Hogan's Swing Controls

[no where to look]

BrianB, My observations:

1. I don't like the hammer analogy, since almost noone swings a hammer sidearm or underhanded. The right arm move here is more a sidearm throw toward the target, with the elbow leading. There is no downward pull there.

2. I disagree with the notion that there is centrifugal force pulling the arms to a higher plane. There isn't any, because the swing is not occuring on that axis. The body may turn like a merry-go-round, but the swing doesn't occur around the same axis. From the start, it is more like a ferris wheel. Try swinging with just your left arm; you'll find it is much more comfortable and produces more speed swinging down at the ground rather than perpendicular to the torso. The left arm is leading this swing, that's what pulls the path down to the ball.

3. What many people miss is how Hogan's hips clear the path for the right arm. There is no pull of the hips towards the back foot in the backswing, in fact the right hip moves slightly more towards the target. Then there is an agressive move towards the target (and back to the left heel) with the left hip to start the downswing. The left shoulder is pulling up with the left hip at this point, but this is pulling the left arm down towards the ball. The left shoulder rotates from just over the right toe to back over the left heel. This natural ferris wheel swing rotation is what pulls the right side down and through.

4. Moe Norman's drop and tug move is required for him because he doesn't move his hips like Hogan. With Hogan this is driven more from the hips and the left side. Moe's move may be easier to duplicate, but should also produce less power.

5. A couple of videos from Wayne DeFrancesco. The first is Bobby Jones, but a similar move down towards the ball, with room created by an agressive shift forward by the hips.

[url="http://youtu.be/j1_ZljBCcBA?t=11m4"][color="#0f72da"]http://youtu.be/j1_ZljBCcBA?t=11m4[/color][/url]
[url="http://youtu.be/GnCp4f458x8?t=10m"][color="#0f72da"]http://youtu.be/GnCp4f458x8?t=10m[/color][/url]





silky,

If you lay off as Ben Hogan showed Schlee,
position yourself ahead of the back of the ball, as BrianB described in his observations

then let the trail elbow that has dropped down and in front of the trail hip
be the axis of rotation through impact.

you will
Get the three levers working in the same plane. (club, bent right arm and left arm/scapula)
:

[Silky]

No where,

I still cannot grasp what you are proposing. A picture will be helpful.

[no where to look]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1406725563' post='9815983']
No where,

I still cannot grasp what you are proposing. A picture will be helpful.
[/quote]

sorry don't do pictures, silky..

[no where to look]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1406728181' post='9816271']
[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1406725563' post='9815983']
No where,

I still cannot grasp what you are proposing. A picture will be helpful.
[/quote]

sorry don't do pictures, silky..
[/quote]
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1406728181' post='9816271']
[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1406725563' post='9815983']
No where,

I still cannot grasp what you are proposing. A picture will be helpful.
[/quote]

sorry don't do pictures, silky..
[/quote]

found one:

1:14 and 1:36
torso and head both ahead of the back of the ball, and three levers pulling in a common plane.

clear as mud?
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wpyAXvIDYw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=4wpyAXvIDYw[/url]

[Silky]

No where,

Horizontal tug, vertical drop. Can we prove that Hogan was doing that?
Yes, with a little bit of imagination, let's try to isolate the horizontal tug from the vertical drop.

Please look at the picture below of the sequence of Hogan down swing from "laid off configuration" at the top, concentrating on the movement of the left shoulder. Now imagine Hogan not doing anything through his right hand, or even freeing the right hand from the grip. With the left shoulder moving in the horizontal direction as shown without any additional action from the right side, how do you think would the orbits of the left hand and the club be like? Of course, the hands would try to follow the shoulder and the club head would try to follow the hands in the same plane as that of the laid off configuration.

[b]Can you now visualize the result of horizontal tug without vertical drop?[/b] It is easy to actually try it out.

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:2345479]

Now, I come to dislike the word "drop" as in "vertical drop" as Moe had coined, sorry Moe. This is because it conveys a passive right side or the notion of having the hands and club fall passively by gravity. Actually, there is acceleration hands vertically like when you do downward hammering, or throwing. Perhaps, a better phrase would be "[b]horizontal tug, vertical throw[/b]".

I still cannot implement the vertical throw effectively yet beyond my hacker's hammering. I am still musing over "lateral right bending" as 8iron suggested about how I can do that without disrupting the left side action.

Notice that Hogan did not use the reverse-K setup but he did achieve the reverse-K look mid-swing. Perhaps a dynamic reverse-K may be the solution of the vertical throw for it sure adds a downward acceleration of the right side.

[Silky]

Confession of a long driving champion.

 

Wouldn't tell him to slow down the hips. Need to get him to move the arms and shoulders faster. Your though of keeping right hip deep, which I agree with, slows down and delays how early the hips fire. Point is you can fire the hips way too early/quickly. I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't turn fast. It's that most people need to feel they delay them from turning in transition so they can turn faster latter and arms don't get left behind. Btw my hips average 615 degrees/sec not too far from Rory's and my arms don't get way behind me. Has nothing to do with not having fast hips. MOST people move them too fast too soon. It's about delaying them

 

 

For another guy that many talk about how fast he turned his hips, look how late they are still closed coming down. They turned fast late but were delayed coming down. Arms have worked down and away from his right shoulder quite fast and you don't see a huge separation between upper and lower body.

 

Well said Dan.

 

This is something so many people, including many teaching pros, don't understand. It's not about slowing the hips (no one wants that) it's about delaying when they fire.

 

For some it's more lateral hip motion, for others it's keeping the tailbone facing the target longer, or belt buckle behind the ball....for many, it's start the arms sooner or faster.

 

This is nothing but a debate over what one has to feel to sequence properly...and what is actually happening.

 

Does it look like I am trying to dump the right wrist angle from the top here?

 

That was the only thought I had here.

 

Well "horizontal tug , vertical dump" may be better.

The harder you turn, the stronger you must dump.

[no where to look]

Confession of a long driving champion.

 

Wouldn't tell him to slow down the hips. Need to get him to move the arms and shoulders faster. Your though of keeping right hip deep, which I agree with, slows down and delays how early the hips fire. Point is you can fire the hips way too early/quickly. I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't turn fast. It's that most people need to feel they delay them from turning in transition so they can turn faster latter and arms don't get left behind. Btw my hips average 615 degrees/sec not too far from Rory's and my arms don't get way behind me. Has nothing to do with not having fast hips. MOST people move them too fast too soon. It's about delaying them

 

 

For another guy that many talk about how fast he turned his hips, look how late they are still closed coming down. They turned fast late but were delayed coming down. Arms have worked down and away from his right shoulder quite fast and you don't see a huge separation between upper and lower body.

 

Well said Dan.

 

This is something so many people, including many teaching pros, don't understand. It's not about slowing the hips (no one wants that) it's about delaying when they fire.

 

For some it's more lateral hip motion, for others it's keeping the tailbone facing the target longer, or belt buckle behind the ball....for many, it's start the arms sooner or faster.

 

This is nothing but a debate over what one has to feel to sequence properly...and what is actually happening.

 

Does it look like I am trying to dump the right wrist angle from the top here?

 

That was the only thought I had here.

 

Well may be "horizontal tug , vertical dump" may be better.

The harder you turn, the stronger you must dump.

 

 

silky,

the entire DS takes less than 1/4 second.

 

From position Ben Hogan is in

the pic shown, is less than 1/10 second from impact

 

No one consciously controls speed of hips at that point.

 

'tug' , 'dump'.. whatever. Better decide before the DS begins, because its over before you know it.

 

.

 

Maybe these pros can consciously control the speed of hips.

[tembolo1284]

hot doggie those are some great posts from dan and monte.

[Silky]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1406903886' post='9832159']
silky,
the entire DS takes less than 1/4 second.

From position Ben Hogan is in
the pic shown, is less than 1/10 second from impact

No one consciously controls speed of hips at that point.

'tug' , 'dump'.. whatever. Better decide before the DS begins, because its over before you know it.

.

Maybe these pros can consciously control the speed of hips.
[/quote]

Yah, no where,

Left side: Hey, righty you dump to hard, we hit the wrong ball first.
Right side: No, you didn't turn your hip, your swing sucked, no power.

[no where to look]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1406909780' post='9832989']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1406903886' post='9832159']
silky,
the entire DS takes less than 1/4 second.

From position Ben Hogan is in
the pic shown, is less than 1/10 second from impact

No one consciously controls speed of hips at that point.

'tug' , 'dump'.. whatever. Better decide before the DS begins, because its over before you know it.

.

Maybe these pros can consciously control the speed of hips.
[/quote]

Yah, no where,

Left side: Hey, righty you dump to hard, we hit the wrong ball first.
Right side: No, you didn't turn your hip, your swing sucked, no power.
[/quote]


exactly,
the only way to avoid those conflicts is to
pull the three levers on one common plane