Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[CallawayLefty]

Safely over 1,250 posts now. What's the under/over on when this thing dies? It's like the Grey's Anatomy of golfwrx. The LPGA itself might end before this thread does.

[BrooklynGolfer]

4 handicap has no chance, ever. It's the short game and in particular the putting that would eat them alive.

[Bad9]

Safely over 1,250 posts now. What's the under/over on when this thing dies? It's like the Grey's Anatomy of golfwrx. The LPGA itself might end before this thread does.

 

Yeah but it's over almost 7yrs. That's less than 200 per year. The Ksig thread gets that a day. :cheesy:

[CallawayLefty]

4 handicap has no chance, ever. It's the short game and in particular the putting that would eat them alive.

 

Maybe you didn't know that most 4 handicaps shoot in the high 60s and low 70s as soon as you move them inside 6,500 yards. And those LPGA courses are really just glorified executive courses. You know they always play them like 700 yards closer than whatever the scorecard says.

[CallawayLefty]

Honestly, I think the true answer here lies in how many 9 to 3s the 4 handicap does and how shallow their downswing is.

[Obee]

The funny thing is that this is truly one of the least contentious golf boards out there...

 

Haha

 

Well, except you, of course....

[DavePelz4]

The funny thing is that this is truly one of the least contentious golf boards out there...

 

Haha

 

Well, except you, of course....

 

Obee...you had a helluva 2016 and played some of your best golf recently. How would you do against a middle of the road LPGA player? Considering some of the competitors you've faced lately, there's no intimidation factor. What say you?

[deadsolid...shank]

Safely over 1,250 posts now. What's the under/over on when this thing dies? It's like the Grey's Anatomy of golfwrx. The LPGA itself might end before this thread does.

 

Guess that means it's a good thread then.

[Obee]

The funny thing is that this is truly one of the least contentious golf boards out there...

 

Haha

 

Well, except you, of course....

 

Obee...you had a helluva 2016 and played some of your best golf recently. How would you do against a middle of the road LPGA player? Considering some of the competitors you've faced lately, there's no intimidation factor. What say you?

 

Recently played a woman ranked between 80 and 100 on the Rolex world ranking. She played one tee up from us at about 6450ish and we played 6900ish. She shot 71 to my 73. Course was playing tough and tournament ready with very firm greens.

 

If we play 100 times from the same tees, it's pretty close, though I like my odds. I'd give me a 60/40 edge.

[Shilgy]

The funny thing is that this is truly one of the least contentious golf boards out there...

 

Haha

 

Well, except you, of course....

 

Obee...you had a helluva 2016 and played some of your best golf recently. How would you do against a middle of the road LPGA player? Considering some of the competitors you've faced lately, there's no intimidation factor. What say you?

 

Recently played a woman ranked between 80 and 100 on the Rolex world ranking. She played one tee up from us at about 6450ish and we played 6900ish. She shot 71 to my 73. Course was playing tough and tournament ready with very firm greens.

 

If we play 100 times from the same tees, it's pretty close, though I like my odds. I'd give me a 60/40 edge.

Sounds like a good match. I am guessing she would say the same-60/40 in her favor. :) So it would likely be very 50/50.

[juliette91]

The funny thing is that this is truly one of the least contentious golf boards out there...

 

Haha

 

Well, except you, of course....

 

Obee...you had a helluva 2016 and played some of your best golf recently. How would you do against a middle of the road LPGA player? Considering some of the competitors you've faced lately, there's no intimidation factor. What say you?

 

Recently played a woman ranked between 80 and 100 on the Rolex world ranking. She played one tee up from us at about 6450ish and we played 6900ish. She shot 71 to my 73. Course was playing tough and tournament ready with very firm greens.

 

If we play 100 times from the same tees, it's pretty close, though I like my odds. I'd give me a 60/40 edge.

 

Obee, I do not know you like some others apparently do on this discussion. I take it you are not a 4 handicap golfer?

[nikegal]

willgolf4food: Sounds like a made up story. Very few female college players could beat a scratch player, especially on his own course. I have played with a number of the female players from UNM and while very good I doubt that any could SMOKE our club champion. None could match any of our top three players for distance off the tee. Your club champion must really suck for a scratch player, especially when he is on a shorter tee.

This isn't a safe space. You can't share anything here.

No, it definitely is not a "safe place," and you can share, however it is at your own risk, lol. It's a lot like most Players' tables at most clubs and courses, at least the ones I've sat at(yes, occasionally I get a seat if it's not the Men's Grille at a club, lol), it's just hard to show emotions in this medium and things tend to be taken literally(well, not suck, hahaha). They're real good guys here WG, and this board really is much more civil than many, especially for its size. they are just skeptical when a story pushes the boundaries. The same skepticism would be shown to you if you sat down at a Players' table with the same story(yes, it does make a difference who's sitting at the table). Some have an edge to them however it was hardly something worth taking your clubs and going home over. You seem like a real nice guy and I do hope that you'll reconsider. Have a nice day :) Maddie

[Peanut191]

Handicap is listed as +1 under his(Obee's) avatar.

[juliette91]

In her August "Ask Stina" column, Senior Editor Stina Sternberg responded to the question of whether a 4-handicap male player could outplay an LPGA pro. A reader had a friend who thought he could. Stina called the man "delusional." "As a 4-handicapper, he'd get so badly beaten by any of the LPGA's 152 players (even those with nonexempt status) that he'd have a tough time getting back up." The question, and Stina's response, generated a lot of (mostly male) mail.

 

Dear Stina,

I am glad the viewer listed a 4-handicapper in the question because if you go to a 2-handicapper and provide him with the conditions the ladies play on he will be a scratch or better. I would take him over two-thirds of the field at most ladies tournaments, maybe more if played from the tips. Consider: Watered-down bunkers pristinely raked; rolled greens that are fast and smooth (most good golfers prefer fast greens, but the course can't keep greens alive cut that low all the time). Most good courses have bunkers in front of all par 5s and I don't see that at many women's venues. I will probably go to the Women's U.S. Open at Pinehurst for one day just to see where the ladies play from. I have played that course several times. It can be a challenge if the greens are hard and fast and the tees are back. I've posted a 74 and a few 76's from the men's tees.

Brad

by email

 

 

 

Dear Stina,

Good day. A previous writer said his 4-handicap friend believed he (hitting the ball 300 yards plus) could beat the average LPGA tour pro on 18 holes. I believe it would depend greatly on the course. If course conditions are like those at Congressional or Oakmont for a PGA Tour event I may give the edge to the big hitter. First, because the big hitter can spin the ball and hold the greens and the closer you are to the green the better off you are on such courses. In addition, courses with par 3s in excess of 240 yards (Congressional #2) will not help the average LPGA member as I do not believe they have a club that would hold those greens.

Now, for the dose of reality to the amateur. Amateurs in golf lack the mental aspect (unless they have played a professional sport like Tony Romo or John Elway) and when confronted with playing with a pro would perform in ways foreign to them because of being nervous. Now if I could take Mr. Romo (2) or Elway (1) in the same bet it would be a no brain-er for me as they should triumph given their abilities to perform under pressure and their physical prowess in given situations.

I do agree with you about the percentages in driving, etc., but I also submit that a course set up to PGA Tour standards would also not benefit the average (not the best) LPGA tour pro as it would be tougher than a Women's U.S. Open.

Let me know the time and place this takes place and I will bring my wallet depending on: the course, setup, and who is playing as well as their sports resume.

 

Cheers,

Roger Wiskavitch

by email

 

 

 

Dear Stina,

Not only are you spot on about a 4-handicap player getting waxed by any LPGA pro, but I would say the top AJGA junior girl would kill the guy as well. I have played squash at a very high level for most of my adult life and have played against the top women squash players and when younger, I could kind of hold my own. But I lost to most of them. And squash is a fairly minor unknown game. Guys don't get it: Venus Williams, Dinara Safina would kill all but the top men's college players in tennis. The top women softball pitchers would routinely strike out all but the best men baseball players. I could go on. I am a 8-handicap golfer who took up the game at age 38 and what I have seen is it would take a country club player with at least a +2 to even stand a chance and then not much of one. Being a father of three daughters who all played competetive sports I have seen it. Give me the name of the number 100-ranked LPGA player and I would bet paychecks on her against a 4 on ANY course.

Fred Duboc

by email

 

 

Dear Stina,I want to comment on your recent column in Golf Digest discussing the 4-handicapper that thinks he can beat most LPGA players. Clearly this guy is out of touch. The women of the LPGA, Duramed and college ranks are real athletes’ many of whom maintain a workout schedule equal to that of the best athletes’ in the world regardless of sport or gender. All one needs to do is watch the re-runs of Big Break to see some great women golfers. Kim Welsh and Gerina Mendoza both drive the ball around 300 yards consistently. I’m a 6-handicap and I would never think to play any plus 3 handicapper even-up on any course regardless of length. The big issue here isn’t length or gender. These women are just plain better golfers than a 4- or 6-handicapper. Guys like “Mister 4-handicap” give the rest of us(men) a bad name.

Matthew Geier

Saint Charles, Ill

 

Let's set aside the talent level for a moment. Nerves would do the man in. A couple days after our U.S. Open Challenge amateur winner, Larry Giebelhausen, shot 101 at Bethpage, we played at another Long Island course. Granted, the set-up was nowhere near as difficult, but it was not an easy golf course. Larry shot even par on the front nine, three or four over on the back. It was not his talent, but rather the pressurized situation at the Challenge, the fact that he was totally out of his element, that had been the issue at Bethpage. And it would be, too, for our 4-handicapper against the LPGA players

But it would be fun to see, wouldn't it?

--Bob Carney

 

View the full article

(I tried to post this reply but kept coming up with an error message saying I had too many quoted discussions so I just replied to the OP even though what I'm saying is more in response to what Obee just posted)

 

I know earlier in this discussion there was a lot of back and forth about how a 4 is a 4 is a 4 no matter what tees he plays from---aside from the way the course rating adjusts stroke index from a particular set of tees. I think the meaning of that discussion was that a 4 tcp who played from 7500 yards would be like a 7 handicap so the distance factor is taken into account in handicap ratings. At least that's what I think it all meant.

 

Based on what Obee just posted I can see that the course yardage, while it is only a factor in determining an adjustment to handicap, is actually much more of a factor in this discussion of can a 4 hcpr beat the LPGA Tour pro (whatever the parameters of her rank within the Tour are, cannot remember where this ended up if it ended up at all.). I see this in my own game. From 6200 yards, where I usually play and record scores, my handicap at year's end was 2.8. But if I moved back (we have 5 sets of tees) to maybe the next to the tips tees the yardage would be 6950. My handicap from those tees would be a 3.7. But I can tell you that because of the distance there is no way I would shoot close to that course rating adjusted handicap as I would from my usual tees. The distance would make me frequently hit up to 5 clubs more given a similar tee shot (there are holes where I lay up when the course is 6200 yards but I would not lay up from the 6950 course so it's frequently apples and oranges when translating how the extra 750 yards affects play. You don't just divide 750 by 18 and say the course is 40+ yards/hole longer.

 

So, harkening way back on this discussion I've had my mind changed a bit and can now see that if the 4 handicap golfer (or +2 handicap golfer) is a relatively long hitter, but loses strokes elsewhere the majority of the time, he would likely score relatively better than me if we play from where his strength lies---longer yardage. Previously I thought the handicap system took that into account in such a way as to negate that advantage.

[Hot Rod 71]

4 handicap has no chance, ever. It's the short game and in particular the putting that would eat them alive.

 

Maybe you didn't know that most 4 handicaps shoot in the high 60s and low 70s as soon as you move them inside 6,500 yards. And those LPGA courses are really just glorified executive courses. You know they always play them like 700 yards closer than whatever the scorecard says.

 

I certainly hope this post is sarcasm. I've never seen a 4 hcp shoot in the 60s just because he/she moves up. A true 4 hcp is only going to shoot his hcp every few rounds at best. If he shoots in the high 60s or even low 70s, he's not a true 4.

 

I go to Kingsmill almost every year to see the ladies play. It is not a glorified executive course by any means. Then men played there in the late 90s and tipped it out around 6800 yards (short but very challenging). The ladies play it around 6300-6400 and its no easy track at that length.

[reeves]

The golf course and conditions aside---Many if not most 4 hdcp to scratch male amateurs play their home courses much if not most of the time with almost the same groups. There is a comfort level there that would put them at a disadvantage vs a LPGA player who plays virtually every day, on different courses for competition for $$, standings, endorsements, etc.etc and against other LPGAers who are presumably just as talented and hungry--pressure. There is also the discipline self instilled and learned over the season and the role of the caddy with continuous common sense risk/reward advice base on knowing the LPGAers strengths/weaknesses and go to shots.

 

On balance I would bet on the LPGA player.

[Obee]

 

Obee, I do not know you like some others apparently do on this discussion. I take it you are not a 4 handicap golfer?

 

0 to +1 now. Formerly +2 to +3. Oldish and short now.

[reeves]

I'm scratch, played reds this yr 1 time just to see what I'd put up, shot 61(-11). Played average, even made a bogey. +6 differential.

 

Scratch gives them a run for their money if we're talking avg lpga tour player from same tees. +3 destroys them. Do I think I can beat lydia ko consistently? Hell no. but there is a gigantic talent difference in ko and an avg lpga tour player.

 

 

I don't know about today's LPGA course tournament distances but in 2012 they averaged about 6600yds. That is most men's avg White Tees not Reds. I assume they are somewhat longer today.

[nikegal]

4 handicap has no chance, ever. It's the short game and in particular the putting that would eat them alive.

 

Maybe you didn't know that most 4 handicaps shoot in the high 60s and low 70s as soon as you move them inside 6,500 yards. And those LPGA courses are really just glorified executive courses. You know they always play them like 700 yards closer than whatever the scorecard says.

 

I certainly hope this post is sarcasm. I've never seen a 4 hcp shoot in the 60s just because he/she moves up. A true 4 hcp is only going to shoot his hcp every few rounds at best. If he shoots in the high 60s or even low 70s, he's not a true 4.

 

I go to Kingsmill almost every year to see the ladies play. It is not a glorified executive course by any means. Then men played there in the late 90s and tipped it out around 6800 yards (short but very challenging). The ladies play it around 6300-6400 and its no easy track at that length.

He's got to be kidding or sarcastic Rod, hahahaha. However, this being the land of 208yd baby cut 7's, maybe not, lol. Have a nice evening :) Maddie

[nikegal]

There are basically five Players clubs in town- Sewickley Heights, St. Clair, Fox Chapel and then Richard's club(Pgh Field Club) and Oakmont, which are considered the top 2 with Oakmont being the top club probably 8/10 years. All of the clubs used to have a 4~ handicap as the cut-off for the championship flight of the club championships. All five clubs dropped the bar, with the first three clubs mentioned dropping it to 2.5~ and Oakmont and Richard's club setting the bar at 1.5~. Why?? Because a 4~, and it didn't matter which club, was not competitive against the Pluses. In the last 30 years, two Players have won Richard's club's championship with handicaps above scratch(Richard is the last Player to win it at scratch, in 1987), one a former Pro who was at 1.2~ and a former college Player(Purdue) who was at 1.8~. A former Pro or serious Plus who has gotten on with their lives and play only occasionally, and their handicap rises to the 4~ range, yes, they have it in them, especially MENTALLY to carry a 4~ and blow it out. But a regular 4~ breaking 70 in a tournament or money game???? C'mon, hahaha :) Maddie

[Forged4ever]

There are basically five Players clubs in town- Sewickley Heights, St. Clair, Fox Chapel and then Richard's club(Pgh Field Club) and Oakmont, which are considered the top 2 with Oakmont being the top club probably 8/10 years. All of the clubs used to have a 4~ handicap as the cut-off for the championship flight of the club championships. All five clubs dropped the bar, with the first three clubs mentioned dropping it to 2.5~ and Oakmont and Richard's club setting the bar at 1.5~. Why?? Because a 4~, and it didn't matter which club, was not competitive against the Pluses. In the last 30 years, two Players have won Richard's club's championship with handicaps above scratch(Richard is the last Player to win it at scratch, in 1987), one a former Pro who was at 1.2~ and a former college Player(Purdue) who was at 1.8~. A former Pro or serious Plus who has gotten on with their lives and play only occasionally, and their handicap rises to the 4~ range, yes, they have it in them, especially MENTALLY to carry a 4~ and blow it out. But a regular 4~ breaking 70 in a tournament or money game???? C'mon, hahaha :) Maddie

LMAO, you're getting as bad as me, lol

 

Would you please get the hell out of here, close the shop and come visit me, I'm bored?

 

Edit: Oh, and Hankster won in '89 as a scratch?

 

Lovingly,

Me

[gogolf]

Nope.

[dhc1]

Obee, I do not know you like some others apparently do on this discussion. I take it you are not a 4 handicap golfer?

 

0 to +1 now. Formerly +2 to +3. Oldish and short now.

 

This is how a hustler talks. If the next line is something like "let's put a little action on", I'd run.......

 

Turning serious, this is where I have the low end LPGA, between (a real, not vanity) scratch and a +1 amateur male. Very good golfer

[b.helts]

0 to +1 now. Formerly +2 to +3. Oldish and short now.

 

lol Obee

 

More like old and shortish! (;

[CallawayLefty]

4 handicap has no chance, ever. It's the short game and in particular the putting that would eat them alive.

 

Maybe you didn't know that most 4 handicaps shoot in the high 60s and low 70s as soon as you move them inside 6,500 yards. And those LPGA courses are really just glorified executive courses. You know they always play them like 700 yards closer than whatever the scorecard says.

 

I certainly hope this post is sarcasm. I've never seen a 4 hcp shoot in the 60s just because he/she moves up. A true 4 hcp is only going to shoot his hcp every few rounds at best. If he shoots in the high 60s or even low 70s, he's not a true 4.

 

I go to Kingsmill almost every year to see the ladies play. It is not a glorified executive course by any means. Then men played there in the late 90s and tipped it out around 6800 yards (short but very challenging). The ladies play it around 6300-6400 and its no easy track at that length.

 

True 4 handicaps average about 82. Trust me, my post was sarcasm.

[Guia]

A four HC will average around 78. I am a 9 and average 83.

[CallawayLefty]

A four HC will average around 78. I am a 9 and average 83.

 

Guess it kind of depends where you're playing. I'm scratch and averaged about 76 this year. That said, I don't know too many 4 handicaps that average 78, nor do I know too many 9s that average 83. I take it you're either very consistent or your course isn't rated pretty low?

[Hot Rod 71]

A four HC will average around 78. I am a 9 and average 83.

 

Guess it kind of depends where you're playing. I'm scratch and averaged about 76 this year. That said, I don't know too many 4 handicaps that average 78, nor do I know too many 9s that average 83. I take it you're either very consistent or your course isn't rated pretty low?

 

How is that possible? High course rating? Several rounds in the 60s?

[Guia]

Callawaylefty: I don't see how you can average 76, unless you have some scores in the high 60's, or your course slope is 78 par? Yes, my course is rated at 69.3.

[Obee]

Callawaylefty: I don't see how you can average 76, unless you have some scores in the high 60's, or your course slope is 78 par? Yes, my course is rated at 69.3.

 

A player's average score is closely linked to the rating/slope of the course(s) played.

 

My average score all of last year was 75 as a 0 to +1.5 index golfer, but I play much of my golf on one of the two following courses: 75.8/146 and 73.8/142.

 

My TOURNAMENT ROUNDS average score was 72.9 because the courses I play in tournaments are almost never even close to as difficult as my home course.

 

Put me at my old home course (71.7/131) and my average would be 72ish