Should bunkers be raked?

[williamsnrb]

Basic definitions from the USGA / R&A:

 

 

Bunker

 

is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

 

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

 

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.

 

 

 

Hazard

 

is any bunker or water hazard.

 

There it is! Thanks.

[TheCityGame]

Last thing I want to see is 72nd hole of a major come down to 18 and have a guy hit one in a bunker needing par to win only to be stuck in a footprint that wasn't there earlier costing him the tourney.

Last thing I want to see is a 72nd hole of a major where a guy needs a par to win, hits one into a greenside bunker, and has an absolutely perfect lie to give him a shot that he's practiced 1000 times, and perfected, and make an easy par.

 

Bunker shots of 10-20 yards (greenside bunkers, basically). . .in 2016, the you had to get down to the 136th ranked guy to get to someone with a <50% sand save percentage.

 

Bunkers are a joke. If you're going to have them, they should be penal.

 

#noRakes

[wcbjr]

Bunkers are a joke. If you're going to have them, they should be penal.

 

#noRakes

 

I have the lead in the penultimate group coming down the stretch, I am going to leave gigantic footprints in every bunker I see, even if my ball is not in them. Just to screw my competitors.

 

Yeah, that's not going to work.

[TheCityGame]

Bunkers are a joke. If you're going to have them, they should be penal.

 

#noRakes

 

I have the lead in the penultimate group coming down the stretch, I am going to leave gigantic footprints in every bunker I see, even if my ball is not in them. Just to screw my competitors.

 

Yeah, that's not going to work.

So, are you saying that you also hack at the fairway randomly with your irons and drag your feet all around the hole to screw with the guys behind you?

 

Because, no one is stopping you from doing those things right now.

 

But, you don't. Do you?

 

Because you're just saying stuff, right?

[williamsnrb]

Last thing I want to see is 72nd hole of a major come down to 18 and have a guy hit one in a bunker needing par to win only to be stuck in a footprint that wasn't there earlier costing him the tourney.

Last thing I want to see is a 72nd hole of a major where a guy needs a par to win, hits one into a greenside bunker, and has an absolutely perfect lie to give him a shot that he's practiced 1000 times, and perfected, and make an easy par.

 

Bunker shots of 10-20 yards (greenside bunkers, basically). . .in 2016, the you had to get down to the 136th ranked guy to get to someone with a <50% sand save percentage.

 

Bunkers are a joke. If you're going to have them, they should be penal.

 

#noRakes

 

I like the way you think! Ha, that's how I feel, too. If we're going to have bunkers, they should be more penal.

 

Bunkers are a joke. If you're going to have them, they should be penal.

 

#noRakes

 

I have the lead in the penultimate group coming down the stretch, I am going to leave gigantic footprints in every bunker I see, even if my ball is not in them. Just to screw my competitors.

 

Yeah, that's not going to work.

 

That's just strategy at that point! J/k

[TheCityGame]

Pine Valley. . .No Rakes. It's not a crazy concept.

 

http://www.myusualgame.com/2012/12/31/lets-get-rid-of-all-the-rakes/

 

I'd like to see a bunker shot where the expectation for a pro was to get it "on the green" and getting "near the hole" was a sign of excellence.

 

Sometimes you should get a good lie in a bunker. Sometimes you should get a bad lie in a bunker. Just like when you hit the ball in the rough. But, a pristine lie in a bunker 9 times out of 10 because people complain about it being "unfair". . .that's nonsense.

[darredondo09]

Honestly, I think this is only debatable on tour, as most golfers aren't nearly as skilled at bunker shots and will still lose at least a stroke most of the time they end up in one. According to that Dan Plan article from yesterday, only 6% of all golfers get to a 5.9 handicap. I know as a 10 there are still bunker shots that I struggle with. I think the majority of golfers (not WRXers) struggle immensely out of the bunker, and they are penal enough, raked or not.

[gvogel]

I happen to think that golf would be much better with unraked bunkers, and just about no water hazards. At the Old Course, the only water hazard is the Swilken Burn on the first hole. At Carnoustie, the only water hazard is the Barry Burn on the last two. You don't lose a ball when you hit it into a bunker - a good thing. Unraked bunkers would replace water, in my opinion.

[Christen_The_Sloop]

So basically it`s an argument about being penal vs being fair.

 

It`s hard to find any other sports where a governing body would lean in favor of penalizing the competition. But, if you own a course, you can make your own local rule... I think all else being equal, raking is the most reasonable way to go. And, all of the governing bodies feel the same way.

 

Further, we should do our best to fix all of the damage we do during the course of play. Replacing divots, fixing pitch marks etc. Why should sand be an exception?

 

Sure, sometimes the sand is the safer play... So what? Honestly? What difference does it make? You still have to hit the shot.

[TheCityGame]

So basically it`s an argument about being penal vs being fair.

 

It`s hard to find any other sports where a governing body would lean in favor of penalizing the competition. But, if you own a course, you can make your own local rule... I think all else being equal, raking is the most reasonable way to go. And, all of the governing bodies feel the same way.

 

Further, we should do our best to fix all of the damage we do during the course of play. Replacing divots, fixing pitch marks etc. Why should sand be an exception?

 

Sure, sometimes the sand is the safer play... So what? Honestly? What difference does it make? You still have to hit the shot.

What do you mean "all governing bodies feel the same way"?

 

The USGA rule book has a section on "Preventing Unnecessary Damage" to the course but doesn't mention bunkers in that section at all.

 

They do say that a bunker should be raked IF a rake is within reasonable proximity.

 

Wasn't it the USGA's decision to put ridges in the bunkers at Oakmont?

[cxx]

Most places bunkers are artificial artifacts, like a fountain or waterfall. There are no sheep to make them and maintain them. I did play at a club where they had no rakes for bunkers. The sand was firm and you just brushed the sand with your club as you left. No problems. Their condition didn't degrade much over time and everyone seemed happy with the reduced maintenance.

 

I did have to get a low bounce high lofted wedge for them.

[williamsnrb]

Pine Valley. . .No Rakes. It's not a crazy concept.

 

http://www.myusualgame.com/2012/12/31/lets-get-rid-of-all-the-rakes/

 

I'd like to see a bunker shot where the expectation for a pro was to get it "on the green" and getting "near the hole" was a sign of excellence.

 

Sometimes you should get a good lie in a bunker. Sometimes you should get a bad lie in a bunker. Just like when you hit the ball in the rough. But, a pristine lie in a bunker 9 times out of 10 because people complain about it being "unfair". . .that's nonsense.

 

Well said. I agree with this.

[williamsnrb]

Honestly, I think this is only debatable on tour, as most golfers aren't nearly as skilled at bunker shots and will still lose at least a stroke most of the time they end up in one. According to that Dan Plan article from yesterday, only 6% of all golfers get to a 5.9 handicap. I know as a 10 there are still bunker shots that I struggle with. I think the majority of golfers (not WRXers) struggle immensely out of the bunker, and they are penal enough, raked or not.

Very fair. Tour only, then?

[williamsnrb]

So basically it`s an argument about being penal vs being fair.

 

It`s hard to find any other sports where a governing body would lean in favor of penalizing the competition. But, if you own a course, you can make your own local rule... I think all else being equal, raking is the most reasonable way to go. And, all of the governing bodies feel the same way.

 

Further, we should do our best to fix all of the damage we do during the course of play. Replacing divots, fixing pitch marks etc. Why should sand be an exception?

 

Sure, sometimes the sand is the safer play... So what? Honestly? What difference does it make? You still have to hit the shot.

Fair points.

[Christen_The_Sloop]

So basically it`s an argument about being penal vs being fair.

 

It`s hard to find any other sports where a governing body would lean in favor of penalizing the competition. But, if you own a course, you can make your own local rule... I think all else being equal, raking is the most reasonable way to go. And, all of the governing bodies feel the same way.

 

Further, we should do our best to fix all of the damage we do during the course of play. Replacing divots, fixing pitch marks etc. Why should sand be an exception?

 

Sure, sometimes the sand is the safer play... So what? Honestly? What difference does it make? You still have to hit the shot.

What do you mean "all governing bodies feel the same way"?

 

The USGA rule book has a section on "Preventing Unnecessary Damage" to the course but doesn't mention bunkers in that section at all.

 

They do say that a bunker should be raked IF a rake is within reasonable proximity.

 

Wasn't it the USGA's decision to put ridges in the bunkers at Oakmont?

 

Don't think it was the USGA that put ridges in the bunkers. It was the rakes they used combined with river sand. And that, as far as I know was the decision of the builder/owner. After the sand was changed sand wouldn't form into deep furrows like it did previously. If they wanted they could go back to it I suppose. Even then, the bunkers were uniform. When you leave footprints /marks in bunkers you add to many variables. It`s as simple as that. It`s never going to be a perfect or easy game. The least you can do is try to make it fair.

[TheCityGame]

You know what's not fair. . .when there's an EXPECTATION that a bunker will be raked and it's not raked.

 

When there's no expectation that bunker will be raked, the game is much fairer.

 

Basically complaining about the un-fairness of unraked bunkers is the same as complaining about the unfairness of unequal lies in the rough. Sometimes you get a good lie and you can advance the ball to the green with spin and sometimes you can't. It's like saying the solution to that is just cut the rough to fairway height.

[Tasals]

Last thing I want to see is 72nd hole of a major come down to 18 and have a guy hit one in a bunker needing par to win only to be stuck in a footprint that wasn't there earlier costing him the tourney.

Last thing I want to see is a 72nd hole of a major where a guy needs a par to win, hits one into a greenside bunker, and has an absolutely perfect lie to give him a shot that he's practiced 1000 times, and perfected, and make an easy par.

 

Bunker shots of 10-20 yards (greenside bunkers, basically). . .in 2016, the you had to get down to the 136th ranked guy to get to someone with a <50% sand save percentage.

 

Bunkers are a joke. If you're going to have them, they should be penal.

 

#noRakes

 

Id rather tournaments and other places change the bunker sand to be fluffier and allow balls to plug more easily than not have them raked. That makes the bunkers more penal, no more perfect lies, but still allows them to be raked so you dont get screwed by another player. I think raking should be allowed, as aside from getting in someones head, you cannot directly impact another golfers performance on the course and allowing people to mess about in bunkers would allow them to do that.

[gvogel]

So basically it`s an argument about being penal vs being fair.

 

It`s hard to find any other sports where a governing body would lean in favor of penalizing the competition. But, if you own a course, you can make your own local rule... I think all else being equal, raking is the most reasonable way to go. And, all of the governing bodies feel the same way.

 

Further, we should do our best to fix all of the damage we do during the course of play. Replacing divots, fixing pitch marks etc. Why should sand be an exception?

 

Sure, sometimes the sand is the safer play... So what? Honestly? What difference does it make? You still have to hit the shot.

 

Bunkers are hazards. Hazards are not supposed to be fair.

[b.helts]

So basically it`s an argument about being penal vs being fair.

 

It`s hard to find any other sports where a governing body would lean in favor of penalizing the competition. But, if you own a course, you can make your own local rule... I think all else being equal, raking is the most reasonable way to go. And, all of the governing bodies feel the same way.

 

Further, we should do our best to fix all of the damage we do during the course of play. Replacing divots, fixing pitch marks etc. Why should sand be an exception?

 

Sure, sometimes the sand is the safer play... So what? Honestly? What difference does it make? You still have to hit the shot.

 

Bunkers are hazards. Hazards are not supposed to be fair.

 

No, but unlike a water hazard or lateral water hazard, you can not take a ball out of a bunker at the cost of a penalty stroke unless you return to your previous spot. But......

 

Imagine a soft bunker, late in the day. You get lucky and get a decent lie but then chunk your bunker shot and don't get the ball out of the bunker. It ends up in a footprint, you lash at it and again, find a footprint. It could take you many shots to find a lie good enough to even get out of the bunker. There is no option but to continue on. It is conceivable you could never get the ball out and would have to withdraw.

[farmer]

By all means, let's make the game harder and slower.

[TheCityGame]

So basically it`s an argument about being penal vs being fair.

 

It`s hard to find any other sports where a governing body would lean in favor of penalizing the competition. But, if you own a course, you can make your own local rule... I think all else being equal, raking is the most reasonable way to go. And, all of the governing bodies feel the same way.

 

Further, we should do our best to fix all of the damage we do during the course of play. Replacing divots, fixing pitch marks etc. Why should sand be an exception?

 

Sure, sometimes the sand is the safer play... So what? Honestly? What difference does it make? You still have to hit the shot.

 

Bunkers are hazards. Hazards are not supposed to be fair.

 

No, but unlike a water hazard or lateral water hazard, you can not take a ball out of a bunker at the cost of a penalty stroke unless you return to your previous spot. But......

 

Imagine a soft bunker, late in the day. You get lucky and get a decent lie but then chunk your bunker shot and don't get the ball out of the bunker. It ends up in a footprint, you lash at it and again, find a footprint. It could take you many shots to find a lie good enough to even get out of the bunker. There is no option but to continue on. It is conceivable you could never get the ball out and would have to withdraw.

1) You can get balls out of footprints.

 

2) you can get out of bunkers in other directions.

 

3) you can take unplayable lies in bunkers and find a better lie.

 

So, this is basically just fake news.

 

You are not entitled to have a lie from which you can attack the pin.

 

And, what you describe does happen, anyway (sort of). . .like when Kevin Na got stuck in the woods.

[2putttom]

By all means, let's make the game harder and slower.

^ this

[TheCityGame]

By all means, let's make the game harder and slower.

^ this

^ that

 

. . .is like the golf equivalent of "won't somebody think about the children?"

 

Like "end of argument. I brought up slow play."

 

Think about that for a second though. . .

 

First of all, no rakes means no raking means FASTER play. And, I'm not just talking about the time it takes to properly rake a bunker. I'm talking about walking around the trap to get the rake, walking back with it, occasionally needing to go in on the low side when your ball is 20 feet away, etc etc. Raking is SLOW. Don't get me started on bunkers that are 30 yards long, 15 yards wide and have 2 rakes around them.

 

Second, take the raking time out of it. . .the slow play you're talking about is what? It's the requirement of additional shots that otherwise wouldnt' have been made because of unraked bunkers. . .

 

So, the situations where a player would normally get into a bunker AND has a lie that he COULD have gotten out of if the bunker had been raked, but now CAN'T get out of because of a bad lie. Well, good players are getting out of footprints already. Bad players aren't getting out of the sand anyway. So, we're talking about some middle ground of golfers who are getting into traps occasionally and occasionally having lies they can't get out of in 1, but they don't have to rake anyway, which usually makes up for the time of a couple of cuts.

 

And, if bunkers become so difficult, players will be forced to play away from them more often. Boom. Faster golf.

 

As to more difficult. . .cry me a river. Everyone's index goes up by .1 and we're all playing each other fair and square again.

[BrianMcG]

I played a course recently that only had waste areas all over the course, including around the greens. I absolutely loved it. Saved a lot of time for players not having to look for rakes and raking sand.

[gvogel]

By all means, let's make the game harder and slower.

 

What I am saying is let's replace water hazards with unraked bunkers. Less lost balls. Less reload from the tee, or less time taken in determining where to drop. Seems pretty simple, and not slower. As far as harder - I think that water is more difficult.

[marmooskapaul]

No raking or maintenance..wouldn't that be a waste area??

 

Also...rake and place...solves all the problems...jk.

[2putttom]

ya because a 25 hcp playin from a green side bunker with tree branches behind your ball is gonna speed up play? A player(s) ball lying in a green side bunker should be afforded the ability to repair the surface of a man made hazard after he/she has played from that spot, takes all of 15 seconds to repair the sand surface.

[2putttom]

No raking or maintenance..wouldn't that be a waste area??

 

Also...rake and place...solves all the problems...jk.

correct

[whiteout73]

No raking or maintenance..wouldn't that be a waste area??

 

Also...rake and place...solves all the problems...jk.

 

Exactly. Rake and place, unless the ball is embedded in its own pitch mark

[vtnerf]

ya because a 25 hcp playin from a green side bunker with tree branches behind your ball is gonna speed up play?

 

A player(s) ball lying in a green side bunker should be afforded the ability to repair the surface of a man made hazard after he/she has played from that spot, takes all of 15 seconds to repair the sand surface.

To the first part: Huh??? Who said anything about tree branches? How often do you find tree branches behind your ball in a bunker??? This is a unicorn example.

 

To the second part: Why? Why should they be afforded repair? And you even state a time (15 seconds) that that would take. Remove that step, remove that time.