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Why swinging over the top is good and how is shallows the swing.


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So many of us are under the impression that swinging "over the top" is the worst thing that you can do. Also we get caught up in trying to shallow the swing

by dropping the club behind us or trying to turn the left arm clockwise while in transition ( Hogan,) .

 

i dont know if you have ever tried turning your arms clockwise in transition but its extremely difficult motion and requires a tremendous amount of timing.

 

We are looking at the transition of the great players and misinterpreting what is going on . What actually is happening is that they are swinging " OVER THE TOP " of the initial plane . Which in turn

is squaring the club face. I like to call it swinging over the top from the inside. There is no conscious twisting or chain pulling or side arm throwing. Its simply getting to a backswing position where the club is in sync with the body and on a neutral plane to slightly underneath . From there its simply rotating what feels like over the top. The pieces of the puzzle fall in place the club drops behind the player slighty which shallows out the swing path and the shoulders have more then enough room to rotate freely .

 

A perfect example is Robert Rock.

 

 

 

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[quote name='Jonnybagadonuts' timestamp='1423772701' post='10940407']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1423772185' post='10940335']
Typically a really good fade pattern.
[/quote]

I was hitting some pretty powerful push draws with ease, almost automatic . I think it all stems from your original tip to me of the karate chop move.
[/quote]

Awesome mate. The karate chop move (iteach taught it to me) is great for people who are overly connected. Helps get lead arm off the chest coming down. For you, your backswing might have gotten a bit too deep, so the shift out helped get you back on plane.

Overall you are right, most of the WRX crowd hates seeing any downswing that's steeper than the backswing.

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[quote name='Jonnybagadonuts' timestamp='1423773954' post='10940575']
2 more great examples

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSbVtnWsxrc"]https://www.youtube....h?v=JSbVtnWsxrc[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqZSR2eCsWs"]https://www.youtube....h?v=eqZSR2eCsWs[/url]
[/quote]

Manassero is a good example of what I'm talking about. He gets his arms a bit deep in the backswing (pause when left arm is parallel to ground and then again at same spot in downswing) and thus has to kick out on the downswing.

With Lee, I'd argue that was pretty much inline. Hands maybe kicked out an inch at most. Camera angle wasn't the best.

Lots of Callaway Stuff

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[quote name='HawkeyeDan' timestamp='1423774691' post='10940683']
So, if I am following correctly, you are defining "over the top" as simply coming in steeper than where you started, correct? So would Kuchar be another example of this, or is he simply going underplane in the backswing then back on plane at impact?
[/quote]

Kuchar is more "standard" over the top, IMO.

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[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1423774072' post='10940593']
How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path
[/quote]

How do you know his path was leftward? You can still come over the top of your BS plane and hit it from the inside, which is what I think he's advocating

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[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1423774072' post='10940593']
How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path
[/quote]

Takaway is "inside" and then the club path moves "over" that path in transition... but still attacks the ball from the inside.

Google: OTT from the inside

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[quote name='Cloran' timestamp='1423775744' post='10940837']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1423774072' post='10940593']
How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path
[/quote]

Takaway is "inside" and then the club path moves "over" that path in transition... but still attacks the ball from the inside.

Google: OTT from the inside
[/quote]

Exactly, and with many of the really good ones who swing this way the shaft actually shallows in transition...even though the overall path is OTT

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IMO, Snead is the poster boy for this move - hands over the top.

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[quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1423777049' post='10940999']
IMO, Snead is the poster boy for this move - hands over the top.
[/quote]

Agree

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Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
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Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
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There something about that Robert Rock iron swing DTL that's very pleasing on the eye. couldn't tell you technically what it is mind...

Neil

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[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1423775701' post='10940831']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1423774072' post='10940593']
How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path
[/quote]

How do you know his path was leftward? You can still come over the top of your BS plane and hit it from the inside, which is what I think he's advocating
[/quote]

Precisely , I am surprised so many people are familiar with what I am talking about .


It's a great way to move the club and feels very natural once you get the motion down .

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The pro at my club once told me "if you take the club back on plane, then you can swing over the top". It took me a while to fully understand this.

When I started I was a jerk it back inside and swing OTT. I eventually learned to take the club back on a better plane (a little outside) and soon began to struggle with coming too far from the inside, trying the drop the club in the slot and shallow out.

Now I take it back on the same plane but feel as though I'm swinging OTT (not drastically). Ball striking is much more consistent.


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[quote name='PJ72' timestamp='1423779068' post='10941217']
I think the term OTT in this instance refers to the [i]right shoulder [/i]coming 'over the top'. Obviously, OTT is a term usually referring to the [i]hands[/i] coming over the top.
[/quote]

Hands start working out from the top in most good swings.

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Calling Monte!! Come in, Monte!! :help:


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[quote name='Jonnybagadonuts' timestamp='1423770689' post='10940103']
So many of us are under the impression that swinging "over the top" is the worst thing that you can do. Also we get caught up in trying to shallow the swing
by dropping the club behind us or trying to turn the left arm clockwise while in transition ( Hogan,) .

i dont know if you have ever tried turning your arms clockwise in transition but its extremely difficult motion and requires a tremendous amount of timing.

We are looking at the transition of the great players and misinterpreting what is going on . What actually is happening is that they are swinging " OVER THE TOP " of the initial plane . Which in turn
is squaring the club face. I like to call it swinging over the top from the inside. There is no conscious twisting or chain pulling or side arm throwing. Its simply getting to a backswing position where the club is in sync with the body and on a neutral plane to slightly underneath . From there its simply rotating what feels like over the top. The pieces of the puzzle fall in place the club drops behind the player slighty which shallows out the swing path and the shoulders have more then enough room to rotate freely .

A perfect example is Robert Rock.



[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopnOW_-UCw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=FopnOW_-UCw[/url]
[/quote]

Johnny, perhaps you could explain a little bit more about what you are seeing. . . nothing about Rock's swing looks OTT to me.

You do indicate "what feels" like OTT, and I could never argue anyone's feels, however, I do not see OTT with Rock.

I am familiar with McLean's planes and, if memory serves me, Floyd is a good example of someone who goes back under plane and re-routes up and onto a higher plane, if you will. I do not know what he 'feels', but pretty sure that is not what most would consider an OTT move.

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My swing has always been OTT and my miss is a hook. I can hook the ball off the planet with the driver at the moment... what I wouldn't give for a slicers OTT move right now. Lol.

And I don't shallow the shaft in transition, just can't happen... will never happen, not in my dna.

What do I do? I setup with my shaft on the turned shoulder plane, take it back inside, lift my hands back up the the TSP, and bring my hands and the club back down the TSP to impact. It looks "cleaner" on video because I have higher hands at setup and impact is on the same plane, but I always swing down the TSP so if I set up with low hands the OTT move is exaggerated.

It be what it be.

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[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1423779367' post='10941257']
[quote name='PJ72' timestamp='1423779068' post='10941217']
I think the term OTT in this instance refers to the [i]right shoulder [/i]coming 'over the top'. Obviously, OTT is a term usually referring to the [i]hands[/i] coming over the top.
[/quote]

Hands start working out from the top in most good swings.
[/quote]

Yes, they will work 'out', or towards the target line but still on the correct plane, not over the top of it.

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[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1423777216' post='10941021']
I'm not saying a leftward path is bad, just I've never seen someone using OTT and push draw in same sentence.
[/quote]

If you will read the other posts, lv_2_hack explains very clearly in post #8 what 'OTT' means in this context and it does not preclude a rightward path.

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[quote name='PJ72' timestamp='1423780509' post='10941393']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1423779367' post='10941257']
[quote name='PJ72' timestamp='1423779068' post='10941217']
I think the term OTT in this instance refers to the [i]right shoulder [/i]coming 'over the top'. Obviously, OTT is a term usually referring to the [i]hands[/i] coming over the top.
[/quote]

Hands start working out from the top in most good swings.
[/quote]

Yes, they will work 'out', or towards the target line but still on the correct plane, not over the top of it.
[/quote]

Agree 100%. The 'hands' (forearms and wrists more specifically) are the problem, not necessarily the shoulder. For example, the hands can drop, as with Rock, and right shoulder moves 'out' and there is no OTT pathology.

Mikah gets a lot of heat on this forum. However, one of his stock comments is very insightful and applicable here. Namely, keeping the right hand on an arc inside the left during the transition and early downswing. Another way of looking at is the right elbow leads the hand. This relationship is lost if one pronates their right forearm during the transition/early downswing. . . OTT city with the hands, and the shoulder typically comes along for the ride in the prototypic out-to-in swing. Nothing about Rock's swing is out-to-in.

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