feature=related[/url]

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1335806743' post='4815858']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1335803930' post='4815568']
To me that just means his BS was perfect...no need to pull down the hands to get it on the plane of his release. With this, he can really turn hard earlier than most...more power because he started the accelerator earlier...

In short, those that are more "OTT" with their hands (not clubhead, and didn't lose the L wristc0ck) in transition had their hands on top directly on or not far over and above their release planes. Also, note that swings where there is this "OTT" are mostly 3/4 swings, so the hands didn't really go up fully because they didn't reach the top; since they didn't go that far and over the release planes, they can just fire and rotate and release. The Hogan swing you pointed out is not a full swing.
[/quote]


HG101 is my definition of OTT (my last post) consistent with yours?
[/quote]

I'm responding based on what I though what your definition of "OTT" is, which I though is based on what Wayne D is explaining in his video you posted---direction of the hands in transition in relation to the target line.

In case of your definition---the hands' path in transition are over the hands' path during the BS, yes Hogan is almost always over his BS hand path when he transitions.

To me, that just means he really had an inside path in his BS, and he really pivoted deep in the BS. Then he really just fired it up in transition. That is why it was always "OTT". He wanted to release as early as possible for power/distance.

But note that he didn't lose the L wristc0ck and that the clubHEAD was not "OTT".

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1335832960' post='4819728']
My definition of OTT:

0:13 to 0:24
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31fKl1Y0sw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31fKl1Y0sw&feature=related
[/url]
0:14 to 0:20
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI_DX_3tTyk&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.c...feature=related[/url]




[/quote]


Lol I think this is the most accurate definition of OTT in a classical sense that I've seen.

We should introduce a new term, DOTT, short for desirable over the top. That's what I want.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Tyler,

Is this what you are referring to as OTT? The hand path?

at the 1:47 to 1:53 mark.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy_xx-cXKyA[/media]

[Yozz76]

All very confusing and should probably take more time to understand what is being put across but surely ott is simply the club head approaching the ball from the outside?

[Pinsplitter59]

its a real buzz concept recently , well not that recently really.
as in "swing left" etc.
i think generally OTT has always meant that in the dowswing the arms and clubhead go well outside their backswing path and the shoulders have not really turned back.
this Foley thing seems to trace back to the Tom Watson video of 1994 when he said he finally understood the golf swing and said it was a revelation to him that the shoulder turn was
the same plane back and through, he showed how he "felt" like it was really going OTT. His revelation came from watching Corey Pavin's practice swing,
exactly what Tiger is trying to do now (obviously it ain't gonna work for him).
we have to remember the Nicklaus/Watson swing style of those days was a much more straight line swing with lots of slide in the legs and hips,
so for Watson to change to a more "normal" rotational motion would feel dramatically different.

the proof of any swing is simply where the arms/hands/club is coming into impact.
Hogan was just a tiny bit above his backswing position like McIlroy and A. Quiros also.
McIlroy seems to turn his right shoulder over/around very hard but, after he has first "come down".

Snead swung enormously OTT of his backswing path, but it was still on a very good impact path into the ball, Ray Floyd as well but he was very steep.
I would say that this Foley guy and Tiger have misunderstood what its all about (from the safety of anonymous ignorance).

my local pro is into this swing left thing, he is also a bit Stack n Tilty and other techy stuff (pretty good ball striker though)
at my last ( and i do mean last) lesson with him all he wanted me to do was "rip it left" from the top.
this was impossible and utterly unsuccessful for me.
all it did was put my arms and club so far outside it was silly.
from MY top of swing position it was not possible to achieve what he wanted.
that's what i call really bad instruction.

i did quite a bit of practice a while ago with an "OTT" right shoulder move on the downswing,
i think its just a way of trying to get a proper rotation back and through on the same plane really,
so your right shoulder doesn't stay back and under causing the need for hands/arms release.
its a "dangerous" move because the arms can easily go out wide very readily,
you have to concentrate on keeping the arms and club "under" your shoulder.
sorry i think i am talking to myself.... where was i???

[tembolo1284]

This is a great thread. I agree that hogan was over the top with this hand path...but the clubhead certainly didn't tip out and cut across the ball.