Hogan Swing - Why?

[Hstead]

I guess my main point is sure hogan had a great swing it's fun to discuss but I don't understand why teachers all seem to have "the secret and they all say something different and I don't understand why people that are not built like Hogan want to try to swing like him. Makes no sense to me.

[ej002]

Come on H, you know the reason, it is called MARKETING. Let's use that poor man's name to sell lessons. There is obviously a difference in using him as an example to push a point or demonstration or just as a "model" and pimping the name. Unfortunately, I think there is more pimpin' going on than genuine use as a learning tool.


Edit - to Dairic's post... yes fun and educational for us swing geeks. But I think H makes a good point as to instructors when it applies to the marketing aspect. Everyone cannot teach a "hogan" swing each looks 10000x different from the next and just all farked up.

[gators78]

I just have this vision in my head of Nicklaus telling players don't watch my ugly flying elbow cut swing, it's so bad, you really should copy Ben Hogan because he was [i]perfection, [/i]as Jack just keeps putting major championship trophies on his mantle.

[trajectory]

Any way to throw a golf ball really hard side arm without leading with your elbow and resemble a human with at least a little natural ability?

You wouldn't shot-put it......you would whip it with the elbow leading....if you were using your right hand to throw.

Doesn't matter how short or long your arm is.

[Dinosaur]

Where in the heck is Todd Graves when you need him?

[lonestar48]

[quote name='dirthead' timestamp='1393263988' post='8735100']
Did Hogan really hit it "that" much better than other great ball strikers? Or has the legend grown over the years. His ball striking almost has a mythical status today. I'm not old enough to have actually seen him play, but did he really hit it that much better than anyone else?
[/quote]
In a word...yes. Not every round or every shot, he was not a robot but all in all, he was deadly accurate with every club in his bag. Consider this: When he won the Open Championship at Carnoustie in '53, he only missed [i][b]one[/b][/i] fairway in 2 practice rounds and 4 tournament rounds of competition.
He also hit every fairway and every green in his match against Snead on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf in '64, well past his prime.
There are numerous other stories of course. James Dodson's biography is an excellent read!

[dirthead]

[quote name='lonestar48' timestamp='1393268064' post='8735588']
[quote name='dirthead' timestamp='1393263988' post='8735100']
Did Hogan really hit it "that" much better than other great ball strikers? Or has the legend grown over the years. His ball striking almost has a mythical status today. I'm not old enough to have actually seen him play, but did he really hit it that much better than anyone else?
[/quote]
In a word...yes. Not every round or every shot, he was not a robot but all in all, he was deadly accurate with every club in his bag. Consider this: When he won the Open Championship at Carnoustie in '53, he only missed [i][b]one[/b][/i] fairway in 2 practice rounds and 4 tournament rounds of competition.
He also hit every fairway and every green in his match against Snead on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf in '64, well past his prime.
There are numerous other stories of course. James Dodson's biography is an excellent read!
[/quote]

I'll have to read the biography. I grew up in Central Texas, not far from Fort Worth, but just wasn't around while he was still playing.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1393206937' post='8731394']
Is it just me or is anyone else tired of hearing "but Hogan did it this way"? Every teacher seems to know "the secret" yet every teacher has a different interpretation of what Hogan did.

Plus, Hogan couldn't beat Nelson before he retired. Hogan said Mickey Wright had the best swing he had ever seen. Hogan also liked Sneads swing. Hogan wasn't as good as Jack, yet we never hear "but Jack did it this way".

I just thought I would start this thread and see if anyone else is bored and tired with the Hogan stuff. Why someone would think that everyone should swing like a 5'8" man with long arms is beyond me. Flame suit on.
[/quote]

1. Yes I'm tired, but only because some people have so mythologized Hogan's swing, and want to put his every swing foible on pedastle, rather than getting down to telling the difference between what were the essential mechanics that made it work....and what where simply personal quirks that were adaptations to his body type and the first-generation steel-shafts he was playing.

2. Hogan was a "late-bloomer" and suffered many career interruptions due to the force of history (WWII) and personal tragedy (bus accident). So to try to make statements over the full-breadth of his career...and make statements about a swing that really didn't take full form until the late-40s/early 1950s is both not-very-relevant...and not-very fair.

3. Bobby Jones once said---to paraphrase---that "[i]The form of golf swing must invariable follow its function. The function of a golf swing is to consistently return the clubhead squarely into the back of the ball[/i]" Hogan said something very similar. [b][i]I don't care how a golf swing looks. Your score card doesn't care how a golf swing looks. It cares how your swing PERFORMS. It cares whether or not you can REPEAT it...and whether it produces a predictable ball flight. [/i][/b]

The list of people with pretty swings who can't play a lick...is long...and not-at-all-distinguished. There are a LEGION of Hall of Fame Players with ugly swings...and one future one that has a swing that looks like an Octopus falling out of a tree (Jim Furyk).

4. Sam Snead was a once-a-century, athletic freak-of-nature. A totally unschooled NATURAL who was so fit and so freakishly strong and flexible that he could stand flat-footed on the floor and kick the CEILING in rooms until he into his SEVENTIES.

5. We don't hear that "Jack did it this way" because Jack himself realized that most people don't have the physical capacity to swing a golf club like he did....and the fact that he did for so long, tore up his body. Everyone in Jack's generation who tried to swing like he did either had to quit the game early due to (back) injuries....or has had to go on to have their hips replaced. Tom Watson was the most recent one...and probably wouldn't still be playing if he handn't modernized his footwork (getting rid of that big Reverse C finish) back in his 40s.

6. Why do we care how a 5'8" guy with long arms swung the golf club? Simple. Because with a few MINOR adjustments, you wind up with a simple, easily to learn, LOW-MAINTENANCE golf swing that is easy on the body....and can have people of average athletic ability hitting accurate golf shots for many, many years.

The list of people who can effectively---and consistently--play golf trying to swing like Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus, or Byron Nelson is pretty small...and gets even smaller as people reach middle-age and older.

In fact, most of the "modern swings" you see on tour today---and the source of the "distance" and "scoring" problems that Tour golf is trying to "combat"---has as much to do with the modernization and dissemination of the Hogan "body-rotation" swing as it has to do with technology. Because players don't have to pound balls hour-after-hour, day-in/day-out in an effort to maintain a very timing-dependant swing. They stay healthier. Play better tee-to-green, day-in-and-out...and can spend much more time practicing their short game.

[bdcava]

I understand that he also used equipment (super stiff shafts, clubheads bent open) that would be all but impossible for most people to hit.

[Finbarr Saunders]

"Hitting a fade with a draw swing" Do people think Hogan had figured out gear effect ?. If you look at the wear spot on his famous 1 iron, it looks like its closer to the heel than where you would think the sweet spot was

[Timanator]

Good stuff Kellygreen, a swing with least moving parts and easy to repeat is why people have been fascinated with the Hogan's rotational swing. He was very consistent as evident by the Wonderful world of golf, hitting all fairways and greens.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1393272797' post='8736164']
"Hitting a fade with a draw swing" Do people think Hogan had figured out gear effect ?. If you look at the wear spot on his famous 1 iron, it looks like its closer to the heel than where you would think the sweet spot was
[/quote]

That right there is sexy. Gets my little tail wagging.

[Paul E]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1393272958' post='8736180']
[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1393272797' post='8736164']
"Hitting a fade with a draw swing" Do people think Hogan had figured out gear effect ?. If you look at the wear spot on his famous 1 iron, it looks like its closer to the heel than where you would think the sweet spot was
[/quote]

That right there is sexy. Gets my little tail wagging.
[/quote]

OP asked why. I seem to remember in 5L, Hogan saying if you applied yourself to what he wrote in the book, golfers would be scoring in the 70s. Did that happen? Where are all these happy golfers? Is there a mega thread hidden somewhere where they all sit around and talk about how easy it is?

Why, indeed. Welcome back, tembolo. Relocating in the witness protection program can be b****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjUQMs0kVEI

[tembolo1284]

Don't tell anyone of my new location!

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1393272884' post='8736172']
Good stuff Kellygreen, a swing with least moving parts and easy to repeat is why people have been fascinated with the Hogan's rotational swing. He was very consistent as evident by the Wonderful world of golf, hitting all fairways and greens.
[/quote]

Thanks.

Not only that. When you start comparing player's accross eras, what you see in the swing has as much to do with the what the EQUIPMENT of that era will tolerate, as much as it has to do with swing technique.

If Bobby Jones had tried to swing like Hogan or like Jack or like Tiger with the hickory shafts of the 1920s....history would have only remembered him as an Atlanta-area LAWYER. Not a golfer of historic impact. on the game.

You also see adaptations to conditions. Jack could afford to develop that upright swing that threw the ball way up in the air, because he grew up in Central Ohio. Here---during the vast majority of the golf season---there is very little wind...and the greens on the older courses are very small. Making that shot shape a huge advantage. Hogan grew up in Texas, where anything less than 20 mph is a breeze. So rare is the Texas golfer of any impact that doesn't develop a swing that produces a flat, penetrating trajectory. One that can hold its line in the wind.

Imo, Hogan needs to be remebered and honored for his professional accomplishments...and for really being the Father of the modern, body-rotation swing. But once it gets beyond that...and gets into mystique and mythology...I'm reaching for the ripcord and looking to bail.

[Pinsplitter59]

I find it kind of funny people saying his swing method is too hard to copy, suited only him and today's average golfer should not attempt it.
When today's average golfer is being taught the "modern" swing he/she is obviously finding it REALLY DIFFICULT to do.
The funny thing here is that the common group think is all about these catch phrases, centred pivot, arms in front, deep right hip and on and on, and still the average golfer can't do it with much success or ease of execution.
So if you think "modern" instruction/theory is better you are wrong because there is absolutely no proof for this belief.
is there an easy way to successfully hit the golf ball?
If there is it is not the "modern" theory going on in this forum because you only have to read it all to see that its NOT EASY.
The underlying untruth in this thread is that "modern" is better and Hogan is too hard when there is no proof at all.

[dlygrisse]

Just because you swing like Hogan, doesn't mean your swing will look like his and vice versa. How often have you heard someone on TV say "Chad Campbell has a very Hogenesque swing" When in fact the only thing they are referring to is that he has a flat backswing plane.

However if you follow his fundamentals laid down in his book could you acquire his skill and not necessarily look like him? Larry Nelson claims he learned the game at age 21 reading 5 Lessons, no one will confuse the look of his swing with Hogans.

[bph7]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1393276677' post='8736570']
I find it kind of funny people saying his swing method is too hard to copy, suited only him and today's average golfer should not attempt it.
When today's average golfer is being taught the "modern" swing he/she is obviously finding it REALLY DIFFICULT to do.
The funny thing here is that the common group think is all about these catch phrases, centred pivot, arms in front, deep right hip and on and on, and still the average golfer can't do it with much success or ease of execution.
So if you think "modern" instruction/theory is better you are wrong because there is absolutely no proof for this belief.
is there an easy way to successfully hit the golf ball?
If there is it is not the "modern" theory going on in this forum because you only have to read it all to see that its NOT EASY.
[b]The underlying untruth in this thread is that "modern" is better and Hogan is too hard when there is no proof at all.[/b]
[/quote]

Just FWIW, I don't get this impression at all from this thread. Is "modern" teaching being discussed and how it differs from Hogan? I don't see much of that. It just seems to be posts about why Hogan's swing might not be great to copy, a premise which I agree with. So, no, I don't think anyone is advocating for how "modern" instruction is "better" in any way. The only people who seem to mention modern teaching are those who want to tear it down, but since no one even agrees on a definition of it, I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with group-think and everyone agreeing on one and only one way.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1393206937' post='8731394']
Is it just me or is anyone else tired of hearing "but Hogan did it this way"? Every teacher seems to know "the secret" yet every teacher has a different interpretation of what Hogan did.

Plus, Hogan couldn't beat Nelson before he retired. Hogan said Mickey Wright had the best swing he had ever seen. Hogan also liked Sneads swing. Hogan wasn't as good as Jack, yet we never hear "but Jack did it this way".

I just thought I would start this thread and see if anyone else is bored and tired with the Hogan stuff. Why someone would think that everyone should swing like a 5'8" man with long arms is beyond me. Flame suit on.
[/quote]

Hogan created a swing after the accident based upon a weak right leg.
So unless you have a bad leg, dont copy his swing.
if you do then you also need to do the way the did swing in the old days as he also had a different compression of pressure points than players today have.
One reason is the weight of clubs and such but main reason is the bad leg. as he got older he shifted faster and faster to the left side which many modern swing theory then think he did to be a ballstriker. No he did that due to a bad leg.

He be a very short hitter today like Luke Donald.

[ruddermayhem]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1393209633' post='8731728']

the side arm throw is golden.
[/quote]

+1

[dpb5031]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1393254304' post='8734022']
@8 - I would think to look like Hogan's pitch elbow a guy would need longer arms for his build. Maybe a guy with short arms could have a pitch and some PA3 but it isn't going to look like Hogan's super pitch. I might have to check out Monte at P6, he obviously hits it harder than Hogan did and I think he has a pitch elbow but not sure how much PA3 he likes to use.

@smother - yep that is how I understand wingspan, from finger tips, and most of the time people are slightly longer than their height is normal I believe, so Hogan should have been 5'8"-5"9 ish with his height if he was 5'6" instead of 6'.

Edit - Ok checked out Monte's swing since he stated his arms are shorter for his build and trying to swing like Hogan jacked him up. Monte has a pitch elbow but is a TSP swinger vs elbow plane, uses a ton of PA2 vs PA3. Monte has a ton of similarities to Jason Day's swing when you put them side by side. Day's arm swing is just a touch shorter. Both guys hammer it.
[/quote]
Shoulder mobility is another factor. You can have the long arms, but if you don't have the flexibility/mobility to comfortably and dynamically achieve those positions without forcing it, you don't stand a chance.

[spiffdogxl]

Is there such a thing as a great swing method that doesn't require constant practice to perfect? I'm open.

[parmark]

I wish there was a thread like this helping me to replicate Freddie's swing - now that's something to behold!

[PJ72]

[quote name='trajectory' timestamp='1393267002' post='8735458']
Any way to throw a golf ball really hard side arm without leading with your elbow and resemble a human with at least a little natural ability?

You wouldn't shot-put it......you would whip it with the elbow leading....if you were using your right hand to throw.

Doesn't matter how short or long your arm is.
[/quote]

I'd like a little clarity on this issue of arm length. How does the arm length dictate the elbow position leading into impact, for example?

[Ty_Webb]

I think (and I can't be alone in this) that when Hogan talked about his secret, I don't think it was really a secret at all. I think that his secret was hard work. He dug his swing out of the dirt, meaning that he hit balls until he figured it out. But what he figured out was right for him. Doesn't make it right for me. That's not to say that there aren't parts of his motion that couldn't be useful to study. I'm sure that there are, though I'm happy to leave that to others to do.

Bottom line is Hogan was so good because he worked probably harder at it than anyone else who ever lived. When he said the secret is in the dirt, he means go and hit balls until you find what works for you. That's not something I have time to do (or if I'm being honest, the inclination either), so I'm quite happy to pay someone else who knows what he's doing to help me. I'd think it quite obnoxious though if that person then tried to shoehorn my 6'3" into Ben Hogan's 5'7" swing.

All IMO of course.

[MadGolfer76]

I have never seen someone become interested in Hogan who didn't, at some point, allow their "swing" (such as it may be after barely cracking mid-80's scores) to devolve into an inappropriate mess at some point. Getting "into Hogan" presents as more of a knee-jerk act of desperation to me than anything else. For me, when I read such threads about the "Hogan swing," I think the OP is either someone looking for validation, doesn't know how to get the job done himself, or wants to fit in with a bunch of online golf nerds who have no game. Just pollutes the whole cool factor.

[dairic]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1393285900' post='8737530']
I have never seen someone become interested in Hogan who didn't, at some point, allow their "swing" (such as it may be after barely cracking mid-80's scores) to devolve into an inappropriate mess at some point. Getting "into Hogan" presents as more of a knee-jerk act of desperation to me than anything else. For me, when I read such threads about the "Hogan swing," I think the OP is either someone looking for validation, doesn't know how to get the job done himself, or wants to fit in with a bunch of online golf nerds who have no game. Just pollutes the whole cool factor.
[/quote]

Are these online golf nerds those that have more than 10,000 active posts and have a Creature Of The Night profile pic per chance?

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1393286854' post='8737630']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1393285900' post='8737530']
I have never seen someone become interested in Hogan who didn't, at some point, allow their "swing" (such as it may be after barely cracking mid-80's scores) to devolve into an inappropriate mess at some point. Getting "into Hogan" presents as more of a knee-jerk act of desperation to me than anything else. For me, when I read such threads about the "Hogan swing," I think the OP is either someone looking for validation, doesn't know how to get the job done himself, or wants to fit in with a bunch of online golf nerds who have no game. Just pollutes the whole cool factor.
[/quote]

Are these online golf nerds those that have more than 10,000 active posts and have a Creature Of The Night profile pic per chance?
[/quote]

Depends on how many posts in the Hogan forum they have. Of the 10K I have, I believe there are 3 posts total from me over there, and those are really just flaming TylerDurden for proclaiming he "found the secret"...one weekend...when he was doing...stuff...

[fowlerscousin]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1393276677' post='8736570']
I find it kind of funny people saying his swing method is too hard to copy, suited only him and today's average golfer should not attempt it.
When today's average golfer is being taught the "modern" swing he/she is obviously finding it REALLY DIFFICULT to do.
The funny thing here is that the common group think is all about these catch phrases, centred pivot, arms in front, deep right hip and on and on, and still the average golfer can't do it with much success or ease of execution.
So if you think "modern" instruction/theory is better you are wrong because there is absolutely no proof for this belief.
is there an easy way to successfully hit the golf ball?
If there is it is not the "modern" theory going on in this forum because you only have to read it all to see that its NOT EASY.
The underlying untruth in this thread is that "modern" is better and Hogan is too hard when there is no proof at all.
[/quote]

I think theres nothing wrong with trying to copy the hogan model. Its not like he said to hold the club with the head in your hands, and its better than taking various conflicting tips from TGC. It is unhealthy to obsess over positions lol. If you just took the five lessons and practiced like hell from there you should get results.
The modern day Hogan is Jason Dufner who has eerie similarities to Ben, and hes objectively one of the best iron players in the world.
The key is to practice a ton tho lol

[dairic]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1393286959' post='8737642']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1393286854' post='8737630']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1393285900' post='8737530']
I have never seen someone become interested in Hogan who didn't, at some point, allow their "swing" (such as it may be after barely cracking mid-80's scores) to devolve into an inappropriate mess at some point. Getting "into Hogan" presents as more of a knee-jerk act of desperation to me than anything else. For me, when I read such threads about the "Hogan swing," I think the OP is either someone looking for validation, doesn't know how to get the job done himself, or wants to fit in with a bunch of online golf nerds who have no game. Just pollutes the whole cool factor.
[/quote]

Are these online golf nerds those that have more than 10,000 active posts and have a Creature Of The Night profile pic per chance?
[/quote]

Depends on how many posts in the Hogan forum they have. Of the 10K I have, I believe there are 3 posts total from me over there, and those are really just flaming TylerDurden for proclaiming he "found the secret"...one weekend...when he was doing...stuff...
[/quote]

Haha. I think everyone took a jab at TD in that thread. If there's a guy who can hold his own though it's TD. I'll never forget the spat between him and 8i. Most of it got deleted or sanitized but damn it was hilarious.

Those were good times back then when all the disfunctional personalities were allowed to post freely... Prior to the crack down.