All Things Michigan Golf....the Mulligan (MOD EDIT: NO POLITICS, NO COVID-19, NO ECONOMICS)

[knickerbocker]

[quote name='hofmeister929' timestamp='1440456121' post='12201468']
Anyone got some suggestions for courses near lansing that arent very expensive?
[/quote]

Good values around Lansing can be found on Golfnow especially for The Emerald in St. Johns, Forest Akers West, The Medalist in Marshall, Royal Scott, and Hawk Hollow.

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='knickerbocker' timestamp='1440468038' post='12202738']
[quote name='hofmeister929' timestamp='1440456121' post='12201468']
Anyone got some suggestions for courses near lansing that arent very expensive?
[/quote]

Good values around Lansing can be found on Golfnow especially for The Emerald in St. Johns, Forest Akers West, The Medalist in Marshall, Royal Scott, and Hawk Hollow.
[/quote]I had my best round of last year at the Emerald (76). It's a great course(biased opinion).

[Openwater22]

[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1440441902' post='12200002']
[quote name='flintof1' timestamp='1440440334' post='12199852']
I don't get the whole aim point concept. I mean I understand it but it's way out there for me. I recently played with a guy who used it. Hes about 6'4" and was hilarious to watch but he had it down. I don't think his green reading ability is as uncanny as my own but if it works, why not. Our pace of play was ridiculously slow however. I have a ball marker that's a level, so I use that whenever I'm not playing for money/in competition. Although, taking it out on practice rounds is a leg up to get in on course knowledge. It's really useful for uncovering break lines in unfamiliar greens.
[/quote]
It really shouldn't take any longer than getting the line visually. Depending on the length of the putt, you check one or two spots between the ball and the hole, and it should really be quick to gauge what you think the slope is. Once you get that, you just do the thing with your fingers and pick your target, and for me, I use the line or size log on the ball to align it to that line, and go.
[/quote]
It shouldn't take longer, but it does. Not cool to do the aimpoint feet thing near the hole when other players are putting first, so the aim point player waits until the coast is clear. A visual line can be taken well away from the hole while others are putting. Also, when 2 players are on the same line, or close to the same line, and the aim point player is closer, the aim point player has to wait until the other player putts to do the feet thing. Again, a visual line can be taken without disrupting another player. Not disputing aim point as a valid method, but it does take longer.

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1440471114' post='12203068']
[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1440441902' post='12200002']
[quote name='flintof1' timestamp='1440440334' post='12199852']
I don't get the whole aim point concept. I mean I understand it but it's way out there for me. I recently played with a guy who used it. Hes about 6'4" and was hilarious to watch but he had it down. I don't think his green reading ability is as uncanny as my own but if it works, why not. Our pace of play was ridiculously slow however. I have a ball marker that's a level, so I use that whenever I'm not playing for money/in competition. Although, taking it out on practice rounds is a leg up to get in on course knowledge. It's really useful for uncovering break lines in unfamiliar greens.
[/quote]
It really shouldn't take any longer than getting the line visually. Depending on the length of the putt, you check one or two spots between the ball and the hole, and it should really be quick to gauge what you think the slope is. Once you get that, you just do the thing with your fingers and pick your target, and for me, I use the line or size log on the ball to align it to that line, and go.
[/quote]
It shouldn't take longer, but it does. Not cool to do the aimpoint feet thing near the hole when other players are putting first, so the aim point player waits until the coast is clear. A visual line can be taken well away from the hole while others are putting. Also, when 2 players are on the same line, or close to the same line, and the aim point player is closer, the aim point player has to wait until the other player putts to do the feet thing. Again, a visual line can be taken without disrupting another player. Not disputing aim point as a valid method, but it does take longer.
[/quote]
I'm new to it, but I think there are ways to avoid slowing things down. You obviously have to be conscientious about other players' lines, so you need to make sure that you stand in a place that isn't on their line (or yours, as that's against the rules). If you're closer on the same or similar line, I'd just watch them putt and get a read that way.
In most cases, you don't need to go too near the hole to get a read, so I don't see that as much of an issue. If it's a short putt, the process really doesn't take much time.

Bottom line, I think it's like anything else when it comes to pace of play. If you're a fast player, you'll learn to do it fast. If you're an anchor, you'll be slow.

[Mi-Golfer]

[quote name='swizbeatz' timestamp='1440434067' post='12199190']
Aim point seems interesting but I've never really had trouble reading putts so haven't done a ton of research. Personally I walk the line to get the feel already and then find the fall line at the hole, ie where would the ball fall in from the flattest area. Point straight up the fall line and that's where your ball needs to be a few feet out. Try not to miss anything low side and watch the putts fall.
[/quote]


One read that completely eludes me is putting from a lower tier up a hill and determining which way the ball will break to the hole. Especially if its on a diagonal up and across the fall line then I'm completely befuddled. Anyone have a suggestion on how to read these putts?

[mattsam]

Does anyone check their putting tempo? I'm working with a new putting aid that wants a 2:1 tempo! I have a really small putting green in my home office and I can tell it helps. I started at 1.3:1.

[golfortennis]

Does 1Ton still work at Carl's? If you're reading this please PM me.

[swizbeatz]

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1440512137' post='12204980']
Does 1Ton still work at Carl's? If you're reading this please PM me.
[/quote]

Should shoot him a PM so he gets an email, not sure how much he reads the board.

[Sweet]

We MIGHT actually have good weather this year boys!!!
http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Hourly.aspx

[swizbeatz]

[quote name='Sweet' timestamp='1440512416' post='12205034']
We MIGHT actually have good weather this year boys!!!
http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Hourly.aspx
[/quote]

Supposed to have a pretty mild winter too. My uncle works for the gov in global climate research and prediction and wrote an article a week or so ago discussing upcoming winter in the U.S. One fact that jumped out as crazy is Cali is 2+ years behind in rainfall with no end in sight.

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='Sweet' timestamp='1440512416' post='12205034']
We MIGHT actually have good weather this year boys!!!
[url="http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Hourly.aspx"]http://www.intellica...cal/Hourly.aspx[/url]
[/quote]
What are you trying to do to us, Captain Jinx?!

It won't be the Mid-Am unless one day is either blowing 30 MPH or raining. Last year's second round was probably the worst weather I've ever played in. How it could rain that hard and not be accompanied by lightning is a mystery to me.

[golfortennis]

[quote name='swizbeatz' timestamp='1440512399' post='12205030']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1440512137' post='12204980']
Does 1Ton still work at Carl's? If you're reading this please PM me.
[/quote]

Should shoot him a PM so he gets an email, not sure how much he reads the board.
[/quote]

Good call. Shows last active in May....thought I had seen a recent post from him.

[Sweet]

[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1440512715' post='12205084']
[quote name='Sweet' timestamp='1440512416' post='12205034']
We MIGHT actually have good weather this year boys!!!
[url="http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Hourly.aspx"]http://www.intellica...cal/Hourly.aspx[/url]
[/quote]
What are you trying to do to us, Captain Jinx?!

It won't be the Mid-Am unless one day is either blowing 30 MPH or raining. Last year's second round was probably the worst weather I've ever played in. How it could rain that hard and not be accompanied by lightning is a mystery to me.
[/quote]
hey man, it's been raining here for 6 out of the last 10 days...i'm pruning up and looking forward to nextt week!

[chickenpotpie]

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1440517144' post='12205600']
[quote name='swizbeatz' timestamp='1440512399' post='12205030']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1440512137' post='12204980']
Does 1Ton still work at Carl's? If you're reading this please PM me.
[/quote]

Should shoot him a PM so he gets an email, not sure how much he reads the board.
[/quote]

Good call. Shows last active in May....thought I had seen a recent post from him.
[/quote]

He's still listed on their website, so I'd say yes?

[golfortennis]

[quote name='chickenpotpie' timestamp='1440522950' post='12206164']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1440517144' post='12205600']
[quote name='swizbeatz' timestamp='1440512399' post='12205030']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1440512137' post='12204980']
Does 1Ton still work at Carl's? If you're reading this please PM me.
[/quote]

Should shoot him a PM so he gets an email, not sure how much he reads the board.
[/quote]

Good call. Shows last active in May....thought I had seen a recent post from him.
[/quote]

He's still listed on their website, so I'd say yes?
[/quote]

Problem is I don't know his real name. Doubt "1Ton" would be listed.... :- 0

[knickerbocker]

[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1440512715' post='12205084']
[quote name='Sweet' timestamp='1440512416' post='12205034']
We MIGHT actually have good weather this year boys!!!
[url="http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Hourly.aspx"]http://www.intellica...cal/Hourly.aspx[/url]
[/quote]
What are you trying to do to us, Captain Jinx?!

It won't be the Mid-Am unless one day is either blowing 30 MPH or raining. Last year's second round was probably the worst weather I've ever played in. How it could rain that hard and not be accompanied by lightning is a mystery to me.
[/quote]

It is looking like I won't get up there till Wednesday night, so I will not have a practice round on the Moor. I am sort of worried about that considering what I have heard about the Moor. But I am still trying to work out getting up there for a practice round.

[Openwater22]

Some pics from Ballyneal. Great big thanks to a regular ATMG'er for setting this up.
This is a BIG, expansive course. Lots of room off the tee, one of the fairways is 135 wide.
Precision required on approach shots, crazy, buried VW's Doak greens. Firm and fast fescue
fairways like KC. Multiple lines of play off the tee and approach shots.

1st pic is all the bags lined up in the morning awaiting players and caddies. 2nd pic is the lodging.
Rest of the pics are random shots of the course.


[attachment=2924446:image.jpg]
[attachment=2924448:image.jpg]
[attachment=2924450:image.jpg]
[attachment=2924452:image.jpg]
[attachment=2924454:image.jpg]
[attachment=2924456:image.jpg]
[attachment=2924458:image.jpg]

[O.D.underpar]

[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1440545089' post='12208368']
Some pics from Ballyneal. Great big thanks to a regular ATMG'er for setting this up.
This is a BIG, expansive course. Lots of room off the tee, one of the fairways is 135 wide.
Precision required on approach shots, crazy, buried VW's Doak greens. Firm and fast fescue
fairways like KC. Multiple lines of play off the tee and approach shots.

1st pic is all the bags lined up in the morning awaiting players and caddies. 2nd pic is the lodging.
Rest of the pics are random shots of the course
[/quote]

Looks great. How did you play?

[flintof1]

[quote name='Mi-Golfer' timestamp='1440502891' post='12204180'][quote name='swizbeatz' timestamp='1440434067' post='12199190']
Aim point seems interesting but I've never really had trouble reading putts so haven't done a ton of research. Personally I walk the line to get the feel already and then find the fall line at the hole, ie where would the ball fall in from the flattest area. Point straight up the fall line and that's where your ball needs to be a few feet out. Try not to miss anything low side and watch the putts fall.
[/quote]


One read that completely eludes me is putting from a lower tier up a hill and determining which way the ball will break to the hole. Especially if its on a diagonal up and across the fall line then I'm completely befuddled. Anyone have a suggestion on how to read these putts?[/quote]

One skill I have learned to help me read greens is to think about why greens are sloped in certain spots/contain certain design elements (i.e. visualize the way water would runoff if you dumped a bucket on the spot you're trying to get a read. Most of the time, contours are purposely placed into greens by the course architect to maximize water drainage. So notwithstanding speed, also take into account the general rules when it comes to reading a green (non exhaustive):

1.) downhill putts break more than uphill putts;
2.) the ball will most always break down towards water;
3.) the ball always breaks away from a bunker;
4.) determine if you're putting with the grain of the green or back into it (e.g. Downhill-down grain will roll a little faster and therefore that putt will break more);
5.) Always miss on the high side of the hole and it's better to overplay the break because a putt that misses below the hole never has a chance to drop;

I break most putts up into thirds, and it's especially my method when reading the putt you described, I begin by walking on the low side of the line and assess the high point of the break. This will be where I will get a feel and a general idea of my initial line. From there, I work my way back to the ball and start reading each third of the putt starting with the last third (being closest to the hole) treating that section as it were its own putt. I'll visualize the point on the hole where I see the putt going in and then work my way back and read each third of the putt and then combine the lines to create my overall read. I'll then pick my high point and aim at that and see it go where I envisioned and pull the trigger. Hope this helps.

[chickenpotpie]

Flint, I've always thought that downhill putts break less than uphill....I think Pelz studied that in one of his books.

[hofmeister929]

[quote name='flintof1' timestamp='1440557325' post='12209626']
[quote name='Mi-Golfer' timestamp='1440502891' post='12204180'][quote name='swizbeatz' timestamp='1440434067' post='12199190']
Aim point seems interesting but I've never really had trouble reading putts so haven't done a ton of research. Personally I walk the line to get the feel already and then find the fall line at the hole, ie where would the ball fall in from the flattest area. Point straight up the fall line and that's where your ball needs to be a few feet out. Try not to miss anything low side and watch the putts fall.
[/quote]


One read that completely eludes me is putting from a lower tier up a hill and determining which way the ball will break to the hole. Especially if its on a diagonal up and across the fall line then I'm completely befuddled. Anyone have a suggestion on how to read these putts?[/quote]

One skill I have learned to help me read greens is to think about why greens are sloped in certain spots/contain certain design elements (i.e. visualize the way water would runoff if you dumped a bucket on the spot you're trying to get a read. Most of the time, contours are purposely placed into greens by the course architect to maximize water drainage. So notwithstanding speed, also take into account the general rules when it comes to reading a green (non exhaustive):

1.) downhill putts break more than uphill putts;
2.) the ball will most always break down towards water;
3.) the ball always breaks away from a bunker;
4.) determine if you're putting with the grain of the green or back into it (e.g. Downhill-down grain will roll a little faster and therefore that putt will break more);
5.) Always miss on the high side of the hole and it's better to overplay the break because a putt that misses below the hole never has a chance to drop;

I break most putts up into thirds, and it's especially my method when reading the putt you described, I begin by walking on the low side of the line and assess the high point of the break. This will be where I will get a feel and a general idea of my initial line. From there, I work my way back to the ball and start reading each third of the putt starting with the last third (being closest to the hole) treating that section as it were its own putt. I'll visualize the point on the hole where I see the putt going in and then work my way back and read each third of the putt and then combine the lines to create my overall read. I'll then pick my high point and aim at that and see it go where I envisioned and pull the trigger. Hope this helps.
[/quote]

This is pretty helpful and I intend to use these ideas the next time out

[flintof1]

[quote name='chickenpotpie' timestamp='1440589415' post='12210682']Flint, I've always thought that downhill putts break less than uphill....I think Pelz studied that in one of his books.[/quote]

You my friend have been misinformed. It's false that uphill putts break more than downhill putts. I would highly recommending that you reverse that methodology immediately.

Let's consult our good friend, Physics, to help us better understand this concept. During a putt your ball will accelerate away on contact with your putter, then appear to be rolling at a constant speed, before the friction of the grass finally slows it down. So according to Newton's second law of motion, inertia and force applied are directly related to the rotational velocity i.e. The harder you hit a putt, the inertia and rotational velocity increases which limits the potential for kinetic energy; for uphill putts have a higher coefficient of friction. These two forces pretty much cancel each other out and ultimately only decelerate for a brief moment (I'll explain more about this below). In sum, and to put it in layman's terms, a putt has 3 stages or variants of motion (I.e. points in time during a putt at which the rotational velocity will change)

1.) acceleration

2) constant (Newtons second law)

3) deceleration

On any given green the degree of slope, plus the length of the grain, etc., will determine the extent of the break as your ball slows near the hole. Simply, the longer the deceleration, the more your ball will break. Applying that concept, uphill putts are easier and break less than downhill putts because you have to stroke the ball more firmly than downhill putts. In other words there is a longer acceleration as your ball starts off faster and a shorter deceleration as it slows down faster.

Conversely, downhill putts you have to stroke the ball more gently. The acceleration is shorter as you try to die your putt into the hole rather than stroke it forcefully into the back of the cup. It may seem counter-intuitive, but a downhill putt takes longer to reach the hole than an uphill putt of the same length. This is because the ball is traveling at a slower speed. This means that there is a longer deceleration phase and more break.

Lastly, it only makes sense then that fast greens break more than slow greens (for the exact degree of slope.). Because on slower greens you have to stroke the ball with more force. The rule of thumb for determining break, therefore, depends on your ball SPEED.

It can be summed up as:

Uphill equals less break.

Downhill equals more break.

And that concludes our science lesson for today kids.

[3_Jack_Par]

With Aimpoint, you adjust for speed of greens by adjusting how far away you hold your hand, and that all all goes along with Fo1's very thorough explanation.

[Openwater22]

[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1440472079' post='12203190']
[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1440471114' post='12203068']
[quote name='3 Jack Par' timestamp='1440441902' post='12200002']
[quote name='flintof1' timestamp='1440440334' post='12199852']
I don't get the whole aim point concept. I mean I understand it but it's way out there for me. I recently played with a guy who used it. Hes about 6'4" and was hilarious to watch but he had it down. I don't think his green reading ability is as uncanny as my own but if it works, why not. Our pace of play was ridiculously slow however. I have a ball marker that's a level, so I use that whenever I'm not playing for money/in competition. Although, taking it out on practice rounds is a leg up to get in on course knowledge. It's really useful for uncovering break lines in unfamiliar greens.
[/quote]
It really shouldn't take any longer than getting the line visually. Depending on the length of the putt, you check one or two spots between the ball and the hole, and it should really be quick to gauge what you think the slope is. Once you get that, you just do the thing with your fingers and pick your target, and for me, I use the line or size log on the ball to align it to that line, and go.
[/quote]
It shouldn't take longer, but it does. Not cool to do the aimpoint feet thing near the hole when other players are putting first, so the aim point player waits until the coast is clear. A visual line can be taken well away from the hole while others are putting. Also, when 2 players are on the same line, or close to the same line, and the aim point player is closer, the aim point player has to wait until the other player putts to do the feet thing. Again, a visual line can be taken without disrupting another player. Not disputing aim point as a valid method, but it does take longer.
[/quote]
I'm new to it, but I think there are ways to avoid slowing things down. You obviously have to be conscientious about other players' lines, so you need to make sure that you stand in a place that isn't on their line (or yours, as that's against the rules). If you're closer on the same or similar line, I'd just watch them putt and get a read that way.
In most cases, you don't need to go too near the hole to get a read, so I don't see that as much of an issue. If it's a short putt, the process really doesn't take much time.

Bottom line, I think it's like anything else when it comes to pace of play. If you're a fast player, you'll learn to do it fast. If you're an anchor, you'll be slow.
[/quote]
Play with a lot of aim point players in Fla., all are courteous. Most are fast players, nearly all are slower on the green. Just going by what I have observed. When I caddied in the Symetra event at Tully, our group got put on the clock both days, and it was't because they were slow on the box or fairway. 2 of the three used aim point. Just going by what i have observed.

[FSCMatt]

Man, all of this Aimpoint talk is making my head spin. I've always been good at reading greens (caddying has helped that) so I've never thought how much can go into it.

I'm sure Aimpoint works if you commit to it, but to me it seems like there are way to many steps to go through.

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='FSCMatt' timestamp='1440599064' post='12211460']
Man, all of this Aimpoint talk is making my head spin. I've always been good at reading greens (caddying has helped that) so I've never thought how much can go into it.

I'm sure Aimpoint works if you commit to it, but to me it seems like there are way to many steps to go through.
[/quote]
There's two steps:
1. Determine a value for the slope. (a maximum of two spots along the line of the putt)
2. Hold up that number of fingers to pick your aiming spot

It really doesn't seem like it should take a lot of time, and no different than looking at a putt from different angles to read it. I've only played two rounds doing it, and it didn't take me an additional time compared to doing it visually. And if I get better at feeling the slope with more practice, it should only speed up.

[mattsam]

Does it take a lot of time because you are standing there when its your turn to play? I always read my putts as the others are putting (if I'm not out). When I'm out I'm usually lagging anyway.
A few of you have played with me, and I'm no Crenshaw !

[mattsam]

[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1440545089' post='12208368']

[attachment=2924452:image.jpg]

[/quote]
Pictures just don't show the scope of this tee shot!

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='mattsam' timestamp='1440603333' post='12211916']
Does it take a lot of time because you are standing there when its your turn to play? I always read my putts as the others are putting (if I'm not out). When I'm out I'm usually lagging anyway.
A few of you have played with me, and I'm no Crenshaw !
[/quote]
[quote name='mattsam' timestamp='1440603333' post='12211916']
Does it take a lot of time because you are standing there when its your turn to play? I always read my putts as the others are putting (if I'm not out). When I'm out I'm usually lagging anyway.
A few of you have played with me, and I'm no Crenshaw !
[/quote]
I think that's where it could take more time. But in a lot of cases, you can get your read as others are reading their putts. And when you can't, the process of gauging the slope only takes a few seconds.

I played with itw419 on Sunday, and I'd be curious to hear if he thought I was any slower on the greens than usual? He's on vacation right now, so probably not keeping an eye on the board, but I'd be interested in his take.

[Openwater22]

R,
Not sayin aim point will make you slower, or everybody slower. Just sayin' experience indicates aim point is a process and has the potential to take more time for some. Most, if not all will still visually assess their putts. One of the readings shold take place close to the hole, sometimes this cannot be done until others have played. A visual read can happen while others play.

Not rippin on aim point either. I believe it works. We have all used our feet as well as eyes to read putts before aim point came along. Hope it works crazy good for you. Ur only a few more made putts from being a plus hdcp