Jim Venetos golf swing?

[eightiron]

So Venitos gets hammered for saying snake oil salesman but when the resident. gurus smoke other instructors it's cool , lmfao . Is that a definition of hypocritical ?

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='golfinglarrypiersall' timestamp='1410713270' post='10115579']
Jim can you explain how the ball curves? Left to right and then right to left? Thanks
[/quote]

Gladly. An inside out swing path will always produce a tight draw and when you hold the face open through impact the ball will start on the same line but fade at the end of ball flight. If you need to create more shape, then you can adjust your ball position to impart more side spin on the ball.

[golfinglarrypiersall]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1410713461' post='10115587']
So Venitos gets hammered for saying snake oil salesman but when the resident. gurus smoke other instructors it's cool , lmfao . Is that a definition of hypocritical ?
[/quote]
I think Venitos is the only one smoking at the moment...

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1410713461' post='10115587']
So Venitos gets hammered for saying snake oil salesman but when the resident. gurus smoke other instructors it's cool , lmfao . Is that a definition of hypocritical ?
[/quote]

Thanks 8 iron, my thoughts exactly. If you put the same effort into disproving the popular theories as you do with disproving me you'd find that the popular theories of managing movements through intangible terms like rhythm, tempo and timing have many flaws in their logic.

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1410712678' post='10115545']
I've got the popcorn ready. Gonna be a fun day of nfl and watching this thread among other things. Keep it up Jim, I'm certain that your condescension is gaining you many new students!
[/quote]

I'm not here to gain students, just here answering questions.

[bph7]

[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410713842' post='10115607']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1410712678' post='10115545']
I've got the popcorn ready. Gonna be a fun day of nfl and watching this thread among other things. Keep it up Jim, I'm certain that your condescension is gaining you many new students!
[/quote]

I'm not here to gain students, just here answering questions.
[/quote]

Well, if you aren't here to gain students, I'd say mission accomplished. I will now exit your thread, I'm just gonna watch and enjoy.

[craniac24]

One of Venetos' lessons. If your "pro" doesn't understand what rolling shutter effect is, and instead tells you that your shaft is flexing early, you might want to find a new pro.

http://www.powerchalk.com/video/102708_5004-7PE8-RFTK-JCI4-CHLK/play

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1410711804' post='10115485']
[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410709155' post='10115361']
[quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1410561612' post='10108847']
I'm skeptical as well on those LD distances with this type of swing ...

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ6h8RP-JeM"]https://www.youtube....h?v=RQ6h8RP-JeM[/url]

... unless the qualifier was held on a runway at LAX.
[/quote][quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1410561612' post='10108847']
I'm skeptical as well on those LD distances with this type of swing ...

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ6h8RP-JeM"]https://www.youtube....h?v=RQ6h8RP-JeM[/url]

... unless the qualifier was held on a runway at LAX.
[/quote]

Ha! Hilarious! Look, I'm not trying to sell you on this swing, I'm just answering questions with truth and logic yet a few of you seem so certain that you know better. I know that's human nature to be skeptical but you guys are putting yourselves in the "I thought the world was flat category". The qualifier wasn't on a runway, it was at a grid. Don't hate, try to prove me wrong with some logic and not your feelings or beliefs that you've accumulated as high handicappers.
[/quote]

Not a high handicapper here and with all due respect ...

You're trying to bottle and sell a swing that hundreds of amateurs across the country and world already possess. I can name 5 guys at my club that swing like you do and can also guarantee that not one of them knows you. Name one professional golfer that swings like you do and please back up CLSS' comment with evidence about the guys who making "chex" with your swing.
[/quote]

I'm not bottling or selling anything. I have a ton of content on youtube for free.

Golfers who swing using the left side of their bodies...Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, Tiger in the late 90s early 2000s, Fred Couples, Louis oosthuizen, Steve Elkington, Moe Norman. It's important to note that I teach a left dominant swing and for the general public I teach them the deep pre-set of the closed set up position so that they can access the left side of their bodies. The pros I mentioned don't have to pre-set as deep in the set up because they are great golf athletes who can maintain the dominance of their left sides, but a keen eye can see that they all do have a left dominant pre-set(freddy's strong grip, elks closed shoulders, Bobby's weight and head, Jack's head, Player's closed feet, Moe Norman's closed set up, Tiger and Louis' left arm). Below is an analysis I did of Jones's swing and mine to show the similarities.

http://www.powerchalk.com/video/102708_5T90-I8E8-9EB3-8X3F-CHLK/play/embed

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='craniac24' timestamp='1410712228' post='10115511']
[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410710763' post='10115425']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1410562275' post='10108889']
Let's take a look at this swing
Setup
1. right hand looks considerably. under
2.unless there is parallax issue the feet look somewhat closed,with the shoulders and hips very closed
3.Both feet toed out .Can not figure the purpose of doing so with the right foot since there is no hip rotation in the swing
4.Left hip outside left heel at setup with weight obviously on his left foot/leg
5.Both legs pretty straight at setup
Going back there is a surprising amount of shoulder turn ,indicating above average flexibility and an above average amount of wrist set.His shoulder turn is enough to almost get the shaft parrallel despite NO hip rotation
During the swing there is NO Discernible hip rotation that i can see .There is some lateral movement at the hips going down resulting in the outside of his left hip well outside his left heel and weight shifting towards the target
He maintains his leverage very well going down and obviously possess above average athletic ability and hand-eye coordination

To attack other instructors as snake oil salesmen is a strong and uncalled for pejorative.,although I do agree that most pros are not good instructors


Conclusion
His setup is somewhat similar to what a golfer should use if he has to hit a ball under a tree limb and have it hook left
Can it improve the average golfer .Maybe
[/quote]

I'm not attacking other instructors, but if there concepts worked, don't you think the average golfer would be better and the pros would all swing similarly? Also, your analysis of my swing is inaccurate. I clearly have my left leg bent more than my right. I clearly pivot my hips and shoulders in the set up which contradicts your thought that I'm using flexibility to create my swing. In fact, I'm one of the least flexible athletes you will come across. And, this set up allows any golfer to hit the ball high or low, fade or draw, hook or slice, spin or release.

How about you post video of your swing and I will politely analyze it for you telling you what I see as potential flaws or strengths?
[/quote]

1) You completely mis-read and/or misunderstood almost everything Russ just opined about your swing.

2) Why are you attacking him? Russ is one of the few people in this thread that is conceding that your technique might actually help the average golfer.

3) You seem like a real jackass.
[/quote]

I just pointed out that he inaccurately interpreted my swing, but I guess I wasn't as gentle as you are in your comments. Thanks for your in depth analysis.

[golfinglarrypiersall]

[quote name='craniac24' timestamp='1410714102' post='10115631']
One of Venetos' lessons. If your "pro" doesn't understand what rolling shutter effect is, and instead tells you that your shaft is flexing early, you might want to find a new pro.

http://www.powerchalk.com/video/102708_5004-7PE8-RFTK-JCI4-CHLK/play
[/quote]

Jim seems to sleep fine at night....

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1410641001' post='10112581']
[quote name='Tanner25' timestamp='1410612557' post='10111139']
[quote name='CLSS' timestamp='1410589368' post='10110735']
Hi all. Newbie here.
Great topic!

Something new in golf almost always gets a reaction. If it had come from up top or already a success, people can't help but follow whether they understand... Good results are compelling. However, from an unknown person it's difficult to be open minded for some reason. Like me, my step dad is a PGA retired, made all his money from playing golf ever since and then teaching golf thereafter... Made well for himself in golf. He's my golf beginnings in the early 90s after 10 years of knowing him. But even with that back ground, surrounded by family and many friends with PGA stats who had great careers and living well from its honest hard work, I was still willing to hear and listen to Jim Venetos. I only wish I knew this technique from the very beginning of my golf.

He mentioned the Fosbury Flop in his comment earlier and that's exactly the point. If no one did it and became successful at it, it won't be here today. Everyone would still be doing it the old way.

Btw, this swing allows us to hit all shapes and not just restricted to the cool tight draws. We can hit it high/low fade it nicely or with power... What I mean is playing from a position makes it more fun. Playing from a position creates a lot of leverage and power and versatility.... But then we all know golf isn't just about power. It calls for a lot like finesse being artful, proven skills that gains a player the confidence... building skills to take to the course or with your regular games and ultimately for some out where you play against other pros and make chex like some of his students.

In my case, I've heard everything from my regular group of guys and just about everywhere I play about how people think I should play. But only to find them slowly adapting the Venetos golf... No harm in trying on your own, but if you do, be fair to your self and get some help or at least learn to experiment it the proper way... Not just go out there and swing the way you think Jim does it and then give that feed back to us. That wouldn't only be unfair to you, but think of who or others. Jim's a great guy and would entertain your golf thoughts towards productivity. But if you are set on conventional, then you are and it's cool.

Thanks, guys.

Best.

CLSS
[/quote]

Welcome, CLSS. I was thinking a similar point. When Stack n Tilt first came out, I am sure it wasn't received well and it was weird looking too. A few years later a few pros adopted it. I still do not see any of these as body friendly swings though.
[/quote]

This is jim Venetos. Look at the "hi all" and similar paragraph structure and the fact that this is his only post...
[/quote]

So, you're calling me a liar? Cute guys, very impressive. I make 20 posts as myself gladly responding to your questions and ridicule but somehow I needed to make a fake post?
I sent the link to one of my students who enjoys forums for him to view 2 days ago, he decided to respond. His name is Noel and he's very active on greenskeeper.org and has made plenty of posts about the success he's had using my swing.

Gentlemen, I appreciate the interaction and I hope you all accomplish your goals in golf.
Stay Still,
Jim

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='golfinglarrypiersall' timestamp='1410714664' post='10115675']
[quote name='craniac24' timestamp='1410714102' post='10115631']
One of Venetos' lessons. If your "pro" doesn't understand what rolling shutter effect is, and instead tells you that your shaft is flexing early, you might want to find a new pro.

[url="http://www.powerchalk.com/video/102708_5004-7PE8-RFTK-JCI4-CHLK/play"]http://www.powerchal...-JCI4-CHLK/play[/url]
[/quote]

Jim seems to sleep fine at night....
[/quote]

Thanks Larry.

I'm aware of rolling shutter effect, it creates camera distortion with fast moving objects.

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='craniac24' timestamp='1410714102' post='10115631']
One of Venetos' lessons. If your "pro" doesn't understand what rolling shutter effect is, and instead tells you that your shaft is flexing early, you might want to find a new pro.

http://www.powerchalk.com/video/102708_5004-7PE8-RFTK-JCI4-CHLK/play
[/quote]

And camera angles ...

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410715744' post='10115719']
[quote name='golfinglarrypiersall' timestamp='1410714664' post='10115675']
[quote name='craniac24' timestamp='1410714102' post='10115631']
One of Venetos' lessons. If your "pro" doesn't understand what rolling shutter effect is, and instead tells you that your shaft is flexing early, you might want to find a new pro.

[url="http://www.powerchalk.com/video/102708_5004-7PE8-RFTK-JCI4-CHLK/play"]http://www.powerchal...-JCI4-CHLK/play[/url]
[/quote]

Jim seems to sleep fine at night....
[/quote]

Thanks Larry.

I'm aware of rolling shutter effect, it creates camera distortion with fast moving objects.
[/quote]
Do you still believe the students shaft was flexing forward in that video?

[bph7]

[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410715395' post='10115701']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1410641001' post='10112581']
[quote name='Tanner25' timestamp='1410612557' post='10111139']
[quote name='CLSS' timestamp='1410589368' post='10110735']
Hi all. Newbie here.
Great topic!

Something new in golf almost always gets a reaction. If it had come from up top or already a success, people can't help but follow whether they understand... Good results are compelling. However, from an unknown person it's difficult to be open minded for some reason. Like me, my step dad is a PGA retired, made all his money from playing golf ever since and then teaching golf thereafter... Made well for himself in golf. He's my golf beginnings in the early 90s after 10 years of knowing him. But even with that back ground, surrounded by family and many friends with PGA stats who had great careers and living well from its honest hard work, I was still willing to hear and listen to Jim Venetos. I only wish I knew this technique from the very beginning of my golf.

He mentioned the Fosbury Flop in his comment earlier and that's exactly the point. If no one did it and became successful at it, it won't be here today. Everyone would still be doing it the old way.

Btw, this swing allows us to hit all shapes and not just restricted to the cool tight draws. We can hit it high/low fade it nicely or with power... What I mean is playing from a position makes it more fun. Playing from a position creates a lot of leverage and power and versatility.... But then we all know golf isn't just about power. It calls for a lot like finesse being artful, proven skills that gains a player the confidence... building skills to take to the course or with your regular games and ultimately for some out where you play against other pros and make chex like some of his students.

In my case, I've heard everything from my regular group of guys and just about everywhere I play about how people think I should play. But only to find them slowly adapting the Venetos golf... No harm in trying on your own, but if you do, be fair to your self and get some help or at least learn to experiment it the proper way... Not just go out there and swing the way you think Jim does it and then give that feed back to us. That wouldn't only be unfair to you, but think of who or others. Jim's a great guy and would entertain your golf thoughts towards productivity. But if you are set on conventional, then you are and it's cool.

Thanks, guys.

Best.

CLSS
[/quote]

Welcome, CLSS. I was thinking a similar point. When Stack n Tilt first came out, I am sure it wasn't received well and it was weird looking too. A few years later a few pros adopted it. I still do not see any of these as body friendly swings though.
[/quote]

This is jim Venetos. Look at the "hi all" and similar paragraph structure and the fact that this is his only post...
[/quote]

So, you're calling me a liar? Cute guys, very impressive. I make 20 posts as myself gladly responding to your questions and ridicule but somehow I needed to make a fake post?
I sent the link to one of my students who enjoys forums for him to view 2 days ago, he decided to respond. His name is Noel and he's very active on greenskeeper.org and has made plenty of posts about the success he's had using my swing.

Gentlemen, I appreciate the interaction and I hope you all accomplish your goals in golf.
Stay Still,
Jim
[/quote]

I never called you a liar, just said I thought you made that post, and I still do. Now i presume we'll get another post from "CLSS" where he introduces himself as "Noel" from greenskeeper.com? I look forward to that.

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1410716652' post='10115779']
[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410715395' post='10115701']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1410641001' post='10112581']
[quote name='Tanner25' timestamp='1410612557' post='10111139']
[quote name='CLSS' timestamp='1410589368' post='10110735']
Hi all. Newbie here.
Great topic!

Something new in golf almost always gets a reaction. If it had come from up top or already a success, people can't help but follow whether they understand... Good results are compelling. However, from an unknown person it's difficult to be open minded for some reason. Like me, my step dad is a PGA retired, made all his money from playing golf ever since and then teaching golf thereafter... Made well for himself in golf. He's my golf beginnings in the early 90s after 10 years of knowing him. But even with that back ground, surrounded by family and many friends with PGA stats who had great careers and living well from its honest hard work, I was still willing to hear and listen to Jim Venetos. I only wish I knew this technique from the very beginning of my golf.

He mentioned the Fosbury Flop in his comment earlier and that's exactly the point. If no one did it and became successful at it, it won't be here today. Everyone would still be doing it the old way.

Btw, this swing allows us to hit all shapes and not just restricted to the cool tight draws. We can hit it high/low fade it nicely or with power... What I mean is playing from a position makes it more fun. Playing from a position creates a lot of leverage and power and versatility.... But then we all know golf isn't just about power. It calls for a lot like finesse being artful, proven skills that gains a player the confidence... building skills to take to the course or with your regular games and ultimately for some out where you play against other pros and make chex like some of his students.

In my case, I've heard everything from my regular group of guys and just about everywhere I play about how people think I should play. But only to find them slowly adapting the Venetos golf... No harm in trying on your own, but if you do, be fair to your self and get some help or at least learn to experiment it the proper way... Not just go out there and swing the way you think Jim does it and then give that feed back to us. That wouldn't only be unfair to you, but think of who or others. Jim's a great guy and would entertain your golf thoughts towards productivity. But if you are set on conventional, then you are and it's cool.

Thanks, guys.

Best.

CLSS
[/quote]

Welcome, CLSS. I was thinking a similar point. When Stack n Tilt first came out, I am sure it wasn't received well and it was weird looking too. A few years later a few pros adopted it. I still do not see any of these as body friendly swings though.
[/quote]

This is jim Venetos. Look at the "hi all" and similar paragraph structure and the fact that this is his only post...
[/quote]

So, you're calling me a liar? Cute guys, very impressive. I make 20 posts as myself gladly responding to your questions and ridicule but somehow I needed to make a fake post?
I sent the link to one of my students who enjoys forums for him to view 2 days ago, he decided to respond. His name is Noel and he's very active on greenskeeper.org and has made plenty of posts about the success he's had using my swing.

Gentlemen, I appreciate the interaction and I hope you all accomplish your goals in golf.
Stay Still,
Jim
[/quote]

I never called you a liar, just said I thought you made that post, and I still do. Now i presume we'll get another post from "CLSS" where he introduces himself as "Noel" from greenskeeper.com? I look forward to that.
[/quote]

I didn't make that post.

[Ghost of Snead]

Jim - your statement from your 1st post ...

[i]Power and the driver - Without a weight shift it may seem that power is decreased but in fact it's the opposite, power is increased.[/i]

Don't you think every long driver would be using your technique if power was increased ? How about professional baseball's home run hitters ? The NHL's top defensemen who blast slapshots at over 100 mph ? I'm sure if you take a look at all of golf's greats on Youtube, you will see a weight transfer. With your swing and if weight transfer is not necessary, you should be able to lift your back foot off the ground and still hit it 300 yards. Some trick shot artists probably can, but most golfers are not looking for gimmicks.

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1410717993' post='10115867']
Jim - your statement from your 1st post ...

[i]Power and the driver - Without a weight shift it may seem that power is decreased but in fact it's the opposite, power is increased.[/i]

Don't you think every long driver would be using your technique if power was increased ? How about professional baseball's home run hitters ? The NHL's top defensemen who blast slapshots at over 100 mph ? I'm sure if you take a look at all of golf's greats on Youtube, you will see a weight transfer. With your swing and if weight transfer is not necessary, you should be able to lift your back foot off the ground and still hit it 300 yards. Some trick shot artists probably can, but most golfers are not looking for gimmicks.
[/quote]

Let's side aside the "everyone would be using it" thought because obviously my technique is contrarian to popular beliefs which makes it a difficult leap for "everyone" to embrace and considering I've turned down offers to mass market this technique, convincing "everyone" isn't my goal, so let's discuss weight shift. But regarding the conversion, I will say that the 25 sponsored pros at the l.d. qualifier were very intrigued with my swing and astonished at the power it produced.
I don't believe a weight shift increases true power because of a couple factors; 1. the weight shift requires timing which means that if mis-timed the distances produced will be erratic. Considering the precise nature of the game, if you hit one shot with perfect timing distance(x) and another shot mis-timed goes distance <(x), is that a truly powerful technique? 2. A weight shift creates an oval shaped swing which has 2 negatives; 1. there is a flat spot through impact which makes it difficult to descend down through the ball which makes you vulnerable in any lie that isn't perfect, 2. the shaft won't flex optimally because of the lack of centripetal force(think of iron byron the robot, no weight shift = centripetal force = shaft flex = power). I truly believe a weight shift is difficult to repeat while also not producing the same dynamic forces that still weight produces.

My question to you is, Why would a weight shift increase power in the swing?

You'll notice in all the pics(I'm not seeing an option to attach the pics so I will figure that out and post the pics I speak of), the players plant weight on one foot to support the strike. Now the difference is that in all these pics the sport requires movement to follow the moving ball or the moving opponent, but in golf the ball doesn't move so we have the luxury of establishing the weight plant in the set up to support the strike. Ali and Bruce Lee didn't shift their weight to punch, they planted on a foot then struck. A hockey player doesn't shift his weight on a slap shot, that's why they're on one skate. Federer and Djokovich don't shift their weight to hit their one handed ground strokes, they plant one foot then swing. Do you shift your weight when using an ax or a hammer, throwing a frisbee, shooting pool, throwing a dart? Remember, golf requires both power and precision, so if you could find a swing that gave you ample power and precision by not moving your weight wouldn't you think it has some merit? And yes, I can lift my back foot off the ground and hit the ball far but obviously that requires more athleticism than is necessary.

[Jimvenetos]

You'll notice in all the pics, the players plant weight on one foot to support the strike. Now the difference is that in all these pics the sport requires movement to follow the moving ball or the moving opponent, but in golf the ball doesn't move so we have the luxury of establishing the weight plant in the set up to support the strike. Ali and Bruce Lee didn't shift their weight to punch, they planted on a foot then struck. A hockey player doesn't shift his weight on a slap shot, that's why they're on one skate. Federer and Djokovich don't shift their weight to hit their one handed ground strokes, they plant one foot then swing. Do you shift your weight when using an ax or a hammer, throwing a frisbee, shooting pool, throwing a dart? Remember, golf requires both power and precision, so if you could find a swing that gave you ample power and precision by not moving your weight wouldn't you think it has some merit? And yes, I can lift my back foot off the ground and hit the ball far but obviously that requires more athleticism than is necessary.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410710763' post='10115425']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1410562275' post='10108889']
Let's take a look at this swing
Setup
1. right hand looks considerably. under
2.unless there is parallax issue the feet look somewhat closed,with the shoulders and hips very closed
3.Both feet toed out .Can not figure the purpose of doing so with the right foot since there is no hip rotation in the swing
4.Left hip outside left heel at setup with weight obviously on his left foot/leg
5.Both legs pretty straight at setup
Going back there is a surprising amount of shoulder turn ,indicating above average flexibility and an above average amount of wrist set.His shoulder turn is enough to almost get the shaft parrallel despite NO hip rotation
During the swing there is NO Discernible hip rotation that i can see .There is some lateral movement at the hips going down resulting in the outside of his left hip well outside his left heel and weight shifting towards the target
He maintains his leverage very well going down and obviously possess above average athletic ability and hand-eye coordination

To attack other instructors as snake oil salesmen is a strong and uncalled for pejorative.,although I do agree that most pros are not good instructors


Conclusion
His setup is somewhat similar to what a golfer should use if he has to hit a ball under a tree limb and have it hook left
Can it improve the average golfer .Maybe
[/quote]

I'm not attacking other instructors, but if there concepts worked, don't you think the average golfer would be better and the pros would all swing similarly? Also, your analysis of my swing is inaccurate. I clearly have my left leg bent more than my right. I clearly pivot my hips and shoulders in the set up which contradicts your thought that I'm using flexibility to create my swing. In fact, I'm one of the least flexible athletes you will come across. And, this set up allows any golfer to hit the ball high or low, fade or draw, hook or slice, spin or release.

How about you post video of your swing and I will politely analyze it for you telling you what I see as potential flaws or strengths?
[/quote]
Yes you are correct that your left leg is more bent than your right .I will be glad to edit my post post to reflect that
I CLEARLY stated that your hips and shoulders were closed RELATIVE to your stance at setup.By definition that involves some rotation of of your shoulders and hips at setup.
What i did omit was the lack of rotation by the head going back.To make a complete shoulder turn golfers have to either pre -rotate their heads ALA Jack Nicklaus or rotate their head going back The lack of head rotation is another inhibiting factor to making a full shoulder turn

Obviously i do not know what your flexibility measurements are ,but i do know mine.And i can not get back nearly as far as you do when i try to imitate your swing ,even when adding in some left knee bend.Your wrist flexibility is another area to look at to determine flexibility.for golfers.Although i can not accurately measure your wrist flexibility on Kinovea software for various reasons ,it looks greater than mine in a front facing video .

I think that you should read my other 2 or 3 posts re: your swing.I am one of the few that conceded that it might help the average golfer and that it looked relatively back friendly because of a low amount of lateroflexion going down.I stated this partly because most instructors are just not effective teachers and most golfers do not improve.This is quantum leap from calling them snake oil salesman.The term snake oil salesman is one which has distinct connotations of fraud,quackery and charlatanism,one of intentional dishonesty..Obviously some golf pros can be described with that term ,but the vast majority can not.You owe the pros on this board and everywhere an apology for using this term.

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1410722585' post='10116087']
[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410710763' post='10115425']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1410562275' post='10108889']
Let's take a look at this swing
Setup
1. right hand looks considerably. under
2.unless there is parallax issue the feet look somewhat closed,with the shoulders and hips very closed
3.Both feet toed out .Can not figure the purpose of doing so with the right foot since there is no hip rotation in the swing
4.Left hip outside left heel at setup with weight obviously on his left foot/leg
5.Both legs pretty straight at setup
Going back there is a surprising amount of shoulder turn ,indicating above average flexibility and an above average amount of wrist set.His shoulder turn is enough to almost get the shaft parrallel despite NO hip rotation
During the swing there is NO Discernible hip rotation that i can see .There is some lateral movement at the hips going down resulting in the outside of his left hip well outside his left heel and weight shifting towards the target
He maintains his leverage very well going down and obviously possess above average athletic ability and hand-eye coordination

To attack other instructors as snake oil salesmen is a strong and uncalled for pejorative.,although I do agree that most pros are not good instructors


Conclusion
His setup is somewhat similar to what a golfer should use if he has to hit a ball under a tree limb and have it hook left
Can it improve the average golfer .Maybe
[/quote]

I'm not attacking other instructors, but if there concepts worked, don't you think the average golfer would be better and the pros would all swing similarly? Also, your analysis of my swing is inaccurate. I clearly have my left leg bent more than my right. I clearly pivot my hips and shoulders in the set up which contradicts your thought that I'm using flexibility to create my swing. In fact, I'm one of the least flexible athletes you will come across. And, this set up allows any golfer to hit the ball high or low, fade or draw, hook or slice, spin or release.

How about you post video of your swing and I will politely analyze it for you telling you what I see as potential flaws or strengths?
[/quote]
Yes you are correct that your left leg is more bent than your right .I will be glad to edit my post post to reflect that
I CLEARLY stated that your hips and shoulders were closed RELATIVE to your stance at setup.By definition that involves some rotation of of your shoulders and hips at setup.
What i did omit was the lack of rotation by the head going back.To make a complete shoulder turn golfers have to either pre -rotate their heads ALA Jack Nicklaus or rotate their head going back The lack of head rotation is another inhibiting factor to making a full shoulder turn

Obviously i do not know what your flexibility measurements are ,but i do know mine.And i can not get back nearly as far as you do when i try to imitate your swing ,even when adding in some left knee bend.Your wrist flexibility is another area to look at to determine flexibility.for golfers.Although i can not accurately measure your wrist flexibility on Kinovea software for various reasons ,it looks greater than mine in a front facing video .

I think that you should read my other 2 or 3 posts re: your swing.I am one of the few that conceded that it might help the average golfer and that it looked relatively back friendly because of a low amount of lateroflexion going down.I stated this partly because most instructors are just not effective teachers and most golfers do not improve.This is quantum leap from calling them snake oil salesman.The term snake oil salesman is one which has distinct connotations of fraud,quackery and charlatanism,one of intentional dishonesty..Obviously some golfer pros can be described with that term ,but the vast majority can not.You owe the pros on this board and everywhere an apology for using this term.
[/quote]

It's interesting to me that with the all the words I've written in this post and all the responses I've gotten that you are hung up on the term snake oil salesman. The golf instruction industry is loaded with gimmicks, tips and devices that are sold to the masses of golfers and endorsed by many top teaching pros guaranteeing improvement and yet the average golfer still struggles to consistently hit solid shots. Seems to be to be some quackery going on.

But, to you and anyone I've offended, I sincerely apologize and mean no disrespect.

Jim

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410722363' post='10116075']
You'll notice in all the pics, the players plant weight on one foot to support the strike. Now the difference is that in all these pics the sport requires movement to follow the moving ball or the moving opponent, but in golf the ball doesn't move so we have the luxury of establishing the weight plant in the set up to support the strike. Ali and Bruce Lee didn't shift their weight to punch, they planted on a foot then struck. A hockey player doesn't shift his weight on a slap shot, that's why they're on one skate. Federer and Djokovich don't shift their weight to hit their one handed ground strokes, they plant one foot then swing. Do you shift your weight when using an ax or a hammer, throwing a frisbee, shooting pool, throwing a dart? Remember, golf requires both power and precision, so if you could find a swing that gave you ample power and precision by not moving your weight wouldn't you think it has some merit? And yes, I can lift my back foot off the ground and hit the ball far but obviously that requires more athleticism than is necessary.
[/quote]

Sorry man, just because they finish on the left doesn't mean there was no weight transfer. Hockey player for many years here and I can tell you that is a definite weight transfer from the rear leg to the front leg before the slapshot finishes. Take a look at some baseball swing video of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Barry Bonds ... why is their weight on the back leg before striding into the ball ? And I can guarantee that there a transfer of weight with a boxer or a tennis player. Hogan, Snead, Jones, Woods, etc all finished on their left leg ... does that mean there was no weight transfer ? Any sport/movement that requires a substantial amount of force will require a transfer of weight to get the maximum result. Pool, darts are finesse games that don't require force.

The physics and equations are way over my head ... but there are some sharp guys on here that can explain it that way.

And you claim thousands of students over the 20 years you have been teaching this swing ? Have they ALL improved ? How many have abandoned your swing in favor of a conventional method ?

[bph7]

Jim, your posts are long, but avoiding the question. To be clear, are you saying that by keeping the weight all on the left side, this is the MOST powerful way to swing? Or, are you saying that a weight shift CAN produce more power, but that it leads to mishits etc, and that therefore it might result in more distance for some to keep the weight left? These are VERY different things. You said the first one originally, but then backtracked to the second one. It's VERY hard to believe that keeping all the weight left truly is the MOST powerful if there are no long drivers who do it that way. If it really were more powerful, why wouldn't we see people whose livelihood depends on power doing it?

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1410723197' post='10116119']
[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410722363' post='10116075']
You'll notice in all the pics, the players plant weight on one foot to support the strike. Now the difference is that in all these pics the sport requires movement to follow the moving ball or the moving opponent, but in golf the ball doesn't move so we have the luxury of establishing the weight plant in the set up to support the strike. Ali and Bruce Lee didn't shift their weight to punch, they planted on a foot then struck. A hockey player doesn't shift his weight on a slap shot, that's why they're on one skate. Federer and Djokovich don't shift their weight to hit their one handed ground strokes, they plant one foot then swing. Do you shift your weight when using an ax or a hammer, throwing a frisbee, shooting pool, throwing a dart? Remember, golf requires both power and precision, so if you could find a swing that gave you ample power and precision by not moving your weight wouldn't you think it has some merit? And yes, I can lift my back foot off the ground and hit the ball far but obviously that requires more athleticism than is necessary.
[/quote]

Sorry man, just because they finish on the left doesn't mean there was no weight transfer. Hockey player for many years here and I can tell you that is a definite weight transfer from the rear leg to the front leg before the slapshot finishes. Take a look at some baseball swing video of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Barry Bonds ... why is their weight on the back leg before striding into the ball ? And I can guarantee that there a transfer of weight with a boxer or a tennis player. Hogan, Snead, Jones, Woods, etc all finished on their left leg ... does that mean there was no weight transfer ? Any sport/movement that requires a substantial amount of force will require a transfer of weight to get the maximum result. Pool, darts are finesse games that don't require force.

The physics and equations are way over my head ... but there are some sharp guys on here that can explain it that way.

And you claim thousands of students over the 20 years you have been teaching this swing ? Have they ALL improved ? How many have abandoned your swing in favor of a conventional method ?
[/quote]

Really, the physics are over your head but you know that I'm wrong? A few years ago I was invited to the TPI by founders Greg Rose and Dave Phillips because my students had produced such high quality ball flight characteristics at their facility that they wanted to speak with me about it. We discussed the swing for 4 hours, I explained to them that the results that they were seeing was a product of a shallow, circular and descending swing path, they(like you) were shocked at how much power could be produced without a weight shift, I showed them that was the result of the shallow path and they concluded that I was an ideal pro to teach the draw. The numbers don't lie, High ball speed, low spin, mid launch angle = power and accuracy.

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410724550' post='10116227']
[quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1410723197' post='10116119']
[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410722363' post='10116075']
You'll notice in all the pics, the players plant weight on one foot to support the strike. Now the difference is that in all these pics the sport requires movement to follow the moving ball or the moving opponent, but in golf the ball doesn't move so we have the luxury of establishing the weight plant in the set up to support the strike. Ali and Bruce Lee didn't shift their weight to punch, they planted on a foot then struck. A hockey player doesn't shift his weight on a slap shot, that's why they're on one skate. Federer and Djokovich don't shift their weight to hit their one handed ground strokes, they plant one foot then swing. Do you shift your weight when using an ax or a hammer, throwing a frisbee, shooting pool, throwing a dart? Remember, golf requires both power and precision, so if you could find a swing that gave you ample power and precision by not moving your weight wouldn't you think it has some merit? And yes, I can lift my back foot off the ground and hit the ball far but obviously that requires more athleticism than is necessary.
[/quote]

Sorry man, just because they finish on the left doesn't mean there was no weight transfer. Hockey player for many years here and I can tell you that is a definite weight transfer from the rear leg to the front leg before the slapshot finishes. Take a look at some baseball swing video of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Barry Bonds ... why is their weight on the back leg before striding into the ball ? And I can guarantee that there a transfer of weight with a boxer or a tennis player. Hogan, Snead, Jones, Woods, etc all finished on their left leg ... does that mean there was no weight transfer ? Any sport/movement that requires a substantial amount of force will require a transfer of weight to get the maximum result. Pool, darts are finesse games that don't require force.

The physics and equations are way over my head ... but there are some sharp guys on here that can explain it that way.

And you claim thousands of students over the 20 years you have been teaching this swing ? Have they ALL improved ? How many have abandoned your swing in favor of a conventional method ?
[/quote]

Really, the physics are over your head but you know that I'm wrong? A few years ago I was invited to the TPI by founders Greg Rose and Dave Phillips because my students had produced such high quality ball flight characteristics at their facility that they wanted to speak with me about it. We discussed the swing for 4 hours, I explained to them that the results that they were seeing was a product of a shallow, circular and descending swing path, they(like you) were shocked at how much power could be produced without a weight shift, I showed them that was the result of the shallow path and they concluded that I was an ideal pro to teach the draw. The numbers don't lie, High ball speed, low spin, mid launch angle = power and accuracy.
[/quote]

Not everyone has to be Isaac Newton to understand there is weight transfer in all of the sports we discussed. You just have to be an athlete. No one said power could not be produced with no weight shift; it's just less than the power produced when there is a weight shift. Same question as bph - why are no long drivers using your swing if more power is generated with no weight shift ? Name a few PGA tour players that play their long game with no weight transfer. So high ball speed, low spin, mid launch angle can't be achieved by a golfer with a traditional swing ?

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410722363' post='10116075']
You'll notice in all the pics, the players plant weight on one foot to support the strike. Now the difference is that in all these pics the sport requires movement to follow the moving ball or the moving opponent, but in golf the ball doesn't move so we have the luxury of establishing the weight plant in the set up to support the strike. Ali and Bruce Lee didn't shift their weight to punch, they planted on a foot then struck. A hockey player doesn't shift his weight on a slap shot, that's why they're on one skate. Federer and Djokovich don't shift their weight to hit their one handed ground strokes, they plant one foot then swing. Do you shift your weight when using an ax or a hammer, throwing a frisbee, shooting pool, throwing a dart? Remember, golf requires both power and precision, so if you could find a swing that gave you ample power and precision by not moving your weight wouldn't you think it has some merit? And yes, I can lift my back foot off the ground and hit the ball far but obviously that requires more athleticism than is necessary.
[/quote]

What do you think those guys did before those pictures.....? They shifted to the other side, so that they could shift their weight back. If you don't go back, you can't shift forward. Even centered pivots have a substantial amount of pressure shifting back in the backswing. You can't compare throwing a dart to the golf swing... That requires no power. Try swinging an ax without shifting your weight and get back to me how that goes. To rotate properly to enable sufficient power in either golf or chopping wood, you're going to need to shift your weight. Just because there's no lateral movement doesn't mean shift isn't occuring.

Oh and if you're going to in passing say you hit 5 balls 390 in the grid in a re-max event when you had a 118 mph SS with a normal driver and say you did it in converses, no one is going to take you seriously.

Lol about throwing out Jason Day or Tiger as somehow reasons against a modern swing. I don't care if you have the most perfect motion the world has ever seen .If you hit 500 balls a day for 20 years, you're going to get back pain too. Just like how I squat with form that people fawn over, yet sometimes stuff hurts. Parts wear down. Left shoulder is equipped to handle the golf swing but the spine isn't? Here's a good comparison. Your spine:your shoulder as ft knox:library. The shoulder is the most mobile joint of the body. If you're going to say something can handle stress, it's absolutely not the shoulder.

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1410723235' post='10116121']
Jim, your posts are long, but avoiding the question. To be clear, are you saying that by keeping the weight all on the left side, this is the MOST powerful way to swing? Or, are you saying that a weight shift CAN produce more power, but that it leads to mishits etc, and that therefore it might result in more distance for some to keep the weight left? These are VERY different things. You said the first one originally, but then backtracked to the second one. It's VERY hard to believe that keeping all the weight left truly is the MOST powerful if there are no long drivers who do it that way. If it really were more powerful, why wouldn't we see people whose livelihood depends on power doing it?
[/quote]

I'm not intending to avoid answering the question. If you shift your weight you may hit the ball farther but you may also hit the ball shorter. Since we are playing a precise game that requires consistent distances through the bag, do you think that shifting weight to produce inconsistent yardages is powerful? In the l.d. qualifier I competed in, no other golfer hit 5 out of 6 balls in the grid, my yardages were from 386 - 393 and the 5 pros that beat me had drives that ranged from 420 - 360 yards. My yardages had a range of 7 yards. If you've seen a long driver, wouldn't you say that they probably over swing and consequently aren't very good golfers?
I don't think it's useful and consequently not powerful to produce inconsistent yardages in this game. My students and I anchor our weight to our front foot in the set up, we maintain that weight throughout the strike and we produce substantial power(my stock 8 iron goes 168, my stock 1 iron goes 263 and my average drive is 315, all at sea level).
It's clear that many of you disagree with the concept of not shifting weight in the swing and this is why you don't see the power in the swing. If you have the swing figured out, don't waste your time telling me how wrong I am, go out and make some birdies.

[Jimvenetos]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1410725125' post='10116253']
[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410722363' post='10116075']
You'll notice in all the pics, the players plant weight on one foot to support the strike. Now the difference is that in all these pics the sport requires movement to follow the moving ball or the moving opponent, but in golf the ball doesn't move so we have the luxury of establishing the weight plant in the set up to support the strike. Ali and Bruce Lee didn't shift their weight to punch, they planted on a foot then struck. A hockey player doesn't shift his weight on a slap shot, that's why they're on one skate. Federer and Djokovich don't shift their weight to hit their one handed ground strokes, they plant one foot then swing. Do you shift your weight when using an ax or a hammer, throwing a frisbee, shooting pool, throwing a dart? Remember, golf requires both power and precision, so if you could find a swing that gave you ample power and precision by not moving your weight wouldn't you think it has some merit? And yes, I can lift my back foot off the ground and hit the ball far but obviously that requires more athleticism than is necessary.
[/quote]

What do you think those guys did before those pictures.....? They shifted to the other side, so that they could shift their weight back. If you don't go back, you can't shift forward. Even centered pivots have a substantial amount of pressure shifting back in the backswing. You can't compare throwing a dart to the golf swing... That requires no power. Try swinging an ax without shifting your weight and get back to me how that goes. To rotate properly to enable sufficient power in either golf or chopping wood, you're going to need to shift your weight. Just because there's no lateral movement doesn't mean shift isn't occuring.

Oh and if you're going to in passing say you hit 5 balls 390 in the grid in a re-max event when you had a 118 mph SS with a normal driver and say you did it in converses, no one is going to take you seriously.

Lol about throwing out Jason Day or Tiger as somehow reasons against a modern swing. I don't care if you have the most perfect motion the world has ever seen .If you hit 500 balls a day for 20 years, you're going to get back pain too. Just like how I squat with form that people fawn over, yet sometimes stuff hurts. Parts wear down. Left shoulder is equipped to handle the golf swing but the spine isn't? Here's a good comparison. Your spine:your shoulder as ft knox:library. The shoulder is the most mobile joint of the body. If you're going to say something can handle stress, it's absolutely not the shoulder.
[/quote]

Well you can tell that to the USC bio-kinesioligist that found my swing to bio-mechanically sound and not putting stress on the 3/4 rotating socket that is in your shoulder. My 118 ss is with my 45 inch driver, I have never checked it with my long driver. And, yes, I did it in chuck's. Don't care if you believe me, not here to sell you anything, just reporting the facts champ.

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410725300' post='10116259']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1410723235' post='10116121']
Jim, your posts are long, but avoiding the question. To be clear, are you saying that by keeping the weight all on the left side, this is the MOST powerful way to swing? Or, are you saying that a weight shift CAN produce more power, but that it leads to mishits etc, and that therefore it might result in more distance for some to keep the weight left? These are VERY different things. You said the first one originally, but then backtracked to the second one. It's VERY hard to believe that keeping all the weight left truly is the MOST powerful if there are no long drivers who do it that way. If it really were more powerful, why wouldn't we see people whose livelihood depends on power doing it?
[/quote]

I'm not intending to avoid answering the question. If you shift your weight you may hit the ball farther but you may also hit the ball shorter. Since we are playing a precise game that requires consistent distances through the bag, do you think that shifting weight to produce inconsistent yardages is powerful? In the l.d. qualifier I competed in, no other golfer hit 5 out of 6 balls in the grid, my yardages were from 386 - 393 and the 5 pros that beat me had drives that ranged from 420 - 360 yards. My yardages had a range of 7 yards. If you've seen a long driver, wouldn't you say that they probably over swing and consequently aren't very good golfers?
I don't think it's useful and consequently not powerful to produce inconsistent yardages in this game. My students and I anchor our weight to our front foot in the set up, we maintain that weight throughout the strike and we produce substantial power(my stock 8 iron goes 168, my stock 1 iron goes 263 and my average drive is 315, all at sea level).
It's clear that many of you disagree with the concept of not shifting weight in the swing and this is why you don't see the power in the swing. If you have the swing figured out, don't waste your time telling me how wrong I am, go out and make some birdies.
[/quote]

Now he's saying you may hit it farther if you shift your weight ... not what you were saying earlier. So your LDs of 390 yards with a range of 7 yards ... either produce some verified video of you at the qualifier WITH YOUR SWING or lose the braggadocio. Do you think guys on the PGA tour hit it the same every single time ?

[bph7]

[quote name='Jimvenetos' timestamp='1410725300' post='10116259']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1410723235' post='10116121']
Jim, your posts are long, but avoiding the question. To be clear, are you saying that by keeping the weight all on the left side, this is the MOST powerful way to swing? Or, are you saying that a weight shift CAN produce more power, but that it leads to mishits etc, and that therefore it might result in more distance for some to keep the weight left? These are VERY different things. You said the first one originally, but then backtracked to the second one. It's VERY hard to believe that keeping all the weight left truly is the MOST powerful if there are no long drivers who do it that way. If it really were more powerful, why wouldn't we see people whose livelihood depends on power doing it?
[/quote]

I'm not intending to avoid answering the question. If you shift your weight you may hit the ball farther but you may also hit the ball shorter. Since we are playing a precise game that requires consistent distances through the bag, do you think that shifting weight to produce inconsistent yardages is powerful? In the l.d. qualifier I competed in, no other golfer hit 5 out of 6 balls in the grid, my yardages were from 386 - 393 and the 5 pros that beat me had drives that ranged from 420 - 360 yards. My yardages had a range of 7 yards. If you've seen a long driver, wouldn't you say that they probably over swing and consequently aren't very good golfers?
I don't think it's useful and consequently not powerful to produce inconsistent yardages in this game. My students and I anchor our weight to our front foot in the set up, we maintain that weight throughout the strike and we produce substantial power(my stock 8 iron goes 168, my stock 1 iron goes 263 and my average drive is 315, all at sea level).
It's clear that many of you disagree with the concept of not shifting weight in the swing and this is why you don't see the power in the swing. If you have the swing figured out, don't waste your time telling me how wrong I am, go out and make some birdies.
[/quote]

Can you post a video of your driver swing?

Also, I am not saying you are wrong necessarily, just that I still can't tell whether you saying saying this method is the most powerful, or just a powerful way to swing that will be most consistent for many. You said the first one originally, and when that was questioned you started backtracking. People on this board are very skeptical when instructors make very broad pronouncements but then try to change their views when challenged.