Posting Scores & Handicaps

[Under2hours]

I understand that if you post hole by hole, your score will be adjusted based on your HC. However if you just post scores, can't you easily inflate your HC if you are one of those wildly inconsistent golfers as likely to post pars and birdies as doubles and worse.

 

Golfer 1: Posts 18 bogeys for a 90

Golfer 2: +6 on 14 holes and +12 on 4 holes also a 90

 

They have the HC, do they not when posting just scores?

 

This again comes back to then there is a tournament and Golfer 2 bears down and is the one shooting a 76, whereas Golfer 1, does not have these wide fluctuations in his/her game.

 

Also Golfer 2 is the one doing well in stablefords, skins and team games.

 

Again am I missing something?

[rawdog]

Not sure I understand what you're asking. The ESC score helps limit ballooning of handicaps by setting a max score you can post on a given hole. This way your handicap is more representative of what you're capable of.

 

https://www.usga.org...er.asp?FAQidx=9

 

Q. What is the current method for adjusting my hole scores under Equitable Stroke Control (ESC)?

A. ESC is an adjustment of individual hole scores (for handicap purposes) in order to make handicaps more representative of a player's potential ability. ESC is applied after the round and is only used when the actual score or the most likely score exceeds a player’s maximum number. ESC sets a limit to the number of strokes a player can take on a hole depending on Course Handicap™. Apply ESC to all scores, including tournament scores. Below is the maximum number a player can take:

Course Handicap Maximum Number

9 or less Double Bogey

10-19 7

20-29 8

30-39 9

40 and above 10

Please visit Section 4-3 of the USGA Handicap System manual for further reference.

[SNIPERBBB]

If your posting your total score, you must adjust your scores down before you enter the score.

 

In your scenario, depending on the cap of golfer 2 may not have to adjust any of their holes down.

[HitEmTrue]

Also Golfer 2 is the one doing well in stablefords, skins and team games.

 

Golfer 2 should have a *lower* posted score for that round, because of ESC. If both golfers played 20 identical rounds (all of them with a score of 90), golfer 2 would have the lower index.

 

Does ESC completely smooth out the situation? Probably not, but it helps.

[Under2hours]

Also Golfer 2 is the one doing well in stablefords, skins and team games.

 

Golfer 2 should have a *lower* posted score for that round, because of ESC. If both golfers played 20 identical rounds (all of them with a score of 90), golfer 2 would have the lower index.

 

Does ESC completely smooth out the situation? Probably not, but it helps.

But why would Golfer 2 do that? I guess I'm asking as a sandbagger he is posting a legitimate 90, not cheating at all, but come tournament time, those 3-4 holes don't happen.

 

I use my 90 the other day as an example. On 18 I hit a bad second and my third just catches the lip of the bunker and by then the round is over, as doomed in all likelhood to a 6 or worse. I then proceed to hit #4 over the green and then chunk my shot from the hill and leave it on the hill. My round while okay at best will really stink with an 8-9 on 18, but without escape it is a 90.

 

Now I use this example with the good player, hits it long, has the ability to hit par 5's in two, however is erratic with the driver and also hits loose shots, which results in 2-4 blow-up holes a round. On 14 holes he is probably better then me, but over 18 we both score the same.

 

He is more likely to post that very good round, while I'll post very similar scores, seldom blowing up, but again can not going low.....

[SNIPERBBB]

What is golfer 2's handicap?

[rawdog]

What is golfer 2's handicap?

 

He's assuming they are the same, I believe.

 

A big thing to note in this discussion, is that handicap only uses your 10 best of your last 20 rounds.

 

So this extreme example might clear some things up.

 

Player A is your consistent guy. He shoots 90 every time. Every time. So the average of all his rounds is 90. The average of his his ten best rounds is also 90.

 

Player B is your inconsistent guy. He shoots 80 half the time and 100 half the time. So the average of all his rounds is 90. The average of his his ten best rounds, however is 80.

 

Same average round for both players, but the rounds being factored into Player B's handicap are 10 shots better.

 

Throwing out poor rounds is along the same vein of limiting scores on a particular hole - it keeps your handicap from blowing up due to a bad stretch of play.

 

You say "He is more likely to post that very good round, while I'll post very similar scores, seldom blowing up, but again can not going low....."

 

Yep, he has more potential to play well, and the handicap system is designed to identify your potential.

[Shilgy]

OP-when using the GHIN system which, dare I say, most golfers in the US with a valid handicap use they post a total score. I have heard of a system that uses a hole by hole posting method but I am not familiar with it. Do you post your actual score and it adjusts your esc automatically based on your current handicap? Or are you supposed to enter your scores adjusted for esc as detailed by Rawdog above?

Anyone can find a way to sandbag-no question. But that is part of what peer review is for. If I played with you and noticed you posted a 90 when I know that score should have been adjusted for esc I would point it out to you and make certain it got adjusted before the next handicap change.

[mark m]

I just want to point out that you can have 2 players with the same handicap index and they may be very different. The pope of slope covers this well on his site. One he calls a "steady eddie" who is consistent. (Let's say he makes 18 bogeys per round.) Then you have a "wild willie" type who is inconsistent and may make gross birdies and pars, but makes lots of doubles as well.

 

Now, depending on the tournament formats, the wild willie will probably win more money over the course of the season. He can be a good partner or teammate in best-balls as (hopefully) you will not be using his poor scores for the team score. He will have a better chance at skins.

 

http://popeofslope.com/guidelines/picking.html

[KevCarter]

OP-when using the GHIN system which, dare I say, most golfers in the US with a valid handicap use they post a total score. I have heard of a system that uses a hole by hole posting method but I am not familiar with it. Do you post your actual score and it adjusts your esc automatically based on your current handicap? Or are you supposed to enter your scores adjusted for esc as detailed by Rawdog above?

Anyone can find a way to sandbag-no question. But that is part of what peer review is for. If I played with you and noticed you posted a 90 when I know that score should have been adjusted for esc I would point it out to you and make certain it got adjusted before the next handicap change.

 

Shilgy,

 

Applicable to those posting there scores via GHIN at your club's computer. There is a preference the Pro/Handicap Committee can set in the software forcing the entry of hole by hole scores. I've not seen it used as it slows things down a bit for score entry. Unless it's changed in the last 5 years, which is always a possibility...

[HitEmTrue]

Also Golfer 2 is the one doing well in stablefords, skins and team games.

 

Golfer 2 should have a *lower* posted score for that round, because of ESC. If both golfers played 20 identical rounds (all of them with a score of 90), golfer 2 would have the lower index.

 

Does ESC completely smooth out the situation? Probably not, but it helps.

But why would Golfer 2 do that? I guess I'm asking as a sandbagger he is posting a legitimate 90, not cheating at all, but come tournament time, those 3-4 holes don't happen.

 

Why would golfer 2 do what? Have some bad holes?

 

This weekend I had some *awful* holes in route to shooting 92. Two 9's on the card, and some double bogies. I certainly wasn't sandbagging, as I don't even have a handicap index.

 

I reloaded and hit provisionals quickly on the lost balls. Didn't even have to look for them. If they didn't kick out into the fairway, finding and playing them would have been quite unlikely due to the trees and terrain.

[one putz]

if golfer 2 exceeds his maximum allowable score on any hole he is required to adjust his score before posting. it my very well be a legit 90 with a few triples or quads, but he is still required by rule to adjust his score. if he is not doing this then he is indeed sandbagging, ie cheating.

[Shilgy]

Also Golfer 2 is the one doing well in stablefords, skins and team games.

 

Golfer 2 should have a *lower* posted score for that round, because of ESC. If both golfers played 20 identical rounds (all of them with a score of 90), golfer 2 would have the lower index.

 

Does ESC completely smooth out the situation? Probably not, but it helps.

But why would Golfer 2 do that? I guess I'm asking as a sandbagger he is posting a legitimate 90, not cheating at all, but come tournament time, those 3-4 holes don't happen.

 

I use my 90 the other day as an example. On 18 I hit a bad second and my third just catches the lip of the bunker and by then the round is over, as doomed in all likelhood to a 6 or worse. I then proceed to hit #4 over the green and then chunk my shot from the hill and leave it on the hill. My round while okay at best will really stink with an 8-9 on 18, but without escape it is a 90.

 

Now I use this example with the good player, hits it long, has the ability to hit par 5's in two, however is erratic with the driver and also hits loose shots, which results in 2-4 blow-up holes a round. On 14 holes he is probably better then me, but over 18 we both score the same.

 

He is more likely to post that very good round, while I'll post very similar scores, seldom blowing up, but again can not going low.....

Golfer 2 is not posting a legit 90 if he is posting a score with holes above his esc mandated maximums. That is the point.

[Shilgy]

OP-when using the GHIN system which, dare I say, most golfers in the US with a valid handicap use they post a total score. I have heard of a system that uses a hole by hole posting method but I am not familiar with it. Do you post your actual score and it adjusts your esc automatically based on your current handicap? Or are you supposed to enter your scores adjusted for esc as detailed by Rawdog above?

Anyone can find a way to sandbag-no question. But that is part of what peer review is for. If I played with you and noticed you posted a 90 when I know that score should have been adjusted for esc I would point it out to you and make certain it got adjusted before the next handicap change.

 

Shilgy,

 

Applicable to those posting there scores via GHIN at your club's computer. There is a preference the Pro/Handicap Committee can set in the software forcing the entry of hole by hole scores. I've not seen it used as it slows things down a bit for score entry. Unless it's changed in the last 5 years, which is always a possibility...

I did not know that. Would be helpful if you had many players that do not understand the rules for ESC. The computer calculates if their are any ESC deductions then? I still miss the old esc rules. They were actually more penal and prevented abnormal scores but no one seemed to understand them.

[KevCarter]

OP-when using the GHIN system which, dare I say, most golfers in the US with a valid handicap use they post a total score. I have heard of a system that uses a hole by hole posting method but I am not familiar with it. Do you post your actual score and it adjusts your esc automatically based on your current handicap? Or are you supposed to enter your scores adjusted for esc as detailed by Rawdog above?

Anyone can find a way to sandbag-no question. But that is part of what peer review is for. If I played with you and noticed you posted a 90 when I know that score should have been adjusted for esc I would point it out to you and make certain it got adjusted before the next handicap change.

 

Shilgy,

 

Applicable to those posting there scores via GHIN at your club's computer. There is a preference the Pro/Handicap Committee can set in the software forcing the entry of hole by hole scores. I've not seen it used as it slows things down a bit for score entry. Unless it's changed in the last 5 years, which is always a possibility...

I did not know that. Would be helpful if you had many players that do not understand the rules for ESC. The computer calculates if their are any ESC deductions then? I still miss the old esc rules. They were actually more penal and prevented abnormal scores but no one seemed to understand them.

 

Correct, it computed the ESC score...

[Shilgy]

OP-when using the GHIN system which, dare I say, most golfers in the US with a valid handicap use they post a total score. I have heard of a system that uses a hole by hole posting method but I am not familiar with it. Do you post your actual score and it adjusts your esc automatically based on your current handicap? Or are you supposed to enter your scores adjusted for esc as detailed by Rawdog above?

Anyone can find a way to sandbag-no question. But that is part of what peer review is for. If I played with you and noticed you posted a 90 when I know that score should have been adjusted for esc I would point it out to you and make certain it got adjusted before the next handicap change.

 

Shilgy,

 

Applicable to those posting there scores via GHIN at your club's computer. There is a preference the Pro/Handicap Committee can set in the software forcing the entry of hole by hole scores. I've not seen it used as it slows things down a bit for score entry. Unless it's changed in the last 5 years, which is always a possibility...

I did not know that. Would be helpful if you had many players that do not understand the rules for ESC. The computer calculates if their are any ESC deductions then? I still miss the old esc rules. They were actually more penal and prevented abnormal scores but no one seemed to understand them.

 

Correct, it computed the ESC score...

I like that-certainly more time consuming to post but more accurate-assuming truthful posting but that is already the problem. Would certainly eliminate the issue of some players not using esc properly and eliminate the "oh I guess I added incorrectly" posts.

[KevCarter]

OP-when using the GHIN system which, dare I say, most golfers in the US with a valid handicap use they post a total score. I have heard of a system that uses a hole by hole posting method but I am not familiar with it. Do you post your actual score and it adjusts your esc automatically based on your current handicap? Or are you supposed to enter your scores adjusted for esc as detailed by Rawdog above?

Anyone can find a way to sandbag-no question. But that is part of what peer review is for. If I played with you and noticed you posted a 90 when I know that score should have been adjusted for esc I would point it out to you and make certain it got adjusted before the next handicap change.

 

Shilgy,

 

Applicable to those posting there scores via GHIN at your club's computer. There is a preference the Pro/Handicap Committee can set in the software forcing the entry of hole by hole scores. I've not seen it used as it slows things down a bit for score entry. Unless it's changed in the last 5 years, which is always a possibility...

I did not know that. Would be helpful if you had many players that do not understand the rules for ESC. The computer calculates if their are any ESC deductions then? I still miss the old esc rules. They were actually more penal and prevented abnormal scores but no one seemed to understand them.

 

Correct, it computed the ESC score...

I like that-certainly more time consuming to post but more accurate-assuming truthful posting but that is already the problem. Would certainly eliminate the issue of some players not using esc properly and eliminate the "oh I guess I added incorrectly" posts.

 

I think the problem is that most people post online these days, and that function isn't available online, as far as I know...

[Under2hours]

So my 90 (assuming a 9 on 18) was really an 87? Again had fun and no big deal, but always do question the low tournament or matchplay score.

[Shilgy]

So my 90 (assuming a 9 on 18) was really an 87? Again had fun and no big deal, but always do question the low tournament or matchplay score.

It was really a 90 :) BUT for posting purposes as a 12-14 handicap based on the slope of the course you played your maximum for any hole would be 7 strokes. So if you made a 9 in your 90 you would post an 88.

[Sawgrass]

So my 90 (assuming a 9 on 18) was really an 87? Again had fun and no big deal, but always do question the low tournament or matchplay score.

 

Maybe it's no big deal to you, but your handicap is grossly overstated.

[duffer987]

 

Correct, it computed the ESC score...

I like that-certainly more time consuming to post but more accurate-assuming truthful posting but that is already the problem. Would certainly eliminate the issue of some players not using esc properly and eliminate the "oh I guess I added incorrectly" posts.

 

I think the problem is that most people post online these days, and that function isn't available online, as far as I know...

 

That's it. GHIN system (the one available via the app or online) does let you put your hole by hole stats in afterwards, but not for actually recording of score, just for kicks and running 'reports' afterwards.

[Shilgy]

 

Correct, it computed the ESC score...

I like that-certainly more time consuming to post but more accurate-assuming truthful posting but that is already the problem. Would certainly eliminate the issue of some players not using esc properly and eliminate the "oh I guess I added incorrectly" posts.

 

I think the problem is that most people post online these days, and that function isn't available online, as far as I know...

 

That's it. GHIN system (the one available via the app or online) does let you put your hole by hole stats in afterwards, but not for actually recording of score, just for kicks and running 'reports' afterwards.

Say what? Not on my app I don't believe.

[duffer987]

Correct, it computed the ESC score...

I like that-certainly more time consuming to post but more accurate-assuming truthful posting but that is already the problem. Would certainly eliminate the issue of some players not using esc properly and eliminate the "oh I guess I added incorrectly" posts.

 

I think the problem is that most people post online these days, and that function isn't available online, as far as I know...

 

That's it. GHIN system (the one available via the app or online) does let you put your hole by hole stats in afterwards, but not for actually recording of score, just for kicks and running 'reports' afterwards.

Say what? Not on my app I don't believe.

 

Sorry I did recheck - and yes it is the GHIN website only and not the mobile app.

[SadTrombone]

OP-when using the GHIN system which, dare I say, most golfers in the US with a valid handicap use they post a total score. I have heard of a system that uses a hole by hole posting method but I am not familiar with it.

The system I'm stuck with (through Golf Channel Am Tour) allows for either hole-by-hole or 9- or 18-hole scores to be entered. When you play in an Am Tour event, the score is automatically posted to your index (after adjusting for ESC) and then you have the option of entering hole-by-hole statistics (and you can be as detailed as you'd like) for that round as well.

 

About a month ago, one of my fellow competitors didn't understand why his posted score was lower than his actual score. ESC is really misunderstood...big time. I can still remember my uncle not understanding how it worked. A shame, really.

[duffer987]

OP-when using the GHIN system which, dare I say, most golfers in the US with a valid handicap use they post a total score. I have heard of a system that uses a hole by hole posting method but I am not familiar with it.

The system I'm stuck with (through Golf Channel Am Tour) allows for either hole-by-hole or 9- or 18-hole scores to be entered. When you play in an Am Tour event, the score is automatically posted to your index (after adjusting for ESC) and then you have the option of entering hole-by-hole statistics (and you can be as detailed as you'd like) for that round as well.

 

About a month ago, one of my fellow competitors didn't understand why his posted score was lower than his actual score. ESC is really misunderstood...big time. I can still remember my uncle not understanding how it worked. A shame, really.

 

I'll take your ESC and raise you an index vs handicap ;)

 

I've played with some folks that are 'single digits' who'll pick up or make those 1/2-arsed gimme putt attempts when they are par + 2 for the hole because they're a 9, while either not knowing or being deliberately obtuse to the fact their course handicap on the day is actually 11.

[SadTrombone]

 

I'll take your ESC and raise you an index vs handicap ;)

 

 

Touuuuu-che. Since I don't do the net thing I always forget about that part.

[larrybud]

Also Golfer 2 is the one doing well in stablefords, skins and team games.

 

Golfer 2 should have a *lower* posted score for that round, because of ESC. If both golfers played 20 identical rounds (all of them with a score of 90), golfer 2 would have the lower index.

 

Does ESC completely smooth out the situation? Probably not, but it helps.

But why would Golfer 2 do that? I guess I'm asking as a sandbagger he is posting a legitimate 90, not cheating at all, but come tournament time, those 3-4 holes don't happen.

 

He *SHOULD* and *MUST* do that because that's the rule for posting. Based on your course handicap, you're allowed to take a max # of strokes when on a hole when posting your score.

[2bGood]

Correct, it computed the ESC score...

I like that-certainly more time consuming to post but more accurate-assuming truthful posting but that is already the problem. Would certainly eliminate the issue of some players not using esc properly and eliminate the "oh I guess I added incorrectly" posts.

 

I think the problem is that most people post online these days, and that function isn't available online, as far as I know...

 

That's it. GHIN system (the one available via the app or online) does let you put your hole by hole stats in afterwards, but not for actually recording of score, just for kicks and running 'reports' afterwards.

 

 

The OP is in Canada. The GolfCanada handicap input gives you the option of posting your score hole by hole (and will make the ESC corrections for you) or posting a total score. The Canadian system will even track stats if you like and has an ap to post your scores hole by hole in real time.

 

OP if you post a gross score and do not correct for ESC than you have posted an incorrect score.