Manual de la Torre Method

[The Pearl]

Hey Nut,

Yes, the only difference is that I visualize it from my point of view as the golfer, rather than face on.

[nut]

Cool.

Thanks, Pearl.

[juststeve]

Great photo posted by Nut. I caution all not to become too focused on making the forward swing inside and in front of the back swing as shown in the photo. It is what will happen naturally if you swing back with both hands and forward with both arms. In other words, it is the automatic result of swinging properly, not something we need to do intentionally.

Steve

[lsh]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1401803180' post='9420573']
[quote name='lsh' timestamp='1401792436' post='9419657']
[quote name='99andaflake' timestamp='1401749005' post='9416899']
This thread has inspired me to purchase and read De la Torre's book. I'm hoping someone can add some clarification for me.

In both the book and the golf channel video posted earlier in this thread, Manuel demonstrates a slow motion swing where the whole club, not just the clubhead, returns to the address position on the downswing. To do this, I feel I have to consciously use my wrists; If I don't use the wrists, I end up with forward shaft lean, i.e the shaft is not in the same position as it is at address (but is essentially at a 'textbook' impact position). What confuses me is that the slow motion drill requires you to consciously use a body part which should have no intent associated with it in the full speed swing.

Can someone who's met Manuel clarify what the intent should be in the slow motion drills? At the moment it seems odd to me that you would rehearse a motion that essentially causes you to trace the entire path of backswing down again in slow motion, even though in the full speed swing, the desired result is to have a different path on the downswing.

Cheers,
Greg
[/quote]
Not an expert by any means. My understanding of Manuel's teachings is he does not advocate a forward leaning shaft. At address with the grip neutral and the clubhead behind the ball the club should point toward the center of the body.
I have only read the book twice now and had a two hour lesson a couple weeks ago so I am hesitant to offer advice. During my lesson Manny emphasized swinging the club to the target with the arms. I had a couple faults while swining. 1) was I swung to the left of the target too much usually due to starting with the shoulders and not swinging with the arms. 2) swinging the clubhead at the ball. ( fixing this was a key for me )
For #2 what worked for me recently was remembering in the book the hand motion drill where you extend your arm and move your hand back and forth. ( Hand motion ) Then keeping your wrist loose and moving your hand back and forth by moving your arm rapidly back & forth.
My last round I focused on swinging the club with my arms while keeping my wrists loose. This kept me from trying to control the club with my hands and throwing the clubhead at the ball.
I hate to talk about it for fear of jinxing myself but after Sundays round I am really feeling good about this.
A different Steve.
[/quote]

How was your lesson?
[/quote]
I only had 2 hour and it flew by. We talked a few minutes and I told him my history, that I had just read throuh his book once and was trying to implement it. I wish I'd have recorded the lesson as I am having trouble remembering his nuggets.
I would hit a ball and he would say clubhead, or shoulders, or not to the target, or that was good.
He told me I had a good swing and needed to focus on swinging the entire club to the target. A couple times he had me place the club in front of the ball then point it to the target. Then he would say swing to there.
I am glad I did it and would do it again soon if I had the money.

[golfdog1955]

Thanks to everyone who has made this topic an interesting read. Ish I really appreciate you sharing that tip on placing the club in front of the ball and pointing to the target and swinging through there. It frees me from focusing on the ball and just swinging the club and trusting it. If it goes astray then it is because I didnt let the club swing and I do not have to go down the rabbit hole wondering what part of my body betrayed me this time lol I also have been such a fearful golfer in that I see all the bad places where a ball can go,and I try like hell to steer it away from those places which creates tension and a fair share of craziness, its nice only to see where you want it to go and then trust the process. That little tidbit clicks with me big time.

[lsh]

[quote name='golfdog1955' timestamp='1401890686' post='9428245']
Thanks to everyone who has made this topic an interesting read. Ish I really appreciate you sharing that tip on placing the club in front of the ball and pointing to the target and swinging through there. It frees me from focusing on the ball and just swinging the club and trusting it. If it goes astray then it is because I didnt let the club swing and I do not have to go down the rabbit hole wondering what part of my body betrayed me this time lol I also have been such a fearful golfer in that I see all the bad places where a ball can go,and I try like hell to steer it away from those places which creates tension and a fair share of craziness, its nice only to see where you want it to go and then trust the process. That little tidbit clicks with me big time.
[/quote]
Manny said it would give me a sense of where to swing and not worry about the rest as momentum would carry it to the end. It reminds me that we discussed how wrong he felt the swing guru's were to have their golfers working so hard to swing left asd the extreme left practice swings.
Steve

[rondo01]

Just wanted to say that I'm brand new to this (5 total times at the driving range, played 1 9 hole) and had a terrifically terrible time the first four outings, play wise. It's been wild fun hanging with pals, but I was hardly able to hit anything...they kept telling me to keep my head down, sing down on the ball, rotate through - all the "usual stuff" but yesterday I discovered this thread, read it all the way through, went to the range this morning and was nailing shot after shot. As usual, a "friend" comes over to help and of course, it doesn't work. He leaves, I clear the mind and start nailing shots again.

I will be buying this reading material ASAP.

However, you guys who have been doing this for some time, is there anything you'd want to tell a brand new player, regarding this method? Perhaps something to really focus in on?

[juststeve]

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1401939352' post='9433327']
Just wanted to say that I'm brand new to this (5 total times at the driving range, played 1 9 hole) and had a terrifically terrible time the first four outings, play wise. It's been wild fun hanging with pals, but I was hardly able to hit anything...they kept telling me to keep my head down, sing down on the ball, rotate through - all the "usual stuff" but yesterday I discovered this thread, read it all the way through, went to the range this morning and was nailing shot after shot. As usual, a "friend" comes over to help and of course, it doesn't work. He leaves, I clear the mind and start nailing shots again.

I will be buying this reading material ASAP.

However, you guys who have been doing this for some time, is there anything you'd want to tell a brand new player, regarding this method? Perhaps something to really focus in on?
[/quote]

1. At least buy read and re-read Manny's book. If you are Able go see the man himself in Milwaukee. No better way to learn and he is teaching today. A fall back is to find an instructor in your area that teaches what Manny teaches. You can find names on Manny's web page.

2. Forget everything you think you know about swinging a golf club and do it Manny's way exclusively. Every swing you make should be a Manny swing. Ignore suggestions from helpful friends, the internet, magazines or golf instruction book other than Manny's.

3. Don't expect instant gratification. First you must learn to make the club SWING. Few golfer actually make the club swing. You must learn to do that, then you need to learn to make the club swing toward the target. Once you learn those things you must learn to do them consistently, then to do them well and consistently, then do them as well as you can consistently. This is a process that takes a lot of repetitions.

4. Manny's swing is easy to learn because there are only a few things you need to do well to make the whole swing work. The reason so many people fail to learn the swing is they succumb to the temptation to add this or that to the method, something they read in a book, something their favorite golfer suggested, something they got of the internet. I assure you that if there was anything else you need to do Manny would have put it in the book.

Steve

[sprcoop]

I have decided to embrace the Manuel Torre system via Ernest Jones. Here's why.

I have been struggling with a system for about two years. It's kind of a position oriented like Jim Mclean's 8 positions with some feeling thrown in. I will be the first to admit that I have not really put the effort in to be sure why I have such limited success. For example I have gone to the driving range twice a week for two weeks straight. 30 minutes short chips and pitches probably 45 minutes hitting a 70 ball bucket and 20 minutes putting. This is like a record for concentrated practice. I play 18 about once a month. Occasionally in the 80's, usually closer to 100.

Today I was hoping for a good day because my diligent practice of the last 2 weeks. I had recently seen a post on WRX that had the Ben Hogan drill demonstrated on the Ed Sullivan show. The drill reminded me of something I had read from either Manuel Torres or Ernest Jones about swinging pocket knife tied to a handkerchief or something.

I always like that rhythmic non thinking kind of swing. First time I saw it was on a VHS tape "Automatic Golf". Get swinging like that with a row of balls and just start stepping and letting the ball get in the way. I was pretty good at it.

I had a good warm up hitting 10 balls on the range (I didn't want to over do it) before heading to the first tee. After being 20 over on the front (included one PAR, 0 three putts and 2 plus 5 holes) I decided to do away with all swing thoughts and swing the club like Hogan was in the drill. So I would do that little drill before every shot. Nobody was behind us and my playing partner didn't mind. I had rubbed off on him so he gave up and he played the back nine for practice. It was a very nice course we play for $14 that included a cart. The Preserve at Saddle Brooke in Saddle Brooke AZ.

Back 9. 7 GIR, 1 triple bogie with a 3 putt from 20 feet, one bogie (missed a fairway and had to punch out and take my medicine) and I gave away 3 birdies inside 10 feet. The last on 18 from 5 feet. Oh yeah, one 310 yd wind assisted (it was blowing pretty good all day) downhill drive (measured with GPS). 20 over on the front, 4 over on the back for a crowd pleasing 96. Usually my 96's are 12 over on the front and 12 over on the back.

I've had the Ernest Jones "Swing the Club Head" book for a couple years. Maybe I should read it?

[northgolf]

I read E. Jones decades before I read MDLT. It was on the second reading that I took to MDLT - I prefer his concept of swinging the entire club on the forward swing. I tend to flip when I just focus on the club head.

[juststeve]

Both Manny and Jones were firmly of the opinion that if you properly swing the club the body will respond automatically in a manner that is proper for you. The Hogan drill you describe is no part of either method, although it might be very helpful for someone that wants to swing in a way other than taught by Manny or Jones. The Key to learning any method is to remain within the confines of the method. In other words a little Hogan doesn't mix well with either Jones or de la Torre.

Steve.

[The Pearl]

For me, the most crucial aspect of Manuel's principle continues to be this part of the backswing concept; "swing the clubhead in the direction of the right shoulder with both hands." I am sheepish to admit that I never really read this part with precision. I have always read it as "club", not clubhead. Prior, I was trying to visualize the entire club swinging in the direction of the right shoulder which randomly had me taking the club too far outside (on shorter clubs) and inside (on longer clubs). As a result of focusing on swinging the clubhead in the direction of the right shoulder, I am finding it MUCH EASIER, in fact, almost automatic that I am able to naturally transition to using the upper arms in the forward swing WITHOUT consciously trying to make this happen. My own take on this is that by creating the mental picture of only swinging the clubhead in the direction of the right shoulder, the swing is on the proper arc and my brain does not tell the arms or hands to make the necessary adjustment, which we all know is the road to inconsistency.

[sjsdogsrule]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1402935703' post='9506871']
My own take on this is that by creating the mental picture of only swinging the clubhead in the direction of the right shoulder
[/quote]
I've read the book, only once so far. What is that mental image that you have? When I read the sentence, I get an image of a backswing where my hands get too close to my right shoulder.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='sjsdogsrule' timestamp='1402940006' post='9507349']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1402935703' post='9506871']
My own take on this is that by creating the mental picture of only swinging the clubhead in the direction of the right shoulder
[/quote]
I've read the book, only once so far. What is that mental image that you have? When I read the sentence, I get an image of a backswing where my hands get too close to my right shoulder.
[/quote]

I interpret the concept as that the clubhead must simultaneously move back, up and inside the target line on the swing arc. A good guide would be the Practice Exercise in Chapter 5 on page 109. I am sure many of us have noticed the similarity of this exercise and how Moe Norman starts his swing from this position. I may be reading too much into your statement "my hands get too close to my right shoulder", so forgive me if I am making a poor extrapolation here, but remember, the right shoulder turns during the backswing so you must think of the swinging motion on the arc rather than a straight line from the address position of the clubhead to your right shoulder. This mental picture, in my opinion, would promote an unwelcomed picking up of the club, rather than a swinging motion. For me, if I can get the first 12 to 18 inches correct, than the rest will take care of itself.

As Manuel suggests, the radius of the swing is established at the address position and if you are having problems with maintaining the radius to try to keep the hands as far away from you as possible on the backswing.

[sjsdogsrule]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1402941930' post='9507599']
[quote name='sjsdogsrule' timestamp='1402940006' post='9507349']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1402935703' post='9506871']
My own take on this is that by creating the mental picture of only swinging the clubhead in the direction of the right shoulder
[/quote]
I've read the book, only once so far. What is that mental image that you have? When I read the sentence, I get an image of a backswing where my hands get too close to my right shoulder.
[/quote]

I interpret the concept as that the clubhead must simultaneously move back, up and inside the target line on the swing arc. A good guide would be the Practice Exercise in Chapter 5 on page 109. I am sure many of us have noticed the similarity of this exercise and how Moe Norman starts his swing from this position. I may be reading too much into your statement "my hands get too close to my right shoulder", so forgive me if I am making a poor extrapolation here, but remember, the right shoulder turns during the backswing so you must think of the swinging motion on the arc rather than a straight line from the address position of the clubhead to your right shoulder. This mental picture, in my opinion, would promote an unwelcomed picking up of the club, rather than a swinging motion. For me, if I can get the first 12 to 18 inches correct, than the rest will take care of itself.

As Manuel suggests, the radius of the swing is established at the address position and if you are having problems with maintaining the radius to try to keep the hands as far away from you as possible on the backswing.
[/quote]
Thanks for the explanation. I'll review the practice exercise tonight.

[Cicero]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1402935703' post='9506871']For me, the most crucial aspect of Manuel's principle continues to be this part of the backswing concept; "swing the clubhead in the direction of the right shoulder with both hands." I am sheepish to admit that I never really read this part with precision. I have always read it as "club", not clubhead. Prior, I was trying to visualize the entire club swinging in the direction of the right shoulder which randomly had me taking the club too far outside (on shorter clubs) and inside (on longer clubs). As a result of focusing on swinging the clubhead in the direction of the right shoulder, I am finding it MUCH EASIER, in fact, almost automatic that I am able to naturally transition to using the upper arms in the forward swing WITHOUT consciously trying to make this happen. My own take on this is that by creating the mental picture of only swinging the clubhead in the direction of the right shoulder, the swing is on the proper arc and my brain does not tell the arms or hands to make the necessary adjustment, which we all know is the road to inconsistency.[/quote]

I've been doing the same thing as you did with the backswing. I glossed over the clubhead detail. After reading your post, I made some swings focusing on taking the clubhead back in the direction of my right shoulder. Big difference. Not too many things to think about with this swing, but the things that you do need to focus on are apparently pretty important

[roman169]

I am also into the Manuel's method since two months after trying and struggling for years. Finally there is light at the end of the tunnel. Sometimes it is very difficult to stick to it and not start to fall back into bad habits and try to "correct" the swing on course after one or two bad shots. Just reading "Learning golf with Manuel" from John Hayes, helps a lot.

I am struggling with 3 and 5 wood with this method? I think i am not finishing the turn properly and start to hurry up on downswing. Any thoughts?

[sprcoop]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1402927672' post='9505991']
Both Manny and Jones were firmly of the opinion that if you properly swing the club the body will respond automatically in a manner that is proper for you. The Hogan drill you describe is no part of either method, although it might be very helpful for someone that wants to swing in a way other than taught by Manny or Jones. The Key to learning any method is to remain within the confines of the method. In other words a little Hogan doesn't mix well with either Jones or de la Torre.

Steve.
[/quote]

I definitely see what you mean about mixing and matching not being a good thing. It was just an impression I had watching the Hogan drill that reminded me of the handkerchief pocketknife thing and the Automatic Golf drill. Hogan looked like he was just turning through and the club was along for the ride.

It was a desperation on course fix that was a total departure from what I have been working on. With pleasantly shocking results.

Flipping through the Ernest Jones Swing the Club Head book I see the handkerchief. Haven't read any of it though.

I will have to read the Ernest Jones book and probably pick one up from de la Torre to decide which direction to go.

[Cicero]

For you guys who have been using this method for a minute (Steve, pearl, etc), how do you ensure your body is properly responsive, as opposed to just swinging the arms with the body just standing there? What if you do when the body is being "uncooperative"?

[juststeve]

[quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1403878048' post='9589681']
For you guys who have been using this method for a minute (Steve, pearl, etc), how do you ensure your body is properly responsive, as opposed to just swinging the arms with the body just standing there? What if you do when the body is being "uncooperative"?
[/quote]

I've never experienced that problem but I have seen Manny teach those who have. Depending on the individual he focuses on:

1. Getting the tension out of the body so it can respond;

2. Keeping weight evenly distributed on both feet until the momentum of the swing moves the weight to the front foot;

3. Swinging the club in a continuous motion all the way to the end of the swing;

4. Truly swinging the club backwards and forwards on an arc, not pulling or pushing it on a straight line.

The converse of any of those things doesn't work well for the swing Manny teaches.

Steve

[The Pearl]

[quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1403878048' post='9589681']
For you guys who have been using this method for a minute (Steve, pearl, etc), how do you ensure your body is properly responsive, as opposed to just swinging the arms with the body just standing there? What if you do when the body is being "uncooperative"?
[/quote]

When I play less than stellar golf, it is usually because my body is "uncooperative." That is such a good word. The tips above by Steve are spot on. For me it is what many on here describe as "pulling the handle." I add tension and just yank from the top causing the upper arms to stop the swinging motion and I really never finish the swing.

Not much else I can add.

[ericpaul2]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1403887202' post='9590769']
[quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1403878048' post='9589681']
For you guys who have been using this method for a minute (Steve, pearl, etc), how do you ensure your body is properly responsive, as opposed to just swinging the arms with the body just standing there? What if you do when the body is being "uncooperative"?
[/quote]

When I play less than stellar golf, it is usually because my body is "uncooperative." That is such a good word. The tips above by Steve are spot on. For me it is what many on here describe as "pulling the handle." I add tension and just yank from the top causing the upper arms to stop the swinging motion and I really never finish the swing.

Not much else I can add.
[/quote]

I think this is exactly why Manuel stresses swinging the whole club. Pull just the handle from the top, and you have to flip the clubhead through the ball at the end or suffer a truly horrendous wipe across the ball. Swing the just the clubhead and it has a habit of out-racing the handle and resulting in thin, topped shots or just the classic weak cast.

The more you just think about swinging the whole club to the target, the faster your body learns to do it without any conscious thought of specific muscle movement. Once that has begun, you'll truly discover the importance of setup because your swing becomes extremely consistent. Changes to alignment, ball position and grip have very repeatable effects on your shot trajectory and behavior as long as you focus on swinging the whole club and nothing else.

I've found the journey to be truly eye-opening now that I now what to focus on. The latest set up issue that has impacted my consistency is my weight distribution from heel to toe in my feet. I was apparently a little to far to the heel and had the occasional thin shot. Now I'm setting up with the weight a little more centered (just behind the balls of my feet) and playing the best golf since I was a teenager and could play everyday. Now if I could just learn how to judge speed with my putter, things would be to good to be true.

[tm3]

do you MDLT students find that swinging a weighted club or rope with a weight or any other home practice helps learning and reinforcing the process?

[trapsmv15]

As I struggle with building clubs and a swing to work for/with my legs disability, I essentially find myself swinging the club a lot like Manuel suggests. Two plane, arms swing (ala Flick), etc - somewhat all similar.

However, I need to avoid sucking my arms into my body and spinning out, hitting a pull-fade, or quitting on swinging the club to the target, hitting a downward, fat push-slice. Anyone have any more different images or thoughts on "swinging the club to the target"?

[ericpaul2]

Do you suck the club to the inside on the takeaway, or the downswing?

Either way, you need to start by swinging the club up over your right should while allowing the body to respond. That means your shoulders and torso should turn as well.

On the downswing, you must swing to the target. It can be easy to swing at the ball, but the target is not the ball, it's where you want the ball to go.

if you don't take the club away as described, the club could be in a position that makes it easy to swipe across the ball creating the shots you describe.

If you swing at the ball, it also becomes easy to swipe across the ball and let the body stop turning with the swinging arms and club.

But, think of the club, never a position or of turning you body or any body part.

It's always possible your disability is creating some other problem, but since players can play well from their knees, or sitting down, or even as parapeligics, I doubt that is the case.

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='ericpaul2' timestamp='1403996613' post='9598611']Do you suck the club to the inside on the takeaway, or the downswing?

Either way, you need to start by swinging the club up over your right should while allowing the body to respond. That means your shoulders and torso should turn as well.

On the downswing, you must swing to the target. It can be easy to swing at the ball, but the target is not the ball, it's where you want the ball to go.

if you don't take the club away as described, the club could be in a position that makes it easy to swipe across the ball creating the shots you describe.

If you swing at the ball, it also becomes easy to swipe across the ball and let the body stop turning with the swinging arms and club.

But, think of the club, never a position or of turning you body or any body part.

It's always possible your disability is creating some other problem, but since players can play well from their knees, or sitting down, or even as parapeligics, I doubt that is the case.[/quote]
I struggle with both the backswing and downswing in that regard, but as you suggest, my backswing is slightly inside and then up with a toe diagonal halfway as opposed to toe up. I have a habit of the downswing at swinging at the ball, but that's also with that bad backswing.

[The Pearl]

So I have a theoretical question for JustSteve and the rest of the MDLT crew regarding a thought concerning arm speed and body response.

First of all, are arm speed and body response closely related?

Secondly, is it possible for those, such as myself, that are getting less than ideal body response and at times less distance before, that we could be swinging the entire club with our upper arms TOO slowly so that we are not generating enough speed to cause the body to respond?

[Cicero]

I think you're on to something, Pearl. The faster I swing the club, the more responsive my body is. It moves differently on a pitch than it does a really fast swing.

I'm also coming to believe that the openness of the body and hips at impact are more a reflection of flexibility than being strictly a position to consciously try to attain in the swing.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if some golfers needed some "occupational therapy" to kind of remind their bodies how to properly respond to the swinging of the club, especially someone who picked up the game late in life and doesn't have much athletic experience swinging a stick.

[juststeve]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404085630' post='9603909']
So I have a theoretical question for JustSteve and the rest of the MDLT crew regarding a thought concerning arm speed and body response.

First of all, are arm speed and body response closely related?

Secondly, is it possible for those, such as myself, that are getting less than ideal body response and at times less distance before, that we could be swinging the entire club with our upper arms TOO slowly so that we are not generating enough speed to cause the body to respond?
[/quote]

Yes, the body will respond by moving more and faster as your swing the club with your arms farther and faster.

Distance comes from arm speed. When you reach the point where you can swing your arms no faster, you have reached your maximum distance given a particular quality of strike.

Perhaps if you could describe what your body is doing or not doing I can offer a suggestion about what to do to correct it, but remember, we judge the quality of a swing by what the club does, not what the body does.

Steve

[The Pearl]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1404133656' post='9606697']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404085630' post='9603909']
So I have a theoretical question for JustSteve and the rest of the MDLT crew regarding a thought concerning arm speed and body response.

First of all, are arm speed and body response closely related?

Secondly, is it possible for those, such as myself, that are getting less than ideal body response and at times less distance before, that we could be swinging the entire club with our upper arms TOO slowly so that we are not generating enough speed to cause the body to respond?
[/quote]

Yes, the body will respond by moving more and faster as your swing the club with your arms farther and faster.

Distance comes from arm speed. When you reach the point where you can swing your arms no faster, you have reached your maximum distance given a particular quality of strike.

Perhaps if you could describe what your body is doing or not doing I can offer a suggestion about what to do to correct it, but remember, we judge the quality of a swing by what the club does, not what the body does.

Steve
[/quote]

Hi Steve,

Yes, I understand when we enter into any "body" discussion that we are creeping on the dark side! Here is where I tend to go astray. In terms of Manny's concept I tend to swing the club not over the right shoulder, but what you may consider below it. In traditional golf instruction I tend to be inside and below the proper plane, if you will. In an effort to get back to the ball I tend to what I describe as a "chop from the top." Basically a rerouting of the club over the top and coming in steep and outside the arc. When I do this there is zero sensation/concept of swinging the entire club with the upper arms. In terms of body, my entire body virtually stalls as I hammer the club down at the ball. A somewhat picturesque combination of golf swing, wood chop motion! Obviously I can certainly feel that my arms are not accelerating and when this swing takes shape, I never finish it.

Now, it does not look that bad, but the results are a low pull, a nice straight shot which is really a swipe of the ball in disguise, or at the most extreme a weak flare to the right.

To some extent I have answered my own question. I can speed up my arms all I want but because I am not moving the club properly, the arms really have no where to go. In fact, neither does the body.