Is scratch possible for everybody?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Tcombs0914' timestamp='1406071143' post='9761931']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406069266' post='9761657']
[quote name='Tcombs0914' timestamp='1406066586' post='9761361']
Thats the number that is skewed your taking in account everyone who plays not just those that practice or those in the age of 25-55. you cant take my student who is 25 and is a 10 who wants and I feel will be a scratch and have a 45 year old beginner who will play 4 times this year in the same %
[/quote]

No, it's not skewing my understanding. And I really don't care if you believe the 10's capable, but including that 45 year old has no bearing on this discussion. As far as I am concerned, until that 25yr old accomplishes the stated goal, he's no better than anyone else in the 10 handicap grouping. I have many employees in N.A. A few graduates [b][u]show great potential[/u][/b] for the future, but that's all. Even though my mgt committee has acknowledge their potential and watches closely, we can't in all good consciousness, grant them success before they actually do the work and demonstrate the judgment that is necessary for becoming a VP down the road; or in this case a scratch golfer. In other words, anyone that misleads someone into believing he's above and beyond his peers, not only does harm to the individual, but suggests the future is guaranteed, and that is wrong as I see it.
[/quote]

Numbers can be manipulated thats the fun part about stats.

Including the 45 is where your getting the % I just saying if we took a smaller slice excluding those who do not have the time or desire the .55 or whatever would be much much larger.

Now I am just arguing to argue You have many valid point in a earlier post i offered up a solution to end this discussion but it proabably wont happen

On a more positive note if your ever in the Dallas area let me know I would love to play and shoot the SHHHHH
[/quote]

There's nothing more to say, I am done.

[poizster]

It's been said in this thread before but it would be interesting to know of the golfers who are scratch, what % of them got to that level within 2-3 years of playing the game, excluding children who haven't fully developed. I was a really good baseball player growing up and in high school. Picked up golf at 16, put in tons of work and was scratch by the time I graduated high school. I think you would find that to be a fairly common scenario. Athleticism and hand eye coordination do account for something.

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

[quote name='poizster' timestamp='1406073630' post='9762289']
It's been said in this thread before but it would be interesting to know of the golfers who are scratch, what % of them got to that level within 2-3 years of playing the game, excluding children who haven't fully developed. I was a really good baseball player growing up and in high school. Picked up golf at 16, put in tons of work and was scratch by the time I graduated high school. I think you would find that to be a fairly common scenario. Athleticism and hand eye coordination do account for something.
[/quote]

> 250 back then?

[poizster]

[quote name='KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE' timestamp='1406074572' post='9762435']
[quote name='poizster' timestamp='1406073630' post='9762289']
It's been said in this thread before but it would be interesting to know of the golfers who are scratch, what % of them got to that level within 2-3 years of playing the game, excluding children who haven't fully developed. I was a really good baseball player growing up and in high school. Picked up golf at 16, put in tons of work and was scratch by the time I graduated high school. I think you would find that to be a fairly common scenario. Athleticism and hand eye coordination do account for something.
[/quote]

> 250 back then?
[/quote]

I was a big kid, and fully grown by 6th grade. I was greater than 250 but not by much. I'm still one of the shorter hitting + caps I know.

[Guardian5]

I was scratch within 4 years of picking up a club (hardly played my first year as I was playing a lot of other sports and studying). Of all the scratch and professional golfers that I have encountered and that is hundreds most were a playing scratch (not the USGA defined scratch but playing in tournaments and scoring par or better) within the same time frame as I, or for those that started at a younger age by the time they were 16/17.

There is no way on earth that everyone is capable of playing scratch golf. I would be very confident in saying an extremely small percentage of golfers are able to reach 5. I base this on two decades of professional golf and dozens of fit, healthy, wealthy and dedicated golfers that I have observed with every resource known to golf at their disposal not make this even once.

Fore!

[gopherguts]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1406010008' post='9756071']
However, the question at hand is "is it possible." Not "is it probable." [size=5][b]I still maintain that given the desire and means (time and $), anyone can get to scratch.

Still waiting for someone to come forward with their story about dedicating their life and doing everything in their power to get to scratch or better golf and not achieving it.....[/b][/size]
[/quote]
[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1406042172' post='9758251']
Well if you look at the first post I made in this thread I said "realistically, no." I said this because for a lot of people it would take a huge amount of time and dedication. That doesn't make it impossible though! Just improbable. [size=5][b]The answer to the question at the top of the thread is still YES.[/b][/size] It is just a matter of what are you willing to sacrifice to get there. For a large number of amateurs, it would take much more than they are willing to give - hence, we have millions of golfers who aren't anywhere near scratch. I have spoken with the OP privately though and I know what his intention was in asking this question. He is a young man trying to get to a high level of golf, and people saying it's not possible for everyone made him question whether he was one of the lucky ones. What I am trying to convey to him and others is that if you really have the desire to get to that level, I think it is absolutely possible. You just may have to work 100x harder than you thought.....
[/quote]

This just MAY be the dumbest thread ever on WRX. [size=4] [/size][size=4] And THAT is saying something,,,,,,,,, [/size]

So because YOU maintain anybody can do it you're right,,,,,, the answer is "Yes".

Even though YOU can't prove it ?

But the only way you'll believe it's NOT possible is for someone to "prove" it with an example of someone trying as hard as humanly possible and NOT getting there ?

Get a grip. Some people just CAN'T do it. Not coordinated enough and no matter HOW well they're taught and how much they practice they will NEVER get it.

Anybody thinking EVERYBODY has the athletic, never mind the 6 inches between their ears, to become scratch is just whistling in the wind.

I can think I can all I like and train all I like but there's no way I'm knocking out Mike Tyson [size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size][size=4](i[/size][size=4]n his prime of course - I could take him EASILY now !!! [/size][size=4] [/size] [size=4] [/size] [size=4])[/size]

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1406086209' post='9764187']
the only way you'll believe it's NOT possible is for someone to "prove" it with an example of someone trying as hard as humanly possible and NOT getting there ?
[/quote]

Exactly. Myself and several other plus handicaps have participated in this thread saying that we believe it's entirely possible. We've even gone ahead and done it to show you that it is possible!

Now I realize that this doesn't prove that it's possible for everyone. What it does show is that we have put in the work and have a great understanding of what is required to get there. Interestingly, we are all saying the same thing in that we're asking to see evidence that someone put in the required work and didn't even get close to scratch. So far there's evidence for the YES votes, but only opinions and hypotheticals for the NO votes.

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1406086209' post='9764187']
I can think I can all I like and train all I like but there's no way I'm knocking out Mike Tyson [size=4](i[/size][size=4]n his prime of course - I could take him EASILY now !!! [/size][size=4] [/size] [size=4])[/size]
[/quote]

Please go back and read some of the earlier pages. There was a big discussion about the fact that scratch is not even close to Tour level golf, which is the equivalent in the example you're giving here.

[gopherguts]

[size=4][quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1406087739' post='9764341'][/size]
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1406086209' post='9764187']
the only way you'll believe it's NOT possible is for someone to "prove" it with an example of someone trying as hard as humanly possible and NOT getting there ?
[/quote]

Exactly. Myself and several other plus handicaps have participated in this thread saying that we believe it's entirely possible. We've even gone ahead and done it to show you that it is possible!

[size=5][b]Now I realize that this doesn't prove that it's possible for everyone.[/b][/size] What it does show is that we have put in the work and have a great understanding of what is required to get there. Interestingly, we are all saying the same thing in that we're asking to see evidence that someone put in the required work and didn't even get close to scratch. So far there's evidence for the YES votes, but only opinions and hypotheticals for the NO votes.

[/quote]

Thank you very much.

And when you tell me how I can "prove" a negative maybe I'll give it a shot. [size=4] [/size]

Anybody that comes by and says they did as much as humanly possible you'll simply say he should have tried harder or practiced 100 hours a week instead of 90, as that's your main premise. Dedication and hard work - do that and you'll get there. Sorry but that's just wrong,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I[u]M[/u]O of course,,,,,,,,,,,,

Not getting into that "discussion" (any further),,,,,,,,,,,,,,, [size=4] [/size]

[size=4] [/size]

[hbear]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1406087739' post='9764341']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1406086209' post='9764187']
the only way you'll believe it's NOT possible is for someone to "prove" it with an example of someone trying as hard as humanly possible and NOT getting there ?
[/quote]

Exactly. Myself and several other plus handicaps have participated in this thread saying that we believe it's entirely possible. We've even gone ahead and done it to show you that it is possible!

Now I realize that this doesn't prove that it's possible for everyone. What it does show is that we have put in the work and have a great understanding of what is required to get there. Interestingly, we are all saying the same thing in that we're asking to see evidence that someone put in the required work and didn't even get close to scratch. So far there's evidence for the YES votes, but only opinions and hypotheticals for the NO votes.
[/quote]

That is incorrect, I provided ACTUAL cases of many players from my course, 2 of which DEVOTE significant time and effort into their games. e.g. TIME NOR $$$ is an issue when you sell your businesses for serious money and CAN retire at age 40 (now in their mid 50s with one playing 120+ rounds a year, the other 240+ rounds a year....which doesn't include practice time...which YES includes instruction). And the VERY best 2 players that fit into your "ideal example world" only got to low single digits AT BEST. One being a former single digit player in his teens, another that used to complete in long drive ages ago. These guys are both VERY good players....but they aren't scratch golfers. Don't know if playing 5-6x a week, practicing on top, competing in amateur events, playing interclub, getting instruction, etc. for well over 10 years qualifies to you as taking the game serious and devoting significant time to it.....to me it certainly does.

So THERE you have 2 SOLID examples as to NO not EVERYBODY can get to scratch....for those that get there (everybody I know only took 3-4 years) it seems fairly easy and straight forward....I CAN tell you WITH EXAMPLES that this is simply not the case.

To add, I have YET to hear of significant examples of guys who played for many years....couldn't get lower than a 10-15 handicap...then suddenly with some time and focus got to be a scratch player. As posted countless times above, you either pick it up quick (3-4 years) or you just don't get there.....
It's not coincidence....there is a reason this holds true for pretty much EVERY scratch or better player I've ever met or know (those that picked up the game as kids not withstanding).

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='hbear' timestamp='1406088551' post='9764399']
[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1406087739' post='9764341']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1406086209' post='9764187']
the only way you'll believe it's NOT possible is for someone to "prove" it with an example of someone trying as hard as humanly possible and NOT getting there ?
[/quote]

Exactly. Myself and several other plus handicaps have participated in this thread saying that we believe it's entirely possible. We've even gone ahead and done it to show you that it is possible!

Now I realize that this doesn't prove that it's possible for everyone. What it does show is that we have put in the work and have a great understanding of what is required to get there. Interestingly, we are all saying the same thing in that we're asking to see evidence that someone put in the required work and didn't even get close to scratch. So far there's evidence for the YES votes, but only opinions and hypotheticals for the NO votes.
[/quote]

That is incorrect, I provided ACTUAL cases of many players from my course, 2 of which DEVOTE significant time and effort into their games. e.g. TIME NOR $$$ is an issue when you sell your businesses for serious money and CAN retire at age 40 (now in their mid 50s with one playing 120+ rounds a year, the other 240+ rounds a year....which doesn't include practice time...which YES includes instruction). And the VERY best 2 players that fit into your "ideal example world" only got to low single digits AT BEST. One being a former single digit player in his teens, another that used to complete in long drive ages ago. These guys are both VERY good players....but they aren't scratch golfers.

So THERE you have 2 SOLID examples as to NO not EVERYBODY can get to scratch....for those that get there (everybody I know only took 3-4 years) it seems fairly easy and straight forward....I CAN tell you WITH EXAMPLES that this is simply not the case.
[/quote]

Ok so if I may, and since you have a relationship with these guys, I'd like to ask you to go speak with them. Ask them 2 things for me:

1) Do they have a goal to get to scratch or better?
2) If yes, can they honestly say they've done everything in their power to accomplish that goal?

I'm being serious, I'd honestly like to hear what they say. I'd also be curious if you could get them to talk about what held them back from accomplishing the goal. Professional curiosity I suppose.

I'm really ok with being wrong here. I just want to hear from someone who has actually tried their best and failed at this. No offense to you, but that's just not something you can answer for someone else.

[isaacbm]

drewtaylor21

The thing that you're overlooking is this: People that don't show improvement quite quickly almost certainly lose interest to get to that level.

The reason any sane person spends an enormous amount of time and effort to do anything in life is because they really WANT to. But why do people WANT things? They want them because they make them happy, or fulfilled, or bring them peace, or a sense of accomplishment. Or financial gain, or love. I'm sure there's a few more but you get the point.

If a person is not showing improvement in any endeavor that takes a lot of their energy, they usually stop chasing it. It's that simple. You're asking for examples of people who have spent a concentrated amount of time and energy trying to get better at golf and who have still failed. They'd have to be crazy! Or a masochist! Sane people aren't generally geared that way. Sane people find things that they like, show promise at, and get a sense of achievement doing, and then put a lot of time into that activity.

The reason that almost all scratch golfers get there quite quickly is because they show an enormous amount of promise early and therefore put the required effort in to get even better.

Why would I, for example, dedicate my life at 41 to becoming a ballerina? Why would I do it? Is it possible? No because I would never do it. The whole idea of "POSSIBLE" is a romantic notion in this case. It's nice to think/believe that anyone can do anything. The simple fact is that .8 percent of the people can be scratch golfers. How do I know that? because that's how many there are. You just happen to be in that .8 percent. And so does anyone else that puts in the time/energy to do it. The actual number is still .8%.

It's kind of the chicken or the egg: Are you somewhat naturally gifted at an activity and then you put in the time to get even better? Or do you put in all this time at some random activity and then decide later that you actually desire it?

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1406091196' post='9764667']
You just happen to be in that .8 percent. [u]And so does anyone else that puts in the time/energy to do it. [/u]
[/quote]

Exactly!

I've mentioned the necessity for possessing the desire to get to a high level multiple times as a prerequisite and I completely agree with most of your post. My answer this whole time has been "realistically not possible. BUT for the people who actually want to get there and put in the time and effort, YES, it's possible." I agree with you, this is kind of a romanticized version of "everyone," but for the sake of OP's question, I believe 100% that this is the correct answer.

Also, I think chicken or the egg is a perfect way to describe this thread!

[nbg352]

This discussion has gone past the edge, right into the deep abyss of muleheaded blind faith that suggests that if .8% can do it anyone who really wants to do it can too. I guess that no one but the members of the .8 club really want to, otherwise we'd be well past .8. Especially with all the many advances in golf that just make it a little easier for many to get to the .8% level. But it just isn't happening. And that is because it is beyond the capabilities of most golfers, whose world has been dominated by 16 handicappers for a very long time.

[isaacbm]

Then I guess the question is if you get to a scratch level, are you part of the 99.2 percent and you finally got there? Or were you in the .8% all along?

I agree with your idea that desire is a prerequisite to getting there. I'll add though that desire must be maintained throughout the process and the only way that happens is if there is some sense of accomplishment along the way. If you don't show signs of improvement, the desire wanes and then people stop chasing it. So what allows one person to improve and another to plateau at a certain level and never improve further?

Again, chicken or egg? Do you have to have desire to improve? Or is improving what makes you desire going further?

At some level, there has to be a certain amount of aptitude for a person to keep showing signs of improvement. (read: natural ability)

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1406093228' post='9764799']
At some level, there has to be a certain amount of aptitude for a person to keep showing signs of improvement. (read: natural ability)
[/quote]

I think that's why this is such a hard question to answer. There are so many ways to make improvements in golf. Many of which have absolutely zero to do with physical ability. Going back to the idea that Tcombs introduced, what would happen if a lifelong 18 handicapper came and lived with some of us who play to + handicap, practiced with us, played on the course with us, and learned from us and/or our instructors? I can guarantee you that if a 18 handicap with completely average skills played with one of us as his caddie, we could shave multiple strokes immediately just from course management alone. All of a sudden, that golfer may be seeing the game in a new light. They may see the differences in their game vs a better players and start to figure things out....

[ricar1610]

[quote name='4Par' timestamp='1406066748' post='9761377']
Here.... Sir Charles scorecards from last weekend... Can he get to scratch?

[attachment=2336545:ImageUploadedByTapatalk1406066722.315894.jpg]
[/quote]

With a lot of hard work...oh wait he had Haney for like a year...
Maybe if he practiced and played more....oh wait he does...
I think if he really put his mind to it...wait - I just threw up in my mouth just thinking about that swing...
No...it's not possible for everyone to become a scratch golfer because Charles Barkley cannot be a scratch golfer - therefore not everyone can....
Truly I think it is admirable for some to think it is - and I guess you can never say never, but realistically it can't happen. I think Barkley is a great example. He was a world class basketball player - at the top of his profession for over a decade - obviously has incredible hand-eye coordination - and then there is that swing - nope - not everyone can do it. He had access to some of the best instruction and he has a lot of time to play and practice.

[hbear]

But in no way can you extrapolate you can get that 18 capper to scratch.......

As for my friends. Yes they want to get to scratch. Actually they want to be the best golfer they can be.....for them the limitation is a low single digit (they do not consider this to be a failure) No different then how I can't suddenly believe I can play to a plus 6 or achieve even if I did have the time and money to do so. It's nice to believe its possible, but reality does set in. I do not consider it a failure either...are who we are and we ALL have our limits whether you like to believe it or not.

As for part two, I'm not going to bother asking because it's frankly dumb. NOBODY can honestly say they did everything humanly possible....and that is not the point. A guy can sleep 1 less hour in the day, not spend a few hours watching the Open Championship, spend less time having beers with the boys, etc. NOBODY devotes every single waking moment and every second of every day trying to get better at one thing. ANYBODY that says otherwise is lying.

But the point is not about obsession and giving up ones life to pursue one goal. Because frankly, believe it or not, for MOST an INFINITE amount of time is NOT going to make a difference. There is a law of diminishing returns for a reason.

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='hbear' timestamp='1406096519' post='9764981']
But in no way can you extrapolate you can get that 18 capper to scratch.......

As for my friends. Yes they want to get to scratch. Actually they want to be the best golfer they can be.....for them the limitation is a low single digit (they do not consider this to be a failure) No different then how I can't suddenly believe I can play to a plus 6 or achieve even if I did have the time and money to do so. It's nice to believe its possible, but reality does set in. I do not consider it a failure either...are who we are and we ALL have our limits whether you like to believe it or not.

As for part two, I'm not going to bother asking because it's frankly dumb. NOBODY can honestly say they did everything humanly possible....and that is not the point. A guy can sleep 1 less hour in the day, not spend a few hours watching the Open Championship, spend less time having beers with the boys, etc. NOBODY devotes every single waking moment and every second of every day trying to get better at one thing. ANYBODY that says otherwise is lying.

But the point is not about obsession and giving up ones life to pursue one goal. Because frankly, believe it or not, for MOST an INFINITE amount of time is NOT going to make a difference. There is a law of diminishing returns for a reason.
[/quote]

Yeah, you're right. Working your a** off to achieve a dream is pretty dumb. Oh well, luckily no one does that sort of thing.

I'm out guys. I've made my case over and over, I still maintain what I've said all along, and it's clear a lot of us will just have to agree to disagree. I sincerely wish good luck to everyone in achieving whatever level of play they decide is appropriate for them!

[RBImGuy]

1. beliefs
2. strategies.
3. skills
4. actual work to implement the strategies and skills.
5. plan to improve not based on the experts of golfwrx forums beliefs.

Its doable but the majority who wants to be better dont put in the work to do so and even if they do they might not have a good enough plan with strategies and skills to support it.

[Nuggets]

For me at least no........


I don't put in the practice, I don't have the inclination to and I tend to go too hard at the ball on the tee if I have anything other than a long iron in my hand........I'm long enough with my irons to put in a decent score without a wood in the bag (still be above par though) but theres something I enjoy about trying to stripe a driver down a long fairway even if its usually my provisional ball that ends up being the good one after blocking one over the railway track

[Nuggets]

Oh to explain the inclination thing:

I have a couple of other hobbies that include guns and V8's and they're always a little more fun than hitting the range and working on my swing

[nbg352]

Would it be too much to ask the scratch and plus golfers who have indicated that they believe scratch is possible for all, why they haven't taken their own game a step forward toward the ultimate goal...the PGA tour? If scratch is possible for all, then so is that lofty goal, yes?

[BdaGolfer]

To those who are adamant it is possible, go walk the range at the local muni or sit at the first tee for a couple of hours. If you are still convinced that everyone you see can be scratch (real world possible, not theory) then we can agree to disagree.

[DaveLeeNC]

I fall into the 'not everyone is capable' group.

And I am curious about something. Is there anyone out there who has maintained a scratch or better index for a period of time (say a year or more) who was NOT at least a better than average athlete in those sporting activities that 'everyone participates in'. In the US that would be stuff like baseball, basketball, football, etc. The list would be different elsewhere.

My suspicion is that the answer is no, but I don't know for sure. By saying 'better than average' I mean better than the average guys in the neighborhood, not better than the average guys on a team with high selection standards.

dave

[hoganfan924]

Another POV for the scratch or + index guys that think it's possible for anyone of average physical abilities. Do you guys think that you could flip it around to the other side (lefty if you're a righty) at this point in your lives and get to scratch? That's how it's going to feel for a guy in his 20's or older who's never played a ball and stick sport taking up the game for the first time. And don't tell me it's 'unnatural' because I know a guy who started out playing from the opposite side as a kid and got to that level. Of course, Mickelson is prime example #1.

[bdcava]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1406153136' post='9770507']
Would it be too much to ask the scratch and plus golfers who have indicated that they believe scratch is possible for all, why they haven't taken their own game a step forward toward the ultimate goal...the PGA tour? If scratch is possible for all, then so is that lofty goal, yes?
[/quote]

Good point.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1406153136' post='9770507']
Would it be too much to ask the scratch and plus golfers who have indicated that they believe scratch is possible for all, why they haven't taken their own game a step forward toward the ultimate goal...the PGA tour? If scratch is possible for all, then so is that lofty goal, yes?
[/quote]

Um no because that's not what we are saying at all. PGA tour is 1000x harder to reach than scratch. I love how to try to disprove our point you somehow use the PGA tour. That's makes no sense. I'm in grad school. I have no desire to travel every week and make money dependent on my golf game. It's a hobby. That doesn't mean I have to not do well at it. Just because someone golfs, doesn't mean they want to be a professional at it. There's this thing called consistency and I'm not going to abandon something much more certain to play golf for a living and likely struggle to even make money at all week to week. My only career goal is to get to like +2-3 so I can basically always be a contender in state AM events. Maybe if I do incredibly well financially, give the champions tour a run, but I highly doubt playing professional golf will ever be one of my goals, as it certainly isn't now.

[hbear]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1406159212' post='9771115']I fall into the 'not everyone is capable' group.

And I am curious about something. Is there anyone out there who has maintained a scratch or better index for a period of time (say a year or more) who was NOT at least a better than average athlete in those sporting activities that 'everyone participates in'. In the US that would be stuff like baseball, basketball, football, etc. The list would be different elsewhere.

My suspicion is that the answer is no, but I don't know for sure. By saying 'better than average' I mean better than the average guys in the neighborhood, not better than the average guys on a team with high selection standards.

dave[/quote]

I suspect the same. Of course there will be the outlier given the law of large numbers. But I was a much better than average athlete in track, hockey, football, etc. All the guys I play with that meet the above criteria were as well (although to varying degrees)....both young and older guys.

[nbg352]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1406164328' post='9771785']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1406153136' post='9770507']
Would it be too much to ask the scratch and plus golfers who have indicated that they believe scratch is possible for all, why they haven't taken their own game a step forward toward the ultimate goal...the PGA tour? If scratch is possible for all, then so is that lofty goal, yes?
[/quote]

Um no because that's not what we are saying at all. PGA tour is 1000x harder to reach than scratch. I love how to try to disprove our point you somehow use the PGA tour. That's makes no sense. I'm in grad school. I have no desire to travel every week and make money dependent on my golf game. It's a hobby. That doesn't mean I have to not do well at it. Just because someone golfs, doesn't mean they want to be a professional at it. There's this thing called consistency and I'm not going to abandon something much more certain to play golf for a living and likely struggle to even Don't you make money at all week to week. My only career goal is to get to like +2-3 so I can basically always be a contender in state AM events. Maybe if I do incredibly well financially, give the champions tour a run, but I highly doubt playing professional golf will ever be one of my goals, as it certainly isn't now.
[/quote]
Then, how about the next level up from wherever it is you guys are at? Golf is easy enough that I should be able, along with every ordinary guy who can swing a club, to get to scratch, you boys should be able to dedicate yourselves enough to be able to earn a good living on the tour...or some tour. Or is it that now our excuses for not advancing also become yours? Or are you finally willing to admit that not everyone has the innate ability to get to the next level, no matter what the next level is? That life is not a level playing field? Perhaps even that the field you play on, while at a higher level than that of most golfers, has become your penultimate level? And you cannot climb above it and so you simply set sights on new, different goals while wondering why there aren't more golfers playing at your level. Because you got there so quickly, after all........

[gopherguts]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1406089074' post='9764453']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1406086209' post='9764187']
[size=5][b]the only way you'll believe it's NOT possible is for someone to "prove" it[/b][/size] with an example of someone trying as hard as humanly possible and NOT getting there ?
[/quote]

[size=5][b]Exactly[/b]. [/size]Myself and several other plus handicaps have participated in this thread saying that we believe it's entirely possible. We've even gone ahead and done it to show you that it is possible!

[size=5][b]Now I realize that this doesn't prove that it's possible for everyone. [/b][/size]What it does show is that we have put in the work and have a great understanding of what is required to get there. Interestingly, we are all saying the same thing in that we're asking to see evidence that someone put in the required work and didn't even get close to scratch. So far there's evidence for the YES votes, but only opinions and hypotheticals for the NO votes.
[/quote]

[quote name='hbear' timestamp='1406096519' post='9764981']
But in no way can you extrapolate you can get that 18 capper to scratch.......

[size=5][b]As for my friends. Yes they want to get to scratch. [/b][/size]Actually they want to be the best golfer they can be.....for them the limitation is a low single digit (they do not consider this to be a failure) No different then how I can't suddenly believe I can play to a plus 6 or achieve even if I did have the time and money to do so. It's nice to believe its possible, but reality does set in. I do not consider it a failure either...are who we are and we ALL have our limits whether you like to believe it or not.

But the point is not about obsession and giving up ones life to pursue one goal. Because frankly, believe it or not, for MOST an INFINITE amount of time is NOT going to make a difference. There is a law of diminishing returns for a reason.
[/quote]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1406097579' post='9765039']
[size=5][b]Yeah, you're right. Working your a** off to achieve a dream is pretty dumb.[/b][/size] Oh well, luckily no one does that sort of thing.

I'm out guys. [size=5][b]I've made my case over and over[/b][/size], I still maintain what I've said all along, and it's clear a lot of us will just have to agree to disagree. I sincerely wish good luck to everyone in achieving whatever level of play they decide is appropriate for them!
[/quote]

First you agree you won't believe it UNLESS someone "proves" it's NOT possible for everyone while in your next breath admitting you HAVEN'T proved it IS.

Then, when a guy DOES "prove" it (at least as much as YOU did), you get your panties in a bunch and come back with a sarcastic "[size=4]Yeah, you're right. Working your a** off to achieve a dream is pretty dumb." as if that had anything to do with what he actually said. [/size]

And then, clearly in a snit, you claim you made your case "over and over" when you did NO SUCH THING.


May I also point out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1406088531' post='9764397']
[b]Anybody that comes by and says they did as much as humanly possible you'll simply say he should have tried harder or practiced 100 hours a week instead of 90, as that's your main premise.[/b]
[/quote]

Damn, did I call it or what ?

[size=4]Wait, I know. Have DeNinny come up with some "data" for you,,,,, [/size]