Thoughts on Couch Potatoes Calling in Penalties

[new2g0lf]

I am 99.99% sure that the vast majority of other tour players have seen at least one similar infraction (like the ball replaced improperly after it was marked), that they have not reported to the committee, or to the golfer.

 

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

 

I would certainly hope that the percentage would be much lower than that. After hearing comments from Phil and others, however, I suspect that the percentage is maybe much higher than I would have expected.

 

Whats the appropriate tolerance of replacing a ball?

 

I have a new proposal to reduce such uncertainty... No touching the ball on the green except upon arrival you are allowed to wipe it off, or when requested by another player that you mark it. Otherwise leave the ball alone. Also ban alignment lines on the ball.

Works for me, I don't mark my ball 70% of the time. I only mark it to remove mud / sand from it or if a playing partner asks me to.

[Mark_888]

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

Is there actually a specific penalty for not calling a penalty on another golfer who violates the rules? What happens if a player calls out a bad ball replacement (after marked on the green) and there is no way to prove the allegation?

 

I just think the nature of golf and the tour is that it is very hard to ask fellow golfers to rat on their peers. It's not just what "I want" but what is feasible and what is consistent with human nature.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

I am 99.99% sure that the vast majority of other tour players have seen at least one similar infraction (like the ball replaced improperly after it was marked), that they have not reported to the committee, or to the golfer.

 

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

 

I would certainly hope that the percentage would be much lower than that. After hearing comments from Phil and others, however, I suspect that the percentage is maybe much higher than I would have expected.

 

Whats the appropriate tolerance of replacing a ball?

 

I have a new proposal to reduce such uncertainty... No touching the ball on the green except upon arrival you are allowed to wipe it off, or when requested by another player that you mark it. Otherwise leave the ball alone. Also ban alignment lines on the ball.

Works for me, I don't mark my ball 70% of the time. I only mark it to remove mud / sand from it or if a playing partner asks me to.

Yeah pretty much same for me.

[QEight]

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

Is there actually a specific penalty for not calling a penalty on another golfer who violates the rules? What happens if a player calls out a bad ball replacement (after marked on the green) and there is no way to prove the allegation?

 

If you are his marker, then you have higher responsibility in watching and reporting his true score. If you know that he has violated a rule and you do not let him know, and he returns a wrong result, he will get couple of penalty strokes and you get DQ. So there is a pressure on marker. If you are just a FC, you should let him know, and in some circumstances you might get DQd. 6-6a/5 and 33-7/9.

 

If you are in disagreement on ball replacement, then unless there is more evidence, most likely the player wins the debate. But at least he knows people are watching. Even if you call the referee, he can only rule based on evidence.

[alexgolfs]

It needs to stop. Only sport where everyone can be a referee.

[Mark_888]

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

Is there actually a specific penalty for not calling a penalty on another golfer who violates the rules? What happens if a player calls out a bad ball replacement (after marked on the green) and there is no way to prove the allegation?

 

If you are his marker, then you have higher responsibility in watching and reporting his true score. If you know that he has violated a rule and you do not let him know, and he returns a wrong result, he will get couple of penalty strokes and you get DQ. So there is a pressure on marker. If you are just a FC, you should let him know, and in some circumstances you might get DQd. 6-6a/5 and 33-7/9.

 

If you are in disagreement on ball replacement, then unless there is more evidence, most likely the player wins the debate. But at least he knows people are watching. Even if you call the referee, he can only rule based on evidence.

 

It's pretty hard for another player to "know" (much less prove) that another player did not replace a ball correctly. They don't have instant replay to see where it is marked in the first place.

 

In the case of Lexi Thompson, one would only know there was a problem if they carefully observed that the ball was originally marked to the side, and then later replaced as if it were marked right behind the ball as is usually done. So not even Lexi may have remembered that she replaced it incorrectly. There is no way someone else without the benefit of instant replay and zoom video could have caught that violation.

[Vindog]

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

Is there actually a specific penalty for not calling a penalty on another golfer who violates the rules? What happens if a player calls out a bad ball replacement (after marked on the green) and there is no way to prove the allegation?

 

If you are his marker, then you have higher responsibility in watching and reporting his true score. If you know that he has violated a rule and you do not let him know, and he returns a wrong result, he will get couple of penalty strokes and you get DQ. So there is a pressure on marker. If you are just a FC, you should let him know, and in some circumstances you might get DQd. 6-6a/5 and 33-7/9.

 

If you are in disagreement on ball replacement, then unless there is more evidence, most likely the player wins the debate. But at least he knows people are watching. Even if you call the referee, he can only rule based on evidence.

 

It's pretty hard for another player to "know" (much less prove) that another player did not replace a ball correctly. They don't have instant replay to see where it is marked in the first place.

 

In the case of Lexi Thompson, one would only know there was a problem if they carefully observed that the ball was originally marked to the side, and then later replaced as if it were marked right behind the ball as is usually done. So not even Lexi may have remembered that she replaced it incorrectly. There is no way someone else without the benefit of instant replay and zoom video could have caught that violation.

 

Sure there is

[BillyZ2]

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

Is there actually a specific penalty for not calling a penalty on another golfer who violates the rules? What happens if a player calls out a bad ball replacement (after marked on the green) and there is no way to prove the allegation?

 

If you are his marker, then you have higher responsibility in watching and reporting his true score. If you know that he has violated a rule and you do not let him know, and he returns a wrong result, he will get couple of penalty strokes and you get DQ. So there is a pressure on marker. If you are just a FC, you should let him know, and in some circumstances you might get DQd. 6-6a/5 and 33-7/9.

 

If you are in disagreement on ball replacement, then unless there is more evidence, most likely the player wins the debate. But at least he knows people are watching. Even if you call the referee, he can only rule based on evidence.

 

It's pretty hard for another player to "know" (much less prove) that another player did not replace a ball correctly. They don't have instant replay to see where it is marked in the first place.

 

In the case of Lexi Thompson, one would only know there was a problem if they carefully observed that the ball was originally marked to the side, and then later replaced as if it were marked right behind the ball as is usually done. So not even Lexi may have remembered that she replaced it incorrectly. There is no way someone else without the benefit of instant replay and zoom video could have caught that violation.

 

Sure there is

well maybe there is a way, but I say leave that up to the PGA officials to make that determination.

[KyGolf]

 

 

It's pretty hard for another player to "know" (much less prove) that another player did not replace a ball correctly. They don't have instant replay to see where it is marked in the first place.

 

In the case of Lexi Thompson, one would only know there was a problem if they carefully observed that the ball was originally marked to the side, and then immediately replaced as if it were marked right behind the ball as is usually done. So not even Lexi may have remembered that she replaced it incorrectly. There is no way someone else without the benefit of instant replay and zoom video could have caught that violation.

 

 

FIFY

[sui generis]

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

Is there actually a specific penalty for not calling a penalty on another golfer who violates the rules? What happens if a player calls out a bad ball replacement (after marked on the green) and there is no way to prove the allegation?

 

I just think the nature of golf and the tour is that it is very hard to ask fellow golfers to rat on their peers. It's not just what "I want" but what is feasible and what is consistent with human nature.

 

Decision 33-7/9 Competitor Who Knows Player Has Breached Rules Does Not Inform Player or Committee in Timely Manner

 

The responsibility for knowing the Rules lies with all players. In stroke play, the player and his marker have an explicit responsibility for the correctness of the player's score card.

 

There may, however, be exceptional individual cases where, in order to protect the interests of every other player in the competition, it would be reasonable to expect a fellow-competitor or another competitor to bring to light a player's breach of the Rules by notifying the player, his marker or the Committee.

 

In such exceptional circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Committee to impose a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7 on a fellow-competitor or another competitor if it becomes apparent that he has failed to advise the player, his marker or the Committee of a Rules breach with the clear intention of allowing that player to return an incorrect score.

[Mark_888]

Decision 33-7/9 Competitor Who Knows Player Has Breached Rules Does Not Inform Player or Committee in Timely Manner

 

The responsibility for knowing the Rules lies with all players. In stroke play, the player and his marker have an explicit responsibility for the correctness of the player's score card.

 

There may, however, be exceptional individual cases where, in order to protect the interests of every other player in the competition, it would be reasonable to expect a fellow-competitor or another competitor to bring to light a player's breach of the Rules by notifying the player, his marker or the Committee.

 

In such exceptional circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Committee to impose a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7 on a fellow-competitor or another competitor if it becomes apparent that he has failed to advise the player, his marker or the Committee of a Rules breach with the clear intention of allowing that player to return an incorrect score.

 

I don't think there is any way that a player could be penalized for not notifying a fellow player or officials that another player's ball was marked, but not replaced correctly (within a few inches). There is no way that it could be proven that they knew about it, but did not report it.

[Shilgy]

Decision 33-7/9 Competitor Who Knows Player Has Breached Rules Does Not Inform Player or Committee in Timely Manner

 

The responsibility for knowing the Rules lies with all players. In stroke play, the player and his marker have an explicit responsibility for the correctness of the player's score card.

 

There may, however, be exceptional individual cases where, in order to protect the interests of every other player in the competition, it would be reasonable to expect a fellow-competitor or another competitor to bring to light a player's breach of the Rules by notifying the player, his marker or the Committee.

 

In such exceptional circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Committee to impose a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7 on a fellow-competitor or another competitor if it becomes apparent that he has failed to advise the player, his marker or the Committee of a Rules breach with the clear intention of allowing that player to return an incorrect score.

 

I don't think there is any way that a player could be penalized for not notifying a fellow player or officials that another player's ball was marked, but not replaced correctly (within a few inches). There is no way that it could be proven that they knew about it, but did not report it.

Of course there is. We're playing together. I see you mismark and call you out on it the next morning.

[Mark_888]

Of course there is. We're playing together. I see you mismark and call you out on it the next morning.

 

That's not even close to what I said. Suppose I mark my ball and replace it two inches in the wrong spot. How can you prove that I, as your playing partner, noticed it, so that you can penalize me for not reporting it?

 

That is why self-policing by players is not sufficient, because only a camera with ability to replay with close up zoom can detect it, and be able to replay it, so that officials are certain that a penalty should not be assessed.

[sui generis]

Decision 33-7/9 Competitor Who Knows Player Has Breached Rules Does Not Inform Player or Committee in Timely Manner

 

The responsibility for knowing the Rules lies with all players. In stroke play, the player and his marker have an explicit responsibility for the correctness of the player's score card.

 

There may, however, be exceptional individual cases where, in order to protect the interests of every other player in the competition, it would be reasonable to expect a fellow-competitor or another competitor to bring to light a player's breach of the Rules by notifying the player, his marker or the Committee.

 

In such exceptional circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Committee to impose a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7 on a fellow-competitor or another competitor if it becomes apparent that he has failed to advise the player, his marker or the Committee of a Rules breach with the clear intention of allowing that player to return an incorrect score.

 

I don't think there is any way that a player could be penalized for not notifying a fellow player or officials that another player's ball was marked, but not replaced correctly (within a few inches). There is no way that it could be proven that they knew about it, but did not report it.

 

While you might not think it possible, I can tell you from experience both as a competitor and as a referee that it happens from time to time. It usually gets sorted out in the scoring tent, but not always.

[Mark_888]

While you might not think it possible, I can tell you from experience both as a competitor and as a referee that it happens from time to time. It usually gets sorted out in the scoring tent, but not always.

 

I never said it was impossible. I said it was more likely that either:

1. The other players or even officials in that group did not see the violation from their vantage point, and therefor it is virtually impossible to penalize them for not a reporting a violation that you can't prove that they actually saw.
   
2. Even if another player saw a violation by a playing partner (or maybe "thought" they saw a violation, but not sure without instant replay), but did not report it, it is virtually impossible to prove that they did see it, in order to penalize that other player (who did not report the violation).
   

 

You seem to be distorting what I am saying, and replying with a non-sequitur. The question is whether a playing partner can realistically be held accountable (and penalized) for not reporting a bad ball mark and replace by another golfer in his group that was off by about 2 inches, as occurred in the incident that started this discussion.

[Vindog]

While you might not think it possible, I can tell you from experience both as a competitor and as a referee that it happens from time to time. It usually gets sorted out in the scoring tent, but not always.

 

I never said it was impossible. I said it was more likely that either:

1. The other players or even officials in that group did not see the violation from their vantage point, and therefor it is virtually impossible to penalize them for not a reporting a violation that you can't prove that they actually saw.
   
2. Even if another player saw a violation by a playing partner (or maybe "thought" they saw a violation, but not sure without instant replay), but did not report it, it is virtually impossible to prove that they did see it, in order to penalize that other player (who did not report the violation).
   

 

You seem to be distorting what I am saying, and replying with a non-sequitur. The question is whether a playing partner can realistically be held accountable (and penalized) for not reporting a bad ball mark and replace by another golfer in his group that was off by about 2 inches, as occurred in the incident that started this discussion.

 

 

You did say that there wasn't "any way" (which implies impossibility).

 

There is a decision quoted which allows for such a penalty. Whether that specific case falls under that decision is dependent on the facts of the moment. As we all know there is always a possibility. Maybe there was someone else who say the whole thing, who knows.

[alexdp]

The problem with the Lexi Thompson infraction, is that most people are thinking this was an accident.

She is clearly doing this intentionally. No golfer could bend over and move their ball almost a full inch accidentally in 1.5 seconds without even standing up.

 

Here is a vid of her doing it a SECOND TIME

 

Here is a vid of her doing it a THIRD TIME. This time the total ball movement is almost 2 INCHES!

 

She has probably done this trick HUNDREDS of times. The field needs to be protected from players like her, so video replay is really the only way. Unless you want to create a culture on tour where playing partners hover over your every movement

[whr]

The problem with the Lexi Thompson infraction, is that most people are thinking this was an accident.

She is clearly doing this intentionally. No golfer could bend over and move their ball almost a full inch accidentally in 1.5 seconds without even standing up.

 

Here is a vid of her doing it a SECOND TIME

 

Here is a vid of her doing it a THIRD TIME. This time the total ball movement is almost 2 INCHES!

 

She has probably done this trick HUNDREDS of times. The field needs to be protected from players like her, so video replay is really the only way. Unless you want to create a culture on tour where playing partners hover over your every movement

 

You remind me of the old lady on the HOA who complains about the width of someone's blinds on the back of their house.

 

Or this guy:

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

The problem with the Lexi Thompson infraction, is that most people are thinking this was an accident.

She is clearly doing this intentionally. No golfer could bend over and move their ball almost a full inch accidentally in 1.5 seconds without even standing up.

 

Here is a vid of her doing it a SECOND TIME

 

Here is a vid of her doing it a THIRD TIME. This time the total ball movement is almost 2 INCHES!

 

She has probably done this trick HUNDREDS of times. The field needs to be protected from players like her, so video replay is really the only way. Unless you want to create a culture on tour where playing partners hover over your every movement

 

Nice try to show something that didn't happen. You spent a fair amount of time to edit those.

 

Let's see, you only have a few posts on wrx, all on this topic. Are you the couch potato that called it in? You got an ax to grind with lexi?

[BillyZ2]

I find the name, within the title of this thread, "couch potatoes", very appropriate! It seems to fit an individual, probably with a very high handicap, that doesn't have any other authority within his life,to make a call to get an accomplished PGA professional a penalty. I wonder if these people play golf at all, or just like to talk about golf that they don't play.? I really don't think a lot gets accomplished with threads like these it's just an avenue to vent one's frustrations. Go play golf for goodness sakes!

[Mark_888]

I find the name, within the title of this thread, "couch potatoes", very appropriate! It seems to fit an individual, probably with a very high handicap, that doesn't have any other authority within his life,to make a call to get an accomplished PGA professional a penalty. I wonder if these people play golf at all, or just like to talk about golf that they don't play.? I really don't think a lot gets accomplished with threads like these it's just an avenue to vent one's frustrations. Go play golf for goodness sakes!

 

How do you know the person who reported Lexi's violation was a couch potato?

 

The whole issue of call-ins is a red herring. Would the Lexi situation been made better if no one called in, but a tournament official discovered the violation themselves the next day? I don't think so. The main problem is the lapse in time between violation and enforcement, and the 2-stroke penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard.

[alexdp]

Blackdiamondpar5: "Nice try to show something that didn't happen. You spent a fair amount of time to edit those.

 

Let's see, you only have a few posts on wrx, all on this topic. Are you the couch potato that called it in? You got an ax to grind with lexi?

 

I edited the video to show something that didn't happen? What is doctored in the videos? She cheated and it's obvious (3 times). I joined this site because I thought there were real golfers here who care about integrity. You are the opposite, circling the wagon around the popular and beautiful.

 

BillyZ2 is beyond pathetic, projecting his own inadequacy on me. You're in the Lexi cult and get so flustered by VIDEO EVIDENCE that you have to speculate on whether I'm a good golfer and "doesn't have any other authority within his life". Oh but you're in the "hall of fame" as a poster" so I should be humilated

[whr]

Blackdiamondpar5: "Nice try to show something that didn't happen. You spent a fair amount of time to edit those.

 

Let's see, you only have a few posts on wrx, all on this topic. Are you the couch potato that called it in? You got an ax to grind with lexi?

 

I edited the video to show something that didn't happen? What is doctored in the videos? She cheated and it's obvious (3 times). I joined this site because I thought there were real golfers here who care about integrity. You are the opposite, circling the wagon around the popular and beautiful.

 

BillyZ2 is beyond pathetic, projecting his own inadequacy on me. You're in the Lexi cult and get so flustered by VIDEO EVIDENCE that you have to speculate on whether I'm a good golfer and "doesn't have any other authority within his life". Oh but you're in the "hall of fame" as a poster" so I should be humilated

 

The world has moved on kid. Your two edited videos and three angry posts directed at Lexi are creepy, at best.

[alexdp]

What's angry about the post? Or are you just a troll projecting your own "creepy" self on others? I dare you to say anything insightful or informative on this topic. Oh wait, it's the internet and you can just hide behind that

[BillyZ2]

What's angry about the post? Or are you just a troll projecting your own "creepy" self on others? I dare you to say anything insightful or informative on this topic. Oh wait, it's the internet and you can just hide behind that

alexdip, it's very simple, the PGA should manage and monitor itself, not incompetent fans.

[Mark_888]

You did say that there wasn't "any way" (which implies impossibility).

 

There is a decision quoted which allows for such a penalty. Whether that specific case falls under that decision is dependent on the facts of the moment. As we all know there is always a possibility. Maybe there was someone else who say the whole thing, who knows.

 

I was talking about a bad mark and replace like Lexi did, that was a couple inches off. There is no way someone could prove that the playing partner saw the infraction and that the playing partner was sure enough that it was a bad replacement in order for that playing partner to be assessed a penalty for not reporting it.

 

Obviously, if the mark and replace was several feet off, and there was TV replay evidence that the playing partner witnessed that, then in that case a penalty could be assessed against the playing partner if it was not reported to the officials.

[Mark_888]

Nice try to show something that didn't happen. You spent a fair amount of time to edit those.

 

Let's see, you only have a few posts on wrx, all on this topic. Are you the couch potato that called it in? You got an ax to grind with lexi?

 

I doubt that the poster in this thread created those video's posted on YouTube. The editing was to just skip through the part of the broadcast on TV between her hitting the approach shot and her hitting her put, where they showed other players hitting shots. I have no idea if the video is accurate, but would not be surprised if it is.

 

My guess is that Lexi does that because she thinks a lot of others do it, and she needs to get even, but this is just a guess. In any case, it is certainly possible that the game of golf needs to clean up its act.

 

Calling people a couch potato, or counting the number of posts on this forum by a poster, is extremely childish and does not constructively address the issue.

[whr]

What's angry about the post? Or are you just a troll projecting your own "creepy" self on others? I dare you to say anything insightful or informative on this topic. Oh wait, it's the internet and you can just hide behind that

 

 

No problem....I recommend you step away from the computer and take a deep breathe. Your anger is palpable.

[Mark_888]

I doubt that the poster in this thread created those video's posted on YouTube.

 

I retract my statement above. The poster above appears to be the same person who uploaded the video to YouTube. Not sure who created the video, but could have been the same person who uploaded it.