Have You Ever Wondered...

[dereckbc]

If today's players are as good as the stars of the past?

 

Do any really stand up to Hogan, Casper, Hagen, Player, Nelsen, Sarazen, Watson, Snead, Palmer, and the two best of Nicklaus and Bobby Jones (Jones only person to won the GS)?

 

I do not think the question can be objectively answered. The courses and equipment of the greats is completely different requiring great deal of fell and touch. Even the grass on the green and fairways are different today, and all the equipment to maintain courses is completely different. Clubs, grips, and balls entirely different. Even the clothes they wore are different.

[Chrisc1100]

To shoot the scores the old timers did with the equipment they had, I'd say they'd take most (but not all) of today's pros.

[Playaway]

Jack would have handed Tiger his a$$.

[flopshot99]

I'm not a tiger fan...at the top of his game he was better then jack..

[Musky]

Players were hungrier in the days of old. Portions were smaller then.

[dereckbc]

[quote name='flopshot99' timestamp='1435032346' post='11816296']
I'm not a tiger fan...at the top of his game he was better then jack..
[/quote]

Tiger was good, but I do no think he was better than Jack. All of Jack' stats are better than Tiger's. You might make a case for years 1999 to 2003 Tiger was better, than Jack for those short 4 years, but over the span of a career Jack stands out. As far as character goes, there is no comparison.

Between Jack and Arnie they made modern day Florida what it is today. Orlando would still be a small town if not for Arnie building Bay Hill. Disney would have never noticed. South Florida would still be a swamp if not for Jack building a retirement mecca. Both are extremely dedicated family men and huge business entrepreneurs who's legacy will live long after they are gone.

[c7015]

[quote name='dereckbc' timestamp='1435082057' post='11819712']
[quote name='flopshot99' timestamp='1435032346' post='11816296']
I'm not a tiger fan...at the top of his game he was better then jack..
[/quote]

All of Jack' stats are better than Tiger's
[/quote]

oh really .... so like how about the tournaments won stat ?

[c7015]

[quote name='dereckbc' timestamp='1435082057' post='11819712']
[quote name='flopshot99' timestamp='1435032346' post='11816296']
I'm not a tiger fan...at the top of his game he was better then jack..
[/quote]

All of Jack' stats are better than Tiger's
[/quote]

oh really .... so like how about consecutive cuts made stat ?

[NoTalentLefty]

The level of guys competing is greater now as a whole, but more players were pushing Jack at the topside, Trevino, Watson, Palmer, Player, etc. Don't believe you can compare.

Or maybe no one pushed Tiger in his glory because the others were good but Tiger was that much better.

Who knows other than God and does He even care about stupid crap like this?

[cardoustie]

there was very little tolerance for misses with the older equipment. The top guys were all the best ball strikers and not necessarily just the bombers

I am thinking of guys like Miller, Watson, Nicklaus, Palmer, Trevino etc. They hit the sweet spot like machines

Hogan was on an otherworldly level ... non injured his game today would be hard to beat tee to green

so was Nelson and it amazes me guys like Jones could go low with crappy balls and hickory shafts

Anyone see the old Nelson and Venturi two vs two man Shell match ... Nelson is 10 years into retirement and they hand the other twosome their lunches.

[wobgon]

[quote name='dereckbc' timestamp='1435014224' post='11813784']
If today's players are as good as the stars of the past?

Do any really stand up to Hogan, Casper, Hagen, Player, Nelsen, Sarazen, Watson, Snead, Palmer, and the two best of Nicklaus and Bobby Jones ([i]Jones only person to won the GS[/i])?

I do not think the question can be objectively answered. The courses and equipment of the greats is completely different requiring great deal of fell and touch. Even the grass on the green and fairways are different today, and all the equipment to maintain courses is completely different. Clubs, grips, and balls entirely different. Even the clothes they wore are different.
[/quote]
YES....Many members of this forum have wondered what you are wondering, which is why there have been threads like this one over and over and over and over again with the same responses over and over and over and over again.

[John L.]

Unless you have played with the old persimmon/laminated heads, don't bother comparing the driver game because you don't know what you are talking about.

The new drivers, along with the low spin balls are almost stupid easy to control compare to the old persimmons drivers and Titleist - Pro Trajectory balls.

[NoTalentLefty]

[quote name='John L.' timestamp='1435088950' post='11820602']Unless you have played with the old persimmon/laminated heads, don't bother comparing the driver game because you don't know what you are talking about.

The new drivers, along with the low spin balls are almost stupid easy to control compare to the old persimmons drivers and Titleist - Pro Trajectory balls.[/quote]

That's damn straight. The ball could start out a fairway over and it up in the fairway on the other side of the one you were playing.

[wobgon]

[quote name='John L.' timestamp='1435088950' post='11820602']
Unless you have played with the old persimmon/laminated heads, don't bother comparing the driver game because you don't know what you are talking about.

The new drivers, along with the low spin balls are almost stupid easy to control compare to the old persimmons drivers and Titleist - Pro Trajectory balls.
[/quote]
I disagree...Not as much difference as most think.....My handicap has been about the same for many, many years with persimmon and all the equipment that has replaced it.

[stealthrt91]

[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1435089238' post='11820630']
[quote name='John L.' timestamp='1435088950' post='11820602']
Unless you have played with the old persimmon/laminated heads, don't bother comparing the driver game because you don't know what you are talking about.

The new drivers, along with the low spin balls are almost stupid easy to control compare to the old persimmons drivers and Titleist - Pro Trajectory balls.
[/quote]
I disagree...Not as much difference as most think.....My handicap has been about the same for many, many years with persimmon and all the equipment that has replaced it.
[/quote]

This is a tough comparison - as you get older you get weaker. The new equipment is helping you hit the ball further and with more forgiveness hence you may still be getting the same scores as when you were playing the old equipment but IF you were playing that old equipment at and older age... would your scores still be the same?

Regardless, back on topic. I personally think if you gave those legends back then in their prime today's equipment... they would have SMOKED the leaders of today.

[John L.]

[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1435089238' post='11820630']
[quote name='John L.' timestamp='1435088950' post='11820602']
Unless you have played with the old persimmon/laminated heads, don't bother comparing the driver game because you don't know what you are talking about.

The new drivers, along with the low spin balls are almost stupid easy to control compare to the old persimmons drivers and Titleist - Pro Trajectory balls.
[/quote]
I disagree...Not as much difference as most think.....My handicap has been about the same for many, many years with persimmon and all the equipment that has replaced it.
[/quote]

Maybe because you learned to control your swing. The fact still remains that you cannot get away with a lot of swing errors with the old radius faced woods and high spin balls.

[warfelg21]

I think the old guys would hand the current players their tails.

Consider Jack in his prime was hitting 300+ yard bombs with an old ball out wood clubs. I'm just picturing Bubbas distance with Spieths precision and Phils ability to move a ball.

[wobgon]

[quote name='stealthrt91' timestamp='1435089682' post='11820694']
[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1435089238' post='11820630']
[quote name='John L.' timestamp='1435088950' post='11820602']
Unless you have played with the old persimmon/laminated heads, don't bother comparing the driver game because you don't know what you are talking about.

The new drivers, along with the low spin balls are almost stupid easy to control compare to the old persimmons drivers and Titleist - Pro Trajectory balls.
[/quote]
I disagree...Not as much difference as most think.....My handicap has been about the same for many, many years with persimmon and all the equipment that has replaced it.
[/quote]

This is a tough comparison - as you get older you get weaker. The new equipment is helping you hit the ball further and with more forgiveness hence you may still be getting the same scores as when you were playing the old equipment but IF you were playing that old equipment at and older age... would your scores still be the same?

Regardless, back on topic. I personally think if you gave those legends back then in their prime today's equipment... they would have SMOKED the leaders of today.
[/quote]
I still play the old equipment from time to time.....Not that much different for me, although i should have been clear that i am not saying there is no difference.

[wobgon]

Anyone know where to find the study they did a few years ago where they compared the old and new equipment.....They did things like hit old ball with new clubs and new ball with old clubs.....Although it was mostly distance oriented, the distance differences were surprisingly small.

[Vindog]

Players were hungrier in the days of old. Portions were smaller then.

 

You aint been hungry since you won that belt!!

 

[warfelg21]

[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1435108613' post='11822722']
Anyone know where to find the study they did a few years ago where they compared the old and new equipment.....They did things like hit old ball with new clubs and new ball with old clubs.....Although it was mostly distance oriented, the distance differences were surprisingly small.
[/quote]

Well yea old ball + new club against old club + new ball would be close.

New ball new club vs old ball old club would see differences in shots not hit square on the sweet spot. Not to mention taking out spin for a guy like Jack (high spin kinda guy) and playing an optimal graphite shaft and loft, he would gain distance.

[c7015]

so using some of the logic about equipment because trees were smaller in the old days it was easier on the players...

clubs, balls ,course length are all irrelevant since all players just like today had to play using the same stuff. Makes it relative.

more population with more means then ever = more talent potential, which makes it harder to dominate now ...

have you ever wondered why records are almost always broken ?

[doublehans]

It probably depends on the player. Someone like Tiger in his prime that could hit every shot, every trajectory would have had a bigger advantage versus the field with the old equipment. The old equipment gave the best players with good ballstriking/shotmaking a bigger advantage over the field because the other guys were at a bigger disadvantage than they were with persimmon/balata (Tiger's driver advantage versus the field was the most apparent in 1997 when pretty much everyone was still playing balata). Els would have probably won more majors if every one had to play persimmon/balata, just on pure ballstriking. Phil would have been an interesting one tho. Certainly, the short game and iron play would hold up. But I wonder whether he could have controlled his driver spin/trajectory enough with persimmon/balata. Probably, but I'm not sure. Rory's ability to hit driver down the middle and sky high long irons is right out of Jack's playbook, he too would probably had a bigger advantage with the old equipment. Spieth probably figures out a way anytime. On the other hand, while Sergio's ball striking is so good that he should theoretically have had a bigger advantage with the older equipment, he'd probably figure out a way to lose anyway.

[Bellyhungry]

Physically, today's players are better.

Mentally, the players in the past were probably stronger.

Now as far as who whoop whose butt, it depends on how much you believe golf in terms of physical vs. mental.

[TahoeDust]

[quote name='dereckbc' timestamp='1435082057' post='11819712']
Orlando would still be a small town if not for Arnie building Bay Hill. Disney would have never noticed. South Florida would still be a swamp if not for Jack building a retirement mecca. Both are extremely dedicated family men and huge business entrepreneurs who's legacy will live long after they are gone.
[/quote]

Arnie did not buy Bay Hill until '74. Walt starting acquiring property for Disney World in '65 (at which time I am pretty sure Bay Hill was only a 9 hole track) and opened the park in '71...

[warfelg21]

Damn. This all makes me with we could see Jack with today's technology and fitness combined with his mental fortitude. Damn. Would be a sight to behold.

[doublehans]

[quote name='warfelg21' timestamp='1435110023' post='11822916']
Damn. This all makes me with we could see Jack with today's technology and fitness combined with his mental fortitude. Damn. Would be a sight to behold.
[/quote]

This goes both ways tho. It'd be pretty awesome to see Rory's driving and long iron play with persimmon and balata go up against Jack with the same. Just seeing two guys that could take it so high and so accurate. Likewise, it would have been amazing to watch vintage Tiger, the one with every shot in the bag, flight the ball with the old equipment rather than the new stuff thats made to go straighter. Who knows what Bubba would have done with balata and persimmon......

[MacDaddyMike]

[quote name='dereckbc' timestamp='1435082057' post='11819712']
[quote name='flopshot99' timestamp='1435032346' post='11816296']
I'm not a tiger fan...at the top of his game he was better then jack..
[/quote]

Tiger was good, but I do no think he was better than Jack. All of Jack' stats are better than Tiger's. You might make a case for years 1999 to 2003 Tiger was better, than Jack for those short 4 years, but over the span of a career Jack stands out. As far as character goes, there is no comparison.

Between Jack and Arnie they made modern day Florida what it is today. Orlando would still be a small town if not for Arnie building Bay Hill. Disney would have never noticed. South Florida would still be a swamp if not for Jack building a retirement mecca. Both are extremely dedicated family men and huge business entrepreneurs who's legacy will live long after they are gone.
[/quote]
What does character have to do with who was the better golfer?