Confessions 12 --- Exploding Heads

[billh17]

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Wtf did I just watch haha

Cool Hand Luke !

[mdgboxx]

All I can muster (and this most assuredly be met with a yes-but)... is that we started off here at an oasis in the land of internet vipers, braggarts, trolls, and who out-scored who. It was so "other" oriented and fun it was indescribable. Anyone who happens to have been here at the time and would deny that fact is in denial.

 

Everyone's journey was considered valid cause he/she is a golfer - a flawed one - willing to confess as much. The oasis we had - the energy we all put into traveling together arm in arm.... that's changed.

 

You see I'm already disappointed entropy took hold here - and that little oasis became more about who has the last word and the biggest baddest best declaration.

 

Shame on me for those tears. I miss what confessions was and shame on me for ever thinking it would continue to be that oasis where the focus was the other person ahead of ourselves.

 

So go ahead and "yes but" this one. Score points. Play offense - defense - whatever you like cause now that Confessions turned into that versus what it was at the onset... go right ahead and take one more typical forum dump on it and drive one more nail in the good old days of what it was when the ship left harbor in those early days.

 

Shame on me. What ever possessed me to think this time it would be different and why in heaven's name did I believe it had a fighting chance of lasting? Its gone and nothing now can save it. We can block each other - bicker - rationalize - "yes but" - fix blame - walk away for good.

 

It doesn't change anything in terms of paradise lost. No action or reaction can un-ring the bell. It's too late for that one. Stay, bail, yell, sit, stand, blame someone, or blame yourself. It's done now. A successful transition of Confessions to internet norm managed to happen and I just happen to be the first one to call the patient DOA. But - the NEW confessions has arrived. That one will last forever.

 

Congrats team. We can at least say we had it - even if only for a while.

 

This isn't aimed at you Reason, this is just for us all...

So, what's nice about being an old person...sorry, older, is that you get to look back on your life and see things you should have done differently, maybe the bad things, and then you are happy for the good ones. You are happy for the friends you have, and miss dearly the ones who came and went. One thing you learn is to never give up. And you also learn to not be so full of pride (oh yes, especially guys) that you can't reach out to, those who meant a lot most to you in some way even though you may not have realized it, and just undo a bad conversation, or situation you got yourself into and make it right. It only takes a short time to allow yourself to build walls between yourself and others, but when you look back, it is part of what you regret the rest of your life. Life is too short to allow petty situations to rob you of something you really like, or people whom in general you have many things in common with. You may not always completely agree with someone, but if everyone on this planet were exactly like you or me, it would be a very boring place, and even we would get agitated with ourselves occasionally. Never be afraid to apologize, never be afraid to make things right. Please consider thinking how you may feel someday when you are older, and have gray hair, and wish you had made different choices, even in simple instances... how you will feel then, will actually help with how you feel now...

 

I like this better. But, I'm already too late to this "flash mob".

[mdgboxx]

Just checked in

Slowly catching up

 

Glad no one’s head exploded

 

Stu hope you did not get too wet down your way.

 

Hope your church had some good insurance on the equipment

 

Happy BD Hammy! Nice you got out!

 

Happy BD to Mrs. 61

 

May was a good month

 

My Mrs. 61 just went to 62

 

When I saw the thread title, I thought it referred to club heads exploding. Years ago when I worked at a course, we had a strange phenomenon occur - quite a few people bringing in Taylormade iron heads that had flown off their shafts. Of course, there were always wood heads splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces. I seem to remember finding pieces of black Walter Hagen woods with some regularity.

 

It was at our 2006 annual Golf Show. Nike introduced the New Square driver. They were pulled within the first half hour. More than half a dozen heads had flown off into the nets.

[billh17]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

[Michael C.]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

 

So glad things worked out. WOW!

 

A tip of the hat to Man upstairs, my friend. Happy you're okay and feeling better.

[mdgboxx]

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Woahh! I remember that movie. **Cool Hand Luke**, knocking off a couple parking meter heads, will get you the chain gang..... In black and white to boot!

[mdgboxx]

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Wtf did I just watch haha

 

I believe that was from "Cool Hand Luke". BSC and I must be about the same age. I just turned 49.

 

Be 46 in June. (In my prime ; )

 

Remember the car wash scene from that movie?

 

Whoa!

 

Whoa is right! Talk about bounce :)

 

"What we've got here is a failure to communicate"

 

 

That is the best part of the script.

[mdgboxx]

Ninja I'm playing out of Centennial now.

 

Anybody have any experience with golfer's elbow? I think I may have some ulnar nerve impingement.

 

Don't you mean tennis elbow?

 

You know, this type of tendinitis, common among Fly Fishermen? :cheesy:

[billh17]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

 

So glad things worked out. WOW!

 

A tip of the hat to Man upstairs, my friend. Happy you're okay and feeling better.

thank you sir

[mdgboxx]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

 

So glad to see you made it through OK.

 

I was working in a hospital as a maintenance tech, and had to fix something in the AC supply system, in the OR. I had to dress like the surgeons and get my tools sanitized before walking in. As I walked by the patient, opened like a can of tomatoes, my first thought was: "WOW, the Ultimate Mechanics" !

 

You seem to have something coming out of your nose, in the avatar. Do you need a Kleenex? :rofl:

[billh17]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

 

So glad to see you made it through OK.

 

I was working in a hospital as a maintenance tech, and had to fix something in the AC supply system, in the OR. I had to dress like the surgeons and get my tools sanitized before walking in. As I walked by the patient, opened like a can of tomatoes, my first thought was: "WOW, the Ultimate Mechanics" !

 

You seem to have something coming out of your nose, in the avatar. Do you need a Kleenex? :rofl:

was going to try to get one of the pretty young nurses to pose with me...... they laughed and went on their merry way !

[Pigems]

Ninja I'm playing out of Centennial now.

 

Anybody have any experience with golfer's elbow? I think I may have some ulnar nerve impingement.

 

Don't you mean tennis elbow?

 

You know, this type of tendinitis, common among Fly Fishermen? :cheesy:

 

Peanuts Daddy had that a couple seasons ago, he ended up switching to graphite shafts to help his elbows I believe?? :)

[Palauan Hammer]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

 

Bill, so glad to hear your OK! Great avatar pic, is that you, you handsome devil! Blessings come in all forms and I'm certainly glad they found the Aneurysm in time! Hoping for a full recovery for you, be strong and you'll be back on the course in no time :) -TJ-

[Palauan Hammer]

Shot 80. D'OH!

 

Almost, but still and excellent round!! Should've went for the birdie :D

[DeNinny]

This is exactly what I mean . . .

 

"As far as me "lecturing" you, I apologize for that. It wasn't meant to be a lecture. It was meant to clarify your understanding of bounce. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me on the topic but I'm telling you that your understanding of the science of it is incorrect. And yes you can take this to the bank. What I've told you about bounce is 100% true and within the laws of physics. I have no issue with you not wanting to believe that. You simply posted something about it and I clarified it. Once you agreed to drop it and not discuss it, I believe I dropped it with you as well."

 

So if you said gravity wasn't real, I would be telling you the same thing (that is real, just like the detriments of bounce). I'm sorry if you think it is lecturing. I mean it as I'm telling you the truth. That's all.

 

In addition it's condescending.

 

I have no issues declaring you the winner if this will end your attempts to 'educate' me.

 

I don't need to be spoken to like I'm a village idiot. I've read a few books, played a few rounds, attended a few classes, and lived a long life.

 

It's not about declaring a winner or speaking to someone like they are an idiot. It's just the facts.

 

Water is the only substance on earth that gains in volume when frozen. (As well as in contact of heat)

Physics is the only Science that is not negotiable.

 

Some 20+ years ago, a group of researchers challenged one of Einstein's Theories, only to display further proof that he was right.

 

Accepting that fact makes Physics easier to understand.

 

The Amazing Kreskin believes that the supernatural is nothing more than the natural that we have yet to explain. I, for one, agree with him.

 

As an HVAC tech, accepting the Physics and most of the Chemistry behind it, made my job a whole lot enjoyable. The hardest part was trying to explain the concept to someone with a medical issue (mostly "hot flashes") or to people sitting in an office while they were on a strict diet. ( They would be cold when they ran out of fuel (food) and be hot an hour after they ate)

 

Understanding the physics of golf has made MY journey much, much more enjoyable. In fact it has become something inseparable from it. I have a much clearer path on what equipment I play and what I need to change in my swing. It has enhanced my romance with the game. And every time I have to explain it, my understanding becomes a little more refined and polished, which further enhances my romance and is also why I like discussing it so much. And yes, it is completely non-negotiable. "It is what it is..."

 

I work with some highly experienced HVAC techs. LOL and some don't like an engineer messing around with their equipment, so I stay out of their way unless they need my help. I really like working with and learning from the experienced guys too. They are stubborn at times but are also a wealth of information. And being on the same page about the physics and chemistry of an issue is the ultimate goal of every troubleshooting study. Every now and then we take bets about the right solution to a problem, and it is all in good fun since we care more about the science being right in the end. Winning the bet is always secondary.

[thug the bunny]

Signing out..bye y'all

 

Maybe I'll come back when the thread isn't clogged with posts telling everyone how wrong they are about their knowledge and thoughts about equipment and the golf swing.

 

Why can't you all figure out that you are all just WRONG?! Don't argue, you are just WRONG!

[DeNinny]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

 

So glad to see you made it through OK.

 

I was working in a hospital as a maintenance tech, and had to fix something in the AC supply system, in the OR. I had to dress like the surgeons and get my tools sanitized before walking in. As I walked by the patient, opened like a can of tomatoes, my first thought was: "WOW, the Ultimate Mechanics" !

 

You seem to have something coming out of your nose, in the avatar. Do you need a Kleenex? :rofl:

was going to try to get one of the pretty young nurses to pose with me...... they laughed and went on their merry way !

 

billh17, it is so good you are well enough to post! LOL I was going to feel sorry for you until you posted about hot nurses...hope there's nothing "coming out" of your gown! "Hang" in there, buddy. Thinking positive thoughts for you...

[DeNinny]

Signing out..bye y'all

 

Maybe I'll come back when the thread isn't clogged with posts telling everyone how wrong they are about their knowledge and thoughts about equipment and the golf swing.

 

Why can't you all figure out that you are all just WRONG?! Don't argue, you are just WRONG!

 

If this is aimed at me, FYI I have NEVER said anybody is playing the wrong equipment or has the wrong swing. I also NEVER want anyone NOT to argue (as in discuss where there is technical disagreement).

 

And also I'm completely open to having an argument over the science of anything. Let's figure out and DISCUSS what is technically wrong, with anyone's statements. Mine included.

 

So if I ever gave you this impression you have about this thread, then I apologize and am completely open to anything you want to technically discuss. And I'm open to being wrong.

[Matt J]

BillH, glad the doc's caught the aneurysm and were able to stint it. That's what my grandfather died from unexpectedly when I was a kid. Sad times.

 

I guess golfer's elbow is usually on the medial side and tennis elbow on the distal side of the elbow (palms facing up the one closer to your torso and further respectively).

 

I started trying taking the club back differently last week because I couldn't get any height on my 5 and 3W. It's working out pretty well, but it makes my arm hurt. About half way down the ulna on the medial side there's a sore spot and it hurts with very little pressure. I tried to look up some of the anatomy last night, seems like maybe it's the muscles that flex your fingers. I might be squeezing the club too hard. I'm going to try and lighten my grip pressure, ice and massage it, and hit fewer balls for awhile.

 

The swing change was suggested a long time ago by a friend, but I wasn't ready for it back then. Basically I realized that I roll the club away from the ball on the backswing and it starts me off too flat. Now I have the sensation of moving the handle back and down the line and then hinge my wrists. It makes my swing plane much taller but that seems to also make it harder to get the club face square at impact so I've been hitting a lot of accidental fades. Incorporating it at the same time as the tempo work was not ideal, but once you know what you need to do it's hard to put it on hold.

 

Nice thing with the new membership is the track doesn't have nearly as much water. I played the same ball for 18 holes yesterday, where at the other course you usually lose 1 to 2 no matter how good you are.

 

Edited to add (mostly for DeNinny): The "scene" around these two courses has changed a little in the year I've been a member. The new ownership at Eagle Point is really spending money on the golf course side of the operation and has attracted a lot of golfers in the last two years. They started out with bent grass greens in 1996 but let the inevitable Poa Annua creep in and maintained it turn it into the "good" Poa Annua in 15 or 20 years. Now, that time has come, so a lot of people prefer their greens. When they're set up for a tournament I enjoy them, but for member play (there is SO MUCH member play) they are often shaggy and bumpy.

 

Centennial was built around 2006 and also put bent grass greens in before opening. They paid a greenskeeper to go from green to green in the morning and hand dig the Poa Annua sprouts out of the green for the first 8 or 9 years. Last year the parent company decided that was too labor intensive and they were losing the battle and resigned themselves that the Poa is coming. The greens at Centennial seem to also vary depending on time of day and amount of play, but first thing in the morning is definitely the time of day to play.

 

I did chunk a couple of little easy pitches out there yesterday morning because they water so heavily overnight and first thing in the morning that it's a little like winter golf right around the green complexes. I wasn't paying attention to the turf and caught one a little fat on the first hole. Wish I had noticed and pulled my HIGH BOUNCE wedge :)

[DeNinny]

Interesting note about Centennial vs Eagle Point greens, MJ. When Centennial opened, my buddy that is from down there was raving about how fast they were. I never had an issue with Eagle Point greens.

 

Another really good OR course with great greens is Emerald Valley.

 

LOL about high bounce wedge. As long as you *think* it is going to help, it will! But I still challenge you to do a side by side test of low vs high bounce wedge in ANY/ALL conditions. Hit over 30 balls with each wedge the same way and with wedges that differ only in bounce...in my experience...LOW bounce...F...T...W...!

[Matt J]

Both courses have great greens. They're public golf courses and they're never going to roll like a country club, but they each have very good greenskeepers with good staffs. The whole thing with the Poa Annua is mostly with these super hot days and lots of irrigation, it grows super quick and pops those little white blooms. When the green is getting lots of use, you have ball marks, spike marks, poa sprouts, break, grain, etc. etc. etc. - it becomes a little overwhelming. I think my putting is improving more due to attitude and expectations than anything else at this point. I'm trying to make every putt, but I'm also conscientious that I want to err on leaving myself the shortest putt possible from outside 20 or 25 feet. Centennial has enormous greens that make me more nervous than having the same shot with a wedge in my hand.

 

As far as bounce... one last time :)

 

I have a 56 with about 14 degrees and a 60 with 6. So, I can't hit shots with the same loft and different bounce. But, I can't reconcile that we wouldn't want to play extremes in bounce. A 2 degree 8 iron and a 14 degree 3 iron each would be a disaster in their own right. But, for instance, when chunk and running a shot from a sand trap I want the higher bounce. As for the physics, I fully admit, I don't know nor really want to know at this point what's going on. I personally feel there is a bigger margin for error as for speed, contact point in the sand, depth of bottoming the club, amount of follow through, etc.

 

I have been hitting my 60 out of the sand more frequently, but there is something to the low bounce that the leading edge wants to dig and slow the follow through. I probably hit better shots with more spin, just like off of grass, but it seems more probably to go really wrong. Just as many of us have said repeatedly, sometimes you want a scalpel and sometimes a bludgeoning tool. Precise contact is a benefit on a super tight lie, but correct speed and follow through is more important on softer surfaces, especially sand, and that's easier for me to focus on when I'm not as worried about bottoming the club and contacting the sand in EXACTLY the right spot.

 

Little tidbit for those that are still reading... I putted yesterday with that new Bettinardi BB1 I bought off the BST. I like it, it's a lot like my Byron and will make a great back-up putter. So, it is naked just like my DH-89 and for the life of me I've never seen a BB1 that's naked (no sightline in the flange).

 

I pulled up a ton of images, asked around the forum, and finally called Betti today to find out the dealio. The fella in the office tells me there were about 6 or so that slipped through engraving without a sight line. Who would have guessed? Turns out that I wouldn't own it any other way than being a "mistake."

[mdgboxx]

 

 

In addition it's condescending.

 

I have no issues declaring you the winner if this will end your attempts to 'educate' me.

 

I don't need to be spoken to like I'm a village idiot. I've read a few books, played a few rounds, attended a few classes, and lived a long life.

 

It's not about declaring a winner or speaking to someone like they are an idiot. It's just the facts.

 

Water is the only substance on earth that gains in volume when frozen. (As well as in contact of heat)

Physics is the only Science that is not negotiable.

 

Some 20+ years ago, a group of researchers challenged one of Einstein's Theories, only to display further proof that he was right.

 

Accepting that fact makes Physics easier to understand.

 

The Amazing Kreskin believes that the supernatural is nothing more than the natural that we have yet to explain. I, for one, agree with him.

 

As an HVAC tech, accepting the Physics and most of the Chemistry behind it, made my job a whole lot enjoyable. The hardest part was trying to explain the concept to someone with a medical issue (mostly "hot flashes") or to people sitting in an office while they were on a strict diet. ( They would be cold when they ran out of fuel (food) and be hot an hour after they ate)

 

Understanding the physics of golf has made MY journey much, much more enjoyable. In fact it has become something inseparable from it. I have a much clearer path on what equipment I play and what I need to change in my swing. It has enhanced my romance with the game. And every time I have to explain it, my understanding becomes a little more refined and polished, which further enhances my romance and is also why I like discussing it so much. And yes, it is completely non-negotiable. "It is what it is..."

 

I work with some highly experienced HVAC techs. LOL and some don't like an engineer messing around with their equipment, so I stay out of their way unless they need my help. I really like working with and learning from the experienced guys too. They are stubborn at times but are also a wealth of information. And being on the same page about the physics and chemistry of an issue is the ultimate goal of every troubleshooting study. Every now and then we take bets about the right solution to a problem, and it is all in good fun since we care more about the science being right in the end. Winning the bet is always secondary.

 

Haha!

 

There HAS to be a simple reason why I have something in common with your HVAC techs.

 

The only way to get along with a competent/experienced "working tech" is to gain his confidence/trust.

 

How do we reach that goal, you ask?

 

Eventually, you will have to privately discredit a fellow engineer. Whenever the quotes/plans/conceptions/installations are not respected "to the letter", and supervision is left to a skimpy bureaucrat, you're asking for trouble.

 

It's simple enough to evaluate the size of any system. Unsupervised contractors will deliberately ignore valid access for routine maintenance, and repairs or upgrade.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but wasn't the Bay of Mexico oil spill disaster traced back to a bureaucrat who made the decision to omit the installation of a safety valve, so he could save 4 1/2 hrs in cost?

 

Last I heard, he wasn't put on death row for High Treason.

 

How many car mechanics do you know that will willfully promote one brand over all others?

[glk]

Since heads have already exploded. Bounce, my take

 

Not as simple as a number, 6 , 12 , .... Sole width. Where peake bounce is on sole. Grind relief. Technique. How shallow. How much consistent shaft lean.

 

I am pretty decent at the ball at armpit, shallow delivery, with min shaft lean ( not measured but looking at maybe 0-6 as a range).

 

My Mack daddy 2 14*C grind work very well for me and are versatile when facing different conditions. I'm not buying bunch of wedges to worry about sand and soil condition. When open the leading edge sits a quarter inch lower than my old 6* bounce vokey - magic of design.

 

The chip/ pitch swing are different than full. Sequence is not same order. Min shaft lean And delivering bounce is goal. Bounce is reduced by shaft lean so a 4* bounce wedge becomes a knifes edge with 4+ degrees of lean - better be precise.

 

Works well for me. Folks need to play what they have confidence in. Heck, I putt from tight lies any chance I get.

[billh17]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

 

Bill, so glad to hear your OK! Great avatar pic, is that you, you handsome devil! Blessings come in all forms and I'm certainly glad they found the Aneurysm in time! Hoping for a full recovery for you, be strong and you'll be back on the course in no time :) -TJ-

 

posted that great pic to show what 5 days of saline drips will do for ya !

Thanks to all you guys for the well wishes !

[MMB1500]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

 

Bill, very happy to hear this got caught early and it worked out. Very fortunate indeed. We're very glad to have you back. See you in the clubhouse grille!

[DeNinny]

In addition it's condescending.

 

I have no issues declaring you the winner if this will end your attempts to 'educate' me.

 

I don't need to be spoken to like I'm a village idiot. I've read a few books, played a few rounds, attended a few classes, and lived a long life.

 

It's not about declaring a winner or speaking to someone like they are an idiot. It's just the facts.

 

Water is the only substance on earth that gains in volume when frozen. (As well as in contact of heat)

Physics is the only Science that is not negotiable.

 

Some 20+ years ago, a group of researchers challenged one of Einstein's Theories, only to display further proof that he was right.

 

Accepting that fact makes Physics easier to understand.

 

The Amazing Kreskin believes that the supernatural is nothing more than the natural that we have yet to explain. I, for one, agree with him.

 

As an HVAC tech, accepting the Physics and most of the Chemistry behind it, made my job a whole lot enjoyable. The hardest part was trying to explain the concept to someone with a medical issue (mostly "hot flashes") or to people sitting in an office while they were on a strict diet. ( They would be cold when they ran out of fuel (food) and be hot an hour after they ate)

 

Understanding the physics of golf has made MY journey much, much more enjoyable. In fact it has become something inseparable from it. I have a much clearer path on what equipment I play and what I need to change in my swing. It has enhanced my romance with the game. And every time I have to explain it, my understanding becomes a little more refined and polished, which further enhances my romance and is also why I like discussing it so much. And yes, it is completely non-negotiable. "It is what it is..."

 

I work with some highly experienced HVAC techs. LOL and some don't like an engineer messing around with their equipment, so I stay out of their way unless they need my help. I really like working with and learning from the experienced guys too. They are stubborn at times but are also a wealth of information. And being on the same page about the physics and chemistry of an issue is the ultimate goal of every troubleshooting study. Every now and then we take bets about the right solution to a problem, and it is all in good fun since we care more about the science being right in the end. Winning the bet is always secondary.

 

Haha!

 

There HAS to be a simple reason why I have something in common with your HVAC techs.

 

The only way to get along with a competent/experienced "working tech" is to gain his confidence/trust.

 

How do we reach that goal, you ask?

 

Eventually, you will have to privately discredit a fellow engineer. Whenever the quotes/plans/conceptions/installations are not respected "to the letter", and supervision is left to a skimpy bureaucrat, you're asking for trouble.

 

It's simple enough to evaluate the size of any system. Unsupervised contractors will deliberately ignore valid access for routine maintenance, and repairs or upgrade.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but wasn't the Bay of Mexico oil spill disaster traced back to a bureaucrat who made the decision to omit the installation of a safety valve, so he could save 4 1/2 hrs in cost?

 

Last I heard, he wasn't put on death row for High Treason.

 

How many car mechanics do you know that will willfully promote one brand over all others?

 

Absolutely an engineer needs to earn the respect and trust of experienced techs! That is something I learned early in my career. If an engineer does not get along well with techs, then he better be VERY good and keep tabs on everything, which is next to impossible. So the better tact is to work WITH the techs as a team, and also I feel an engineer needs to "walk a mile" in the techs shoes. The LAST thing an engineer should do is alienate himself from the experienced techs. He can easily, as you say, be "discredited" for nearly anything that may have been missed in the design and construction of a system.

 

I think the ultimate goal in the design of a system is to keep the priority for operations and maintenance at the highest level. Unfortunately there is a mentality in construction and design to keep the project cost low, which makes the later operational expenses high. I don't think this is a good mentality and I often get frustrated with budget cutting project managers. Obviously there needs to be a balance, but if the ultimate goal is TOTAL cost of ownership, then one should not cut corners in the design just to save a little money that will end up costing MORE to address later. And any project team that I am on, I want and demand, if possible, that there be a senior experienced tech involved in the design so that things like easy access and maintenance are incorporated. Also in my experience, the best design engineers are the ones that have had operations experience.

 

LOL I have seen many project managers get promoted for low budget projects and then they move on but yet years later the engineers and techs are fixing things that weren't funded and built during the original project.

[DeNinny]

Both courses have great greens. They're public golf courses and they're never going to roll like a country club, but they each have very good greenskeepers with good staffs. The whole thing with the Poa Annua is mostly with these super hot days and lots of irrigation, it grows super quick and pops those little white blooms. When the green is getting lots of use, you have ball marks, spike marks, poa sprouts, break, grain, etc. etc. etc. - it becomes a little overwhelming. I think my putting is improving more due to attitude and expectations than anything else at this point. I'm trying to make every putt, but I'm also conscientious that I want to err on leaving myself the shortest putt possible from outside 20 or 25 feet. Centennial has enormous greens that make me more nervous than having the same shot with a wedge in my hand.

 

As far as bounce... one last time :)

 

I have a 56 with about 14 degrees and a 60 with 6. So, I can't hit shots with the same loft and different bounce. But, I can't reconcile that we wouldn't want to play extremes in bounce. A 2 degree 8 iron and a 14 degree 3 iron each would be a disaster in their own right. But, for instance, when chunk and running a shot from a sand trap I want the higher bounce. As for the physics, I fully admit, I don't know nor really want to know at this point what's going on. I personally feel there is a bigger margin for error as for speed, contact point in the sand, depth of bottoming the club, amount of follow through, etc.

 

I have been hitting my 60 out of the sand more frequently, but there is something to the low bounce that the leading edge wants to dig and slow the follow through. I probably hit better shots with more spin, just like off of grass, but it seems more probably to go really wrong. Just as many of us have said repeatedly, sometimes you want a scalpel and sometimes a bludgeoning tool. Precise contact is a benefit on a super tight lie, but correct speed and follow through is more important on softer surfaces, especially sand, and that's easier for me to focus on when I'm not as worried about bottoming the club and contacting the sand in EXACTLY the right spot.

 

...

 

I am very with you about being intimidated (at times) by large greens and having to putt on them. There is a point where you just don't practice those really long putts as much and so confidence in them is much lower than the same distance chip shot with a wedge. Some of it is based on confidence but also sometimes you want to have the ball get some air time before it starts rolling.

 

And LOL regarding "one last time" discussing bounce. I can go as long as you want on this topic.

 

If you want the higher bounce in the sand and don't care about the physics, that is fine! All I have ever stated is simply the true physics of what it does, and it was discussed earlier that the overall amount % of it contributing to a tangible benefit OR detriment is negligible when compared to the golfer's own error with his own techniques. We are talking about 2mm or so of extra metal on the bottom of the club. The theory says that that extra 2mm is going to displace more sand and whether or not this is going to make the club dig less or dig slower, when you look at that extra total mass of sand moved by that extra 2mm, that really isn't a lot of mass to begin with. But hey, if the psychology of it gives you the confidence, then absolutely that will override this marginal amount of physics.

 

As to your 60* experience in the sand, until you compare directly (as per my challenge) how a low bounce 60* works vs a high bounce one, you really will never know what I am talking about. Or you could use a low vs high bounce 56* or 54*. I never elaborated on this before but I have done the actual comparison in hitting different shots out of different lies with a 5* bounce 60 (Mizuno MP-R) and a 12* bounce 60 (Cleveland CG10), and there is no doubt to me that all shots in all lies were easier with the lower bounce wedge. But it only mattered every once and a while since you can hit most shots well (or equally as bad) with either club. If you still think the bludgeoning tool is better, that's great if it helps psychologically, but honestly there is no science that supports that. And there is no point arguing that this physics is wrong unless you actually try a direct comparison. Over time and with enough repetition, the statistics of the detriments of higher bounce (again...ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL) will eventually come through.

 

And for the record for anyone reading this, in NONE of this post or ANY other of my post have I stated anyone is playing the wrong club. I'm just relaying the basic physics.

[mdgboxx]

 

 

Water is the only substance on earth that gains in volume when frozen. (As well as in contact of heat)

Physics is the only Science that is not negotiable.

 

Some 20+ years ago, a group of researchers challenged one of Einstein's Theories, only to display further proof that he was right.

 

Accepting that fact makes Physics easier to understand.

 

The Amazing Kreskin believes that the supernatural is nothing more than the natural that we have yet to explain. I, for one, agree with him.

 

As an HVAC tech, accepting the Physics and most of the Chemistry behind it, made my job a whole lot enjoyable. The hardest part was trying to explain the concept to someone with a medical issue (mostly "hot flashes") or to people sitting in an office while they were on a strict diet. ( They would be cold when they ran out of fuel (food) and be hot an hour after they ate)

 

Understanding the physics of golf has made MY journey much, much more enjoyable. In fact it has become something inseparable from it. I have a much clearer path on what equipment I play and what I need to change in my swing. It has enhanced my romance with the game. And every time I have to explain it, my understanding becomes a little more refined and polished, which further enhances my romance and is also why I like discussing it so much. And yes, it is completely non-negotiable. "It is what it is..."

 

I work with some highly experienced HVAC techs. LOL and some don't like an engineer messing around with their equipment, so I stay out of their way unless they need my help. I really like working with and learning from the experienced guys too. They are stubborn at times but are also a wealth of information. And being on the same page about the physics and chemistry of an issue is the ultimate goal of every troubleshooting study. Every now and then we take bets about the right solution to a problem, and it is all in good fun since we care more about the science being right in the end. Winning the bet is always secondary.

 

Haha!

 

There HAS to be a simple reason why I have something in common with your HVAC techs.

 

The only way to get along with a competent/experienced "working tech" is to gain his confidence/trust.

 

How do we reach that goal, you ask?

 

Eventually, you will have to privately discredit a fellow engineer. Whenever the quotes/plans/conceptions/installations are not respected "to the letter", and supervision is left to a skimpy bureaucrat, you're asking for trouble.

 

It's simple enough to evaluate the size of any system. Unsupervised contractors will deliberately ignore valid access for routine maintenance, and repairs or upgrade.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but wasn't the Bay of Mexico oil spill disaster traced back to a bureaucrat who made the decision to omit the installation of a safety valve, so he could save 4 1/2 hrs in cost?

 

Last I heard, he wasn't put on death row for High Treason.

 

How many car mechanics do you know that will willfully promote one brand over all others?

 

Absolutely an engineer needs to earn the respect and trust of experienced techs! That is something I learned early in my career. If an engineer does not get along well with techs, then he better be VERY good and keep tabs on everything, which is next to impossible. So the better tact is to work WITH the techs as a team, and also I feel an engineer needs to "walk a mile" in the techs shoes. The LAST thing an engineer should do is alienate himself from the experienced techs. He can easily, as you say, be "discredited" for nearly anything that may have been missed in the design and construction of a system.

 

I think the ultimate goal in the design of a system is to keep the priority for operations and maintenance at the highest level. Unfortunately there is a mentality in construction and design to keep the project cost low, which makes the later operational expenses high. I don't think this is a good mentality and I often get frustrated with budget cutting project managers. Obviously there needs to be a balance, but if the ultimate goal is TOTAL cost of ownership, then one should not cut corners in the design just to save a little money that will end up costing MORE to address later. And any project team that I am on, I want and demand, if possible, that there be a senior experienced tech involved in the design so that things like easy access and maintenance are incorporated. Also in my experience, the best design engineers are the ones that have had operations experience.

 

LOL I have seen many project managers get promoted for low budget projects and then they move on but yet years later the engineers and techs are fixing things that weren't funded and built during the original project.

 

THAT! (BOLD)

 

I (we) call them bureaucrats (yingyingneers, no yang. lol) :bigwhack: and you must refer to them as Project Managers...Protocol, I get it. LMAO :good:

[DeNinny]

Since heads have already exploded. Bounce, my take

 

Not as simple as a number, 6 , 12 , .... Sole width. Where peake bounce is on sole. Grind relief. Technique. How shallow. How much consistent shaft lean.

 

I am pretty decent at the ball at armpit, shallow delivery, with min shaft lean ( not measured but looking at maybe 0-6 as a range).

 

My Mack daddy 2 14*C grind work very well for me and are versatile when facing different conditions. I'm not buying bunch of wedges to worry about sand and soil condition. When open the leading edge sits a quarter inch lower than my old 6* bounce vokey - magic of design.

 

The chip/ pitch swing are different than full. Sequence is not same order. Min shaft lean And delivering bounce is goal. Bounce is reduced by shaft lean so a 4* bounce wedge becomes a knifes edge with 4+ degrees of lean - better be precise.

 

Works well for me. Folks need to play what they have confidence in. Heck, I putt from tight lies any chance I get.

 

There isn't anything in this that is outside of what I have been stating about the physics. All those other variables is why you can mitigate the detriments of higher bounce and why the pure physics is only based on fixing all those other variables as equal. And that design "magic" you stated is precisely something that is no longer equal between your 14* Mack daddy and your old 6* bounce wedge. The grind on that 14* is critical! The "magic" basically is REMOVING the bounce when in the open face position, giving it LESS bounce than the 6* when moved in that position. That is why it is better than the 6* in that scenario.

 

As to needing to be precise with 4+ degrees of shaft lean with a 4* bounce wedge, I agree that is risky in that now the leading edge is lower. My contention is that you don't need to lean the shaft so much with a 4* bounce wedge, you can actually keep the shaft a little more vertical and it will raise that leading edge to an "acceptable" height. But if you do this with a high bounce wedge, the lowered sole will be a DETRIMENT since now it has a higher chance of hitting the ground first compared to the lower bounce wedge.

[mdgboxx]

Both courses have great greens. They're public golf courses and they're never going to roll like a country club, but they each have very good greenskeepers with good staffs. The whole thing with the Poa Annua is mostly with these super hot days and lots of irrigation, it grows super quick and pops those little white blooms. When the green is getting lots of use, you have ball marks, spike marks, poa sprouts, break, grain, etc. etc. etc. - it becomes a little overwhelming. I think my putting is improving more due to attitude and expectations than anything else at this point. I'm trying to make every putt, but I'm also conscientious that I want to err on leaving myself the shortest putt possible from outside 20 or 25 feet. Centennial has enormous greens that make me more nervous than having the same shot with a wedge in my hand.

 

As far as bounce... one last time :)

 

I have a 56 with about 14 degrees and a 60 with 6. So, I can't hit shots with the same loft and different bounce. But, I can't reconcile that we wouldn't want to play extremes in bounce. A 2 degree 8 iron and a 14 degree 3 iron each would be a disaster in their own right. But, for instance, when chunk and running a shot from a sand trap I want the higher bounce. As for the physics, I fully admit, I don't know nor really want to know at this point what's going on. I personally feel there is a bigger margin for error as for speed, contact point in the sand, depth of bottoming the club, amount of follow through, etc.

 

I have been hitting my 60 out of the sand more frequently, but there is something to the low bounce that the leading edge wants to dig and slow the follow through. I probably hit better shots with more spin, just like off of grass, but it seems more probably to go really wrong. Just as many of us have said repeatedly, sometimes you want a scalpel and sometimes a bludgeoning tool. Precise contact is a benefit on a super tight lie, but correct speed and follow through is more important on softer surfaces, especially sand, and that's easier for me to focus on when I'm not as worried about bottoming the club and contacting the sand in EXACTLY the right spot.

 

...

 

I am very with you about being intimidated (at times) by large greens and having to putt on them. There is a point where you just don't practice those really long putts as much and so confidence in them is much lower than the same distance chip shot with a wedge. Some of it is based on confidence but also sometimes you want to have the ball get some air time before it starts rolling.

 

And LOL regarding "one last time" discussing bounce. I can go as long as you want on this topic.

 

If you want the higher bounce in the sand and don't care about the physics, that is fine! All I have ever stated is simply the true physics of what it does, and it was discussed earlier that the overall amount % of it contributing to a tangible benefit OR detriment is negligible when compared to the golfer's own error with his own techniques. We are talking about 2mm or so of extra metal on the bottom of the club. The theory says that that extra 2mm is going to displace more sand and whether or not this is going to make the club dig less or dig slower, when you look at that extra total mass of sand moved by that extra 2mm, that really isn't a lot of mass to begin with. But hey, if the psychology of it gives you the confidence, then absolutely that will override this marginal amount of physics.

 

As to your 60* experience in the sand, until you compare directly (as per my challenge) how a low bounce 60* works vs a high bounce one, you really will never know what I am talking about. Or you could use a low vs high bounce 56* or 54*. I never elaborated on this before but I have done the actual comparison in hitting different shots out of different lies with a 5* bounce 60 (Mizuno MP-R) and a 12* bounce 60 (Cleveland CG10), and there is no doubt to me that all shots in all lies were easier with the lower bounce wedge. But it only mattered every once and a while since you can hit most shots well (or equally as bad) with either club. If you still think the bludgeoning tool is better, that's great if it helps psychologically, but honestly there is no science that supports that. And there is no point arguing that this physics is wrong unless you actually try a direct comparison. Over time and with enough repetition, the statistics of the detriments of higher bounce (again...ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL) will eventually come through.

 

And for the record for anyone reading this, in NONE of this post or ANY other of my post have I stated anyone is playing the wrong club. I'm just relaying the basic physics.

 

To build confidence in a carry over water shot, I will picture it *without water*.

 

That said, what if I picture my ball in a creek, 1" under water? I definitely will want my lowest bounce, higher lofted wedge. Sometimes, common sense comes in mysterious ways. :cheesy:

 

I know, I'm weird in my way of thinking outside the box. :swoon: :taunt: