Thoughts on Couch Potatoes Calling in Penalties

[bladehunter]

Lol .... Can we stop and address the farse that is the tradition of attesting a playing partners score ? At this point in time is there any point to someone signing to witnessing your score ( for guys on tv ) ? If we are going to change scores after the fact I just don't see the need to go through this motion. Also don't see the need for walking officials . Could all be called from the tv truck.

 

The problem is last year the USGA passed a rule making solo play ineligible for recording handicap so there's clearly a mixed message.

 

We can't be trusted on our own to play by the rules and record the right score so we need a playing partner to act as a marker but we don't hold the marker responsible if the player doesn't play in accordance with the rules and/or doesn't record the correct score for the round. Then at the pro level we compound the problem by allowing any idiot from their couch or the gallery to call in rule infractions and still don't hold the marker accountable.

 

Agree. I'll take it a step farther. If we are going to penalize a player for somethig after the fact that is missed during the course of play. Why not penalize equally the player who attests the " incorrect "score card ?

[HighSpeedScene]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

[Vindog]

If they adopt the new rules in 2019, these types of situations will hopefully be quickly resolved.

 

Official - "Lexi, we noticed on TV that it appeared you replaced your ball in a different spot than the original one on the green. Did you intend to mark the ball in a different spot?"

 

Lexi - "No, based on where I was standing, I thought I put it back in the same spot."

 

Official - "Thank you, no penalty since the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances, irrespective of any advantage gained."

 

Couch potatoes referees be damned!

 

That proposed rule change refers to spots that must be estimated, not balls that must be REplaced. It hypothetical but I doubt that such change would preclude a penalty stroke in that situation. Picking up a ball and placing it in a different location doesn't seem to fit those parameters.

[jmvargas]

i have no doubt that Lexi did not return the marker correctly but any penalty incurred should have been dealt with DURING the round or at the very latest prior to the signing of the scorecard..

 

a 2-stoke penalty is certainly correct but not 4 strokes..

 

couch potatoes are really not to be blamed totally for situations like these but rather the rule-making bodies for allowing such a rule in the first place..

 

IMHO once the round is played ALL scores are official..

[bladehunter]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

 

So then you see why I question having a marker at all ? It's just more evidence of the game not keeping up with the times , or not keeping the times out of the game. The game is riding the fence. I'm personally for it kicking the times out , but know that because of $ that isn't going to happen. So I think it will have to amend things to keep up with the times.

 

 

But to answer your question on the marker. Why punish the marker ? He/she also signed an incorrect card. If their job was done correctly surely they would have seen an egregious errors ... No?

[new2g0lf]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

If that's the case why did the USGA change the rule regarding solo rounds last year? My understanding is that the marker is responsible for protecting the field and validating the score and round was played under the RoG, if they no longer provide that function why not allow solo rounds to be recorded for handicap.

[jmvargas]

IMHO a marker is only needed for solo rounds...

 

they are redundant otherwise..

 

...and besides, penalising markers have no effect on the player's scores...only players are still responsible for their scores..

[bladehunter]

IMHO a marker is only needed for solo rounds...

 

they are redundant otherwise..

 

...and besides, penalising markers have no effect on the player's scores...only players are still responsible for their scores..

 

 

it might make Markers watch the penalties more closely... I thought that was the rules crowds aim? to protect the field evenly...

[HighSpeedScene]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

If that's the case why did the USGA change the rule regarding solo rounds last year? My understanding is that the marker is responsible for protecting the field and validating the score and round was played under the RoG, if they no longer provide that function why not allow solo rounds to be recorded for handicap.

 

This is NOT a rule of golf. It's a rule for handicaps. Apples, bananas

[new2g0lf]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

If that's the case why did the USGA change the rule regarding solo rounds last year? My understanding is that the marker is responsible for protecting the field and validating the score and round was played under the RoG, if they no longer provide that function why not allow solo rounds to be recorded for handicap.

 

This is NOT a rule of golf. It's a rule for handicaps. Apples, bananas

Not really, a marker is required for tournament play AND for score submission for handicap, different rules same purpose. During a tournament what is the purpose of the marker if not to protect the field and validate the submitted score was played under the RoG?

 

Rule 6-6 - which addresses Scoring in Stroke Play - includes this section:

a. Recording Scores

After each

hole

the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

b. Signing and Returning Score Card

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee

. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

[jmvargas]

IMHO a marker is only needed for solo rounds...

 

they are redundant otherwise..

 

...and besides, penalising markers have no effect on the player's scores...only players are still responsible for their scores..

 

 

it might make Markers watch the penalties more closely... I thought that was the rules crowds aim? to protect the field evenly...

 

 

 

That is also correct but it also kinda presumes that the players still cannot police themselves in what is supposed to be a "gentleman's game"..

 

i guess they figure if we have the volunteers let's use them..

 

 

[bladehunter]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

If that's the case why did the USGA change the rule regarding solo rounds last year? My understanding is that the marker is responsible for protecting the field and validating the score and round was played under the RoG, if they no longer provide that function why not allow solo rounds to be recorded for handicap.

 

This is NOT a rule of golf. It's a rule for handicaps. Apples, bananas

 

 

 

its all part of the usga mess..... its a mixed signal for sure.... Every bit of news we here from teh USGA is bad.... i respect the institution for its history.. But im ashamed of its current administration and their total lck of touch with reality... just this week they remove a Mid-am spot from the walker cup team , and then kill yet another mid-am event..... signal that sends me? says that they want to cater to pros, and juniors aspiring to be pro.. rest of us should shut up and like it....

[Mark_888]

That first bullet point is way off. Remember the dj ruling at the us open ? He had a walking ref and called him over and made a decision and yet it was still overturned. If he didn't have multitude of eyes on him how does that happen ?

The rules official did not see what happened. Only a video review could determine that. That's why they use video review in the NFL, NBA, and MLB. Adding more officials is not the answer.

 

I can tell you that IMO DJ clearly grounded the club just before the ball moved. He should change his putting routine so as to not ground the club before striking the ball (or do so very lightly). I concur with the penalty that DJ got, and I think he is just a crybaby.

[chippa13]

Lol .... Can we stop and address the farse that is the tradition of attesting a playing partners score ? At this point in time is there any point to someone signing to witnessing your score ( for guys on tv ) ? If we are going to change scores after the fact I just don't see the need to go through this motion. Also don't see the need for walking officials . Could all be called from the tv truck.

 

We don't need to change scores if they aren't wrong...

 

I think his point about attesting scores is valid. Pro players are too busy sweating over their own game to pay attention to little things that their competitors do, intentionally or not.

[bladehunter]

That first bullet point is way off. Remember the dj ruling at the us open ? He had a walking ref and called him over and made a decision and yet it was still overturned. If he didn't have multitude of eyes on him how does that happen ?

The rules official did not see what happened. Only a video review could determine that. That's why they use video review in the NFL, NBA, and MLB. Adding more officials is not the answer.

 

I can tell you that IMO DJ clearly grounded the club just before the ball moved. He should change his putting routine so as to not ground the club before striking the ball (or do so very lightly). I concur with the penalty that DJ got, and I think he is just a crybaby.

 

 

Im not debating he DJ ruling... Im saying the ruling would have never happened if there werent multiple eyes watchign and reveiwing it... You said that we needed at home call ins because nobody else was watchng.. Im just offering an example as to why that isnt true...

[new2g0lf]

Lol .... Can we stop and address the farse that is the tradition of attesting a playing partners score ? At this point in time is there any point to someone signing to witnessing your score ( for guys on tv ) ? If we are going to change scores after the fact I just don't see the need to go through this motion. Also don't see the need for walking officials . Could all be called from the tv truck.

 

We don't need to change scores if they aren't wrong...

 

I think his point about attesting scores is valid. Pro players are too busy sweating over their own game to pay attention to little things that their competitors do, intentionally or not.

The same could be said for non-pro's. I'm trying to score low and play ready golf not police my playing buddies foot wedge or ball marking, yet for reporting handicap the USGA now requires he have a playing partner to record his score.

[Mark_888]

i have no doubt that Lexi did not return the marker correctly but any penalty incurred should have been dealt with DURING the round or at the very latest prior to the signing of the scorecard..

 

a 2-stoke penalty is certainly correct but not 4 strokes..

 

couch potatoes are really not to be blamed totally for situations like these but rather the rule-making bodies for allowing such a rule in the first place..

 

IMHO once the round is played ALL scores are official..

I am "sort of" with you, but don't agree that once the round is played all scores are official. There is not enough time for the officials to review the last few holes of a round if that were the case.

 

Instead, just make it that any penalty assessed after the round is completed by the officials, does not incur any penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard.

[Mark_888]

Im not debating he DJ ruling... Im saying the ruling would have never happened if there werent multiple eyes watchign and reveiwing it... You said that we needed at home call ins because nobody else was watchng.. Im just offering an example as to why that isnt true...

The on-course officials are there to make rulings (when asked) based on the rules of golf or course specific rules, not to determine what actually happened.

 

I am saying that I have no problem with video reviews after the round, nor do I have a problem with officials getting "tips" from viewers as to what to investigate in terms of video reviews.

[jmvargas]

i have no doubt that Lexi did not return the marker correctly but any penalty incurred should have been dealt with DURING the round or at the very latest prior to the signing of the scorecard..

 

a 2-stoke penalty is certainly correct but not 4 strokes..

 

couch potatoes are really not to be blamed totally for situations like these but rather the rule-making bodies for allowing such a rule in the first place..

 

IMHO once the round is played ALL scores are official..

I am "sort of" with you, but don't agree that once the round is played all scores are official. There is not enough time for the officials to review the last few holes of a round if that were the case.

 

Instead, just make it that any penalty assessed after the round is completed by the officials, does not incur any penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard.

 

 

 

i like this solution too and hope it will eventually be the permanent one..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

i have no doubt that Lexi did not return the marker correctly but any penalty incurred should have been dealt with DURING the round or at the very latest prior to the signing of the scorecard..

 

a 2-stoke penalty is certainly correct but not 4 strokes..

 

couch potatoes are really not to be blamed totally for situations like these but rather the rule-making bodies for allowing such a rule in the first place..

 

IMHO once the round is played ALL scores are official..

I am "sort of" with you, but don't agree that once the round is played all scores are official. There is not enough time for the officials to review the last few holes of a round if that were the case.

 

Instead, just make it that any penalty assessed after the round is completed by the officials, does not incur any penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard.

 

 

easy problem to solve... make the signing of the card the next morning before the next rounds start... that gives the comitte all night

[CameronStewart1988]

Say your playing a round with a friend in a competition, there's a few folk watching by the side. You crouch down to place your ball by your marker but then one of the guys watching says "oi, he/she moved his/her ball when placing it."

 

You think you've placed it properly, your playing partner has no evidence against not believing you so surely you'd continue rather than get into a discussion with the chap watching?

 

Is this game not built on honesty and pride?

 

If a TV potatoe happens to scan a replay and notice a small infringement then they need to accept the players playing didn't notice or feel any rules had been broken on purpose.

 

TV is to help exposure, not to bring the integrity of the game under scrutiny.

[bladehunter]

Say your playing a round with a friend in a competition, there's a few folk watching by the side. You crouch down to place your ball by your marker but then one of the guys watching says "oi, he/she moved his/her ball when placing it."

 

You think you've placed it properly, your playing partner has no evidence against not believing you so surely you'd continue rather than get into a discussion with the chap watching?

 

Is this game not built on honesty and pride?

 

If a TV potatoe happens to scan a replay and notice a small infringement then they need to accept the players playing didn't notice or feel any rules had been broken on purpose.

 

TV is to help exposure, not to bring the integrity of the game under scrutiny.

 

 

this is my view as well... otherwise the rules are different for TV game and the one i play.. and the USGA hasnt announced bifurcation...yet

[sui generis]

Say your playing a round with a friend in a competition, there's a few folk watching by the side. You crouch down to place your ball by your marker but then one of the guys watching says "oi, he/she moved his/her ball when placing it."

 

You think you've placed it properly, your playing partner has no evidence against not believing you so surely you'd continue rather than get into a discussion with the chap watching?

 

Is this game not built on honesty and pride?

 

If a TV potatoe happens to scan a replay and notice a small infringement then they need to accept the players playing didn't notice or feel any rules had been broken on purpose.

 

TV is to help exposure, not to bring the integrity of the game under scrutiny.

 

TV golf's raison d'etre is to sell Viagra and Buicks to middle aged white men.

[new2g0lf]

Say your playing a round with a friend in a competition, there's a few folk watching by the side. You crouch down to place your ball by your marker but then one of the guys watching says "oi, he/she moved his/her ball when placing it."

 

You think you've placed it properly, your playing partner has no evidence against not believing you so surely you'd continue rather than get into a discussion with the chap watching?

 

Is this game not built on honesty and pride?

 

If a TV potatoe happens to scan a replay and notice a small infringement then they need to accept the players playing didn't notice or feel any rules had been broken on purpose.

 

TV is to help exposure, not to bring the integrity of the game under scrutiny.

 

A variant of this is if same situation happens at 7:30 am during a pro tournament when it's not being broadcast versus at 4:00pm when every golf couch potato is watching. The message is we only care about rules infractions that viewers might see, the rest can go unpunished.

[jmvargas]

i have always been a stickler for the rules when playing in competition or when a wager is involved as i believe this is how the game should be played..

 

i have ,however, always given the benefit of the doubt in favour of my playing opponents...

 

there have been cases however that i get paired with notoriously dishonest players in which case i have no choice but to watch them carefully which i don't really enjoy..

 

and of course i will never wager with any of these type..

 

but that's just me.

[bladehunter]

Say your playing a round with a friend in a competition, there's a few folk watching by the side. You crouch down to place your ball by your marker but then one of the guys watching says "oi, he/she moved his/her ball when placing it."

 

You think you've placed it properly, your playing partner has no evidence against not believing you so surely you'd continue rather than get into a discussion with the chap watching?

 

Is this game not built on honesty and pride?

 

If a TV potatoe happens to scan a replay and notice a small infringement then they need to accept the players playing didn't notice or feel any rules had been broken on purpose.

 

TV is to help exposure, not to bring the integrity of the game under scrutiny.

 

A variant of this is if same situation happens at 7:30 am during a pro tournament when it's not being broadcast versus at 4:00pm when every golf couch potato is watching. The message is we only care about rules infractions that viewers might see, the rest can go unpunished.

 

 

oh thats exactly it... its about covering their butts on Twitter..... thats all... otherwise the self policed status quo would continue on ...

[Mark_888]

Say your playing a round with a friend in a competition, there's a few folk watching by the side. You crouch down to place your ball by your marker but then one of the guys watching says "oi, he/she moved his/her ball when placing it."

 

You think you've placed it properly, your playing partner has no evidence against not believing you so surely you'd continue rather than get into a discussion with the chap watching?

 

Is this game not built on honesty and pride?

 

If a TV potatoe happens to scan a replay and notice a small infringement then they need to accept the players playing didn't notice or feel any rules had been broken on purpose.

 

TV is to help exposure, not to bring the integrity of the game under scrutiny.

There is very little personal integrity to the game of golf anymore. There is no other sport that I know that relies to such a large degree of player honesty to call infractions on themselves. What you propose will just lead to more cheating, which if obvious to TV viewers, will lead to the demise of the sport.

 

Unfortunately, many people (including professional golfers) take pride in winning, not so much in their personal integrity.

[CameronStewart1988]

Say your playing a round with a friend in a competition, there's a few folk watching by the side. You crouch down to place your ball by your marker but then one of the guys watching says "oi, he/she moved his/her ball when placing it."

 

You think you've placed it properly, your playing partner has no evidence against not believing you so surely you'd continue rather than get into a discussion with the chap watching?

 

Is this game not built on honesty and pride?

 

If a TV potatoe happens to scan a replay and notice a small infringement then they need to accept the players playing didn't notice or feel any rules had been broken on purpose.

 

TV is to help exposure, not to bring the integrity of the game under scrutiny.

 

A variant of this is if same situation happens at 7:30 am during a pro tournament when it's not being broadcast versus at 4:00pm when every golf couch potato is watching. The message is we only care about rules infractions that viewers might see, the rest can go unpunished.

 

That is very true, great point. In that case armchair callers need to be ignored as its clearly not fair. If it bugs the PGA/LPGA so much they could have a few referees reviewing continuous footage but it would have to include the first group to the last. But then that suggests players are dishonest which is rubbish.

[Mark_888]

TV golf's raison d'etre is to sell Viagra and Buicks to middle aged white men.

When you have more than 100 golfers on the USA Men's PGA Tour that earn $1 million per year in prize money (not including endorsement money), then someone has pay for that.

[CameronStewart1988]

Do you guys think players cheat more often than we think? I'd like to think most PGA and LPGA players would be first to call a foul on themselves.