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Mike Davis on Distance


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From the most recent Golf Digest:

 

"When I look back at the USGA over the decades, my biggest regret would be what has happened with distance. It's been the thing, probably more than any, that has been the most harmful to the game. Billions of dollars have been spent to alter golf courses - and for what?...

 

"Golf is the only sport I can think of where the equipment changes have continually affected the playing field and the size of it. That can't be the right thing."

 

"At a recent innovation symposium in Vancouver, I imagined a future that might have variable-distance golf balls, a concept that could be used under the current Rules of Golf. It sounds radical, but if you could have, for example, an 18-hole golf course sitting on, say, only 70 acres, it would take you only a couple of hours to play it. And, by the way, it would be cheaper to maintain because of less labor, less fuel for the mowers, less irrigation and fertilizer. You start to say, that makes sense. And in theory those cost savings could be passed along to the golfer."

 

"Beyond the distance, there also has been the issue of golf equipment making the game easier to play. Innovation has had so many wonderful benefits for the millions who play the game. We all love getting that new driver that flies longer and straighter. It's magical. On the other hand, innovation has de-skilled the the game at the elite professional and amateur level."

 

Finally, an acknowledgement that the USGA and equipment manufacturers have made the game unnecessarily expensive and longer to play. But more importantly, highly skilled players are not as tested as formerly on their tee to green skill.

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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What about the way some courses are set up crazily difficult with greens running 12+? Back before "technology" did they set up courses and greens the same way?

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What about the way some courses are set up crazily difficult with greens running 12+? Back before "technology" did they set up courses and greens the same way?

 

Well, that's the thing. Because it is easier for professionals to play from tee to green, the course set-up people have made greens crazy fast to protect par. Many greens constructed before 1990 had slopes that never contemplated modern green speeds. Some places are unplayable.

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Many venues cut and roll the fairways. The average carry distance on Tour is in the 270 range, but almost every week you can see how much roll these guys get. Earlier this year I was watching a rain soaked event and many of the drives were in the 265 - 275 range. And, for the average golfer technology hasn't made a huge difference. The average drive is around 215 yards.

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BiFurification is the future. They should also make short courses with balls that fly 70%.

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Ill be Dipped.. Mike Davis had a logical thought.... truly never thought this day would come... now just follow through with it !!! bring the driver and the ball back !

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One thing is for sure... it would have been a heckuva lot cheaper to limit the distance on balls than it has been to lengthen golf courses to keep up with how far they're hitting it. So, they figured out an expensive way to keep up with the distance changes, but today's ball goes straighter with less spin and it's taken some of the skill of shot control out of the game.

 

Golf has been on a steady upward curve as regards equipment improvements since the early 1900's. I think they need to find a happy medium and find a way to keep it there. A lot of the improvements have been great for the game, but the cost of maintaining a course is rising, and the cost of buying new equipment has gone through the roof. At some point, they've got to figure out a way to get it under control.

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Ill be Dipped.. Mike Davis had a logical thought.... truly never thought this day would come... now just follow through with it !!! bring the driver and the ball back !

 

That ship has sailed believe me.

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If you think about it though, Most if not all pros hit the ball straight or not too far off center. So making courses narrower would be an option. But how can you do that without making golf courses primarily designed for Professional golfers? You just cant. Think of what Augusta would look like if you really wanted to make it difficult for the pro's. Just think of the Masters with US Open setups. Not fun to watch and probably not as fun to play. So what are the superintendants to do? Make the courses longer of course. Thats about all you can do. So instead of the pro hitting a wedge in, now they have to hit a 7 or 8 iron. For me all they are doing is making it realistic in terms of the driving distance of most professionals now so that the viewing audience can feel in some way that their game is similar to what they see on television. Technology is in part a culprit but until other wise, all you can do is push back the tee boxes.

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I was watching the Wells Fargo in person yesterday, and I gotta say this:

 

While the fairways were cut short, and it had been dry for a while (it rained pretty hard last night, with showers coming and going today)....these guys were FLYING it over 300 regulary, and I'm not saying one or 2...but, I saw a couple FLY over 300 into a good 20 mph headwind. And, hitting 8 irons into greens into that same 20 mph headwind from 170.

 

Does the ball fly too far???

 

ABSOLUTELY!

 

This is a game with which I am unfamiliar

 

And, I truly agree...that the greens speeds becoming faster is about the only way to protect par nowadays.

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I gotta be honest. When I watch the pros play anymore I just can't really relate to what they are doing for the most part. IF the distances and the carries they quote on TV are true then their game is so different than mine it's like a different sport.

 

I have never been a long hitter, and I am certainly not as long as I used to be because of some health issues that I am working on. But I used to feel like I was playing the same sport. Watch some of the old golf matches like Shell's and you will see Sam Snead hitting a 7 iron 150 yards. Now a 7 iron goes 190-200 it seems.

 

The obsession with distance and how it is presented on TV has actually diminished my desire to watch. I still like watching the majors and the Ryder Cup, but not that much else really interests me any longer.

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Stop trying to protect par. Par is an arbitrary number. It doesn't matter if people are even par or 20 under it. Conditions and course setup dictate the relation to par. They all play the same course. I for one like to witness greatness. And I can't stand watching the US open watching bogey after bogey. If I wanna see a 72-80 posted I'll go watch my golf group play.

 

And if you wanna shrink the game real fast. Take 20 yards off the golf ball. Nothing would infuriate golfers more than having just spent 500$ on a driver and have to watch his 250 yard drive now go 230. That ship has sailed. Golf is hard enough as it is.

 

Dial back technology. We all just witnessed Nike exit hard goods. It would be the single biggest decline for any manufacturer. Hmm i can hear Jim Nantz now. "The all new pro-v1. Sure it's shorter than last years. But you are great and you don't need that 10 yards anyway!"

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He "imagines the future" that others have been talking about for a dozen or more years...... Nicklaus actually did something about it by having different length golf balls but the concept failed. I wish Mr. Davis would stop imagining and just go away. I'm not blaming him for anything but I don't think he's done anything to grow the game, increase the game's popularity, or made the USGA Tournaments any better......

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Many venues cut and roll the fairways. The average carry distance on Tour is in the 270 range, but almost every week you can see how much roll these guys get. Earlier this year I was watching a rain soaked event and many of the drives were in the 265 - 275 range. And, for the average golfer technology hasn't made a huge difference. The average drive is around 215 yards.

 

Spot on.

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I thought the ban on high COR drivers years ago was supposed to address the distance issue. What happened?

 

The combination of new testing and limits on drivers as well as balls did in fact arrest the sudden uptick in distance that happened when titanium and urethane arrived on the scene in the 90's. Over the past decade-plus distances have resumed the slow upward increase that has been happening for decades, attributable to gradually improving technique and athletic ability.

 

But at this point it is far too late for USGA to ever claw back the 30-yard, almost overnight increase that happened while they had their head stuck in the sand about the titanium and urethane revolution that was quite obvious to the rest of the world.

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Stop trying to protect par. Par is an arbitrary number. It doesn't matter if people are even par or 20 under it. Conditions and course setup dictate the relation to par. They all play the same course. I for one like to witness greatness. And I can't stand watching the US open watching bogey after bogey. If I wanna see a 72-80 posted I'll go watch my golf group play.

 

And if you wanna shrink the game real fast. Take 20 yards off the golf ball. Nothing would infuriate golfers more than having just spent 500$ on a driver and have to watch his 250 yard drive now go 230. That ship has sailed. Golf is hard enough as it is.

 

Dial back technology. We all just witnessed Nike exit hard goods. It would be the single biggest decline for any manufacturer. Hmm i can hear Jim Nantz now. "The all new pro-v1. Sure it's shorter than last years. But you are great and you don't need that 10 yards anyway!"

 

I totally agree with this. We don't add weights to the NFL football so that it's harder for the pros to throw, or put lead in their shoes so they don't run too fast (just because their game is so far beyond the average joe). Let the pros play to -20 in a tourney. But don't stifle innovation more than already is being done.

 

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He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

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I gotta be honest. When I watch the pros play anymore I just can't really relate to what they are doing for the most part. IF the distances and the carries they quote on TV are true then their game is so different than mine it's like a different sport.

 

I have never been a long hitter, and I am certainly not as long as I used to be because of some health issues that I am working on. But I used to feel like I was playing the same sport. Watch some of the old golf matches like Shell's and you will see Sam Snead hitting a 7 iron 150 yards. Now a 7 iron goes 190-200 it seems.

 

The obsession with distance and how it is presented on TV has actually diminished my desire to watch. I still like watching the majors and the Ryder Cup, but not that much else really interests me any longer.

 

I feel the same way. I'm a decent player and I've always been able hit it pretty good (short game not so much). I hit my driver probably 280 ish and a good one goes just over 300. My iron game is good. Nothing spectacular all around. but like you said, I did feel like i was at least playing the same sport.

 

I go to the match play and valero most years. the last couple of years for some reason it just seemed like it hit me that I am not physically capable of coming close to doing what these guys do. It is insane to watch DJ, Rory, Rahm, Pieters carry a driver over 300 yards hitting absolute moon balls! It is glorious to behold, but we aren't speaking the same language, lol

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People expect to be able to do what pros do in golf for reasons I don't understand. The average person, even if they are a good athlete, can't throw a fastball as fast as a MLB pitcher throws a slow curve. What percentage of people can throw a fastball 75mph? That's a slow curve in the pro game.

 

What percentage of people can hit 45/50 three pointers, any decent shooting guard will do that in the gym every day practicing

 

How fast do you run the 100m dash in?

 

people shouldn't be surprised pros carry driver 280 when they carry it 230. That's proportional to other sports

 

 

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He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

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People expect to be able to do what pros do in golf for reasons I don't understand. The average person, even if they are a good athlete, can't throw a fastball as fast as a MLB pitcher throws a slow curve. What percentage of people can throw a fastball 75mph? That's a slow curve in the pro game.

 

What percentage of people can hit 45/50 three pointers, any decent shooting guard will do that in the gym every day practicing

 

How fast do you run the 100m dash in?

 

people shouldn't be surprised pros carry driver 280 when they carry it 230. That's proportional to other sports

 

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I never said that I expect to be able to do what the pros do Just that it is eye opening how much better they are than people realize. I have no delusions and am quite happy with my own game. I think i was more trying to make the point that most people really have no idea how good these guys are. They are savants in their profession, no different that engineers building machines that humans can fly into space. It's awesome to watch if you can truly appreciate it. maybe i could have worded that differently. have a good one

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He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

 

Let's say they rolled the ball back so that if you play from 6500 yards, that's a real test for you. If the pros played from 6900 yards, that would be a real test for them. The course super could set up the regular tees at 5800 yards, and that would be plenty long for the average golfer.

 

So, the upshot is, everyone is playing a shorter course. And that takes less maintenance, and also takes less time to play. Pretty soon, new courses would be built at no more than 7,000 yards. That would save 1,000 yards of maintenance, and make golf faster to play.

 

Of course, they could change the ball so that pros would be tested at 6400 yards, you would play 6,000 yards, and me, the average golfer, would play at 5300 yards (the ladies tees). Golf could take less time, and courses would be less expensive.

 

Maybe some courses would stay long, and you would play the present ball on those courses. But other course could be short, and a new "Tier II" ball would be used on shorter courses. If you played a "Tier II" course, you would expect to play it in 3-1/2 hours. This could be a good thing, no?

 

And by the way, they could reduce the size of a driver head for elite players to less than 220 cc - and that would put more skill into the long game.

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He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

 

Let's say they rolled the ball back so that if you play from 6500 yards, that's a real test for you. If the pros played from 6900 yards, that would be a real test for them. The course super could set up the regular tees at 5800 yards, and that would be plenty long for the average golfer.

 

So, the upshot is, everyone is playing a shorter course. And that takes less maintenance, and also takes less time to play. Pretty soon, new courses would be built at no more than 7,000 yards. That would save 1,000 yards of maintenance, and make golf faster to play.

 

Of course, they could change the ball so that pros would be tested at 6400 yards, you would play 6,000 yards, and me, the average golfer, would play at 5300 yards (the ladies tees). Golf could take less time, and courses would be less expensive.

 

Maybe some courses would stay long, and you would play the present ball on those courses. But other course could be short, and a new "Tier II" ball would be used on shorter courses. If you played a "Tier II" course, you would expect to play it in 3-1/2 hours. This could be a good thing, no?

 

And by the way, they could reduce the size of a driver head for elite players to less than 220 cc - and that would put more skill into the long game.

 

reducing the ball is a short term fix. People will continue to get faster and stronger. If we have learned anything from the past 100yrs of sports we've learned that. So you dial back the ball, reduce courses yardage, and 20yrs from now you dial back the ball again because people have started hitting the ball too far again?

 

It's like in the 100 meter dash if they decided 10 seconds should be the winning time. So every 20yrs they just add 10 meters to the race because people have gotten too fast.

 

If they want to curtail distance in the pro game, play on shorter more penal courses

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He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

 

Let's say they rolled the ball back so that if you play from 6500 yards, that's a real test for you. If the pros played from 6900 yards, that would be a real test for them. The course super could set up the regular tees at 5800 yards, and that would be plenty long for the average golfer.

 

So, the upshot is, everyone is playing a shorter course. And that takes less maintenance, and also takes less time to play. Pretty soon, new courses would be built at no more than 7,000 yards. That would save 1,000 yards of maintenance, and make golf faster to play.

 

Of course, they could change the ball so that pros would be tested at 6400 yards, you would play 6,000 yards, and me, the average golfer, would play at 5300 yards (the ladies tees). Golf could take less time, and courses would be less expensive.

 

Maybe some courses would stay long, and you would play the present ball on those courses. But other course could be short, and a new "Tier II" ball would be used on shorter courses. If you played a "Tier II" course, you would expect to play it in 3-1/2 hours. This could be a good thing, no?

 

And by the way, they could reduce the size of a driver head for elite players to less than 220 cc - and that would put more skill into the long game.

 

But the average Joe does not need a 7300-7600+ yard course anyways so why build it if there is no chance to host a tour event anyways? Coore/Crenshaw built a track here in 2006 that tips out at 6850 with super wide fairways. I've played it close over 50 times my best round is a +2 73 as anywhere from 1-3 index. Played it with tons of good players no one lights it up. In fact the course record is -6 65 and it has hosted mini tour events state am tourneys etc etc. Quite simply 98% of the time these super long courses do not need to be built and really are just the byproduct of bragging rights and ego's for owners and designers.

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[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/175527-one-putts-road-to-redemption-bag-04262014/"]WITB Link[/url]

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He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

 

Let's say they rolled the ball back so that if you play from 6500 yards, that's a real test for you. If the pros played from 6900 yards, that would be a real test for them. The course super could set up the regular tees at 5800 yards, and that would be plenty long for the average golfer.

 

So, the upshot is, everyone is playing a shorter course. And that takes less maintenance, and also takes less time to play. Pretty soon, new courses would be built at no more than 7,000 yards. That would save 1,000 yards of maintenance, and make golf faster to play.

 

Of course, they could change the ball so that pros would be tested at 6400 yards, you would play 6,000 yards, and me, the average golfer, would play at 5300 yards (the ladies tees). Golf could take less time, and courses would be less expensive.

 

Maybe some courses would stay long, and you would play the present ball on those courses. But other course could be short, and a new "Tier II" ball would be used on shorter courses. If you played a "Tier II" course, you would expect to play it in 3-1/2 hours. This could be a good thing, no?

 

And by the way, they could reduce the size of a driver head for elite players to less than 220 cc - and that would put more skill into the long game.

 

But the average Joe does not need a 7300-7600+ yard course anyways so why build it if there is no chance to host a tour event anyways? Coore/Crenshaw built a track here in 2006 that tips out at 6850 with super wide fairways. I've played it close over 50 times my best round is a +2 73 as anywhere from 1-3 index. Played it with tons of good players no one lights it up. In fact the course record is -6 65 and it has hosted mini tour events state am tourneys etc etc. Quite simply 98% of the time these super long courses do not need to be built and really are just the byproduct of bragging rights and ego's for owners and designers.

 

 

i really like this answer..

Giga XF0710* driver/Hirohonma twin marks 355 10.5* driver
TEE XCG5 16.5* 4W, Giga XF-11 17* 4W
Daiwa New Super Lady 21* 7W
Mizuno Intage 27* 9W
Giga U3 21* hybrid
Tourstage Viq U5 25* hybrid
Adams V4 6H/7H
Adams V4 forged irons 8-PW,GW,SW,LW
HEAVY PUTTER mid-weight K4 putter
Sun Mountain H2N0 stand bag
Wilson Harmonized 55*/60*wedges
Cleveland 588 56/60

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