UK Classic Club Thread - John Letters, Ben Sayers, Slazenger, Dunlop, George Nicoll, Swilken, Petron

[raggal62]

8 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 Even back in the early Sixties, that no insert and swept-soleplate look would have been "retro", right? 

Classic classic golf?

Yes if those were manufactured new from the early '60s I would think they would have had to have been considered a throwback. They look straight out of the '40s to me.

[Jiggered]

3 hours ago, raggal62 said:

Yes if those were manufactured new from the early '60s I would think they would have had to have been considered a throwback. They look straight out of the '40s to me.

 

Golf manufacturers in the UK took a long time to recover after the war effort and many pre-war designs continued into the fifties at least. Golf clubs weren't a priority when it came to rebuilding the country.

 

They might have been re-shafted but I don't think so, by this time D&W Auchterlonie weren't a big maker and would have struggled more than many to introduce new club designs in the post-war austerity years.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

So when did inserts first appear? I thought the fancy inserts (I've forgotten the specific term for them) were popular in the late hickory era. 

I was surprised to see no face insert in post-war clubs as I thought by then they were the norm.

[Hickory4ever]

2 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

So when did inserts first appear? I thought the fancy inserts (I've forgotten the specific term for them) were popular in the late hickory era. 

I was surprised to see no face insert in post-war clubs as I thought by then they were the norm.

“Fancy face woods” were common in the late hickory era, late twenties to early thirties. I can’t recall ever seeing a steel shafted including pyratone without an insert.

[Jiggered]

7 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

So when did inserts first appear? I thought the fancy inserts (I've forgotten the specific term for them) were popular in the late hickory era. 

I was surprised to see no face insert in post-war clubs as I thought by then they were the norm.

 

4 hours ago, Hickory4ever said:

“Fancy face woods” were common in the late hickory era, late twenties to early thirties. I can’t recall ever seeing a steel shafted including pyratone without an insert.

 

In the UK plain woods with no insert carried on for a long time, many of the early steel shafted clubs didn't have an insert and some models continued long past WWII as mentioned.

 

Below are coated shaft Forgan, and Auchterlonie examples and in the middle are chrome shaft Norrie Thomson.

.

The advert is from March 1956 and while the Autograph irons might be a new design (although they could just be a re-stamping of an old model), the woods are probably just a revamped pre-war design.

 

 

 

[Langlands]

37 minutes ago, Jiggered said:

 

 

In the UK plain woods with no insert carried on for a long time, many of the early steel shafted clubs didn't have an insert and some models continued long past WWII as mentioned.

 

Below are coated shaft Forgan, and Auchterlonie examples and in the middle are chrome shaft Norrie Thomson.

.

The advert is from March 1956 and while the Autograph irons might be a new design (although they could just be a re-stamping of an old model), the woods are probably just a revamped pre-war design.

 

 

 

I used to work in Cadogan Street in Glasgow. Incredible to think they used to manufacture golf clubs there when you see what it's like now. Thanks for the great info.

[Jiggered]

I know the title for this is about Australian Blades but the featured clubs are from Scotland so I thought here was as good a place as any to post it.

Hopefully some of you will find this latest video of interest, I’ll be posting a link on various sites so apologies if you see it elsewhere!

 

 

 

[Jiggered]

I've been on the look-out for an example of an Ogg-Mented iron for quite a while now and I recently spotted a mixed bag of old clubs on ebay with some fuzzy pictures and three of the clubs looked to fit the bill.

 

I was the only bidder (at an obscenely low price) and collected them today.  They're by the St Andrew Golf Co and don't actually say Ogg-Mented on them but they obviously are Ogg-Mented irons.

 

The three lead filled holes can be clearly seen in the picture of the 5 iron below.

On the toe it reads; STAG, Toe Weighted, Double Balanced.

On the back of the blade it says

Made In Scotland, the signature is Densmore Shute, and below that it says, Hy-Power Shaft.

 

The shafts are indeed, Hy-Power, Made in USA

 

[Foozle]

7 hours ago, Jiggered said:

I've been on the look-out for an example of an Ogg-Mented iron for quite a while now and I recently spotted a mixed bag of old clubs on ebay with some fuzzy pictures and three of the clubs looked to fit the bill.

 

I was the only bidder (at an obscenely low price) and collected them today.  They're by the St Andrew Golf Co and don't actually say Ogg-Mented on them but they obviously are Ogg-Mented irons.

 

The three lead filled holes can be clearly seen in the picture of the 5 iron below.

On the toe it reads; STAG, Toe Weighted, Double Balanced.

On the back of the blade it says

Made In Scotland, the signature is Densmore Shute, and below that it says, Hy-Power Shaft.

 

The shafts are indeed, Hy-Power, Made in USA

 

Great find Jiggered!

I have also been searching for a set of Ogg-Mented irons, more so since the advent of PXG, but they have eluded me, or so I thought!

This 2 iron was part of the ramshackle assortment of pyratone and hickory clubs assembled by my family when I first showed an interest in golf. It is one of two that survive from that "set" and I have owned it for close to 50 years!

This one survived because as I grew older the confidence of youth dissipated and was replaced by the nervous yips that ruined my short game and plagues me to this day. When this happened I went back to this club, took a couple of inches off the shaft and used it as the colloquial version of a jigger. Great for 20-30 yard run up shots or "putts" from the fringe!

[bcstones]

22 hours ago, Jiggered said:

I've been on the look-out for an example of an Ogg-Mented iron for quite a while now and I recently spotted a mixed bag of old clubs on ebay with some fuzzy pictures and three of the clubs looked to fit the bill.

 

I was the only bidder (at an obscenely low price) and collected them today.  They're by the St Andrew Golf Co and don't actually say Ogg-Mented on them but they obviously are Ogg-Mented irons.

 

The three lead filled holes can be clearly seen in the picture of the 5 iron below.

On the toe it reads; STAG, Toe Weighted, Double Balanced.

On the back of the blade it says

Made In Scotland, the signature is Densmore Shute, and below that it says, Hy-Power Shaft.

 

The shafts are indeed, Hy-Power, Made in USA

 

hmm...looks familar - went out & retrieved these from a bag w/clubs of early Women golfers like Helen Hicks (these4), Babe Didrikson (also Zaharias)....interesting that the Hicks are pyratone shafts & Didrikson/Zaharias are steel...anyway. I'm pretty sure I have some other Ogg-Mented clubs in storage. 

 

 

The shafts as noted above are brown pyratone & need leather grips....

 

[Jiggered]

1 hour ago, bcstones said:

hmm...looks familar - went out & retrieved these from a bag w/clubs of early Women golfers like Helen Hicks (these4), Babe Didrikson (also Zaharias)....interesting that the Hicks are pyratone shafts & Didrikson/Zaharias are steel...anyway. I'm pretty sure I have some other Ogg-Mented clubs in storage. 

 

 

The shafts as noted above are brown pyratone & need leather grips....

 

 

 

Nice, mine have a brown Pyratone shaft that doesn't have the usual ferrule but instead widens towards the hosel, I assume that the Pyratone coating gets thicker at the hosel.

[bcstones]

1 hour ago, Jiggered said:

 

 

Nice, mine have a brown Pyratone shaft that doesn't have the usual ferrule but instead widens towards the hosel, I assume that the Pyratone coating gets thicker at the hosel.

could be it's missing the ferrule, could the pyratone shaft go under the ferrule? Just went and took the following pic...all 4 of the clubs have long ferrules (the 8, at the top, has a darker shaft than the others but otherwise the same)

[Jiggered]

8 hours ago, bcstones said:

could be it's missing the ferrule, could the pyratone shaft go under the ferrule? Just went and took the following pic...all 4 of the clubs have long ferrules (the 8, at the top, has a darker shaft than the others but otherwise the same)

 

 

Here's a picture of all three clubs, I can see no sign of a ferrule on any of them.

 

I also have a later set of St Andrew Golf Co Willie Ogg style irons (although they don't have the weighting in the toe) and they have the same flared coating, right down to the thin black plastic collar.

Picture below plus a close up of one where the collar has come away..

 

 

 

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

3 hours ago, Jiggered said:

 

Here's a picture of all three clubs, I can see no sign of a ferrule on any of them.

 

I also have a later set of St Andrew Golf Co Willie Ogg style irons (although they don't have the weighting in the toe) and they have the same flared coating, right down to the thin black plastic collar.

Picture below plus a close up of one where the collar has come away..

 

 

 

Interested to see the 'OW' model. I'm surmising that this is Willie Ogg's initials reversed, for what ever reason. If this was a practice back then perhaps the Frank Ayres DW model with the two level back was a tip of the cap to Willie Dunn. Is this possible?

[bcstones]

9 hours ago, Jiggered said:

 

Here's a picture of all three clubs, I can see no sign of a ferrule on any of them.

 

I also have a later set of St Andrew Golf Co Willie Ogg style irons (although they don't have the weighting in the toe) and they have the same flared coating, right down to the thin black plastic collar.

Picture below plus a close up of one where the collar has come away..

 

 

 

are you sure these are pyratone? they really look like wood shaft....does a magnet stick to them? 
I have a set of Kroydon early steel shaft irons, Kroydon in the early days of steel shaft era seems to have made steel shafts mimicing hickory shafts, probably to fit their existing heads...or they were just being stubborn. I also have a complete set of Kroydon iron heads that I hope to fit hickory shafts to...eventually

[Jiggered]

11 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Interested to see the 'OW' model. I'm surmising that this is Willie Ogg's initials reversed, for what ever reason. If this was a practice back then perhaps the Frank Ayres DW model with the two level back was a tip of the cap to Willie Dunn. Is this possible?

 

I also assumed the OW was for Ogg Willie, was Willie Dunn with FH Ayres? If so it's a possibility.

 

The only other thing I could think of was a possible connection with D&W Auchterlonie.

 

[Jiggered]

6 hours ago, bcstones said:

are you sure these are pyratone? they really look like wood shaft....does a magnet stick to them? 
I have a set of Kroydon early steel shaft irons, Kroydon in the early days of steel shaft era seems to have made steel shafts mimicing hickory shafts, probably to fit their existing heads...or they were just being stubborn. I also have a complete set of Kroydon iron heads that I hope to fit hickory shafts to...eventually

 

The shafts are definitely steel, although the coating probably isn't Pyratone as it has a softer feel. On the close up of the OW model iron you can see the steel shaft just as it enters the hosel.

 

Many early coated shafts were made to resemble wood, I suspect that manufacturers thought that this would gain acceptance more easily with the buying public who were used to hickory.

 

I'd be careful re-shafting heads made for steel with hickory, the hosels on steel shafted clubs are narrower and so the hickory won't be as thick ae it should be at this critical joint.

[bcstones]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:42 PM, Jiggered said:

 

The shafts are definitely steel, although the coating probably isn't Pyratone as it has a softer feel. On the close up of the OW model iron you can see the steel shaft just as it enters the hosel.

 

Many early coated shafts were made to resemble wood, I suspect that manufacturers thought that this would gain acceptance more easily with the buying public who were used to hickory.

 

I'd be careful re-shafting heads made for steel with hickory, the hosels on steel shafted clubs are narrower and so the hickory won't be as thick ae it should be at this critical joint.

I agree that early coated, & pyratone shafts especially,were to gain acceptance, but also think that there was a desire to "protect" the steel shafts as they were steel rods sans any kind of protection...Odel Trueblood, my Elder Pro friend, said he spent alot of his early assistant club por time replacing the pyratone sheathing. I'm guessing that the painted shafts might have been more durable. All that came to a halt as technology improved & chromed shafts came into being.

You might have misunderstood me, Kroydon in the post WWI years manfactured a complete line of golf clubs, not just heads. "They became a premier manufacturer of golf clubs, due to it's adopting formed steel shafts in their clubs, instead of hickory shafts. kroydon drew its own shafts on speial machinery, designed by themselves." (from the site Rahway Valley Railroad titled "Kroydon"). So I have this "set" of Croydon's from that era, the 3rd pic shows the flare of the shaft going into a hozel that could also fit a hickory shaft. I have seen hickory shafted Kroydon irons, but wonder if that was done later by the owner of the club. Anyway, I also have (somewhere...aargg) a complete set of heads, that will fit hickory shafts...that is what I meant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by bcstones

[Hickory4ever]

Kroydon was making clubs with hickory shafts prior to their own steel shafts. I have several of them and I have a couple friends that play them as their main play clubs. Their honeycomb faced ones were popular before being ruled non conforming along with deep grooved irons in the early 1920’s.

[Scully13]

Found these at  my local thrift- complete set of 2-10 plus 3 laminate woods. 12 clubs in total for $80.

 

Are these worth it, love the Made in Scotland branded clubs?

 

Any insights?

[Jiggered]

5 hours ago, Scully13 said:

Found these at  my local thrift- complete set of 2-10 plus 3 laminate woods. 12 clubs in total for $80.

 

Are these worth it, love the Made in Scotland branded clubs?

 

Any insights?

 

 

John Letters were one of the better UK manufacturers, the clubs shown are circa 1966. 

They are reasonable quality, probably on a par with MacGregor or Wilson store line clubs.

 

The John Letters company was bought by Dunlop in 1957 and from then on both Dunlop and John Letters clubs were produced at the same factory near Glasgow.

 

The John Letters family bought the name back from Dunlop in 1983 but by this time the UK golf industry was already starting a slow decline into obscurity. The company changed hands several more times but finally closed within the last 10 years.

 

The clubs would be highly priced at $80 in the UK, but In the US where they're rarer that's probably about right.

 

 

[Foozle]

13 hours ago, Scully13 said:

Found these at  my local thrift- complete set of 2-10 plus 3 laminate woods. 12 clubs in total for $80.

 

Are these worth it, love the Made in Scotland branded clubs?

 

Any insights?

I agree with all Jiggered has said but would qualify the "store line" comment as, whilst this may be true as a reference to quality, it does not preclude Pro use. I own a set of these Power Master irons which were previously owned and played by a former Pro friend. I guess that the John Letters product range at this time was quite limited so if you were sponsored by them, as a great many were, you had a limited choice of weapons to play - more or less the Master Model or these. The big names such as Gary Player, Dia Rees and Bernie Gallacher had their own branded versions of Master Model and later Lee Trevino would have his Master and Super Mex branded clubs.

In terms of John Letters history, perhaps the most significant clubs are these original Fred Daly Masters Model irons from 1948 onwards.

They were issued following Fred's 1947 Open win and were used by some 75% of the field in the 1948 Open field! Versions of these were later produced with other player endorsements.

These are stunning "survivor" examples in almost unmarked original condition, including grips, end caps and ferrules and unusual in having pyratone shafts. 

I also have these steel shafted versions which were owned and played on the "European Circuit" by the same former Pro who had the Power Masters.

Value wise, again Jiggered is correct, they have limited value here in the UK where they are relatively abundant; this may be different in the USA.

My steel shafted Masters Model's are priceless to me due purely to sentimental reasons and the personal connection / history with the original owner.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

4 hours ago, Foozle said:

I agree with all Jiggered has said but would qualify the "store line" comment as, whilst this may be true as a reference to quality, it does not preclude Pro use. I own a set of these Power Master irons which were previously owned and played by a former Pro friend. I guess that the John Letters product range at this time was quite limited so if you were sponsored by them, as a great many were, you had a limited choice of weapons to play - more or less the Master Model or these. The big names such as Gary Player, Dia Rees and Bernie Gallacher had their own branded versions of Master Model and later Lee Trevino would have his Master and Super Mex branded clubs.

In terms of John Letters history, perhaps the most significant clubs are these original Fred Daly Masters Model irons from 1948 onwards.

They were issued following Fred's 1947 Open win and were used by some 75% of the field in the 1948 Open field! Versions of these were later produced with other player endorsements.

These are stunning "survivor" examples in almost unmarked original condition, including grips, end caps and ferrules and unusual in having pyratone shafts. 

I also have these steel shafted versions which were owned and played on the "European Circuit" by the same former Pro who had the Power Masters.

Value wise, again Jiggered is correct, they have limited value here in the UK where they are relatively abundant; this may be different in the USA.

My steel shafted Masters Model's are priceless to me due purely to sentimental reasons and the personal connection / history with the original owner.

My first proper set back in 1962. My father bought them for £5 in Windsor market.

Edited September 20, 2022 by The Aspidistra in the Hall

[Jiggered]

26 minutes ago, Foozle said:

I agree with all Jiggered has said but would qualify the "store line" comment as, whilst this may be true as a reference to quality, it does not preclude Pro use. I own a set of these Power Master irons which were previously owned and played by a former Pro friend. I guess that the John Letters product range at this time was quite limited so if you were sponsored by them, as a great many were, you had a limited choice of weapons to play - more or less the Master Model or these. The big names such as Gary Player, Dia Rees and Bernie Gallacher had their own branded versions of Master Model and later Lee Trevino would have his Master and Super Mex branded clubs.

In terms of John Letters history, perhaps the most significant clubs are these original Fred Daly Masters Model irons from 1948 onwards.

They were issued following Fred's 1947 Open win and were used by some 75% of the field in the 1948 Open field! Versions of these were later produced with other player endorsements.

These are stunning "survivor" examples in almost unmarked original condition, including grips, end caps and ferrules and unusual in having pyratone shafts. 

I also have these steel shafted versions which were owned and played on the "European Circuit" by the same former Pro who had the Power Masters.

Value wise, again Jiggered is correct, they have limited value here in the UK where they are relatively abundant; this may be different in the USA.

My steel shafted Masters Model's are priceless to me due purely to sentimental reasons and the personal connection / history with the original owner.

 

The coated shaft set is superb, have you shown these before?

 

I often wonder why the reference to Fred's Open and Match Play wins isn't stamped on more of the clubs, both wins were in 1947 right near the start of the Master Model line.

 

What years were your steel shafted set played on tour?

[mahonie]

I read somewhere that 8 out of 10 UK & I golfers in one of the late 1940s Ryder Cups played John Letters clubs. 

 

I remember testing a set of John Letters Trilogy irons in the mid-1990s, but ended up buying a set of Wilson Staff Progressives on the toss of a coin.

[Foozle]

59 minutes ago, mahonie said:

I read somewhere that 8 out of 10 UK & I golfers in one of the late 1940s Ryder Cups played John Letters clubs. 

 

I remember testing a set of John Letters Trilogy irons in the mid-1990s, but ended up buying a set of Wilson Staff Progressives on the toss of a coin.

That is correct. It was the 1949 match when these irons were completely dominant on this side of the pond.

Didn't do us much good as Ben Hogan's USA team prevailed!

[Foozle]

1 hour ago, Jiggered said:

 

The coated shaft set is superb, have you shown these before?

 

I often wonder why the reference to Fred's Open and Match Play wins isn't stamped on more of the clubs, both wins were in 1947 right near the start of the Master Model line.

 

What years were your steel shafted set played on tour?

The pyratones are a recent addition so not shared previously. They go well with my early Goose!

I don't know why the winning references were removed but I guess my steel shafted set date from the early '50's. My friend would have been too young to turn pro in 1948. They go well with my steel shafted Fred Daly putter!

I also have sets of the slightly later and differently shaped Fred Daly Master Model irons but don't seem to have any pictures to hand.

Referencing 1947 I also have these later anomaly tribute irons which I think we may have debated before? My guess is 40th anniversary using over run from another production model.

Playing wise, only my bag is currently John Letters.

[Jiggered]

8 hours ago, Foozle said:

The pyratones are a recent addition so not shared previously. They go well with my early Goose!

I don't know why the winning references were removed but I guess my steel shafted set date from the early '50's. My friend would have been too young to turn pro in 1948. They go well with my steel shafted Fred Daly putter!

I also have sets of the slightly later and differently shaped Fred Daly Master Model irons but don't seem to have any pictures to hand.

Referencing 1947 I also have these later anomaly tribute irons which I think we may have debated before? My guess is 40th anniversary using over run from another production model.

Playing wise, only my bag is currently John Letters.

 

Aah, that's why I'd not seen them before, great find!

 

Love that Fred Daly putter, mines a more traditional look but yours is similar to a brass version I have.

 

We have discussed the Anniversary irons before.

 

Nice John Letters bag! 

I also have nothing John Letters in the bag this week, all Slazenger Johnny Miller JM63.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Jiggered

[Jiggered]

A quick look at some Nicoll Henry Cotton irons from 1957 and a brief summary of his career.

 

 

[Ray M56]

Yesterday I rescued a Gene Sarazen Ogg-mented matched set from the tip. It is in excellent condition 9 clubs numbered 1 to 9. Interestingly the club numbered 9 appears to be the putter as it has no loft, but it otherwise matches the rest, they all have the three toe inserts. They have steel shafts with a wood pattern paint finish with hardly a scratch on them. The original leather grips are a bit shiny but nice too. 

 

They have both the Stag (St Andrews Golf of Glasgow) and Wilson (red and blue flags) logos on them. The clubs were made in Scotland.
 

As a first time poster I haven’t done photos but if anyone is genuinely interested please reply and I’ll find out how to do it. 

 

Here is a link that you may also find interesting, to a vintage magazine article, including info on Willie Ogg and Ogg-mented clubs. 
 

https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1966jun35.pdf

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Ray M56
Spelling error