Mother Flippin' Hogan

[Jobu]

okay, but if the right hand doesn't hinge, it doesn't have to flip or scoop.

[dairic]

Jobu, you'de have to argue that the post-accident hogan here is more rotated left then the pre-accident hogan. I'm not seeing that at all. If anything post-accident Hogan has a left arm in this position is more internally rotated then pre accident hogan. There's a noticeable diference in right wrist bend also.

[attachment=2064691:hogans.png]

[moehogan]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1392139553' post='8644659']
Jobu, you'de have to argue that the post-accident hogan here is more rotated left then the pre-accident hogan. I'm not seeing that at all. If anything post-accident Hogan has a left arm in this position is more internally rotated then pre accident hogan. There's a noticeable diference in right wrist bend also.

[attachment=2064691:hogans.png]
[/quote]

In the pics above, one should not ignore the effect of the clubhead into the turf vs. bouncing off of a mat.

[dairic]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1392140000' post='8644711']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1392139553' post='8644659']
Jobu, you'de have to argue that the post-accident hogan here is more rotated left then the pre-accident hogan. I'm not seeing that at all. If anything post-accident Hogan has a left arm in this position is more internally rotated then pre accident hogan. There's a noticeable diference in right wrist bend also.

[attachment=2064691:hogans.png]
[/quote]

In the pics above, one should not ignore the effect of the clubhead into the turf vs. bouncing off of a mat.
[/quote]

Thats fair enough, however, if we do the same comparison with driver swings to remove the turf variable, the results are the same.

[dairic]

This is the kind of thing that is so simple and unexpected that it repels the mind.

[Jobu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7aaRsGwo7Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk

when, in your estimation does the clubhead pass the left hand? In a flip, the butt of the grip would have to go backwards, correct? It doesn't go backwards in space in Hogan's swing pre or post accident.

[Hoganstriker]

You guys ought to be looking at causes not just effects. Is there more speed from moving forward in a straight path or continuing to work in a circle?
ROFL I mean calling Hogan a flipper is about the funniest thing I have seen LATELY. FACT.

[ej002]

Someone once told me don't get mad at the jibderish posted just laugh.... And I am laughing. Hard

[Hoganstriker]

A flip is caused by a lack of leverage what Hogan does is called a release.
But hey keep looking at the effects maybe you'll find the secret.
Have fun you guys golf is a great game.
I guess my first post was not comprehended well and thats fine.
I am going to bow out as I can see that since folks laughed there are far greater more knowledgable folks here than myself and I obviously know next to nothing in comparison to the internet forum titans here.
Sorry to intrude on the circle thing you guys got goin.

[Jobu]

You see this angle between the left arm and shaft? It "disappears" at impact looking face on. As soon as he starts turning left it reappears. Right hand never overtakes the left.

 

 

[Hoganstriker]

Word.

[dairic]

I see what your saying, but wouldn't that result is very high club head rotation? Would that mean that in this gif the club head would have turn at least 90 degrees between impact and the end of the sequence because we can see that angle between the shaft and the left arm like in your pic?

[attachment=2065899:ggg.gif]

[dairic]

Here's a nice one from Time Life. Notice that you can see your angle here Jobu, but the club face is pointing at the target.

[attachment=2065907:Time Life.jpg]

[ej002]

[attachment=2065925:image.jpg]

[ej002]

The pivot brings him into to "position to hit" and to "release at the bottom".. Call flip / release whatever... it sounds like he is doing something active at the bottom to throw the club head. Look at his motion

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H1beFExxdIY

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQE

[Jobu]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1392189259' post='8650385']
The pivot brings him into to "position to hit" and to "release at the bottom".. Call flip / release whatever... it sounds like he is doing something active at the bottom to throw the club head. Look at his motion

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H1beFExxdIY"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=H1beFExxdIY[/url]

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQE"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=eNlUKLPFwQE[/url]
[/quote]

i agree with that, if you want to classify it as a flip, okay. I call it a throw.

[DJ Watts]

If I may offer a thought:

Hogan did not [b][i]"flip."[/i][/b] For a [b][i]"scoop"[/i][/b] or [b][i]"flip"[/i][/b] to occur, the club must release and pass the hands [b][i]before[/i][/b] impact. [b][i]That[/i][/b] is a scoop.

The club head will always release, and trying to maintain a flat left wrist past impact does nothing to the ball, but does much to disrupt the body's natural action. A perfect release would have the left arm begin to fold immediately as the right arm reaches extension.

If the body is pivoting and moving regularly, the release will happen of its own, and if the body pivot stalls or stops, then the club will pass the hands prior to impact and cause the scoop or flip.

Nothing that occurs after impact has any effect on the ball.

Before, much effect.

Peace,

DJ Watts

[dairic]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1392219639' post='8651847']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1392189259' post='8650385']
The pivot brings him into to "position to hit" and to "release at the bottom".. Call flip / release whatever... it sounds like he is doing something active at the bottom to throw the club head. Look at his motion

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H1beFExxdIY"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=H1beFExxdIY[/url]

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQE"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=eNlUKLPFwQE[/url]
[/quote]

i agree with that, if you want to classify it as a flip, okay. I call it a throw.
[/quote]

Monte had a video related to this that he put up a while ago. I'll see if I can find it. The basic message what as long as your pivot is working properly with proper tilts etc, you can try to "flip" or "throw" it as hard as you can and you'll always have forward shaft lean at impact i.e right hand won't overtake the left hand. Based on Hogan's words and pics it looks like he's doing this from P6 on.

Let's not get lost in semantics. I know your a big proponent of using the right hand so I'm sure we'll end up understanding each other.

[Hoganstriker]

It's a connected swing that Hogan did not a magic trick.
It's not a flip its a release which is also not a throw.

[Hoganstriker]

Right hand use? duh.

[dairic]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1392236655' post='8653995']
It's a connected swing that Hogan did not a magic trick.
It's not a flip its a release which is also not a throw.
[/quote]

Hey HS, how are you so sure? If it's just a release as a result of physics then how come no one else looks like it when they release the club? Even pre accident BH looked different even though his pivot was similar.

Are you saying that he didn't actively use his hands in the hitting area as if his hands are getting a free ride right up to the follow through?
If not, then why not?
If so, then how?

[dairic]

Here's that monte vid on casting it on purpose (second half of vid). Not saying that this what hogan did or that Monte agrees with anything I've ever said. Likely like most people he'll read this thread and think that I'm an idiot. Just though it was relavent to the discussion.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tgwNEpvQQqE

[dlygrisse]

3 right hands!

Hogan did not flip, he was not a knuckle dragger either,..... in sync, on plane, full release.

Too many get caught up in the supination illustration in 5 Lessons, this is what he did prior to impact, and at impact.

[dairic]

Here's Monte trying as hard as he can to flip it.

1st Frame is impact (shaft + left arm alignment)
2nd Frame is just after impact (alignment gone)

[attachment=2066939:monte flipping.jpg]

[stiffdogg06]

I'd take Hogan's "flipping" all day, every day and twice on Sunday.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='stiffdogg06' timestamp='1392258652' post='8656701']
I'd take Hogan's "flipping" all day, every day and twice on Sunday.
[/quote]Mmmm....36 holes of flippin on Sunday, me likey.

[dairic]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1392258802' post='8656721']
[quote name='stiffdogg06' timestamp='1392258652' post='8656701']
I'd take Hogan's "flipping" all day, every day and twice on Sunday.
[/quote]Mmmm....36 holes of flippin on Sunday, me likey.
[/quote]

It's been way too long since I had a 36 hole Sunday. Kids!!

[Hoganstriker]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1392249961' post='8655623']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1392236655' post='8653995']
It's a connected swing that Hogan did not a magic trick.
It's not a flip its a release which is also not a throw.
[/quote]

Hey HS, how are you so sure? If it's just a release as a result of physics then how come no one else looks like it when they release the club? Even pre accident BH looked different even though his pivot was similar.

Are you saying that he didn't actively use his hands in the hitting area as if his hands are getting a free ride right up to the follow through?
If not, then why not?
If so, then how?
[/quote]

Its my opinion that some important aspects of Hogans motion are the left shoulder and its motion. He has a lot of lag and that left shoulder is an important key. IMO its turn through impact and post has a big effect on whats going on at the handle.
IMO none of these ideas are anything unique to Hogan-Hogan was only unique in the sense that every other golfer is unique.
Anyhow IMO that left shoulder is very important because it's providing a lot of clubhead acceleration during it's free swing because of the path it travels on.
As for the right hand its used obviously-he said it in the book. My take is the fulcrum point is actually between the hands on the grip of the club. So I guess in essence it's my view that Hogan of course used his hands just like all good golfers do.
Thats shotmaking for any golfer it's not unique to Hogan.
The thing is its not a flip. Its not dead hands and a pivot. Its not holding angles. Its the same fundamentals a lot of great golfers used packed into a goofy body size and also a man with an obsession. Its not just hands. Its not TGM hitting. Its not what some have called hitting. Its not a throw or whatever. Its a release. The right hand can be very active but thats not a flip or hit the club is moving on an arc its a release. The ball is located at a point on the clubhead arc but nothing changes about the swing as it passes through the point where the ball is located for a normal shot for him IMO.
It's not magic.
There's no silly secret.
Nothing he did was all that unique. He was really good. He probably practiced more than anyone and had to keep practicing more than anyone.
You ask if it's just a release with physics doing it. Well watch Jamie Sadlowskis left arm through impact from the left shoulder.
He's using physics to his advantage like all good golfers do. But the club is released not held off or reverse rolled or hitting with the hands through the ball at the target.

Check out the move by Sadlowski with theleft arm lift to help get the club around from the monster lag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ0dNIP-yoU

Thats my take thanks for asking.

[Jobu]

left arm downcocks on backswing, upcocks at impact. the reason why the right wrist does not c0ck.

[dairic]

HS I definitely agree with you about the importance of the left shoulder, and agree to disagree about the active unbending of the right wrist.

I think the reason he can continue to angle hinge, keep right elbow bent, right forearm supinated, and not roll until much later after impact is in part because of his left shoulder action, arms synced up with pivot and non stop hip rotation...even though, as I think, he's flipping at it. He's firing on all cylinders. I wonder what the ABS guys would have to say. There're all about actively firing into impact and proper left shoulder movement.

Looks different if the other components are not the same. Take Bubba for example. He's also a flipper but nothing like BH. Pivot outraces arms and stalls.

[attachment=2068665:Bubba flip.jpg]

[attachment=2068677:bubba flip 2.png]

[attachment=2068679:Bubba flip 3.png]