Courses that skew handicap

[SurfDuffer]

Was looking at my recent handicap scores. Two scores jump out at me. A 79 on my home course that shows as a differential of 8.5 and a 79 at a much easier course that shows as a 4.5

79 69.5/126 8.5

79 73.7/134 4.5

 

The first course is an old school par 70 with narrow fairways and small lightning fast greens. There are not a lot of easy scoring opportunities on this course. Breaking 80 on this course feels like an accomplishment for me.

 

The second course is much easier. Par 72 with lots of scoring opportunities and lots of easy pars. Has wide fairways, huge greens, two drivable par 4s and 2 of the 4 par 5s are reachable. The other two par 5s play very easy. Shooting 80 or higher on this course feels like a bad day for me.

 

If I had to guess my index would be at least 2 or 3 shots lower if I played the second course as often as I play the first.

 

This got me wondering how accurate handicaps are for the members of this course when they play away or against members of other courses? On the flip side, does my home course's difficulty have the opposite effect.

[SNIPERBBB]

Small greens and narrow fairways should mean a good travel cap if ifs not absurdly short. My home course is short and narrow. My problem is my ball striking seems to go away when I leave

 

[hdr_ric]

The course ratings and slopes do not align with your descriptions, unless I am reading your post wrong.

 

Is one of them miss-rated? A 126 slope is a pretty easy course provided it is properly rated.

[ratspros]

I see this as well as the two courses I most regularly play are as follows;

 

One a tight old school track, not long at 6,518 yards and par 71 but lots of places to lose a ball only a few feet off the fairway, the other a newer style longer track with WIDE fairways at 7143 yard par 72. The tight tree lined old course is rated at 71/128 and the longer new course is rated at 74.6/142

 

Now I realize why they are rated this way as the old school course is shorter and it doesn't have to many forced carries and the newer course has quite a few forced carries but as a better golfer you don't ever really consider a 200 yard carry off a tee a tough accomplishment. A bogey golfer will definetly find the new course harder but for me looking at my last 10 rounds on each course my scoring average is almost identical. 73.23 on the easy rated course and 73.31 on the harder rated course.

 

It's funny because I play with two completely different groups and everyone at the hard course thinks I'm a sandbagger and everyone at the easier course thinks I'm worse then my handicap.

[pingfool]

your description of the easy course doesn't sound like a 73.7/134 slope

 

My home course from the back tees (6800yds) = 73.1/131 - is very demanding (despite ample fairways)

 

something not adding up with your original premise?

[Matt J]

I often wonder the same. I think my home track is rated fairly, but a lot of our members don't travel well. I think it has more to do with playing at home too much from the same tees.

 

No way to equalize a system to reward/punish every part of the game. The shorter player will always be punished by long and soft layouts, the same as the crooked with tight and punitive. You're lucky your game seems to suit either, so less of an obvious deficit.

[SurfDuffer]

your description of the easy course doesn't sound like a 73.7/134 slope

 

My home course from the back tees (6800yds) = 73.1/131 - is very demanding (despite ample fairways)

 

something not adding up with your original premise?

 

That's the whole point of the thread silly. That course is nowhere near as difficult as its rating meanwhile my home course plays harder than its rating.

[Shilgy]

The real problem is that course ratings, like equipment, fit some players better than others. Got a great short game and go play a course where the green complexes are it's strength and you will think it's rated too hard. Play a course that is difficult off the tee and your driver is not working you'll think it should be rated harder.

[Augster]

This does happen a lot. My course is EASY while my friend's course is hard but they are both about the same rating and slope and distance. I'm about 10 shots worse at his course.

 

It's simple really. My course doesn't really penalize really bad shots, his does. If you hit decent shots, both courses play the same. If you hit terrible shots, you simply can't score at his course.

 

My first hole, open left, open right. I can hit it anywhere. His first hole, OB left, red hazard right. If I snap hook, I'm hitting 3 from the tee. At my course on the first with a snap hook, I'm likely hitting 9 iron in from the second fairway.

 

Second hole, open left, pond right. His course, OB left, and anything in the left rough runs down the hill to OB, red hazard right the entire length. Again, snap hook I'm hitting 3, at my course I probably have a hybrid in from number 1. A push is auto penalized at his course, at my course, most of the time you miss the pond right.

 

Third hole, my course, red hazard left, open right, par 3. Most of the time hitting 8 or 9 iron, so snap hooks don't happen very often. His course is a par 4, you guessed it, OB left, red hazard right the entire way.

 

And on it goes. My course has one demanding tee shot. His course has 12 of them and nearly all of them are OB left. My friend exclusively plays a fade/slice, as I'm sure I would if his course were my home course as a coping mechanism. My course, there aren't a lot of penalties for over hooking a ball, and the hook is a huge advantage on 3 driving holes.

 

My course is "easier" if you hit terrible shots. Especially hooks. His course penalizes you severely if you over hook a ball on nearly every hole. If you hit a straight ball about 230, you'd absolutely swear both courses play the same, but his is a tougher walk. :)

[Mudguard]

I heard something interesting about the ratings system, two new courses, one is very long but with almost no out of bounds, hazards or chances to lose balls. So it's been rated easier than the owner expected.

 

Another course has numerous bunkers on each hole but apparently the ratings system almost ignores bunkers if they're not greenside. So if you actually wind up in one, you're left with the hardest shot in golf.

[Newby]

I heard something interesting about the ratings system, two new courses, one is very long but with almost no out of bounds, hazards or chances to lose balls. So it's been rated easier than the owner expected.

 

Another course has numerous bunkers on each hole but apparently the ratings system almost ignores bunkers if they're not greenside. So if you actually wind up in one, you're left with the hardest shot in golf.

 

Obstacles (trees, bunkers, WHs, extreme rough, OB etc) are only considered by the rating formula if they are in or near the target area for the specific shot of the standard (scratch or bogey) player being rated. The target area is the distance the standard player is expected to hit that shot (ie from the tee or fairway).

[Halebopp]

Courses at my old and current home clubs fit the bill perfectly. Off the men's regular tees they are rated the same and are of equal length if you adjust for the one-shot difference in par number (72: 6290 yards 71.6/131 and 73: 6480, 72.5/131). The course at my current home club is tight and on most shots it's very possible to lose a ball at least on one side of the fairway/green if you miss wide or long. The old one was wide open with only a couple of OBs but even then, there were adjacent fairways on the other side so no real worries if you really want to play it safe even with a driver in your hand. Thus you can use the driver freely on the other course but might need irons off the tee on the other affecting the actual playing length of the course by quite a bit.

 

The only difference is the easier course is filled with bunkers, they have about a hundred of them whereas the tight one has less than 20. The joke is, that course would play much easier if there were 50 bunkers stopping even some of the wayward balls. The tight course does have quite flat greens which do make it easier to putt but they won't help with stopping shots. The other has pretty much all the greens sloped towards the fairway and are very receptive.

 

Neither of the courses have forced carries either except for one par 3 on the tighter one. A 175-yard par 3 with water all the way up to the green, some 160 yards..

 

Golf Digest ranked all the courses in the country last year, they say the tighter course is amongst the most difficult in the country and simply too difficult for some to enjoy. They consider the other course to be quite easy. Yet, they are rated the same. The rating team must be a bunch of straight shooters or terrible out of bunkers. :D

 

I do love the tight course though not only for its challenge. It sees less action so it stays in great shape, it is very beautiful with elevation changes etc. and it's rarely crowded (even if it was, they have 12-minute intervals in tee times) so it often feels like you have the whole course all to yourself.

[Newby]

Golf Digest ranked all the courses in the country last year, they say the tighter course is amongst the most difficult in the country and simply too difficult for some to enjoy. They consider the other course to be quite easy. Yet, they are rated the same. The rating team must be a bunch of straight shooters or terrible out of bunkers. :D

 

 

It has nothing to do with the individual raters. The rating procedure assumes that players will hit to their targets (Bogey drive - 200, scratch 250, (pros average about 290 and GWRXers about 320, I gather :swoon: ).

 

Difficulties long and short of targets are not rated. Fairway width is. Regardless of how many bunkers there are scattered about, it is only their location that counts.

[Sean2]

The course I play is very short, but extremely unforgiving. The place is simply littered with hazards. Essentially you hit the ball in the fairway or you are in a hazard or OB, there is very little rough. And, on a few holes you can hit the fairway and still end up in a hazard (I've hit left center fairway and still ended up in the pond). To play an entire round and not lose a golf ball is quite a feat, and that goes for the scratch golfer as well.

 

On few occasions I do play another course, I rarely lose a golf ball. I have played two of the top 50 most difficult courses in the US and did not lose a ball on either course.

 

I am sure if I played other courses regularly, as opposed to mine, my HI would be lower.

[Newby]

The 'top rated' courses will have placed all the problems adjacent to the target areas for the scratch golfer and made it a long course. That is how you get the Rating up.

[BIG STU]

A lot of it depends on your home course. Now my home course on the face and this is just IMHO is not too hard fairway to green. The greens is where the difficulty arises from someone that does not play it a lot. there are places on those greens where you do or do not hit it. I know the place like the back of my hand having played it a lot over the course of 13 years. Now I know it is due to be rerated in the near future because they have taken out a few of the strategic placed trees in the middle of the fairways that have gotten bigger and frankly have made holes darn near impossible to play in par for the average golfer and senior golfer like myself. i do not keep a formal handicap because I do not play comp anymore and have no use for the USGA period. I use a computing system and really my 5 I have posted is actually probably a 2 or 3 on my home course but traveling I will say around a 5 or 6. But it really does not matter with the group I mostly play with because we know each others games and we make adjustments on the matches accordingly. Our games are really matched up good

[Halebopp]

Golf Digest ranked all the courses in the country last year, they say the tighter course is amongst the most difficult in the country and simply too difficult for some to enjoy. They consider the other course to be quite easy. Yet, they are rated the same. The rating team must be a bunch of straight shooters or terrible out of bunkers. :D

 

 

It has nothing to do with the individual raters. The rating procedure assumes that players will hit to their targets (Bogey drive - 200, scratch 250, (pros average about 290 and GWRXers about 320, I gather :swoon: ).

 

Difficulties long and short of targets are not rated. Fairway width is. Regardless of how many bunkers there are scattered about, it is only their location that counts.

 

So, as long the fairway is of equal width at the landing areas, it doesn't matter whether there's manicured rough and another fairway or natural forest next to it? Only defined difficulties, such as hazards and OB and their proximity to the landing areas matter?

[Newby]

Golf Digest ranked all the courses in the country last year, they say the tighter course is amongst the most difficult in the country and simply too difficult for some to enjoy. They consider the other course to be quite easy. Yet, they are rated the same. The rating team must be a bunch of straight shooters or terrible out of bunkers. :D

 

 

It has nothing to do with the individual raters. The rating procedure assumes that players will hit to their targets (Bogey drive - 200, scratch 250, (pros average about 290 and GWRXers about 320, I gather :swoon: ).

 

Difficulties long and short of targets are not rated. Fairway width is. Regardless of how many bunkers there are scattered about, it is only their location that counts.

 

So, as long the fairway is of equal width at the landing areas, it doesn't matter whether there's manicured rough and another fairway or natural forest next to it? Only defined difficulties, such as hazards and OB and their proximity to the landing areas matter?

 

See post #11 but it is rather more subtle than that. The distance of the problem from the target area is related to the length of shot to be played.

[suprfli6]

Does anyone know how often courses are re-rated? There's a state park course near me that's rated 68.9 from the whites (par 72) despite being one of the hardest courses in the area. The two courses I'm a member at are both much easier but are rated harder. It almost feels like they rated the park course so long ago that either the standards were different or the trees were much smaller and over time have made the course play much harder.

[Newby]

"....at least once every 10 years, ...."

 

A new course must be re-rated within 5 years of the initial rating.

[suprfli6]

Interesting, thanks.

 

I wonder how there are such obvious disparities between local courses then. Even if I played that state park course as often as the others, my average score would still be at least 5 strokes higher. It has very few holes with any bail-outs, more bunkers (both fairway and greenside), is longer, and has a couple holes that force you to shape the ball one way or the other or else you have no chance of hitting the green in regulation.

[deadsolid...shank]

This is a good topic. I started a thread a year or so ago about how a course plays compared to its rating can have a dramatic effect on handicaps.

 

We play two courses on a semi-regular basis. One of them is very short. Especially the back nine which winds in and around huge cottonwood trees. Hitting it dead straight even with an iron doesn't even leave clear shots on several holes. In order to get into real scoring position you really have to be able to control your ball, both trajectory and sideways. Then the greens are very severe, quite fast with quite a bit of break. There are several of them where a putt that is just slightly missed will run completely off the green. The front side however is not nearly so severe and has a couple of par fours just over 300 yards, so it's pretty short also.

 

The rating is only 68. something. In a recent JUCO tournament there no one was under par for two days. There are only a few bunkers and OB only realistically comes into play on a few holes. Most of us who play both courses normally only have a variation of one or two shots between this one and our home course which is rated at 73.5. The guys who play a majority of their rounds at the first course are tough to beat in the net games.

[Newby]

In order to get into real scoring position you really have to be able to control your ball, both trajectory and sideways.

 

Probably too many players using the big clubs.

[deadsolid...shank]

In order to get into real scoring position you really have to be able to control your ball, both trajectory and sideways.

 

Probably too many players using the big clubs.

 

Almost always. On that back nine, driver twice for me (and on more than one occasion, zero times) unless I took my "stupid" pills before the round. Then it appears more than it should, but who doesn't almost always think the next shot is going to finally be the perfect one?!

[SurfDuffer]

My home course which is 69.5/126 will eat you alive if you are not a great putter or if you miss greens. Even though the greens are small, a green in regulation isn't even close to being an easy par. If you're above the hole on any of our holes a 2-putt becomes unlikely even from close range. Some visitors even complain that our greens aren't fair as they are some of the fastest around.

[Newby]

For general play they should stimp at about 8.5-9. Max 9.5.

[Shilgy]

For general play they should stimp at about 8.5-9. Max 9.5.

where is this that greens that slow are the norm? Ours are 10.5 and up.

[knock it close]

I see this as well as the two courses I most regularly play are as follows;

 

One a tight old school track, not long at 6,518 yards and par 71 but lots of places to lose a ball only a few feet off the fairway, the other a newer style longer track with WIDE fairways at 7143 yard par 72. The tight tree lined old course is rated at 71/128 and the longer new course is rated at 74.6/142

 

Now I realize why they are rated this way as the old school course is shorter and it doesn't have to many forced carries and the newer course has quite a few forced carries but as a better golfer you don't ever really consider a 200 yard carry off a tee a tough accomplishment. A bogey golfer will definetly find the new course harder but for me looking at my last 10 rounds on each course my scoring average is almost identical. 73.23 on the easy rated course and 73.31 on the harder rated course.

 

It's funny because I play with two completely different groups and everyone at the hard course thinks I'm a sandbagger and everyone at the easier course thinks I'm worse then my handicap.

Lol I came here to post about hp too, I don't travel too well playing there all the time.

[Newby]

The following from the USGA.

 

Stimpmeter readings on American golf courses generally range from 7 feet to 12 feet, depending on many factors including slope, contours, green size, grasses, weather, budget, etc. Experience shows that trying to keep the speed above 10 feet on a consistent basis usually causes difficult-to-manage turf problems and is not recommended.

 

Knowing the speed of a putting green may assist in determining whether a hole location will give fair results. A green so fast, or a hole cut in such a position, that a ball cannot be stopped near the hole from any point on the green, for example, is an unfair challenge. Faster is not necessarily better, nor should it be the goal. This especially holds true for daily play because putting greens that are too fast will slow play. It is also detrimental to turf health and requires more resources to achieve. Determining an appropriate green speed for daily play will vary considerably for each golf facility and is dependent on many factors, some of which include: turfgrass species, putting green architecture and construction method, budget, time of year and golfer ability. Putting greens prepared for championships and special events should be uniformly paced and are generally faster, but not as fast as possible, than daily play. The greens should place a premium on well-executed shots, while exacting a penalty for less precise shots. Green speeds for championships and special events should appropriately challenge the skill level of the players competing. Strive for championship conditions only for limited periods of time, principally for important events. Turfgrass failure is common when championship conditions are maintained for too long or when adverse weather conditions occur.

 

The USGA stimpmetered putting greens across the country to produce the following recommendations: Slow 4.5 feet (1.4 m)

Medium 6.5 feet (2.0 m)

Fast 8.5 feet (2.6 m)

For the U.S. Open, they recommend:

Slow 6.5 feet (2.0 m)

Medium 8.5 feet (2.6 m)

Fast 10.5 feet (3.2 m)

The greens at Oakmont Country Club (where the stimpmeter was conceived) are some of the fastest in the world, with readings of 13–15 feet (4.0–4.6 m).

 

But these are a few years old and are probably 1 ft faster now.

[deadsolid...shank]

For general play they should stimp at about 8.5-9. Max 9.5.

 

I think those are good numbers if the greens have much in the way of undulation. I think it's a little slowish(the 8.5)for mostly flat greens. Especially if they're bigger. Not much fun putting on really big greens that roll so slowly you can't get the ball to the hole.