Ball rolls into tunnel - where to drop?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Ball rolls long off backside of green onto cart path into cart path tunnel under road. There is no place to drop that's not nearer the pin unless you go to front side of green.

 

Officially where would you drop?

 

Thanks!

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Newby it's a tunnel for the carts not a drain.. Above the tunnel is a road.

Thanks

[Newby]

Is the road itself OOB?

The OOB margin extends vertically upwards and downwards

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Interesting thanks, I will have to see if it's ob along the road. I'm guessing yes it's ob so the ball would be played back at the previous location.

Thanks again!

[Colin L]

I don't think I've quite got the picture clear in my mind as yet (working on it!), but as a general principle if the nearest point of relief from an obstruction or abnormal ground condition at the back of the green happens to be at the front of the green, that's where it is.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1397406529' post='9079807']
I don't think I've quite got the picture clear in my mind as yet (working on it!), but as a general principle if the nearest point of relief from an obstruction or abnormal ground condition at the back of the green happens to be at the front of the green, that's where it is.
[/quote]

I say! That certainly would form an interesting layout. A putting green inside an amphitheatre, perhaps?

[Newby]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1397406529' post='9079807']
I don't think I've quite got the picture clear in my mind as yet (working on it!), but as a general principle if the nearest point of relief from an obstruction or abnormal ground condition at the back of the green happens to be at the front of the green, that's where it is.
[/quote]

Colin

A public road splits a course in two. The road is OOB (one would expect)
The road runs behind a green perpendicular to line of play. A cart path runs alongside the hole and round the side and back of the green to go through a tunnel under the public road to get to the other part of the course. The approach shot overruns the green and finishes in the tunnel.

[edwjmcgrath]

The boundary of the course extends up and down. If the road is OOB and the ball lies on the cart path beneath the road in a tunnel, the ball is OOB.

[Newby]

[quote name='edwjmcgrath' timestamp='1397425873' post='9082171']
The boundary of the course extends up and down. If the road is OOB and the ball lies on the cart path beneath the road in a tunnel, the ball is OOB.
[/quote]

That's what I said

[edwjmcgrath]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1397428060' post='9082569']
[quote name='edwjmcgrath' timestamp='1397425873' post='9082171']
The boundary of the course extends up and down. If the road is OOB and the ball lies on the cart path beneath the road in a tunnel, the ball is OOB.
[/quote]

That's what I said
[/quote]
Then you were right, because you agreed with me.

[Newby]

But I knew I was right because I knew I agreed with you. That's why I said it.

[Sawgrass]

Both of you guys have "tunnel vision" about this ruling.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1397480479' post='9086703']
Both of you guys have "tunnel vision" about this ruling.
[/quote]

Well, at least it looks like now they can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1397481166' post='9086769']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1397480479' post='9086703']
Both of you guys have "tunnel vision" about this ruling.
[/quote]

Well, at least it looks like now they can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
[/quote]

That's ok, as long as it isn't a train.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Thanks for all the answers. I confirmed the ob line ran over the entrance of the cart tunnel was ob, so the ball was ob. So now that I've learned the ob plane extends above and below the ruling is easy. Thanks for the help.

I will post pictures when I can because I wonder about a scenario when a ball is in the cart path tunnel, but not ob and where to drop for a hole like this. Because on this particular hole there was no point of relief at the same distance behind or sides of green due to cart paths, landscaping and rock walls surrounding the back and sides of green. I'm guessing thatt he ball would be dropped on the front side of green?

[Newby]

The reference point for determining the npr is on the ground immediately above the ball.

[Colin L]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1397497226' post='9088745']
....... Because on this particular hole there was no point of relief at the same distance behind or sides of green due to cart paths, landscaping and rock walls surrounding the back and sides of green. I'm guessing thatt he ball would be dropped on the front side of green?
[/quote]

Newby has explained about the NPR in your situation being directly above the ball in the tunnel, but you seem to have a general misunderstanding about the[i] nearest point of relief [/i](NPR) Other cart paths. landscaping, rock walls are immaterial to where an NPR might be as it is simply the nearest point on the course where there is no interference from the obstruction or abnormal ground condition from which you are taking relief. It doesn't matter that you may not physically be able to hit the ball at the NPR - it is just a reference point . Decision 24-2b/3 and the ones following will explain it all to you. [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-24/#d24-2b-3"]http://www.usga.org/...on-24/#d24-2b-3[/url]

[kurob]

A par 5 at my course has this, and if you're going for it in 2...you're pretty much aiming down the cart path left of the green due to everything feeding right. Balls get in there more than you'd think. There is about 20 - 25 feet of tunnel that isn't under the road (and therefore is inbounds) where this exact situation can occur. For tournaments, the inside of the tunnel is actually marked with an OB line which persists for most of the year, being out of the weather and all. In our situation, NPR is right above the tunnel, and it's playable from there...but it's very difficult to ascertain exactly where to drop. It's happened to me once, and I measured how far I was in bounds by then took NPR on top of the tunnel exactly that far from the edge of the curb. I suppose a FC could laser you on the OOB line in the tunnel, then laser you on top of the tunnel to add precision...I think this is exactly how the line in painted, in fact, since you can't tell from inside where the road edge is.

[rogolf]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1397497226' post='9088745']
Thanks for all the answers. I confirmed the ob line ran over the entrance of the cart tunnel was ob, so the ball was ob. So now that I've learned the ob plane extends above and below the ruling is easy. Thanks for the help.

I will post pictures when I can because I wonder about a scenario when a ball is in the cart path tunnel, but not ob and where to drop for a hole like this. Because on this particular hole there was[b] no point of relief at the same distance[/b] behind or sides of green due to cart paths, landscaping and rock walls surrounding the back and sides of green. I'm guessing thatt he ball would be dropped on the front side of green?
[/quote]

In addition to what others have said, the nearest point of relief does not need to be equidistant from the hole, it just can not be closer to the hole than where the ball originally lay.

[Graymulligan]

There's no way this isn't Eagle Vale, right?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

[quote name='Graymulligan' timestamp='1397568216' post='9095309']
There's no way this isn't Eagle Vale, right?
[/quote]

No it's not Eaglevale but I've played Eaglevale and 10 is similar.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Thanks--- You've answered my original question-- the ball rolled far enough into the tunnel such that it crossed the OB plane as defined by the stakes above the tunnel. So now that I know that, the ball would be replayed back at original location of the previous shot. Thanks for the helpful answers!

What I'm not exactly clear on is if the ball had [b][u]not[/u][/b] rolled far enough into the tunnel to be OB. If I could figure out how to post a picture, you’d see the area around the tunnel where one might determine as the Nearest Point of Relief is not really accessible given the tiered rock wall and landscaping. Even if you can climb to the top side of the tunnel what do you do? The drop from the top side would end up on the rocks or landscaping-- which really can't be played. Even dropping left or right of the green not nearer the pin doesn't leave you much either as you’d either be on the cart path or in the landscaping or rock wall. If I understand the rule correctly the NPR need not be playable, right? So what's a person to do? Keep dropping and hoping the ball will roll to a location where it can be played? Can the golfer go back to the location of the original shot and replay as stroke and distance just like they would for an OB shot? If the NPR is on the front side of green in the fairway can it be played from there?

I’d love to post the picture, but can’t figure out how. When I paste the image into the browser window I get an error saying message is too short.

As an FYI we told our friend to just take it out of the tunnel, drop it on some grass that was just off the cart path at the tunnel entrance, take a stroke and play it from there. No money was on the line, we were just out enjoying golf with friends in the sun and warmth, but it left us all wondering what the proper way is to handle?

[Colin L]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1397666424' post='9104721'].........we were just out enjoying golf with friends in the sun and warmth,.......
[/quote]

I like that bit.

[Graymulligan]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1397615813' post='9101365']
[quote name='Graymulligan' timestamp='1397568216' post='9095309']
There's no way this isn't Eagle Vale, right?
[/quote]

No it's not Eaglevale but I've played Eaglevale and 10 is similar.
[/quote]

Darnit...I was so sure! lol

[cardoustie]

Course behind my house has two holes that are like this ..

I have a similar question re: being on a wooden bridge above a yellow hazard, the bridge entrance and exit is not marked yellow

[Newby]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1397669675' post='9105041']
Course behind my house has two holes that are like this ..

I have a similar question re: being on a wooden bridge above a yellow hazard, the bridge entrance and exit is not marked yellow
[/quote]

The margins of a WH extend vertically up and down. The parts of the bridge within the margins are in the WH. If the surface of the bridge extends beyond the natural or implied (by stakes/lines elsewhere) margins, the committee should mark them clearly as in or out.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1397666424' post='9104721']
Thanks--- You've answered my original question-- the ball rolled far enough into the tunnel such that it crossed the OB plane as defined by the stakes above the tunnel. So now that I know that, the ball would be replayed back at original location of the previous shot. Thanks for the helpful answers!

What I'm not exactly clear on is if the ball had [b][u]not[/u][/b] rolled far enough into the tunnel to be OB. If I could figure out how to post a picture, you’d see the area around the tunnel where one might determine as the Nearest Point of Relief is not really accessible given the tiered rock wall and landscaping. Even if you can climb to the top side of the tunnel what do you do? The drop from the top side would end up on the rocks or landscaping-- which really can't be played. Even dropping left or right of the green not nearer the pin doesn't leave you much either as you’d either be on the cart path or in the landscaping or rock wall. If I understand the rule correctly the NPR need not be playable, right? So what's a person to do? Keep dropping and hoping the ball will roll to a location where it can be played? Can the golfer go back to the location of the original shot and replay as stroke and distance just like they would for an OB shot? If the NPR is on the front side of green in the fairway can it be played from there?

I’d love to post the picture, but can’t figure out how. When I paste the image into the browser window I get an error saying message is too short.

As an FYI we told our friend to just take it out of the tunnel, drop it on some grass that was just off the cart path at the tunnel entrance, take a stroke and play it from there. No money was on the line, we were just out enjoying golf with friends in the sun and warmth, but it left us all wondering what the proper way is to handle?
[/quote]


So, if you're in the tunnel but this position is technically in bounds, I'd leave the ball where it is, and next look at the area on top of the tunnel to see if I'd really want to take a shot from there. Once I pick up my ball, I can no longer drop it or place it back where it is. If I like my chances up above, off I go. If I don't like my chances up above at all (thick bushes let's say) I'd have to decide whether I wanted to hit my ball out of the tunnel, even if I'm on a paved path, or go back to the spot from where I had hit into the tunnel. Often, for me, hitting off a cart path or even putting off it is better than going way back.

The most important thing in all of the above analysis is to make sure you still blame yourself for hitting into the tunnel in the first place. If you start blaming the rules for not giving you a decent drop area -- you lose your soul. (That's real bad.)

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1397669675' post='9105041']
Course behind my house has two holes that are like this ..

I have a similar question re: being on a wooden bridge above a yellow hazard, the bridge entrance and exit is not marked yellow
[/quote]

Unless the water hazard is in some way marked to exclude the bridge, the bridge is in the hazard. You don't get relief from an immovable obstruction in a water hazard, so you're pretty much stuck with it. The one possible advantage you have in dealing with this is that you are allowed to ground your club on the obstruction (the bridge) while you're of course not allowed to ground it in the unobstructed parts of the hazard . Yeah! What a deal!

Edit: Whoops, I didn't see that Newby already covered the bridge thing, and he has. Lucky that I added the almost irrelevant stuff about grounding your club!

[cardoustie]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1397674227' post='9105593']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1397669675' post='9105041']
Course behind my house has two holes that are like this ..

I have a similar question re: being on a wooden bridge above a yellow hazard, the bridge entrance and exit is not marked yellow
[/quote]

Unless the water hazard is in some way marked to exclude the bridge, the bridge is in the hazard. You don't get relief from an immovable obstruction in a water hazard, so you're pretty much stuck with it. The one possible advantage you have in dealing with this is that you are allowed to ground your club on the obstruction (the bridge) while you're of course not allowed to ground it in the unobstructed parts of the hazard . Yeah! What a deal!

Edit: Whoops, I didn't see that Newby already covered the bridge thing, and he has. Lucky that I added the almost irrelevant stuff about grounding your club!
[/quote]

The grounding part was good to know, I had no idea on that, THANKS

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1397497452' post='9088779']
The reference point for determining the npr is on the ground immediately above the ball.
[/quote]

Maybe in this case but not in general. See last chapter of [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-24/#d24-2b-11"]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-24/#d24-2b-11[/url]