Shaft or total club issue

[jls667]

Hey everyone,

 

So I'm fortunate to have easy access to a trackman lately and can finally examine some numbers. However, it's only created more questions for my irons than anything else.

 

I'm a low single digit hcp player with a pretty fast swing speed (roughly 95-100 for a 6iron) without swinging out of my shoes and with complete balance. I've worked on my swing to have a better AOA and plane. Despite having what would seem like optimal numbers, my irons just simply don't give me the distance one would expect.

 

I play Cobra Amp Cell Pro irons with C-taper S+ shafts. With this combo I seem to have, at most, at 1.35 smash factor and is usually only just a shade above 1.3 with my 5 iron. Today, a buddy of mine took my 5 iron and was hitting it just as far as me, with better smash factor, with an 89mph swing speed and positive AOA. Meanwhile I was hitting my 5 iron about 185-190 with a 97mph swing speed and a -2 to -4 AOA, straight with good dispersion. We had the same distance but his numbers appeared to match the total distance far better than mine.

 

My question is, what would cause this if we're both hitting it pure with the same exact ball (ProV1)? I am planning on getting a fitting at club champion soon but I wanted to do some research in advance. Would this be a shaft issue or a total club problem?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Golfrnut]

If you have access to a monitor, please post some kind of numbers. Could be a lack of ball speed, could be bad launch numbers, but ya gotta give us something to work with.

[jls667]

Ball speed is anywhere from 125 to 130. What other numbers would be needed? With a negative AOA and C-tapers I doubt my launch angle is too high but I will get on the trackman tomorrow and can get all necessary numbers then.

[apprenti23]

Where are you hitting it on the face? Launch and spin would help- you may be adding unnecessary loft?

[Redhawk59]

That shaft produces interesting numbers for better players with higher swing speeds. Out of all the fittings I have done with this shaft the spin and launch are fairly high considering it's supposed to do the opposite. What other shaft options have you tried? Have you put these numbers on the normalize/optimizer on trackman to see where your grid numbers relate to optimal?

[Howard_Jones]

Hey everyone,

 

So I'm fortunate to have easy access to a trackman lately and can finally examine some numbers. However, it's only created more questions for my irons than anything else.

 

I'm a low single digit hcp player with a pretty fast swing speed (roughly 95-100 for a 6iron) without swinging out of my shoes and with complete balance. I've worked on my swing to have a better AOA and plane. Despite having what would seem like optimal numbers, my irons just simply don't give me the distance one would expect.

 

I play Cobra Amp Cell Pro irons with C-taper S+ shafts. With this combo I seem to have, at most, at 1.35 smash factor and is usually only just a shade above 1.3 with my 5 iron. Today, a buddy of mine took my 5 iron and was hitting it just as far as me, with better smash factor, with an 89mph swing speed and positive AOA. Meanwhile I was hitting my 5 iron about 185-190 with a 97mph swing speed and a -2 to -4 AOA, straight with good dispersion. We had the same distance but his numbers appeared to match the total distance far better than mine.

 

My question is, what would cause this if we're both hitting it pure with the same exact ball (ProV1)? I am planning on getting a fitting at club champion soon but I wanted to do some research in advance. Would this be a shaft issue or a total club problem?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

A low PTR value is always a impact spot issue, so your friend simply made a better impact to the ball.

You should take a white board pen (dry erase marker), and make a DOT in the ball facing sweet spot at address and try again.

This way you can track your impact spot on the face within 1/8" and let your friend try the same, then compare.

Depending on total weight and balance of your club, you might improve your PTR value by adding a gram or 2 of lead tape to the head, so that should be tried too, to make sure the club as a hole is as good as can be for you and your swing.

[jls667]

Thanks for all the input. I do appreciate it. Ill be hitting the trackman again today and will try what you have suggested and get back to ya with the other numbers. Thanks again.

[jls667]

Alright so here are my numbers. They're all averages from at least 15 good swings...I removed any bad strikes but I honestly swung well today so there wasn't many of those. Anyway...here's what I got:

 

5 Iron:

Club speed: 94.8

AOA: -2.7

Club path: -2.4

Face to path: 1.1

Smash factor: 1.34

Ball speed: 126.9

Launch angle: 16.8

Spin rate: 5811

Carry: 180.9

 

6 Iron:

Club speed: 94.4

AOA: -3.3

Club path: -1.6

Face to path: 1.8

Smash factor: 1.32

Ball speed: 124.9

Launch angle: 17.8

Spin rate: 6392

Carry: 174.6

 

8 Iron:

Club speed: 91.2

AOA: -5.7

Club path: -0.1

Face to path: 0.3

Smash factor: 1.24

Ball speed: 113.5

Launch angle: 22.1

Spin rate: 9385

Carry: 148.9

 

9 Iron:

Club speed: 88.9

AOA: -7.1

Club path: 0.5

Face to path: -1.2

Smash factor: 1.22

Ball speed: 108.2

Launch angle: 22.3

Spin rate: 9636

Carry: 141.3

 

So if anyone can help me make sense of these numbers, I would greatly appreciate it. My guess right now is that the C-taper S+ simply isn't stiff enough for me but some of you probably know better.

 

Unfortunately, I couldn't figure out the optimizer function that shows the bars and where you fall within that range and didn't have a dry erase marker to mark the balls.

 

Thanks again everyone.

[drumdude96]

Your distance gapping sure doesn't look very good, I can say that much. Have you had your lofts checked? 5-6 and 8-9 gaps are way too close.

[jls667]

Last time they were checked was about a year ago but I still had similar issues going on back then.

[grochol17]

Alright so here are my numbers. They're all averages from at least 15 good swings...I removed any bad strikes but I honestly swung well today so there wasn't many of those. Anyway...here's what I got:

 

5 Iron:

Club speed: 94.8

AOA: -2.7

Club path: -2.4

Face to path: 1.1

Smash factor: 1.34

Ball speed: 126.9

Launch angle: 16.8

Spin rate: 5811

Carry: 180.9

 

From a trackman newsletter, the PGA tour averages for the 5 iron is:

 

94 mph clubhead speed

-3.7* attack angle

132 mph ball speed

1.41 smash

12.1* launch angle

5361 rpm spin

194 carry

 

Hopefully a fitter will chime in here, but my guess is the fact that your smash factor and ball speed are low and your launch angle is high is the result of less than ideal contact... maybe you're catching it high on the face?

[Howard_Jones]

Alright so here are my numbers. They're all averages from at least 15 good swings...I removed any bad strikes but I honestly swung well today so there wasn't many of those. Anyway...here's what I got:

 

5 Iron:

Club speed: 94.8

AOA: -2.7

Club path: -2.4

Face to path: 1.1

Smash factor: 1.34

Ball speed: 126.9

Launch angle: 16.8

Spin rate: 5811

Carry: 180.9

 

6 Iron:

Club speed: 94.4

AOA: -3.3

Club path: -1.6

Face to path: 1.8

Smash factor: 1.32

Ball speed: 124.9

Launch angle: 17.8

Spin rate: 6392

Carry: 174.6

 

8 Iron:

Club speed: 91.2

AOA: -5.7

Club path: -0.1

Face to path: 0.3

Smash factor: 1.24

Ball speed: 113.5

Launch angle: 22.1

Spin rate: 9385

Carry: 148.9

 

9 Iron:

Club speed: 88.9

AOA: -7.1

Club path: 0.5

Face to path: -1.2

Smash factor: 1.22

Ball speed: 108.2

Launch angle: 22.3

Spin rate: 9636

Carry: 141.3

 

So if anyone can help me make sense of these numbers, I would greatly appreciate it. My guess right now is that the C-taper S+ simply isn't stiff enough for me but some of you probably know better.

 

Unfortunately, I couldn't figure out the optimizer function that shows the bars and where you fall within that range and didn't have a dry erase marker to mark the balls.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

Without a impact spot its hard to judge, but when we look at your launch angle, its very high for that club speed, so it seems like you have a impact very high on the face, and that might cause a high launch with higher spin, but lower PTR value.

 

Just compare your numbers with those for PGA average,

http://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/

[jls667]

So maybe instead of forking out money for new irons or shafts, maybe I just need a L/L/L fitting and adjustment?

[apprenti23]

Again- where are you hitting it on the face? Heel or toe? Those can't be center face strikes. A smidge high spin, but you hit a fade right?

[jls667]

Dispersion is pretty even between slight draws and fades, if its not straight. Overall I tend to hit it pretty straight.

 

As for contact, those that I included in the numbers felt like I hit them dead center. That said most poor contact shots are towards the toe.

 

If anything I'm wondering if my swing is just too steep and I'm just hitting too high on the face but in the center...causing me to think I killed it when I really didn't.

[pearsonified]

I have a swing speed in the same ballpark, but my current numbers are significantly better. When I was posting numbers like this, I was hitting everything (way) off the toe.

 

At this point, my contact is closer to the center of the face, and I routinely post a 1.41 smash factor with a 30º 6-iron at about 5600rpm and 19º launch.

 

In other words, you are hitting everything off the toe, and the Amp Cell Pros are extremely penal on strikes in this area of the club face.

[Golfrnut]

I'm with Howard here. Impact location or perhaps your spin loft is a bit higher, reducing the compression/ball speed a little bit. Launch is a little higher than one would probably expect.

[jls667]

https://www.Not allowed because of spam.com/cobra-amp-cell-pro-irons/

 

Found this review of the clubs and in there he mentions that you will easily notice poorly hit shots except for those hit slightly high in the face which will make you think you hit the sweet spot only it won't go as far.

 

I wonder if that's my answer right there. Moral of the story would be to work on that....and maybe move to a more forgiving iron.

[Golfrnut]

Stop by the store and grab some foot spray powder and spray the face of a couple of clubs. Don't worry about monitor results with it, just make note of the impact locations and the consistency over a few shots.

[prorobo]

Stop by the store and grab some foot spray powder and spray the face of a couple of clubs. Don't worry about monitor results with it, just make note of the impact locations and the consistency over a few shots.

 

You could also take some blue painters tape and apply a piece to the face to see where you're striking it.

[Howard_Jones]

https://www.mygolfsp...cell-pro-irons/

 

Found this review of the clubs and in there he mentions that you will easily notice poorly hit shots except for those hit slightly high in the face which will make you think you hit the sweet spot only it won't go as far.

 

I wonder if that's my answer right there. Moral of the story would be to work on that....and maybe move to a more forgiving iron.

 

It might be the way to go, but use a buck and buy that Whiteboard pen (dry erase marker), and if you have access to a printer, you can combine the test with impact labels on the face to check out lie angles.

 

Lie angles DO make a difference to where we make impact, so in your case, IF lie angles seems to be off (to upright), then a lie angle tweak MIGHT be all it takes to move impact back into the center of the face, so dont give up yet, it might be those small devils playing games with you here.

 

Another WRX member helped out to make this face labels fit a standard Avery label sheet so you can print them at home

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1355102-open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/page__st__30#entry13852174

 

 

In your case, reading this extra post might be helpful, its about the first label i started from, its really to advanced for most since we have to many parameters who might be the reason for heel or toe shots, not only lie angles, but to be able to see how it works IF it is lie angle, this one explains it.

I do NOT suggest for anyone to try THIS label, it messes with both length and lie angle at the same time, so it will mislead more than it helps unless we are 100% sure about what we are dealing with, and thats why i dropped that label later and found another way to do it with lie angle only, but for you it might be good reading to better understand how it all works, if we exclude your swing from the equation.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1355102-open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/page__st__30#entry13850086

[endurancechiro]

I'm no trackman numbers guru, but that smash factor/ball speed looks like a problem to me. It sounds like an issue of hitting off the sweet spot, likely high on the face or slightly toward the toe.

 

I compared your 8i numbers to the ones I had done yesterday. Your SS is 10 mph higher than mine, but you only get 4 yds more of carry. Our other numbers are similar, but your smash and ball speed is lower than expected.

 

I would definitely get some impact labels or spray something on the face to hit some balls and check your impact point. Also, I would get your lie angles checked to make sure you aren't playing the wrong lie leading to less than optimal strikes.

[gsrjc]

I'm no trackman numbers guru, but that smash factor/ball speed looks like a problem to me. It sounds like an issue of hitting off the sweet spot, likely high on the face or slightly toward the toe.

 

I compared your 8i numbers to the ones I had done yesterday. Your SS is 10 mph higher than mine, but you only get 4 yds more of carry. Our other numbers are similar, but your smash and ball speed is lower than expected.

 

I would definitely get some impact labels or spray something on the face to hit some balls and check your impact point. Also, I would get your lie angles checked to make sure you aren't playing the wrong lie leading to less than optimal strikes.

 

Agreed here. I swing slower than you with my 6 iron and i carry it 185 on trackman. I'd recommend getting fit because you might just need a slight adjustment.

[grochol17]

Howard - how high (or low) on the face of an iron should we be making contact? I know it probably varies a bit depending on the iron design, but is there a particular groove on which impact should be centered? I know Johnny Miller likes to talk about hitting it on the third groove (or maybe he says second), but I never know whether what comes out of his mouth is real or just hot air.

[prorobo]

[jls667]

Hey guys. Just a follow up but here's a picture from the dry erase marker test. My guess is I need to go a degree or so flat. The marks that were most pointed towards the toe were with about 97mph swing and felt like I hit it on the screws only to have a 1.30 smash, 18.6 launch anhle and a 180yard 6 iron.

 

What do you guys think?

[Howard_Jones]

Try 1* flat from where ever that club is, and try again.