Mini Tours: I don't get it

[mjen43]

I have played (and continue to play) a LOT of golf with mini tour, Canadian Tour, Web.com, and Champions Tour players. Over the last five years at my club (which hosts Web.com Q-school), I have played literally hundreds of rounds with these guys, as well as rounds with elite tour pros like Rickie Fowler, Charlie Hoffman, Brendan Steele, Paul Goydos, Tom Pernice, Jr., and Phil Mickelson.

 

Most of the mini tour guys I've played with have all shot multiple rounds of 65-67 at our course (par 72, 7,157 75.7/146) but most of them simply shoot too many 73-76 rounds to ever make it on the big tour (unless they can fix that).

 

For every player there's a different story, but the bottom line is the same: they've never been able to make it all the way through Q-school, which is all that really matters

 

68, 67, 70, 69 beats 67, 76, 72, 73 every time, right?

 

And that's really all it is: the guys who don't make it simply don't quite score well enough--often enough--to make it. And the reasons vary from player to player. For some it's nerves. For some it's putting, for some it's iron play, for some it's short game. For some it's driving. For some it's two of those, for some it's three. For some it's all of them.....

 

Nice post. Just like to add on to your post a little. Some people (like Lee Westwood or Graham Delaet with chipping/putting yips) can have one or two parts of their game at 15 handicap level and still make a great living year in year out (due to elite level other stuff). You don't really need to have the total package if other parts of your game are best in the world level. The problem is there's only a few people alive who can do it that way. The run of the mill PGA tour player does have holes in their game, they are just good enough in other tangible/intangible areas to overcome it.

 

If you have mini tour level short game, better have above tour average level ball striking/putting/mental/other stuff to make up for it. Those who don't make it just don't shoot the scores, in Q-school/tournament play often enough for an infinite number of different reasons.

[KirkNo-yes]

I played a lot of Hooters events in the late 90's ( when Chad Campbell owned the tour) and it was truly eye opening to see how many guys could go out there and light it up...BUT that was then and this is now. I think the biggest thing that has evolved is the courses from the late 90's and early 2000's. Back when I was trying to make a living at this game the courses were FAR different than the way mini tour courses are set up today. I think it has helped a lot of guys prepare better for taking the next step. The mini tour events I play in now are not local muni's. they are really great courses stretched out long and pins that make you question peoples sanity when setting them. Mind you I have my amateur status back and am under NO illusions of going out and winning one of these but Getting in a few solid rounds with guys that can just light it up make the Amateur invitationals I play in seem a little less stressful. I tell people all the time for every mini tour player there are thousands just like them. Hell Beau Hossler was playing in a couple of the mini tour events I played in recently. What set's them apart from tour players comes down to 3 things that I have deduced from playing hundreds if not thousands of rounds with mini tour and pga tour players.

1. the distance between their ears- this includes confidence, thought process, and everything your brain encompasses. It has been said there are only two types of golfers that win PGA tour events. Guys that are extremely smart and guys that are really stupid. It's true. But I think the days of stupid guys winning are coming to an end. Guys know how to play to their strengths and they know how to play a conservative game plan with an aggressive swing. they know how to attack pins from the right angles so that if they miss the shot they are left with an easy up and down.

2. Wedge play - this includes everything inside 120 yards. when a tour player gets a wedge in their hands...it seems like they will almost make it every stinking time. This is a huge difference.

3. Equipment choices- I know this seems odd but PGA tour players ALL play the stuff that helps them get the ball in hole the fastest and the easiest. There are more guys on tour with 10.5 and higher drivers than you can fathom. the days of 8.5 degree drivers are slowly dying. they hit 5 woods and hybrids more than long irons. they also play the easiest shafts they can justify not the stiffest. I can't tell you how many mini tour players I see or amateurs playing stuff that clearly isn't the right thing for them but the ego takes over. ESPECIALLY on the driver.

 

And that right there is exactly why the "pros getting their amateur status" back is such a contentious topic.

 

What stops any amateur from paying the entry fee and playing a mini tour event if they want the experience? Sure, they can't collect the prize money but neither can Kirk.

 

It's Kirk playing in amateur events, having had to sing for his supper, playing against guys who had no experience like that.

 

While I am slightly amused that you give me that much credit about my game and think I was some kind of big shot, I am and was NOT. I think you should stick to what you actually know instead of talking about stuff you know absolutely zero about. The process is very thorough and detailed. You don't just call them up and say "hey, I don't want to be a pro anymore" and wham you are clear. There are tons of factors that come into play. You have zero clue how long I wasn't allowed to play in tournaments because I was penalized. You have zero idea how successful or how unsuccessful I was. In part what you are doing is slander. You are implying that I am somehow doing something unfair which is far from the case. it is far to easy to pro in Golf, seriously. I can literally stand here and tell you I am one and I, by all intent purposes, am one. How is that even happen? every other sport there is a league or governing body that reviews your results to say "you are ready". When applying for your amateur status back they take into account a lot of things, the amount of time you were a pro, how much money you won, if you were a member of a tour and for how long, when the last tournament you played in was as a pro and so on and so forth. I agree that the the rule should be tightened up to protect BOTH sides but I think you are yelling fire where there isn't one. I play in a lot of amateur invitationals and there are a lot of guys who play in them who have at one point attempted to play for a living but didn't make it. You cry unfair and I see an opportunity to sharpen my blade and try to beat someone who might have had a lot more success than me at this game... and for the record that is pretty much everyone who has played professional. haha. now back to pro's getting their am status back. It's not easy and for some it is impossible to get it back. Tiger, Phil and guys like that would never be able to get theirs back. Not sure why I wrote as much as I did as I don't feel I owe anyone an explanation for getting my amateur status back but when people cast me or anyone like me in a light that is somehow taking advantage of something or someone well then I will speak up. So again...you should probably stop talking about something you know nothing about

[Obee]

I played a lot of Hooters events in the late 90's ( when Chad Campbell owned the tour) and it was truly eye opening to see how many guys could go out there and light it up...BUT that was then and this is now. I think the biggest thing that has evolved is the courses from the late 90's and early 2000's. Back when I was trying to make a living at this game the courses were FAR different than the way mini tour courses are set up today. I think it has helped a lot of guys prepare better for taking the next step. The mini tour events I play in now are not local muni's. they are really great courses stretched out long and pins that make you question peoples sanity when setting them. Mind you I have my amateur status back and am under NO illusions of going out and winning one of these but Getting in a few solid rounds with guys that can just light it up make the Amateur invitationals I play in seem a little less stressful. I tell people all the time for every mini tour player there are thousands just like them. Hell Beau Hossler was playing in a couple of the mini tour events I played in recently. What set's them apart from tour players comes down to 3 things that I have deduced from playing hundreds if not thousands of rounds with mini tour and pga tour players.

1. the distance between their ears- this includes confidence, thought process, and everything your brain encompasses. It has been said there are only two types of golfers that win PGA tour events. Guys that are extremely smart and guys that are really stupid. It's true. But I think the days of stupid guys winning are coming to an end. Guys know how to play to their strengths and they know how to play a conservative game plan with an aggressive swing. they know how to attack pins from the right angles so that if they miss the shot they are left with an easy up and down.

2. Wedge play - this includes everything inside 120 yards. when a tour player gets a wedge in their hands...it seems like they will almost make it every stinking time. This is a huge difference.

3. Equipment choices- I know this seems odd but PGA tour players ALL play the stuff that helps them get the ball in hole the fastest and the easiest. There are more guys on tour with 10.5 and higher drivers than you can fathom. the days of 8.5 degree drivers are slowly dying. they hit 5 woods and hybrids more than long irons. they also play the easiest shafts they can justify not the stiffest. I can't tell you how many mini tour players I see or amateurs playing stuff that clearly isn't the right thing for them but the ego takes over. ESPECIALLY on the driver.

 

And that right there is exactly why the "pros getting their amateur status" back is such a contentious topic.

 

What stops any amateur from paying the entry fee and playing a mini tour event if they want the experience? Sure, they can't collect the prize money but neither can Kirk.

 

It's Kirk playing in amateur events, having had to sing for his supper, playing against guys who had no experience like that.

 

While I am slightly amused that you give me that much credit about my game and think I was some kind of big shot, I am and was NOT. I think you should stick to what you actually know instead of talking about stuff you know absolutely zero about. The process is very thorough and detailed. You don't just call them up and say "hey, I don't want to be a pro anymore" and wham you are clear. There are tons of factors that come into play. You have zero clue how long I wasn't allowed to play in tournaments because I was penalized. You have zero idea how successful or how unsuccessful I was. In part what you are doing is slander. You are implying that I am somehow doing something unfair which is far from the case. it is far to easy to pro in Golf, seriously. I can literally stand here and tell you I am one and I, by all intent purposes, am one. How is that even happen? every other sport there is a league or governing body that reviews your results to say "you are ready". When applying for your amateur status back they take into account a lot of things, the amount of time you were a pro, how much money you won, if you were a member of a tour and for how long, when the last tournament you played in was as a pro and so on and so forth. I agree that the the rule should be tightened up to protect BOTH sides but I think you are yelling fire where there isn't one. I play in a lot of amateur invitationals and there are a lot of guys who play in them who have at one point attempted to play for a living but didn't make it. You cry unfair and I see an opportunity to sharpen my blade and try to beat someone who might have had a lot more success than me at this game... and for the record that is pretty much everyone who has played professional. haha. now back to pro's getting their am status back. It's not easy and for some it is impossible to get it back. Tiger, Phil and guys like that would never be able to get theirs back. Not sure why I wrote as much as I did as I don't feel I owe anyone an explanation for getting my amateur status back but when people cast me or anyone like me in a light that is somehow taking advantage of something or someone well then I will speak up. So again...you should probably stop talking about something you know nothing about

 

Playing against former pros in invitationals and local and regional stuff has always been something that I relish. I'm a lifelong amateur who played baseball in college, not golf, so to be able to finish higher on the leaderboard than a guy who played professionally for many years is always something that I've taken pride in.

 

Still, though, I wish they couldn't play am events!!! LOL!!

[wetfairwayshardgreens]

Mini Tours should be taken for what there worth. I played in a number of events on Mini tours in the Carolina's and South FL. No one is out there to make a living but to sharper there game for the next level. Anyone would see the correct way to pursue a path to the PGA Tour would be Monday qualifiers and web.com q school. At the end of the day it comes down to money.

[lumberman2462]

I've known a few guys that applied for their Amateur status back and both got it.

 

One had been out of golf for about three years selling insurance and it took him about a year.

 

The other guy it took two years to get it back. We let him play in our local Invitational golf tournament while he was still a pro but waiting to get his status back. Nobody really cared...he didn't win the tournament.

[golfortennis]

It's not exactly trivial to get your amateur status back. There's time, money, hope, and some more time that need to happen. Play with a bunch of guys who have gotten their am status back and while they are still good players, there is a reason that they quit playing golf as a professional and, at least for the guys I know and play with, that typically leaves some mental scarring because of the fact they weren't "good enough" so to speak.

 

I have played in several events with guys who have been reinstated and, at least for them, they are no better or worse than the ams that play a lot of tournament golf. This can obviously change based on your location and who you generally play with.

 

Some of the people who are getting their am status back are former club pro guys who were forced to have professional status because of what they did for work. I have a few guys I play with who are in this situation, and they were less of a pro than I am, given that they basically never played any tournament golf.

 

I agree.

The whole professional versus amateur status needs simplifying. I know of several elite amateurs who play at a higher level and make more prize money than any club pro in the area, albeit in cashed-in vouchers.

To prevent young talent from turning pro too soon and becoming lost on obscure mini-tours making virtually nothing, and to re-invigorate the elite-level amateur game, Peter McEvoy (esteemed former Walker Cup player) proposed to the R&A that anyone outside of the top two tiers of professional golf (PGA tour & web.com in the US & Euro tour & Challenge tour in Europe) should be classed as amateur and allowed to compete against each other, and receive prize money. After all, mini-tour players are essentially playing for their 'own' money and top amateur talent already gets paid indirectly through sponsorship.

 

I like the idea. Possibly with a caveat that you cannot enter the traditional amateur championships once you've had a tour card on a 'professional' tour.

 

Would this work?

 

That certainly add in different complications, but I personally think it's a fantastic idea!

 

I know when I was playing my best golf I knew I was never going to make it to the tour, but I knew that I would be able to compete against other higher level ams. When I was playing at that level, my regular group was a few guys who are now playing on various tours around the world and some higher level ams and when we played, we played for some cash. There was more than once that I was able to pay my rent because of what I won in a day on the golf course as well as having that go the other way. We were playing for our own money (as you correctly mentioned that the mini-tour guys do), and there were times that there was more upside and less downside than playing some of the 1 day events that were in the area.

 

I know that what I'm describing above isn't an isolated incident as there are always money games to be found in any city you want to play golf in so long as you know where and how to look.

 

Letting the club pro guys play in amateur events would also be nice, since there are plenty of them who aren't able to break 80, don't have the "PGA" designation, and enjoy competition. Letting some of the guys who are playing day in and day out on the Latino America and Mackenzie tours may cause some to back out. If all of that means that I get to play for actual money vs some gift card for the overpriced stuff in the pro shop, I'm all for it.

 

I've posted several times in several threads that I do believe a distinction needs to be made between the club pro and the tour pro. I would have hoped the "sing for his supper" comment made that clear.But you look at a Gary Nicklaus for example. Guy has spent how many years on the PGA Tour? And has his am status back? (I know he may not be the finest example given his lineage, but it's still questionable.) There's also a guy who played on the PGA tour, it didn't work out, got his am status back, turned 50, turned pro again for the senior tour, it didn't work out, got his status back AGAIN. I mean, c'mon. You're either a pro or you're not, whether you make money at it is irrelevant.

 

So what you're saying is, and I'm honestly looking for clarification, once you turn pro you never should be able to get your amateur status back unless you were a club pro? Are you saying you don't like being able to get amateur status back more than once?

 

If those are what you're saying, I have to disagree. If I didn't interpret this correctly, I'm okay with being told I'm wrong.

 

Basically, and this is a weakness that has not been adjusted as the nature has changed, but I think John Feinstein put it best in A Good walk Spoiled: "A tour pro has everything looked after so he can focus on his game. A club pro looks after everything for everyone else's game." On a straight yes/no filter, I would say where you fall in that equation is where you fall in terms of should you be able to get you amateur status back. I get that it's not that simple, and where do you draw the line? There is a tour in SW Ontario that is basically club pros, but it's technically a mini-tour. I think at a bare minimum, any tour that is part of the consortium that makes up the WGC "field" should have a very difficult time ever getting status back. If you've played on there, sorry, you're not getting am status back.Remember, the USGA mid-am is looked upon as a backdoor to the Masters for former pros. Almost as much of a joke as the Publinx had become.

[golfortennis]

I played a lot of Hooters events in the late 90's ( when Chad Campbell owned the tour) and it was truly eye opening to see how many guys could go out there and light it up...BUT that was then and this is now. I think the biggest thing that has evolved is the courses from the late 90's and early 2000's. Back when I was trying to make a living at this game the courses were FAR different than the way mini tour courses are set up today. I think it has helped a lot of guys prepare better for taking the next step. The mini tour events I play in now are not local muni's. they are really great courses stretched out long and pins that make you question peoples sanity when setting them. Mind you I have my amateur status back and am under NO illusions of going out and winning one of these but Getting in a few solid rounds with guys that can just light it up make the Amateur invitationals I play in seem a little less stressful. I tell people all the time for every mini tour player there are thousands just like them. Hell Beau Hossler was playing in a couple of the mini tour events I played in recently. What set's them apart from tour players comes down to 3 things that I have deduced from playing hundreds if not thousands of rounds with mini tour and pga tour players.

1. the distance between their ears- this includes confidence, thought process, and everything your brain encompasses. It has been said there are only two types of golfers that win PGA tour events. Guys that are extremely smart and guys that are really stupid. It's true. But I think the days of stupid guys winning are coming to an end. Guys know how to play to their strengths and they know how to play a conservative game plan with an aggressive swing. they know how to attack pins from the right angles so that if they miss the shot they are left with an easy up and down.

2. Wedge play - this includes everything inside 120 yards. when a tour player gets a wedge in their hands...it seems like they will almost make it every stinking time. This is a huge difference.

3. Equipment choices- I know this seems odd but PGA tour players ALL play the stuff that helps them get the ball in hole the fastest and the easiest. There are more guys on tour with 10.5 and higher drivers than you can fathom. the days of 8.5 degree drivers are slowly dying. they hit 5 woods and hybrids more than long irons. they also play the easiest shafts they can justify not the stiffest. I can't tell you how many mini tour players I see or amateurs playing stuff that clearly isn't the right thing for them but the ego takes over. ESPECIALLY on the driver.

 

And that right there is exactly why the "pros getting their amateur status" back is such a contentious topic.

 

What stops any amateur from paying the entry fee and playing a mini tour event if they want the experience? Sure, they can't collect the prize money but neither can Kirk.

 

It's Kirk playing in amateur events, having had to sing for his supper, playing against guys who had no experience like that.

 

While I am slightly amused that you give me that much credit about my game and think I was some kind of big shot, I am and was NOT. I think you should stick to what you actually know instead of talking about stuff you know absolutely zero about. The process is very thorough and detailed. You don't just call them up and say "hey, I don't want to be a pro anymore" and wham you are clear. There are tons of factors that come into play. You have zero clue how long I wasn't allowed to play in tournaments because I was penalized. You have zero idea how successful or how unsuccessful I was. In part what you are doing is slander. You are implying that I am somehow doing something unfair which is far from the case. it is far to easy to pro in Golf, seriously. I can literally stand here and tell you I am one and I, by all intent purposes, am one. How is that even happen? every other sport there is a league or governing body that reviews your results to say "you are ready". When applying for your amateur status back they take into account a lot of things, the amount of time you were a pro, how much money you won, if you were a member of a tour and for how long, when the last tournament you played in was as a pro and so on and so forth. I agree that the the rule should be tightened up to protect BOTH sides but I think you are yelling fire where there isn't one. I play in a lot of amateur invitationals and there are a lot of guys who play in them who have at one point attempted to play for a living but didn't make it. You cry unfair and I see an opportunity to sharpen my blade and try to beat someone who might have had a lot more success than me at this game... and for the record that is pretty much everyone who has played professional. haha. now back to pro's getting their am status back. It's not easy and for some it is impossible to get it back. Tiger, Phil and guys like that would never be able to get theirs back. Not sure why I wrote as much as I did as I don't feel I owe anyone an explanation for getting my amateur status back but when people cast me or anyone like me in a light that is somehow taking advantage of something or someone well then I will speak up. So again...you should probably stop talking about something you know nothing about

 

Hmmm, slander? Really? What's the saying? The vociferousness of the response is in direct proportion to how right you are? I've really hit a nerve here, haven't I?

[golfandfishing]

"Remember, the USGA mid-am is looked upon as a backdoor to the Masters for former pros. Almost as much of a joke as the Publinx had become."

 

How many mid am winners are reinstated amateurs?

[Obee]

"Remember, the USGA mid-am is looked upon as a backdoor to the Masters for former pros. Almost as much of a joke as the Publinx had become."

 

How many mid am winners are reinstated amateurs?

 

A lot.

[golfandfishing]

Figured it was a reasonably high number.

[rockinar]

A lot of these players have Web.com and even PGA Tour ability but have just not got their break yet

 

What break do they need? Either they have it and can move up, or they don't. Do you think Jordan Spieth would flounder around on some mini tour for years because he "can't get a break"? No. He would use them for traction and move up. Either they got it or they dont.

[Rweaves6]

A lot of these players have Web.com and even PGA Tour ability but have just not got their break yet

 

What break do they need? Either they have it and can move up, or they don't. Do you think Jordan Spieth would flounder around on some mini tour for years because he "can't get a break"? No. He would use them for traction and move up. Either they got it or they dont.

 

I respect your point although using a top 5 player in the world (former #1) may not be the best example. I think a better example would be to use something like #130 on the points list. Then I'd say the answer could be yes.

[b.helts]

A lot of these players have Web.com and even PGA Tour ability but have just not got their break yet

 

What break do they need? Either they have it and can move up, or they don't. Do you think Jordan Spieth would flounder around on some mini tour for years because he "can't get a break"? No. He would use them for traction and move up. Either they got it or they dont.

 

Can you define "it"? I only ask because this is something I know a bit about.

 

Clearly there are those that make it to the tour, and those that don't. But I'm curious about what those that do make it have, versus those that don't make it, don't.

 

My opinion is that it's easy to say those that don't, don't have "it" but that that do make it, do have "it". Of course, that "it" is the whole enchilada, isn't it. You seem to know the answer, so what is "it"?

[Frostfield]

A lot of these players have Web.com and even PGA Tour ability but have just not got their break yet

 

What break do they need? Either they have it and can move up, or they don't. Do you think Jordan Spieth would flounder around on some mini tour for years because he "can't get a break"? No. He would use them for traction and move up. Either they got it or they dont.

 

Sorry but I disagree 100%. Sure, a superstar like Spieth would crush it, but a fringe guy could hang around mini tours for a few years then hit his break. #Chad Campbell.

[Obee]

A lot of these players have Web.com and even PGA Tour ability but have just not got their break yet

 

What break do they need? Either they have it and can move up, or they don't. Do you think Jordan Spieth would flounder around on some mini tour for years because he "can't get a break"? No. He would use them for traction and move up. Either they got it or they dont.

 

Sorry but I disagree 100%. Sure, a superstar like Spieth would crush it, but a fringe guy could hang around mini tours for a few years then hit his break. #Chad Campbell.

 

I think the truth lies somewhere in between, as usual: the guy who "gets a break" can only take advantage of it if he is ready to do so. His game has to be good enough to take

advantage of the break. And, it has to be good enough to get him to the point where he can even get the break to begin with.

[Parker0065]

Going back to the OP's question, for some of us older folks that have been around the game a while the phrase "Mini Tour" use to mean AAA, and one step away from the PGA Tour. The Hogan/Web.com/Nationwide/(Whatever it is now) - Tour took that AAA spot over years ago. So anything below that is at best single A or double A to put it in baseball terms.

 

The other thing is the way things are set up today if you come out of college with the only option of playing "mini-tours" your exponentially behind the curve right out of the gates. That doesn't mean you have no chance. Maybe you had a half a** decent college career and just completely imploded at Q-School out of the gates. Likely those guy's calm down and make it the next year to the Web.com if they have the drive, talent, and self confidence. But if you've been bouncing around for a number of years on mini-tours then either you just actually like living like a hobo, or Daddy has plenty of spare cash to throw away.

 

This is no different than any other sport and I don't think there needs to be any dramatic changes to the system. Gosh how many thousands and thousands of single A and double A baseball players all over the country that will likely never sniff AAA, or the Majors are out there?

A couple thousand golfers around the country that on a inconsistent basis can sometimes almost compete at the PGA/Web.com tour level? At least single/double A baseball teams are usually somewhat profitable. It's a no brainer that a lot more tickets are sold at those games than will ever be sold at a golf mini-tour event.

 

As someone stated earlier, mini-tours are really just a quick stepping stone and a reality call for most. Trying to make a actual real living on a mini-tour is like the fry guy at McD's complaining they can't afford that BMW, McMansion, and 401k.

I had a neighbor that played semi-pro Hockey for 10 years. I met him about a year after he finally hung it up. He finally quit only because his wife(who had a solid corporate job and pretty much payed all the bills) told him he was a grown man in his early 30's and it was time to put the toys away and get a real job. I guess that didn't work out to well, a year after I met them and two years after she made him quit they divorced. Guess he was mad she was trying to make him grow up, lol!

 

As far as "making it"? Sure there are some amazing guys out there that can go really low. I personally believe the dividing line for most comes down to motivation, confidence, and self esteem. Like others have stated there are guys that can smoke everyone in a mini-tour event, light up a Monday qualifier, then miss the cut by 10 shots. That screams lack of confidence, self esteem, and self worth that they really belong there.

That can be overcome by getting into that position a number of times and coming to the realization that they really do belong. But for most they may never be consistent enough or have enough self confidence to get in that position enough times to break through. There's a couple obvious phrases that really ring true in this topic. The truest and most obvious is "If this was easy, everybody would be doing it"! Another is "Big fish, Little pond"!

[Frostfield]

A lot of these players have Web.com and even PGA Tour ability but have just not got their break yet

 

What break do they need? Either they have it and can move up, or they don't. Do you think Jordan Spieth would flounder around on some mini tour for years because he "can't get a break"? No. He would use them for traction and move up. Either they got it or they dont.

 

Sorry but I disagree 100%. Sure, a superstar like Spieth would crush it, but a fringe guy could hang around mini tours for a few years then hit his break. #Chad Campbell.

 

I think the truth lies somewhere in between, as usual: the guy who "gets a break" can only take advantage of it if he is ready to do so. His game has to be good enough to take

advantage of the break. And, it has to be good enough to get him to the point where he can even get the break to begin with.

 

Campbell had a top 100 in the World skill set (arguably top 50) all those years and couldn't break through. It's the most extreme example yes, but my point is that there is nothing automatic about making it on tour regardless of talent level. I remember when Notah Begay was at the end of his playing days, he said he had a better chance of doing well on the PGA Tour vs. the mini tours. He was getting a few starts here and there while playing mini tour events inbetween. Lots and lots of talent out there.

[Forged4ever]

No Tour Pro, or Web.com or Mini-Tour Player for that matter, has a 15~ cap level anything......

 

At least none of the hundreds that I've ever Played with ;)

 

WTF, lmao

 

I Love this friggin Place??

 

Have a great weekend Gents??

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends ⛳️

RP

[Forged4ever]

A 2-Star average prior to my post???

 

This is an excellent thread-

 

Any thread that has an Obes, Mitch's, Kirk, b.helts and Lumber's posts in it is no less than a 4-Star

 

Their posts mitigate my boneheaded posts ?

 

What a bunch of chuckleheads ?

 

I hate this friggin place??

 

All the Best,

RP

[Mitchell]

Another factor for consideration is how well the tour is managed and operates. On some of the smaller circuits, and even bigger ones, even exceptional play is no guarantee that funds will be received as promised.

[mjen43]

No Tour Pro, or Web.com or Mini-Tour Player for that matter, has a 15~ cap level anything......

 

At least none of the hundreds that I've ever Played with ;)

 

WTF, lmao

 

I Love this friggin Place����

 

Have a great weekend Gents����

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends ⛳️

RP

 

Okay maybe not 15 handicap, but 5-10 handicap level.

 

Lee Westwood certainly does. Hunter Mahan and Graham Delaet have had the chipping yips. Ernie Els has had the putting yips. They're all also elite, top tier ball strikers. There's not many players with major holes, but some do have them.

[golfandfishing]

Still nope. The worst putter, ballstriker, chipper, whatever on tour is better than the best at your club.

 

 

[mjen43]

Still nope. The worst putter, ballstriker, chipper, whatever on tour is better than the best at your club.

After more thought, I've overestimated the putting ability of a 5 or 10 handicapper or whatever as I don't really ever play with that level of players that often.

 

My club has a Euro Tour full member, a web.com full member, some members with conditional web status, and a bunch of latin/canada/asia/mini/D1 players. Aside from the scores each have posted in competitive play over time, they all look virtually the same when practicing and can beat each other on any given day. They also all have certain skill advantages and disadvantages over others.

 

Lee Westwood is probably a top 10 ball striker in the world. If he had even replacement tour level putting/short game he'd likely be a multiple time major winner and perennial top 5 player in the world. He likely has the short game/putting of a break even mini tour player, maybe a little worse.

 

I was definitely wrong about the 5-10 handicap comment, but I would argue that there are likely thousands of players you could substitute Lee Westwood's short game / putting with and have equal or much greater success.

 

That's what I was trying to say in my comments earlier. Tour player are not perfect golfing robots. Many players have significant holes in their games.

 

Edit: i will say that those significant holes are much more likely to be in putting/short game than ballstriking as many more shots are available to gain/lose through ball striking than putting/chipping. It would be much harder to make it on tour with mini tour level ballstriking and tour short game vs the opposite.

[KirkNo-yes]

Your response validates my point. You don't know me. You didn't strike a nerve at all as you are giving more credit in my success in the professional ranks than I should. when you are asserting things about people and saying things that are an attempt to damage their reputation is slander, you are implying by the fact that I bounced around playing mini tour events over 17 years ago (While still working) then quit playing tournament golf for 3 years should somehow be in the ranks of Pro my whole life which is why I said you should stick to what you know because in this case and MANY others like me you are clueless. I have a good friend who played one year on the Gateway tour as a pro in the early 2000's and didn't come close to making any money. should he stay as a pro? Last time I checked he can't break 80 AT ALL. That is why I said the system is broke because it is way to easy to become a professional in golf, touring professional. The beautiful thing about this game is that it can be directly proportional to the amount of quality time you put into to it. Do you think it's unfair an amateur can get down to a really low + handicap? Many a former pros can't play as good as a lot of really good amateurs. there is a guy who has won what is usually my first big tournament of the year 3 times and he played on tour for a few years, do I think it's unfair? Has never crossed my mind because now he has a job and works and doesn't play every week in a tournament. Golf is a HIGHLY mental game and what I meant when I said it takes some stress off of me when playing in an amateur invitational is that when you play as an amateur like me in a mini tour event it can be mentally draining playing hard and watching you get beat by guys who don't have as beautiful as swing as you think they would or shoot scores that make you shake your head. You have to GRIND each time out there just to get close and I like sharpening my sword agains the best competition I can find. I won't take strokes off my buddies who play on THE PGA tour because I don't want help. I don't want that at all...but striking a nerve? ha, I was in the Marine Corp and I had someone in my face every day for a long time so you would need to do a whole lot more to get me that fired up.

[Forged4ever]

No Tour Pro, or Web.com or Mini-Tour Player for that matter, has a 15~ cap level anything......

 

At least none of the hundreds that I've ever Played with ;)

 

WTF, lmao

 

I Love this friggin Place??

 

Have a great weekend Gents??

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends ⛳️

RP

 

Okay maybe not 15 handicap, but 5-10 handicap level.

 

Lee Westwood certainly does. Hunter Mahan and Graham Delaet have had the chipping yips. Ernie Els has had the putting yips. They're all also elite, top tier ball strikers. There's not many players with major holes, but some do have them.

First off, yips have absolutely zero to do with handicap level because world class ball strikers(Hogan, Sam and Ernie off the top of my over medicated head) develop them.

 

Yes, they may have "holes" as you say but this "hole" and this part of their game, while it may be average or even below average for a Tour Pro, regardless of the Tour, it is nowhere near a 5-10 capper-

 

I'm not being a smart ... here, but have you ever Played with a Tour Pro?

 

I'm talkin THE Tour?

 

I ask because that is the only way to truly appreciate just how good these guys are-

 

Not on TV, not behind the ropes-

 

Either Playin with em or caddying for em

 

I just ask because it's one thing to watch guys in TV or from behind the ropes and watch them struggle but you have to remember that even a Tour Pro who has a below average wedge game, has hit hundreds of thousands if not over a million(depending on their age cuz guys over 40yo have easily hit a million plus balls) balls and there is no 5-10 cap that I've ever met or heard of who's hit a fraction of that.

 

Though I've never Played with Lee Westwood, Madison did in '07 before the Open at Oakmont and I'm sure she'll jump in, lol, but trust me here, even on his worst day, he's not close to a 5~ to 10~ cap in any part of his game.

 

No way No day No how

 

I've never Played with, watched or heard of a Tour Pro with ANY part of their game equivalent to a 5~ to 10~ capper

 

No day No way No how

 

Regardless, I wish ya the very best for the season ahead??

 

Fairwairs & Greens 4ever My Friend⛳️

RP

[Forged4ever]

Brian(b.helts), Obes, Kirk and Golfandfishing have all Played with Tour Pros, what say you guys??

 

Hell, two of em were Pros and all four are Elite Ams-

 

If I'm off here I wanna know(Well, I know that I'm "off" but I mean never having Played with a Tour Pro who had any part of his game equal to a 5~ to 10~ capper)-

 

Hell, I've never Played with a competitive Elite Plus who's worst part of his game is equal to that-

 

All the Best,

RP

[golfandfishing]

Brian(b.helts), Obes, Kirk and Golfandfishing have all Played with Tour Pros, what say you guys??

 

Hell, two of em were Pros and all four are Elite Ams-

 

If I'm off here I wanna know(Well, I know that I'm "off" but I mean never having Played with a Tour Pro who had any part of his game equal to a 5~ to 10~ capper)-

 

Hell, I've never Played with a competitive Elite Plus who's worst part of his game is equal to that-

 

All the Best,

RP

 

I know someone is going to chirp back that a guy at their club won the us am or some other anomaly but I'll say it again- the worst player on tour is better at every aspect of the game than the best player at your club. It's not even close. The golf swing to them is automatic, it behaves for them the way vocal chords behave for speakers or singers, it is just there. For us the golf swing is this thing we can control when playing well. For them it is an after thought. As for the guy above - lee Westwood would be the best chipper, pitcher, bunker player and putter at your club and in your state for ams.

[Frostfield]

Brian(b.helts), Obes, Kirk and Golfandfishing have all Played with Tour Pros, what say you guys??

 

Hell, two of em were Pros and all four are Elite Ams-

 

If I'm off here I wanna know(Well, I know that I'm "off" but I mean never having Played with a Tour Pro who had any part of his game equal to a 5~ to 10~ capper)-

 

Hell, I've never Played with a competitive Elite Plus who's worst part of his game is equal to that-

 

All the Best,

RP

 

I know someone is going to chirp back that a guy at their club won the us am or some other anomaly but I'll say it again- the worst player on tour is better at every aspect of the game than the best player at your club. It's not even close. The golf swing to them is automatic, it behaves for them the way vocal chords behave for speakers or singers, it is just there. For us the golf swing is this thing we can control when playing well. For them it is an after thought. As for the guy above - lee Westwood would be the best chipper, pitcher, bunker player and putter at your club and in your state for ams.

 

Chirp chirp...there are hundreds of elite ams that can putt as good as, if not better than, some tour players. Half of them also have better complete short game's than some tour players. Now with ballstriking....whole nother deal...

[mjen43]

No Tour Pro, or Web.com or Mini-Tour Player for that matter, has a 15~ cap level anything......

 

At least none of the hundreds that I've ever Played with ;)

 

WTF, lmao

 

I Love this friggin Place??

 

Have a great weekend Gents??

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends ⛳️

RP

 

Okay maybe not 15 handicap, but 5-10 handicap level.

 

Lee Westwood certainly does. Hunter Mahan and Graham Delaet have had the chipping yips. Ernie Els has had the putting yips. They're all also elite, top tier ball strikers. There's not many players with major holes, but some do have them.

First off, yips have absolutely zero to do with handicap level because world class ball strikers(Hogan, Sam and Ernie off the top of my over medicated head) develop them.

 

Yes, they may have "holes" as you say but this "hole" and this part of their game, while it may be average or even below average for a Tour Pro, regardless of the Tour, it is nowhere near a 5-10 capper-

 

I'm not being a smart ... here, but have you ever Played with a Tour Pro?

 

I'm talkin THE Tour?

 

I ask because that is the only way to truly appreciate just how good these guys are-

 

Not on TV, not behind the ropes-

 

Either Playin with em or caddying for em

 

I just ask because it's one thing to watch guys in TV or from behind the ropes and watch them struggle but you have to remember that even a Tour Pro who has a below average wedge game, has hit hundreds of thousands if not over a million(depending on their age cuz guys over 40yo have easily hit a million plus balls) balls and there is no 5-10 cap that I've ever met or heard of who's hit a fraction of that.

 

Though I've never Played with Lee Westwood, Madison did in '07 before the Open at Oakmont and I'm sure she'll jump in, lol, but trust me here, even on his worst day, he's not close to a 5~ to 10~ cap in any part of his game.

 

No way No day No how

 

I've never Played with, watched or heard of a Tour Pro with ANY part of their game equivalent to a 5~ to 10~ capper

 

No day No way No how

 

Regardless, I wish ya the very best for the season ahead??

 

Fairwairs & Greens 4ever My Friend⛳️

RP

 

I admitted 5-10 handicap was wrong in my post above. I'd equate it more to a slightly below break-even mini tour player.

 

I've caddied for a friend and former teammate in a Web.com event and we were paired with two players currently on the PGA Tour. Those players certainly did not have any "holes" as large as Westwood's putting or any other tour player who has bottom level putting or chipping, but they also were nowhere near the level of a ball striker Westwood is.

 

Like I said in my post above, there are thousands of people who have average or slightly above tour average areas of their game and are not on the big tour, or even Web.com tour.

[golfandfishing]

Brian(b.helts), Obes, Kirk and Golfandfishing have all Played with Tour Pros, what say you guys??

 

Hell, two of em were Pros and all four are Elite Ams-

 

If I'm off here I wanna know(Well, I know that I'm "off" but I mean never having Played with a Tour Pro who had any part of his game equal to a 5~ to 10~ capper)-

 

Hell, I've never Played with a competitive Elite Plus who's worst part of his game is equal to that-

 

All the Best,

RP

 

I know someone is going to chirp back that a guy at their club won the us am or some other anomaly but I'll say it again- the worst player on tour is better at every aspect of the game than the best player at your club. It's not even close. The golf swing to them is automatic, it behaves for them the way vocal chords behave for speakers or singers, it is just there. For us the golf swing is this thing we can control when playing well. For them it is an after thought. As for the guy above - lee Westwood would be the best chipper, pitcher, bunker player and putter at your club and in your state for ams.

 

Chirp chirp...there are hundreds of elite ams that can putt as good as, if not better than, some tour players. Half of them also have better complete short game's than some tour players. Now with ballstriking....whole nother deal...

 

Nope. Just nope. Put that elite am in a tour event and they go for a pair of 80's nearly every time. Obviously not getting anything up and down. Now you want to compare short games at the ams home club in his Saturday game vs a tour player on a Sunday in hard, tight fairways to firm and very fast greens - sure, that's comparable.

 

Edit - I'll add that a few collegiate players are at that level with aspects of their game. Rahm, Schneiderjans and a few others had tour skills while still ams. Even most All Americans will tell you though - their short games and putting needed attention before they could make the tour.