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Why swinging over the top is good and how is shallows the swing.


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I'm not sure anyone should be proactively trying to encourage an OTT move, unless you're mega inside to out.

Just have the correct spine tilt at address, maintain that spine tilt and all your goat humping, flipping and lag loss problems will disappear. Then you can forget about justifying the over the top nonsense.

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[quote name='tweedygent' timestamp='1423858128' post='10947297']
I'm not sure anyone should be proactively trying to encourage an OTT move, unless you're mega inside to out.

Just have the correct spine tilt at address, maintain that spine tilt and all your goat humping, flipping and lag loss problems will disappear. Then you can forget about justifying the over the top nonsense.
[/quote]

I wish it was just that easy.

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[quote name='tweedygent' timestamp='1423858128' post='10947297']
I'm not sure anyone should be proactively trying to encourage an OTT move, unless you're mega inside to out.

Just have the correct spine tilt at address, maintain that spine tilt and all your goat humping, flipping and lag loss problems will disappear. Then you can forget about justifying the over the top nonsense.
[/quote]

Not quite. A great setup guarantees nothing. The arms in virtually all good swings come diwn above the backswing plane. It's a functions of shoulders being less closed half way down than they were half way back

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[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1423858593' post='10947339']
[quote name='tweedygent' timestamp='1423858128' post='10947297']
I'm not sure anyone should be proactively trying to encourage an OTT move, unless you're mega inside to out.

Just have the correct spine tilt at address, maintain that spine tilt and all your goat humping, flipping and lag loss problems will disappear. Then you can forget about justifying the over the top nonsense.
[/quote]

Not quite. A great setup guarantees nothing. The arms in virtually all good swings come diwn above the backswing plane. It's a functions of shoulders being less closed half way down than they were half way back
[/quote]

Exactly Dan. That's why swinging left or the OTT move, leads to my best ball striking. My shoulders are more open and my path is more left. Instead of 10° In to out I may only be 2° into out. This is the difference between me looking like a scratch golfer and a 20 handicapper.

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[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1423858593' post='10947339'][quote name='tweedygent' timestamp='1423858128' post='10947297']
I'm not sure anyone should be proactively trying to encourage an OTT move, unless you're mega inside to out.

Just have the correct spine tilt at address, maintain that spine tilt and all your goat humping, flipping and lag loss problems will disappear. Then you can forget about justifying the over the top nonsense.
[/quote]

Not quite. A great setup guarantees nothing. The arms in virtually all good swings come diwn above the backswing plane. It's a functions of shoulders being less closed half way down than they were half way back[/quote]


Fundamentals fellas. Folks don't pay enough attention to them. An over the top move is a symptom of a fault earlier in the swing. It's simply your body having to compensate for faults already made.

A proper set up will go a long way for out to in player. If your trying to correct the path on the downswing/transition your barking up the wrong tree.

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[quote name='thekru' timestamp='1423853104' post='10946765']
[quote name='NoHipMove' timestamp='1423851215' post='10946559']
Another useless thread focusing on the semantics of teaching a golf swing, without actually helping anyone.

Looks like you are helping many of the high handicappers to continue on with their outside-in swings, good job!
[/quote]

^^That was informative.
[/quote]

Actually it was stupid.
He equates OTT with an outside-in swingpath when this thread has nothing to do with that.

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[quote name='tweedygent' timestamp='1423859195' post='10947411']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1423858593' post='10947339'][quote name='tweedygent' timestamp='1423858128' post='10947297']
I'm not sure anyone should be proactively trying to encourage an OTT move, unless you're mega inside to out.

Just have the correct spine tilt at address, maintain that spine tilt and all your goat humping, flipping and lag loss problems will disappear. Then you can forget about justifying the over the top nonsense.
[/quote]

Not quite. A great setup guarantees nothing. The arms in virtually all good swings come diwn above the backswing plane. It's a functions of shoulders being less closed half way down than they were half way back[/quote]


Fundamentals fellas. Folks don't pay enough attention to them. An over the top move is a symptom of a fault earlier in the swing. It's simply your body having to compensate for faults already made.

A proper set up will go a long way for out to in player. If your trying to correct the path on the downswing/transition your barking up the wrong tree.
[/quote]

Again your ignorant to what's being discussed. The OTT move here is talking about what Hogan, Snead, Ogrady, Venturi and many other greats did.

We are talking about wiping way across it. Path approaches from the inside and the shaft flattens coming down. The opposite of what high handicappers do

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Exactly my point. Trying to copy Hogan, Snead etc by encouraging over the top move could be pretty damaging to an average amateur who habitually comes over the top due to earlier swing faults. I think that advice could be pretty toxic - particularly if fundamentals aren't sound. Just asking for trouble.

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[quote name='tweedygent' timestamp='1423860026' post='10947523']
Exactly my point. Trying to copy Hogan, Snead etc by encouraging over the top move could be pretty damaging to an average amateur who habitually comes over the top due to earlier swing faults. I think that advice could be pretty toxic - particularly if fundamentals aren't sound. Just asking for trouble.
[/quote]

Again the arms working out is an effect. Not actively trying swing OTT. With a proper pivot it's simply what it looks like

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How is the first move in transition different from the "OTT" tour players versus a tour player is not "OTT" ? Does the "OTT" player consciously try and open the hips sooner ?

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[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1423854841' post='10947003']
I second the request for the high KARATE chop move !
[/quote]

It's a drill that forces left arm off the chest in a downswing. Also helps people who's right shoulder drops too much in transition.

Much easier to show in person but I'll attempt to describe.

Get in 6 iron posture, making a backswing without a club. Now the feel is that the back of the left hand is going to break a board that's about waist high directly over the ball with the left arm only. No intent of using shoulders or hips to get L arm there.

Another thought is to imagine playing little league T-ball. Set up to hit the T-ball in a golf posture. Make a backswing and idea is to slice through the ball with back of left hand. Arm is going to blast off the chest and force the arms to stay in front of you. Helps sync arms with pivot.

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[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1423862967' post='10947815']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1423854841' post='10947003']
I second the request for the high KARATE chop move !
[/quote]

It's a drill that forces left arm off the chest in a downswing. Also helps people who's right shoulder drops too much in transition.

Much easier to show in person but I'll attempt to describe.

Get in 6 iron posture, making a backswing without a club. Now the feel is that the back of the left hand is going to break a board that's about waist high directly over the ball.

Another thought is to imagine playing little league T-ball. Set up to hit the T-ball in a golf posture. Make a backswing and idea is to slice through the ball with back of left hand. Arm is going to blast off the chest and force the arms to stay in front of you. Helps sync arms with pivot.
[/quote]

I saw you mention this in a post some time ago and played around with it. Resulted in some fantastic ball striking for a while, but alas like most feels/keys it was fleeting. Enjoyed while it lasted though.

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[quote name='tweedygent' timestamp='1423860026' post='10947523']
Exactly my point. Trying to copy Hogan, Snead etc by encouraging over the top move could be pretty damaging to an average amateur who habitually comes over the top due to earlier swing faults. I think that advice could be pretty toxic - particularly if fundamentals aren't sound. Just asking for trouble.
[/quote]

Dude, come on this is GOLFWRX. We ain't the average amateur who habitually comes over the top. Many of us are decent players that error on the side of being underplane. I haven't had an OTT hacker mover since I was 13. That was over 30 yrs ago.

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[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1423863729' post='10947917']
Ironically in my epic swinging left thread lol I was describing the opposite feel in the takeaway. Hands working less in and deep and left arm coming off the chest almost immediately. From there with the right elbow free I can fire down hard vs. a feeling of rerouting the hands outward.
[/quote]

Goes to prove "Different strokes......."

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It's amazing how many people did not read my original post . Or simply ignored what I posted and read what they wanted to read .

Saying coming over the top is a bad compensation is wrong . Yes it's wrong if the shaft is getting steep and your path is 20* out to in . However that's not what I am conveying , The greatest players to ever live do this movement .......... yet chain pulling and dropping the club behind your back seems to be welcomed with open arms because that's what it looks like on camera .


You have an accredited teacher with countless successful students in iteach saying it's a great motion and thats not convincing enough.


Then there are the hacks who say this thread will help no one ...... maybe if you applied yourself to learning you wouldn't be so grumpy towards good swing advice .

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[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1423862967' post='10947815']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1423854841' post='10947003']
I second the request for the high KARATE chop move !
[/quote]

It's a drill that forces left arm off the chest in a downswing. Also helps people who's right shoulder drops too much in transition.

Much easier to show in person but I'll attempt to describe.

Get in 6 iron posture, making a backswing without a club. Now the feel is that the back of the left hand is going to break a board that's about waist high directly over the ball with the left arm only. No intent of using shoulders or hips to get L arm there.

Another thought is to imagine playing little league T-ball. Set up to hit the T-ball in a golf posture. Make a backswing and idea is to slice through the ball with back of left hand. Arm is going to blast off the chest and force the arms to stay in front of you. Helps sync arms with pivot.
[/quote]

This seems like a drill he gave me.

Stick the butt end of the club against the wall, while keeping my right shoulder back and high. Helps delay opening too early.

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[quote name='Jonnybagadonuts' timestamp='1423866414' post='10948229']
It's amazing how many people did not read my original post . Or simply ignored what I posted and read what they wanted to read .

Saying coming over the top is a bad compensation is wrong . Yes it's wrong if the shaft is getting steep and your path is 20* out to in . However that's not what I am conveying , The greatest players to ever live do this movement .......... yet chain pulling and dropping the club behind your back seems to be welcomed with open arms because that's what it looks like on camera .


You have an accredited teacher with countless successful students in iteach saying it's a great motion and thats not convincing enough.


Then there are the hacks who say this thread will help no one ...... maybe if you applied yourself to learning you wouldn't be so grumpy towards good swing advice .
[/quote]
Johhny it's helpful if you quote whoever you're directing that at otherwise statements like that derail and run the loco right off the track.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSjszPydAg0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ywJvhjvPC4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ2zf4X6PIc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy_xx-cXKyA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htgZt9wLQHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y49TIJe_f7w

tweedy, yes purely saying ott is desirable is a bad thing, but literally no one is saying that. If someone takes the time to learn the difference between these swings and the ott cast they'll go a long way to their practical knowledge of the golf swing. This is a place for learning after all.

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[color=#800080]It is how i learned to play. I haves a video last year proving to some PGA teacher that i can come *over the top* with a very inside backswing ands have a path from the insides. The only time i get steep coming down is when i gets steep on the backswing going up.[/color]

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The issues come from the blanket word "OTT". If we define and are more specific, I doubt there would be any arguments. Your hands and/or club can move too much out, or too much down and in. The saying "OTT" is too general. This only causes confusion unless there's an explanation and understanding.

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Seems to me the core reason for the path to the ball is for you to be able to have as much rotational speed from the torso/shoulders as you can apply. If your path is not enough from the inside, that's a dead pull with whatever sidespin the face/path creates. How the downswing path relates to bs path isn't the key. The only thing is if your bs is too inside early, the momentum of that path tends to bring the club at too steep an angle to apply much rotation from the body/shoulders.

For most of us middling ams, we struggle to get it shallow enough. I believe it's MUCH easier and more reliable for me to be shallow enough to rotate/turn thru impact freely if I am not beneath the plane early in the bs.

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[quote name='parallax' timestamp='1423782834' post='10941653']
Can someone define "over the top"?

I thought it was the club head path in relation to the ball.
[/quote]

Parallax, below is an informative video describing the OTT move with regard to the hands ‘dropping’ or ‘outracing’ the elbow during the transition down to the ball.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVn1fdi9pc"]https://www.youtube....h?v=xSVn1fdi9pc[/url]

There are many videos addressing the OTT move based on this premise, including one (or more) by Monte describing the elbow moving to the belly button. Implicit, but perhaps not adequately emphasized is the fact that the elbow does not simply need to move toward the belly button, but THE ELBOW NEEDS TO LEAD THE HANDS. I say this because one can deliver the elbow to the belly button but fail to keep the elbow leading the hands - OTT and no beuno.

With regard to Dan stating he and the better ball strikers he works with all come over the top, he is referring to his right shoulder plane, however, he and better ball strikers do not simultaneously let their hands outrace the elbow during the process.

As stated in an earlier post, I have found the right forearm is crucial allowing the right elbow to lead the hands down from the transition. If right forearm pronates at transition/early downswing, this tends to drive the hand forward and elbow backwards (away from the body) – it also lends itself to casting, which shares a symbiotic relationship with OTT pathology. Another way of thinking of it is that the right hand must stay on an inside arc to the left hand. In an OTT move, this relationship is lost.

So, it you suffer OTT move, Monte’s focus on the right elbow getting forward is certainly a good one, BUT you must simultaneously find a way to keep the elbow leading the hands – the right hand on an arc inside the left. For the latter, consider right forearm action – namely, avoid early pronation.

Good luck!

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[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1423907046' post='10951015']
[color=#800080]It is how i learned to play. I haves a video last year proving to some PGA teacher that i can come *over the top* with a very inside backswing ands have a path from the insides. The only time i get steep coming down is when i gets steep on the backswing going up.[/color]
[/quote]

So how do you get steep on the downswing if you get steep on the backswing ? Most decent players shallow it from a steep backswing ala nick price , nick Faldo etc

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[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1423942809' post='10953041']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1423907046' post='10951015']
[color=#800080]It is how i learned to play. I haves a video last year proving to some PGA teacher that i can come *over the top* with a very inside backswing ands have a path from the insides. The only time i get steep coming down is when i gets steep on the backswing going up.[/color]
[/quote]

So how do you get steep on the downswing if you get steep on the backswing ? Most decent players shallow it from a steep backswing ala nick price , nick Faldo etc
[/quote]

Its not always the case that you will shallow from steep even if you are a decent player, its all the tendencies of the player. I think you have to be taught to shallow from steep. Some players need to keep the shaft more on plane to not come down steep

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[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1423943733' post='10953123']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1423942809' post='10953041']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1423907046' post='10951015']
[color=#800080]It is how i learned to play. I haves a video last year proving to some PGA teacher that i can come *over the top* with a very inside backswing ands have a path from the insides. The only time i get steep coming down is when i gets steep on the backswing going up.[/color]
[/quote]

So how do you get steep on the downswing if you get steep on the backswing ? Most decent players shallow it from a steep backswing ala nick price , nick Faldo etc
[/quote]

Its not always the case that you will shallow from steep even if you are a decent player, its all the tendencies of the player. I think you have to be taught to shallow from steep. Some players need to keep the shaft more on plane to not come down steep
[/quote]

I THINK what Eight is wondering - and me too - is how you go from being steep --> transition OTT --> and come out shallow??

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[quote name='thekru' timestamp='1423868863' post='10948481']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1423862967' post='10947815']
[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1423854841' post='10947003']
I second the request for the high KARATE chop move !
[/quote]

It's a drill that forces left arm off the chest in a downswing. Also helps people who's right shoulder drops too much in transition.

Much easier to show in person but I'll attempt to describe.

Get in 6 iron posture, making a backswing without a club. Now the feel is that the back of the left hand is going to break a board that's about waist high directly over the ball with the left arm only. No intent of using shoulders or hips to get L arm there.

Another thought is to imagine playing little league T-ball. Set up to hit the T-ball in a golf posture. Make a backswing and idea is to slice through the ball with back of left hand. Arm is going to blast off the chest and force the arms to stay in front of you. Helps sync arms with pivot.
[/quote]

This seems like a drill he gave me.

Stick the butt end of the club against the wall, while keeping my right shoulder back and high. Helps delay opening too early.
[/quote]

I use that karate chop feel when I have to hit a fade


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[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1423944258' post='10953155']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1423943733' post='10953123']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1423942809' post='10953041']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1423907046' post='10951015']
[color=#800080]It is how i learned to play. I haves a video last year proving to some PGA teacher that i can come *over the top* with a very inside backswing ands have a path from the insides. The only time i get steep coming down is when i gets steep on the backswing going up.[/color]
[/quote]

So how do you get steep on the downswing if you get steep on the backswing ? Most decent players shallow it from a steep backswing ala nick price , nick Faldo etc
[/quote]

Its not always the case that you will shallow from steep even if you are a decent player, its all the tendencies of the player. I think you have to be taught to shallow from steep. Some players need to keep the shaft more on plane to not come down steep
[/quote]

I THINK what Eight is wondering - and me too - is how you go from being steep --> transition OTT --> and come out shallow??
[/quote]

where did you come up with that?

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