'Flipping' and leverage

[Silky]

Great counter arguments that make me try to understand further.

1. The decoupling of the clubhead from the shaft and the player.

What is leverage. Be specific and discuss in the context of the golf swing what it is and why it results in better outcomes.

 

Lemme try to please bph7.

I am currently modifying my exercise bike from flywheel with friction braking to a hub motor as a generator. So I am ready to discuss torque, leverage, MOI, angular acceleration, ....... :)

 

 

What is leverage? Let simplify a bit - no equations.

Torque causes things to turn. How do I create torque? Let use pedaling my exercise bike as an example. My legs are most powerful in pushing by extension. Naturally pushing the pedal down with my legs is the main mean of powering. In this, I generate the most torque pushing down when the crank arms are horizontal - maximum leverage? I generate the least torque in pushing down when the crank arms are near vertical - least leverage? So, leverage has something to do of how to generate the most torque with the same force. It depends on the angle between the lever arm and the applied force vector.

 

In a golf swing, how should I powerfully torque the club to turn around my hands during release?

I suspect the orientation of the club shaft with the coupling pair of forces of the left hand pull and the right hand push from p6 through impact is the key. I am not suggesting pulling and pushing with just the muscles of the hands nor the arms but the whole body - like body extension shooting the lead shoulder upward pulling the lead hand, and pushing and extending the trail arm with your right side.

 

So leverage here is getting yourself into p6 ready to apply the coupling forces. Some posters here advocated freewheeling. I humbly disagree.

Once the clubhead begins to release it is as good as decoupled from the shaft and the player. You cannot apply more force, leverage or weight to the clubhead at impact. If anything the shaft begins to kick forward a bit from p6. It's already been discussed a million times already. What you feel like you are doing and what's really happening are vastly different. If the feel of "leveraging" the club from p6 works for you then great but none of the is really happening.

 

Totally this. Any idea of adding "leverage" or "hit" with the hands at/near impact is an illusion. The clubhead's inertial release causes the clubhead to eventually move too fast for the hands to apply any further force.

 

So, the clubhead is ballistic (move by its own inertia) from when and where?

 

I realize the word "leverage" is detestable in golf in the context of Ernest Jones - swing the clubhead and not leverage by hands.

 

I am in the camp of pivot-driven golf swing with passive arms and hands myself.

 

I am talking about passive torque (cranking) induced by the actions of the pivot through the hands to the club not the active torque (flipping) from the hands and forearms.

 

My understanding of the clubhead drooping and shaft forward bending near impact is from the center of mass of the clubhead being offset from the line of the clubshaft and it is the pulling force along the shaft against the inertia of the clubhead that causes the phenomenon.

 

Great discussions.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

What is leverage. Be specific and discuss in the context of the golf swing what it is and why it results in better outcomes.

 

Lemme try to please bph7.

I am currently modifying my exercise bike from flywheel with friction braking to a hub motor as a generator. So I am ready to discuss torque, leverage, MOI, angular acceleration, ....... :)

 

 

What is leverage? Let simplify a bit - no equations.

Torque causes things to turn. How do I create torque? Let use pedaling my exercise bike as an example. My legs are most powerful in pushing by extension. Naturally pushing the pedal down with my legs is the main mean of powering. In this, I generate the most torque pushing down when the crank arms are horizontal - maximum leverage? I generate the least torque in pushing down when the crank arms are near vertical - least leverage? So, leverage has something to do of how to generate the most torque with the same force. It depends on the angle between the lever arm and the applied force vector.

 

In a golf swing, how should I powerfully torque the club to turn around my hands during release?

I suspect the orientation of the club shaft with the coupling pair of forces of the left hand pull and the right hand push from p6 through impact is the key. I am not suggesting pulling and pushing with just the muscles of the hands nor the arms but the whole body - like body extension shooting the lead shoulder upward pulling the lead hand, and pushing and extending the trail arm with your right side.

 

So leverage here is getting yourself into p6 ready to apply the coupling forces. Some posters here advocated freewheeling. I humbly disagree.

Once the clubhead begins to release it is as good as decoupled from the shaft and the player. You cannot apply more force, leverage or weight to the clubhead at impact. If anything the shaft begins to kick forward a bit from p6. It's already been discussed a million times already. What you feel like you are doing and what's really happening are vastly different. If the feel of "leveraging" the club from p6 works for you then great but none of the is really happening.

 

Totally this. Any idea of adding "leverage" or "hit" with the hands at/near impact is an illusion. The clubhead's inertial release causes the clubhead to eventually move too fast for the hands to apply any further force.

 

Hm, so at which point in the golf swing does the proverbial 'fart in the elevator' get its last chance to leave an unmistakable impression?

[David C]

To be clear, I'm not asking if flipping is bad, or "oh Buddha, will I ever stop flipping?" I'm looking for a 'physics for idiots' type explanation of whether or not the act of flipping negates any of the leverage developed (is that the word I'm looking for?) during the downswing previous to the flip, or scoop.

 

My apologies. I think I don't even know enough to even ask this question correctly, or even clearly. Appreciate the responses, as always.

 

To answer what you may be meaning to ask, yes flipping (for a full swing) is disadvantageous because the clubhead is decelerating before impact.

 

What causes the deceleration, though? Or... but might it be initially accelerating, yet losing mass (due to a disconnect from the rest of the whatever)? And, if so, does the slight acceleration not make up for the greater value loss in mass?

(Where's Irwin Corey when we need him most?)

 

Acceleration/deceleration has nothing to do with mass inherently. Most of the board can't even separate velocity from acceleration. I doubt there's a good answer to this.

 

Maybe PS meant 'weight' not mass. Acceleration and mass are intrinsically linked. Which object can I accelerate to the greatest velocity to send it the furthest distance: rolled up piece of A4 paper, golf ball, 15kg ball of steel? What attitude is your arm taking in the through swing for each object if the goal is to send it as far as possible? Your elbow is not going to be able to support the 15kg ball to 'throw' it, you're probably going to have to eliminate the fulcrum at the elbow and bowl it. Because of the length of the forearm lever between fulcrum and ball v upper arm, and the mass of the object and mass of your shoulder and back muscles compared to your forearm.

 

If you render to a basic mass x radius (squared), and increase the flex at your fulcrums in the right wrist and elbow in downswing you increase your potential leverage (you may well put the club face and path in a sub-optimal position though). You decrease the moment of inertia and the velocity increases. That's why - quite naturally - human beings that throw an object like a golf ball, or swing a club or hockey stick or strike a piñata with any velocity don't 'cast' (in the golf definition of the word cast) into impact. If mass and acceleration were unlinked and moment of inertia unimportant then the still images of elite golfers at p5 that we've all looked at down the years might well be those of people having chucked the right wrist before the right arm.

 

I don't think leverage can be suddenly 'used' effectively, you can't effectively and consistently it seems, consciously lever the ball mid-downswing. But automatically an amount of leverage is being applied, and elite golfers develop it and apply it much better than any novice. The difference I think is generally quite stark.

[mudge]

Great counter arguments that make me try to understand further.

1. The decoupling of the clubhead from the shaft and the player.

What is leverage. Be specific and discuss in the context of the golf swing what it is and why it results in better outcomes.

 

Lemme try to please bph7.

I am currently modifying my exercise bike from flywheel with friction braking to a hub motor as a generator. So I am ready to discuss torque, leverage, MOI, angular acceleration, ....... :)

 

 

What is leverage? Let simplify a bit - no equations.

Torque causes things to turn. How do I create torque? Let use pedaling my exercise bike as an example. My legs are most powerful in pushing by extension. Naturally pushing the pedal down with my legs is the main mean of powering. In this, I generate the most torque pushing down when the crank arms are horizontal - maximum leverage? I generate the least torque in pushing down when the crank arms are near vertical - least leverage? So, leverage has something to do of how to generate the most torque with the same force. It depends on the angle between the lever arm and the applied force vector.

 

In a golf swing, how should I powerfully torque the club to turn around my hands during release?

I suspect the orientation of the club shaft with the coupling pair of forces of the left hand pull and the right hand push from p6 through impact is the key. I am not suggesting pulling and pushing with just the muscles of the hands nor the arms but the whole body - like body extension shooting the lead shoulder upward pulling the lead hand, and pushing and extending the trail arm with your right side.

 

So leverage here is getting yourself into p6 ready to apply the coupling forces. Some posters here advocated freewheeling. I humbly disagree.

Once the clubhead begins to release it is as good as decoupled from the shaft and the player. You cannot apply more force, leverage or weight to the clubhead at impact. If anything the shaft begins to kick forward a bit from p6. It's already been discussed a million times already. What you feel like you are doing and what's really happening are vastly different. If the feel of "leveraging" the club from p6 works for you then great but none of the is really happening.

 

Totally this. Any idea of adding "leverage" or "hit" with the hands at/near impact is an illusion. The clubhead's inertial release causes the clubhead to eventually move too fast for the hands to apply any further force.

 

So, the clubhead is ballistic (move by its own inertia) from when and where?

 

I realize the word "leverage" is detestable in golf in the context of Ernest Jones - swing the clubhead and not leverage by hands.

 

I am in the camp of pivot-driven golf swing with passive arms and hands myself.

 

I am talking about passive torque (cranking) induced by the actions of the pivot through the hands to the club not the active torque (flipping) from the hands and forearms.

 

My understanding of the clubhead drooping and shaft forward bending near impact is from the center of mass of the clubhead being offset from the line of the clubshaft and it is the pulling force along the shaft against the inertia of the clubhead that causes the phenomenon.

 

Great discussions.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "ballistic", but the centripetal/centrifugal acceleration of the clubhead eventually makes it so that it is actually pulling your hands around, not any pushing/slapping/leveraging with the hands it through impact.

[mudge]

What is leverage. Be specific and discuss in the context of the golf swing what it is and why it results in better outcomes.

 

Lemme try to please bph7.

I am currently modifying my exercise bike from flywheel with friction braking to a hub motor as a generator. So I am ready to discuss torque, leverage, MOI, angular acceleration, ....... :)

 

 

What is leverage? Let simplify a bit - no equations.

Torque causes things to turn. How do I create torque? Let use pedaling my exercise bike as an example. My legs are most powerful in pushing by extension. Naturally pushing the pedal down with my legs is the main mean of powering. In this, I generate the most torque pushing down when the crank arms are horizontal - maximum leverage? I generate the least torque in pushing down when the crank arms are near vertical - least leverage? So, leverage has something to do of how to generate the most torque with the same force. It depends on the angle between the lever arm and the applied force vector.

 

In a golf swing, how should I powerfully torque the club to turn around my hands during release?

I suspect the orientation of the club shaft with the coupling pair of forces of the left hand pull and the right hand push from p6 through impact is the key. I am not suggesting pulling and pushing with just the muscles of the hands nor the arms but the whole body - like body extension shooting the lead shoulder upward pulling the lead hand, and pushing and extending the trail arm with your right side.

 

So leverage here is getting yourself into p6 ready to apply the coupling forces. Some posters here advocated freewheeling. I humbly disagree.

Once the clubhead begins to release it is as good as decoupled from the shaft and the player. You cannot apply more force, leverage or weight to the clubhead at impact. If anything the shaft begins to kick forward a bit from p6. It's already been discussed a million times already. What you feel like you are doing and what's really happening are vastly different. If the feel of "leveraging" the club from p6 works for you then great but none of the is really happening.

 

Totally this. Any idea of adding "leverage" or "hit" with the hands at/near impact is an illusion. The clubhead's inertial release causes the clubhead to eventually move too fast for the hands to apply any further force.

 

Hm, so at which point in the golf swing does the proverbial 'fart in the elevator' get its last chance to leave an unmistakable impression?

 

Not sure what you're meaning to ask. Would you be able to rephrase the question?

[Larry111]

I agree with the above idea about the club pulling you around. I don't know all the technical jargon but when you fire the club head it picks up momentum and pulls your right side past the ball and into the finish.

[Silky]

Ballistic, freewheeling, probably mean the same thing.

A 4-stroke engine has only one torque generating stroke to the crankshaft - the combustion stroke. The other strokes are powered by the freewheeling of the flywheel.

So the question was that when and where is the club freewheeling.

Let's consider the centripetal pull. That force can be decomposed into a pulling force along the shaft and another orthogonal component across the shaft. The along the shaft component causes clubhead drooping and forward bending of the shaft while the across the shaft component causes the rotation of the club. As the club rotates to be more aligned with the centripetal force, the leverage is lost, the torque at the lead hand diminished and the club freewheels by its own inertia. This is how I see it. The guy below surely could milk the leverage to the last drop.

 

[dpb5031]

I agree with the above idea about the club pulling you around. I don't know all the technical jargon but when you fire the club head it picks up momentum and pulls your right side past the ball and into the finish.

 

I kind of think of it as pivot pulls arms and club around (freewheeling) to a certain point (around impact) and just past that point the momentum of it all pulls you around to the finish.

 

BPH has it right though, the word leverage means different things to different camps in terms of the golf swing. Can be really confusing.

 

I view leverage as stored energy that you don't want to have dissipate prematurely in the swing. Casting, dumping, stalling, etc., would reduce leverage by my unscientific (but practical) definition.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

Not sure what you're meaning to ask. Would you be able to rephrase the question?

 

Well, it was a matter of timing, but the question has been moved on from. (And, it seemed to make more sense when I wrote it than now. Wine may have been involved.)

 

I think I need to take a Physics class. I think I'd enjoy it quite a bit.

[Lefthook]

The release will slow your hands down. Resisting this slowing down will produce swing speed.

[oikos1]

So does anyone have examples of flippers, either pro or amateur?

[Larry111]

If you scroll up I put a photo of a flipper but he didn't flip until after impact. He was doing a karate chop and his right wrist was going from flexion to extension through impact.

[oscar@wrx]

Isn't flipping just a result of a too early release of the left wrist c0ck?

 

Another cause would be to keep the clubhead from hitting the ground (chunking)

[oikos1]

If you scroll up I put a photo of a flipper but he didn't flip until after impact. He was doing a karate chop and his right wrist was going from flexion to extension through impact.

 

Thank you. I missed that. Who is that or is there a more dynamic (non-still) movement available? I honestly am trying to understand at what point a "flip" first begins to become a "flip".

[AlexCzervic]

To be clear, I'm not asking if flipping is bad, or "oh Buddha, will I ever stop flipping?" I'm looking for a 'physics for idiots' type explanation of whether or not the act of flipping negates any of the leverage developed (is that the word I'm looking for?) during the downswing previous to the flip, or scoop.

 

My apologies. I think I don't even know enough to even ask this question correctly, or even clearly. Appreciate the responses, as always.

 

Lots of ways to swing, even more ways to describe. Generally speaking, early loss of wrist angle is a symptom of not using right arm correctly and/or a poor shoulder turn.

 

AC

[Larry111]

Mike Dunaway

[AlexCzervic]

Mike Dunaway

 

Very good full back.

 

AC

[oikos1]

Mike Dunaway

 

So he is or isn't a flipper?

[dpb5031]

Mike Dunaway

 

So he is or isn't a flipper?

 

Not

[Petunia Sprinkle]

The release will slow your hands down. Resisting this slowing down will produce swing speed.

 

I've heard this before, and it probably happens a lot, but I don't think it's inherently so. Some people flip successfully and some of them find more distance in flipping. Might they not be speeding up the clubhead even more while keeping the hands going at the same speed they would've gone, otherwise? (I'm sure this is the roll-flip to which I'm referring, not the 'scoop'.)

 

Edit: Oh wait, I used to scoop-flip with a very strong grip. I'd probably still do it were it not for arthritis in my left thumb.

[dap]

Flipper or not? Ben Hogan said this guy was the best he saw from tee to green. Really??

 

[moehogan]

My take on the "scoop" variety flip is that many high handicappers subconsciously view the full golf swing as a putt ... square clubhead coming from and delivered down the target line with a vertical club shaft. So, in order to get the shaft vertical, a cast is required to get rid of left wrist c0ck while OTT gets the clubhead moving more down the target line rather than approaching from the inside. The final straw is the adding of right wrist extension to try to create some acceleration since all of the "leverage" has already been spent.

 

I call it "Down-The-Line Disease". IMO, the cure often lies in changing the golfer's "feels" to deliver the clubhead on an arc rather than a straight line. Whether one focuses on the inner or the outer "circle", it's still an arc!

 

[Fort Worth Pro]

The idea that the hands aren't working on the club and applying force and torque on the club is ridiculous as is the idea that centrifugal force moves the club. The hands would have to let go in order to not apply force and torque.

[Larry111]

Mike Dunaway

 

So he is or isn't a flipper?

 

His hands are in the process of flipping through impact but don't finish "the flip" until after impact. It's a reaction, look at it this way: once you fire the bullet from a gun you can't grab it back.

[Larry111]

Mike Austin - This is from a slow motion demonstration of his swing.

 

 

[moehogan]

Mike Dunaway

 

So he is or isn't a flipper?

 

His hands are in the process of flipping through impact but don't finish "the flip" until after impact. It's a reaction, look at it this way: once you fire the bullet from a gun you can't grab it back.

 

So how does he know WHEN to begin the "process of flipping" ... how is "firing the bullet" timed?

[Lefthook]

The idea that the hands aren't working on the club and applying force and torque on the club is ridiculous as is the idea that centrifugal force moves the club. The hands would have to let go in order to not apply force and torque.

 

Well said!

[Larry111]

Austin used a bowstring metaphor too. Dunaway said he hit the ball farther with less energy because he said he was like a running broad jumper and everyone else was like a standing broad jumper.

[Larry111]

Austin at impact.

 

 

[moehogan]

Austin at impact.

 

 

 

Where's the club?