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Why does a draw go farther?


ChristianT

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Dan, I am very good with numbers. I had courses in Lp and Banach spaces. When you're dealing with Trackman numbers don't lose your common sense!

 

Obviously not because the poll shows the draw going further losing. And I'm not basing it on Trackman numbers. I'm basing it on years of real world results. Radar just simply backs up my experience. You've obviously lost common sense. I posted facts and proof. No hypotheticals

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A draw has favourable spin. A fade spins backwards and away from the body . A draw spins forward and toward the body.

 

Think of ping pong. Cutting the paddle below the ball will suck the ball back. But swatting the paddle from down to up will put forward spin on it.

 

That's why playing a fade into the wind magnifies the height on the shot.

 

OK, OK, I give. (Maybe) ya got me. Maybe all the others have been around long enough not to fall for it but,,,,,,,,,,

 

Then again, since you also posted this, I'm not so sure.

 

You're right too many people are using stiff and it will really affect the game. I accidentally grabbed a stiff shaft 19* hybrid to test on the simulator and hacked every shot. (I'm usually fairly automatic to hit 200 with my current 21* hybrid) Realized I needed a regular flex and piped nearly every shot afterward as well as 243 off the mat. A lot of amateurs buy stiff shaft out of the "cool" factor. I believe they assume that flex in a shaft is for women. That's what I thought years ago. I'm a 34 y/o 13 handicap currently and have a 86 mph swing. I need a little whip or I'll push it for sure.

 

Read the board. Read this thread.

 

Anything resembling a properly hit shot does NOT have topspin. They ALL have backspin.

 

For some/many/most, a draw TENDS to fly lower and has less (back)spin than a fade. THAT is why you would see more roll out on a draw than a fade.

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You're not very good with numbers are you? The Rice experiment was horrible. He compared mis hit fades to solidly hit draws. And the pioll on here proves you wrong so not sure why you're using it. You do realize that it's BOTH categories added up against the draw right? It's fade goes further and they both go the same added together against the draw, and the draw is losing by a lot with longer clubs.

 

You haven't done a lot of statistic analyses, have you?

 

The middle ground doesn't support either side. The middle ground is indicative of the spread across the respondents. A large middle ground indicates that the spread is small. But it will include respondents who are unable to give a meaningful response - people wh have never hit a good draw, drawers who are unable to hit a solid fade and know it etc. Nevertheless a large middle ground indicates that there are a lot of golfers who experience such a small distance difference that they can't tell which goes farther - albeit with uncertainty of how large that group really is. Small middle ground and large groups on each side indicates large individual differences.

 

Bottom line: If there are more draw votes than fade votes, the draw generally goes farther. The other votes will indicate how much farther and for how many. Take a statistics class if you disagree.

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......the draw generally goes farther.

 

 

Nowhere did anyone say that wasn't true. I happen to agree.

 

The debate is its not universal and not always true.

All "tips" are welcome. Instruction not desired. 
 

 

The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

BERTRAND RUSSELL

 

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You're not very good with numbers are you? The Rice experiment was horrible. He compared mis hit fades to solidly hit draws. And the pioll on here proves you wrong so not sure why you're using it. You do realize that it's BOTH categories added up against the draw right? It's fade goes further and they both go the same added together against the draw, and the draw is losing by a lot with longer clubs.

 

You haven't done a lot of statistic analyses, have you?

 

The middle ground doesn't support either side. The middle ground is indicative of the spread across the respondents. A large middle ground indicates that the spread is small. But it will include respondents who are unable to give a meaningful response - people wh have never hit a good draw, drawers who are unable to hit a solid fade and know it etc. Nevertheless a large middle ground indicates that there are a lot of golfers who experience such a small distance difference that they can't tell which goes farther - albeit with uncertainty of how large that group really is. Small middle ground and large groups on each side indicates large individual differences.

 

Bottom line: If there are more draw votes than fade votes, the draw generally goes farther. The other votes will indicate how much farther and for how many. Take a statistics class if you disagree.

 

I've taken plenty of statistics classes. Probably far more and far make recently than you have. Who said a draw doesn't generally go further? Nobody has argued a fade goes further. The argument is that they go essentially the same distance, which is exactly what the large "middle" would prove. And hat for a decent percentage of golfers a fade will go further than a draw with longer clubs. Your argument was that a draw goes further for all but a tiny population. Your statement was essentially that everyone within 2 standard deviations would hit a draw further. Which isn't close to true. Since your argument is that all solid draws would theoretically go further you have to have more vote than the ones who say it's the same AND that fade goes longer. The fact it's even close to the same number who think a fade goes longer than a draw proves you wrong. The large middle literally proves you wrong and the fade contingent being almost as big as draw contingent with long clubs further proves you wrong.

 

You're trying to change the argument. The argument was never a fade is longer than a draw. It was that it CAN be and that for anyone hitting them solid they go essentially the same distance. You're trying to love the goalpost to fit the data your getting.

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Plenty of statistics classes..... Hmmm. I'm not even sure that soon to be statisticians do that. Those I know who have gone deep on the subject are mathematicians.

 

OP's question was: why does a draw go farther than a fade. Look in the mirror if you think the argument has been changed. When have you responded to the original topic? when did you acknowledge that a draw actually goes farther? When did you try to explain why? All I've seen is arguments that a fade, under certain circumstances (chosen by you) goes at least as far, and sometimes farther than a draw.

 

If you're half as good as you claim in the statistical department you can give us a preliminary interpretation of confidence inntervals, statistical significance level etc.

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Plenty of statistics classes..... Hmmm. I'm not even sure that soon to be statisticians do that. Those I know who have gone deep on the subject are mathematicians.

 

OP's question was: why does a draw go farther than a fade. Look in the mirror if you think the argument has been changed. When have you responded to the original topic? when did you acknowledge that a draw actually goes farther? When did you try to explain why? All I've seen is arguments that a fade, under certain circumstances (chosen by you) goes at least as far, and sometimes farther than a draw.

 

If you're half as good as you claim in the statistical department you can give us a preliminary interpretation of confidence inntervals, statistical significance level etc.

 

You must be fun at parties.

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Plenty of statistics classes..... Hmmm. I'm not even sure that soon to be statisticians do that. Those I know who have gone deep on the subject are mathematicians.

 

OP's question was: why does a draw go farther than a fade. Look in the mirror if you think the argument has been changed. When have you responded to the original topic? when did you acknowledge that a draw actually goes farther? When did you try to explain why? All I've seen is arguments that a fade, under certain circumstances (chosen by you) goes at least as far, and sometimes farther than a draw.

 

If you're half as good as you claim in the statistical department you can give us a preliminary interpretation of confidence inntervals, statistical significance level etc.

 

Again you're tying to deflect. The original question is why does a draw go further than a fade. And the answer is it doesn't go longer than a fade. It sometimes goes longer than a fade, often goes the same distance, and for many with longer clubs a fade actually goes further. Your argument is a draw goes further. Which means if it goes the same distance or shorter than a fade you lose. It means you poll must show the draw being chose more than BOTH the same distance or fade COMBINED. It's basic logic and not even statistics.

 

 

A draw DOESN'T go further. It CAN go further. There is a massive difference. A draw CAN go further just like a FADE can go further. The original question was if everything was equal why does a draw go further? And the correct answer to that quest is it DOESNT. If only the spin axis is changed and is the same amount in opposite directions the ball goes the same distance. Period.

 

My argument has always been and is that all else being equal they go the same distance. And if all else isn't equal that many players need the added spin and a fade will go longer for a large percentage of the population with longer clubs. A large percentage who need less spin will hit a draw further when all else ISN'T equal. But if everything else is equal there is zero difference in distance. That's what I've said the entire time. My answer has a always been it's the same or if you change variable that "it depends". Your the one who stated that for all but a insignificant portion of people a draw will always go further. And to that you are 100% wrong.

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The thread should have ended long ago.

 

A collision with the same launch conditions (and there are a bunch of them), except for reversed path and face-to-path will travel the same distance. Period. fini.

 

Those same, but reversed collision conditions are rare.

 

Players will usually have a pattern bias in their swing that creates more optimal launch conditions one way or the other. That results in a distance results bias that is farther with one pattern.

 

Good instructors will guide a student to the pattern that works best for their body, their swing direction bias, their grip, their ROM bias, their tilts and angles, etc.

 

Just because a draw may go farther for one person, doesn't mean it's the shot of choice for the next person.

 

I agree completely that chasing a draw just for style points, or advocating it as the optimal shot for everyone, has ruined many a player.

 

Imagine the look on the faces of Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Lee Trevino, Greg Norman, Freddy Couples in his prime, Bubba Watson, JB Holmes, Dustin Johnson, et al when being lectured to that the draw goes farther... so they should do that.

bought out by private equity.

capitalization, grammar and reasoning slashed as a cost reduction.

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Plenty of statistics classes..... Hmmm. I'm not even sure that soon to be statisticians do that. Those I know who have gone deep on the subject are mathematicians.

 

OP's question was: why does a draw go farther than a fade. Look in the mirror if you think the argument has been changed. When have you responded to the original topic? when did you acknowledge that a draw actually goes farther? When did you try to explain why? All I've seen is arguments that a fade, under certain circumstances (chosen by you) goes at least as far, and sometimes farther than a draw.

 

If you're half as good as you claim in the statistical department you can give us a preliminary interpretation of confidence inntervals, statistical significance level etc.

The OP actually said, "I can't figure out why a draw would go longer than a fade all things being equal."

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There are push draw, pull fade, push fade, pull draw.

I guess push draw and pull fade (generally) travel similar distance.

I guess push fade is (generally) shorter than pull draw because of differences in dynamic loft.

Just simple reasoning with D-plane.

 

disagree. pull fade is generally shorter than push fade. "power fades" are push fades

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There are push draw, pull fade, push fade, pull draw.

I guess push draw and pull fade (generally) travel similar distance.

I guess push fade is (generally) shorter than pull draw because of differences in dynamic loft.

Just simple reasoning with D-plane.

 

disagree. pull fade is generally shorter than push fade. "power fades" are push fades

 

They are? I don't know how to hit a power fade and can barely fade the ball at all without a great deal of effort. I have always assumed a "power fade" was almost straight, starting just barely left of the target and turning slightly right. While I'll be the first to admit I don't know anything about a power fade, I would guess that the lowest variance between face to target and path would hit the ball the most efficiently ie. higher smash factor.

 

What is a power fade and how does it work?

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There are push draw, pull fade, push fade, pull draw.

I guess push draw and pull fade (generally) travel similar distance.

I guess push fade is (generally) shorter than pull draw because of differences in dynamic loft.

Just simple reasoning with D-plane.

 

disagree. pull fade is generally shorter than push fade. "power fades" are push fades

 

I did not state the differences of pull fade and push fade in the above post for you to disagree though.

Anyway, let see.

A pull fade is generally an error in club head direction, say slightly left of target, with a club face square to target, OK?

A push fade is generally an error in club face slightly open to target. with the club head direction straight to target, OK?

Then if the club head velocity contributes greater to the distance traveled, a velocity straight to the target should drive the ball further.

I can agree with you.

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You're not very good with numbers are you? The Rice experiment was horrible. He compared mis hit fades to solidly hit draws. And the pioll on here proves you wrong so not sure why you're using it. You do realize that it's BOTH categories added up against the draw right? It's fade goes further and they both go the same added together against the draw, and the draw is losing by a lot with longer clubs.

 

You haven't done a lot of statistic analyses, have you?

 

The middle ground doesn't support either side. The middle ground is indicative of the spread across the respondents. A large middle ground indicates that the spread is small. But it will include respondents who are unable to give a meaningful response - people wh have never hit a good draw, drawers who are unable to hit a solid fade and know it etc. Nevertheless a large middle ground indicates that there are a lot of golfers who experience such a small distance difference that they can't tell which goes farther - albeit with uncertainty of how large that group really is. Small middle ground and large groups on each side indicates large individual differences.

 

Bottom line: If there are more draw votes than fade votes, the draw generally goes farther. The other votes will indicate how much farther and for how many. Take a statistics class if you disagree.

You're not very good with numbers are you? The Rice experiment was horrible. He compared mis hit fades to solidly hit draws. And the pioll on here proves you wrong so not sure why you're using it. You do realize that it's BOTH categories added up against the draw right? It's fade goes further and they both go the same added together against the draw, and the draw is losing by a lot with longer clubs.

 

You haven't done a lot of statistic analyses, have you?

 

The middle ground doesn't support either side. The middle ground is indicative of the spread across the respondents. A large middle ground indicates that the spread is small. But it will include respondents who are unable to give a meaningful response - people wh have never hit a good draw, drawers who are unable to hit a solid fade and know it etc. Nevertheless a large middle ground indicates that there are a lot of golfers who experience such a small distance difference that they can't tell which goes farther - albeit with uncertainty of how large that group really is. Small middle ground and large groups on each side indicates large individual differences.

 

Bottom line: If there are more draw votes than fade votes, the draw generally goes farther. The other votes will indicate how much farther and for how many. Take a statistics class if you disagree.

 

I think you need to redo your poll. I voted neutral because I believe that for me a well hit draw and a well hit fade generally go the same distance. For me, a draw does not go farther every time. Admittedly, I am not very good at fading the ball and only play a fade when forced. I have swings on my Flightscope that show both shots with similar clubhead speed, spin rates, launch angles and smash factors going the same distance.

 

If you intended that a vote as neutral essentially doesn't count, then your poll is very flawed due to poor instructions.

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