Counter Balanced Driver

[Kingcat990]

Good day fellow members. I'm interested in building a heavier driver. Heavier overall. Looking to build a driver from components where I can stack a healthy amount of weight on the head and balance it back with a counter balanced grip. I'm doing this mainly out of curiosity and mostly because I happen to have tried a heavier driver with better results. Not sure on the drivers exact weight, but when I picked it up and swung it around, I could feel the mass on it. It felt comfortable. The head i'm looking at is 448cc with 3 neutral weight ports to distribute weight evenly with simple weights and I want to pair it with a 75-80gm S flex shaft and counter balance it back with an unknown amount of weight. Thinking I can get the head to 202-210gm +/- paired with the 75-80gm shaft and maybe 80-100gm in the grip at a length of 44.5".

 

Has anyone attempted something along the lines of this? Or can give me any professional insight? I'm open to criticism both positive and negative.

[GOLF4373]

The invented nunchuk shaft is very counter balanced as it is and weighs like 105 grams I think. You won't have to add much weight to the head with it and you'll have a similar setup. There are also those diamana blueboard shafts that are 105 ish grams that are basically the same as the nunchuk. The one tiger was playing for a while, heavy in the butt end so the swingweight isn't off the charts. Those shafts are engineered to work well with the heavy overall weight of the club when installed. Just a suggestion

[Stuart_G]

If you mainly just want to increase the total static weight, go with a heavier shaft (or add weight to the shaft such as wrapping lead tape around it - below the grip or a bit more toward the middle). Weight at the butt end will not necessarily help counteract large amounts of weight at the head - which will result in a large club MOI regardless of the counterbalance weight. Heaviest would be going with steel - TT Dynamic Gold wood shaft.

 

However, 200-210 isn't really all that heavy when it comes to head weight so if you want to experiment with different amounts of butt weight, then go ahead. Just realize most people who do find that counterbalancing helps with the full swing, use much smaller amounts. I believe more on the order of 15-40 gm or so. At least I've not heard of anyone using that much. But with something like the Tour Lock butt weights, you can play around with any amount you want to right there on the range to dial in the best amount for you.

[baudi]

Bear in mind that counter balancing can soften the shaft in the mid section. Hence it may require a stiffer shaft than normal.

I'v e done many clubs. Big supporter of cb for the wedges, driver and putter.

[Stuart_G]

Bear in mind that counter balancing can soften the shaft in the mid section. Hence it may require a stiffer shaft than normal.

I'v e done many clubs. Big supporter of cb for the wedges, driver and putter.

 

Weight added to the butt end of the club has absolutely no impact on the stiffness of the shaft anywhere along it's length.

 

Now, It might change the swing itself and therefore the loading forces the player applies to the shaft - and in turn impact the amount of loading one might feel. But that's going to be completely different for each individual and not something you can predict or generalize about. But it can't change the actual stiffness of the shaft.

[baudi]

Hi Stuart, always enjoy your postings so I will not go into a yes/no debate. Please allow me to explain my findings- been counterweighting for 4 years now.

My experience is that I can feel the backweight (60gr-180gr) working on the shaft of all the putters I built.

My drivershaft 75 x Accra Tour Z (pretty stout) really softened up with 27gr in the top. The club parameters changed, swing did not.

 

I am pretty sure others will have felt a similar effect. Unsure, but I think I spotted here on this forum.

[Stuart_G]

No one is doubting what you feel, but what you feel, and why you feel it are two different things. The physics isn't really all that complicated when it comes to what actually effects the stiffness of the shaft (assuming the swing really is identical - think of the case of a robot swinging the club). Changes to equipment specs frequently result in changes to the swing - usually in a way that the player can't feel or are not aware of. Just because you think you are making the same swing doesn't mean that it really is. That's really what the vast majority of club fitting is really about - finding the equipment specs that allow the player to generate the best (and most consistent) swing they are capable of.

 

So, that leaves the question of how do you really know the swing didn't change? You would need pretty accurate measurements to be able to validate that. Usually it's fairly clear that the swing did change just by looking at the impact conditions from a launch monitor but even that doesn't tell the whole story, just one small snapshot.

[baudi]

Well yes. After building equipment for 22 years and practicing the swing for over 30 years - one gets sensitivity for what happens with a club during a swing.

Please understand it is a subtle effect yet noticeable. It makes sense though: the shaft stresses in two directions towards the butt and the tip. Mass in the butt will affect this stress.

Not alone in my Pov for flex influence: Texsport has a similar idea

http://www.golfwrx.c...x#entry15102816

 

Edit: not valid.

 

Hope I am still on the safe side of avoiding a yes/no debate :-)

[Kingcat990]

Thanks for the replies guys. I talked to the component company, looks like I can get the head to 212gm alone just on weights before potentially hot melting. He even suggested that adding that much weight will make a significant impact to tip flex. I swing a driver 103/105mph consistently with a smooth tempo. I'm gravitating towards the GD ADDI or ADTP in a 7/8 weight in S, possibly X if the tip will be effected as much as I have been warned.

 

With the adjustable head and adjustable counter balance I feel like I can find a middle ground. But I do have overall concerns of the shaft profile skewing out to unknown territories.

[Stuart_G]

Well yes. After building equipment for 22 years and practicing the swing for over 30 years - one gets sensitivity for what happens with a club during a swing.

Please understand it is a subtle effect yet noticeable. It makes sense though: the shaft stresses in two directions towards the butt and the tip. Mass in the butt will affect this stress.

 

Hope I am still on the safe side of avoiding a yes/no debate :-)

 

As I said before, I don't doubt what you are feeling. But feel and 'real' frequently don't match when it comes to the golf swing. So my only contention is just the reasoning for the cause and physics behind your reasoning.

 

If you are interested and want to go into more detail about why your reasoning of the physics is not accurate, I'd be happy to elaborate. But if you want to avoid that discussion, that's fine as well.

 

(and as an aside - nothing in Texsport's post was really contrary to my explanation either)

[baudi]

Technical adventures like the OP picks up are praised and hailed. Basically, a club is like a racing bike or sailing boat: to make it fit is one step; tuning and adding (micro) features to improve its performance is a completely different level. eg. My putter has been changed over 50 times. Now, it is nearing perfection I should manufacture an exact copy.

 

Stuart, you are absolutely correct: my reasoning of physics is not accurate at all here. Actually, for this matter I do not rely upon physics at all.

There is a just heuristic experience of a wobbling sensed motion I sensed in many counterbalanced clubs I produced. Mainly putters and wedges. My explanation however, is not supported by any measurable fact at hand. Hence, it may well be poor deduction. Please keep in mind that it is not about swing changes. With my putter here and now I do feel 80 grams of counterweight pressing on the shaft in motion.

 

The day I stop listening to others my learning curve will be blocked. So yes please bring it on! Not just for me but also the common knowledge of the readers.

[Texsport]

Well yes. After building equipment for 22 years and practicing the swing for over 30 years - one gets sensitivity for what happens with a club during a swing.

Please understand it is a subtle effect yet noticeable. It makes sense though: the shaft stresses in two directions towards the butt and the tip. Mass in the butt will affect this stress.

 

Hope I am still on the safe side of avoiding a yes/no debate :-)

 

As I said before, I don't doubt what you are feeling. But feel and 'real' frequently don't match when it comes to the golf swing. So my only contention is just the reasoning for the cause and physics behind your reasoning.

 

If you are interested and want to go into more detail about why your reasoning of the physics is not accurate, I'd be happy to elaborate. But if you want to avoid that discussion, that's fine as well.

 

(and as an aside - nothing in Texsport's post was really contrary to my explanation either)

 

 

 

 

I've recently counterbalanced my my Epic SubZero driver with a Tensei Orange V2 60TX shaft.

 

I'll explain it backwards

 

I started with a 46" length.

 

(If I were going to set up a counter balanced 44" club, I'd likely start with a heavy shaft. I'v

e seen 112gm Prototype shafts made for Sergio arcia, a proponent of counter balanced clubs. I think he currently plays a 90 gm shaft in his driver.)

 

****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

1 - I added weight to the head to bring the club up to D-9 swing weight.That weight felt good hitting shots with it.

 

2 - I installed a Buccieri Mid Size counter weight grip (The club was then 47" but I can choke up 1" if I want to.)

 

3 - Swing weight was then D-3 @ 47".

 

Extra weight in the head makes the shaft bend more = softer flex

 

However, balance point shifted higher up shaft - which has effect of slightly stiffening shaft - Nicklaus used S shaft in counter balanced driver.

 

(Only problem with 44" club is being able to add enough weight to head to get normal swing weight. At some point I'd begin to worry about breaking the shaft, if too much weight is added to the head.)

 

Also, shortening a shaft generally makes it stiffer, so may have to start with softer shaft.

 

Texsport

 

 

P S On the subject of shorter vs longer driver shafts, my theory is that shorter shafts may be more accurate, however, if you watch the LPGA players closely, you'll notice that the smaller players generally have what appears to be very long driver shafts compared to their heights. This tells me that they get more distance that way, and rely on smooth and proper swing technique to handle the longer shafted drivers. Most men use muscle rather than refined swing technique with drivers. Bottom line - a better swing allows longer driver shafts and more distance.

 

Additionally, LPGA courses,similar to what most male amateurs play, do not have punishing fairway hazards. A premium on distance over accuracy seems logical for such golf courses. If more accuracy is required, I gravitate toward a power fade tee ball - what you see from some of the longest PGA Tour players - Dustin Johnson, Bubba Watson, and John Rahm.

[Stuart_G]

Extra weight in the head makes the shaft bend more = softer flex

 

However, balance point shifted higher up shaft - which has effect of slightly stiffening shaft - Nicklaus used S shaft in counter balanced driver.

 

Yes, added weight will soften up the shaft but the balance point is irrelevant only the amount of weight added and where it is added. But adding weight will only soften the shaft. There is no way to add weight that will stiffen the shaft.

 

Also, shortening a shaft generally makes it stiffer, so may have to start with softer shaft.

 

Shortening from the butt will stiffen it in theory - but that's assuming the head weight remains unchanged. But the reality is that the amount the stiffness increases is quite small even for 2", not even close to a full flex. The change to the head weight will by far be the much more dominant influence on what happens to the stiffness. Now if you tip the shaft instead of shortening it from the butt end, that's a different story.

 

 

P S On the subject of shorter vs longer driver shafts, my theory is that shorter shafts may be more accurate, however, if you watch the LPGA players closely, you'll notice that the smaller players generally have what appears to be very long driver shafts compared to their heights. This tells me that they get more distance that way, and rely on smooth and proper swing technique to handle the longer shafted drivers. Most men use muscle rather than refined swing technique with drivers. Bottom line - a better swing allows longer driver shafts and more distance.

 

Yes, no question that a better swing AND (more importantly) better general athletic ability will allow for a player to manage a longer playing length. No one makes it to the pro ranks w/o having some natural ability and affinity for the game.

[exitlowandleft]

VERY informative...I do have a question however...what are the advantages of playing a counterbalanced shaft?..is it just to reduce swingweight or does it actually help you to swing the club faster?..thank you and sorry if this is a dumb question..lol

[Stuart_G]

VERY informative...I do have a question however...what are the advantages of playing a counterbalanced shaft?..is it just to reduce swingweight or does it actually help you to swing the club faster?..thank you and sorry if this is a dumb question..lol

 

Primarily it is just to reduce swing weight - or more accurately allow manageable swing weights at the longer playing lengths. Really no other inherent advantage. Just one way to get the right combination of total weight and swing weight for a given playing length.

 

It's not the same as using true counterbalance weights in (or under) the grip where the weight is concentrated under the hands. That's a different counterbalance concept.