Smart phones, distance measuring devices

[BrianL99]

Admittedly, this is a fairly esoteric question, but that's not unusual in the Rules Forum, so I'll ask.

 

Without getting into the discussion of which Smart Phones are illegal under the eyes of the USGA or RA, here's the scenario.

 

Players A & B are playing a "qualifying" round for a tournament.

 

Players C & D are playing in the foursome as "markers".

 

Player B's "distance measuring device" is deemed illegal by the USGA.

 

Player B hands his illegal device to Player C, prior to stepping onto the 1st Tee.

 

Player A & Player C's drives land within 2 yards of each other.

 

Before playing his approach shot, player A asks player C, "how many yards to the flag"?

 

Player C looks at A's "illegal device" and responds: "I've got 137" to the front.

 

Legal?

 

 

Scenario (b)

 

Same as above, except said "illegal device" measures slope and Player C doesn't know that.

 

When Play A asks for the distance, he responds with the distance shown on the Range Finder, unaware that the Range Finder is calculating slope distance.

[sui generis]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1432899417' post='11648488']
Admittedly, this is a fairly esoteric question, but that's not unusual in the Rules Forum, so I'll ask.

Without getting into the discussion of which Smart Phones are illegal under the eyes of the USGA or RA, here's the scenario.

Players A & B are playing a "qualifying" round for a tournament.

Players C & D are playing in the foursome as "markers".

Player B's "distance measuring device" is deemed illegal by the USGA.

Player B hands his illegal device to Player C, prior to stepping onto the 1st Tee.

Player A & Player C's drives land within 2 yards of each other.

Before playing his approach shot, player A asks player C, "how many yards to the flag"?

Player C looks at A's "illegal device" and responds: "I've got 137" to the front.

Legal?


Scenario (b)

Same as above, except said "illegal device" measures slope and Player C doesn't know that.

When Play A asks for the distance, he responds with the distance shown on the Range Finder, unaware that the Range Finder is calculating slope distance.
[/quote]

The Rules address the "use of" DMDs, not whose hand they happen to be in. And, the "nobody told me" defense would most likely not fly.

[QEight]

[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1432900993' post='11648568']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1432899417' post='11648488']
Scenario (b)

Same as above, except said "illegal device" measures slope and Player C doesn't know that.

When Play A asks for the distance, he responds with the distance shown on the Range Finder, unaware that the Range Finder is calculating slope distance.
[/quote]

The Rules address the "use of" DMDs, not whose hand they happen to be in. And, the "nobody told me" defense would most likely not fly.
[/quote]

So if I get distance information from a person using, unknowingly to me, illegal DMD, I have violated a rule?

[BrianL99]

[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1432900993' post='11648568']

The Rules address the "use of" DMDs, not whose hand they happen to be in. And, the "nobody told me" defense would most likely not fly.
[/quote]

I should be smart enough not to disagree with you on "rules", but how about an easy challenge to your opinion?

"Distance" between points has been deemed "public knowledge".

Golfers aren't responsible for the actions of non-competitors in their group.

If it changes your opinion, would it make a difference if Players A & B were unaware of the fact that said DMD was "illegal" ?

[rogolf]

Here are the relevant Decisions:

[b][size=5]14-3/0.5[/size][/b]
[b][size=3]Local Rule Permitting Use of Distance-Measuring Device[/size][/b]
[size=3]Q.May a Committee, by Local Rule, permit the use of distance-measuring devices?[/size]
[size=3]A.Yes. A Committee may establish a Local Rule allowing players to use devices that measure or gauge distance only (see the Note to Rule 14-3). However, the use of a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc.) is not permitted regardless of whether such an additional function is used.[/size]
[size=3]In the absence of such a Local Rule, the use of a distance-measuring device would be contrary to Rule 14-3.[/size]
[url=""][/url][b][size=5]14-3/0.7[/size][/b]
[b][size=3]Player Obtains Distance Information Measured with Electronic Device[/size][/b]
[size=3]Q.During a stipulated round, a player himself uses an electronic measuring device to obtain distance information. The Committee has not adopted a Local Rule allowing players to use devices to measure or gauge distance (see Note to Rule 14-3). What is the ruling?[/size]
[size=3]A.The player is disqualified. The prohibition in Rule 14-3 against using an electronic device to obtain distance information extends to the player or a member of his side using such a device to obtain distance information. This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. However, the player would not be disqualified merely because a spectator or other outside agency provided such information to him without being requested to do so. Similarly, a player is not prohibited from obtaining distance information from scoreboards or from a referee (e.g., when using an artificial device to determine the order of play).[/size]

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1432901427' post='11648616']
[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1432900993' post='11648568']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1432899417' post='11648488']
Scenario (b)

Same as above, except said "illegal device" measures slope and Player C doesn't know that.

When Play A asks for the distance, he responds with the distance shown on the Range Finder, unaware that the Range Finder is calculating slope distance.
[/quote]

The Rules address the "use of" DMDs, not whose hand they happen to be in. And, the "nobody told me" defense would most likely not fly.
[/quote]

So if I get distance information from a person using, unknowingly to me, illegal DMD, I have violated a rule?
[/quote]

That is an excellent question. I have never asked a fc whether his DMD is conforming.

Would there be a difference if you asked that question and the fc responds so that you believe his DMD is conforming? And if you did not ask you would be in trouble? After all, D14-3/0.7 does suggest that a player is responsible for his actions also in this respect.

[rapriebe]

[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1432901427' post='11648616']
[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1432900993' post='11648568']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1432899417' post='11648488']
Scenario (b)

Same as above, except said "illegal device" measures slope and Player C doesn't know that.

When Play A asks for the distance, he responds with the distance shown on the Range Finder, unaware that the Range Finder is calculating slope distance.
[/quote]

The Rules address the "use of" DMDs, not whose hand they happen to be in. And, the "nobody told me" defense would most likely not fly.
[/quote]

So if I get distance information from a person using, unknowingly to me, illegal DMD, I have violated a rule?
[/quote]

If you requested that information then yes, you are in breach. If the information was volunteered by him then you are not, but you should ensure that it doesn't happen again.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1432899417' post='11648488']
Admittedly, this is a fairly esoteric question, but that's not unusual in the Rules Forum, so I'll ask.

Without getting into the discussion of which Smart Phones are illegal under the eyes of the USGA or RA, here's the scenario.

Players A & B are playing a "qualifying" round for a tournament.

Players C & D are playing in the foursome as "markers".

Player B's "distance measuring device" is deemed illegal by the USGA.

Player B hands his illegal device to Player C, prior to stepping onto the 1st Tee.

Player A & Player C's drives land within 2 yards of each other.

Before playing his approach shot, player A asks player C, "how many yards to the flag"?

Player C looks at A's "illegal device" and responds: "I've got 137" to the front.

Legal?


Scenario (b)

Same as above, except said "illegal device" measures slope and Player C doesn't know that.

When Play A asks for the distance, he responds with the distance shown on the Range Finder, unaware that the Range Finder is calculating slope distance.
[/quote]

Thank you for a great question, and to ROGOLF for posting the relevant decision. I learned from another thread, it's a good day!

Kevin

[BrianL99]

I either asked the question in an unclear manner, I don't understand the subsequent answers or the discussion has clarified the question in my mind.


Player A & B are partners.

Players C & D are partners and fellow competitors to A & B.

The Committee has adopted a Local Rule allowing DMD

Player C is using a Leupold DMD with Slope. There is no simple method for determining if it's the USGA "legal model" or the one the USGA has ruled illegal. Nor is there any reason for team A/B to suspect that Player C's DMD may not be legal.

You can substitute illegal Smart Phone for the DMD, as it's difficult to ascertain if a specific Smart phone is legal or not.

Player A & C are close by in the fairway and A asks B: "What do you have to the Pin"?

C answers with a legitimate distance to the Pin (disregards the fact that his DMD also gives him slope).

[i]Alternatively, C answers with a distance that considers "slope" (if that makes a difference in the application of the rules).[/i]

The "distance information" received by A is legal, as it's a "matter of public information", however it was obtained from an "illegal device".

Just my opinion, but I don't think the Decisions quoted earlier (& below), apply. I thought there was a presumption in my question that DMD's had been approved for use by the Committee (which I believe means that Decisions 14-3/0.5 & 14-3/07 aren't applicable on their face).

So what happens to Players A & B?



[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1432903449' post='11648832']
Here are the relevant Decisions:

[b][size=5]14-3/0.5[/size][/b]
[b][size=3]Local Rule Permitting Use of Distance-Measuring Device[/size][/b]

[i][b][size=3]Q.May a Committee, by Local Rule, permit the use of distance-measuring devices?[/size][/b]
[size=3][b]A.Yes. [/b][/size][/i]

[b][size=5]14-3/0.7[/size][/b]
[b][size=3]Player Obtains Distance Information Measured with Electronic Device[/size][/b]

[size=3]Q.During a stipulated round, a player [i][b]himself[/b][/i] uses an electronic measuring device to obtain distance information. [i][b]The Committee has not adopted a Local Rule allowing players to use devices to measure [/b][/i][/size]

[/quote]

[KevCarter]

I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]

[kurob]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1432983859' post='11655018']
Player A & C are close by in the fairway and A asks B: "What do you have to the Pin"?

C answers with a legitimate distance to the Pin (disregards the fact that his DMD also gives him slope).

[i]Alternatively, C answers with a distance that considers "slope" (if that makes a difference in the application of the rules).[/i]

The "distance information" received by A is legal, as it's a "matter of public information", however it was obtained from an "illegal device".
[/quote]

I don't have a strong opinion on how this shakes in via the rules, but the slope adjusted distance doesn't feel like "public information" to me.

[sui generis]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

Rules "weasels" are always on the lookout for a way to game the Rules.

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='kurob' timestamp='1432989326' post='11655240']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1432983859' post='11655018']
Player A & C are close by in the fairway and A asks B: "What do you have to the Pin"?

C answers with a legitimate distance to the Pin (disregards the fact that his DMD also gives him slope).

[i]Alternatively, C answers with a distance that considers "slope" (if that makes a difference in the application of the rules).[/i]

The "distance information" received by A is legal, as it's a "matter of public information", however it was obtained from an "illegal device".
[/quote]

I don't have a strong opinion on how this shakes in via the rules, but the slope adjusted distance doesn't feel like "public information" to me.
[/quote]

But player A didn't ask player C for the information. Player C just chimed in.

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

What in any of those scenarios makes you think player A knows that the device is illegal?

And player A did not ask an outside agency to use an artificial device, he simply asked for a yardage.

[Mr. Bean]

Let us take a similar example.

Player X breaks his driver when hitting his ball. According to the Rules he is allowed to substitute that club. So he asks a friend of his to bring him the driver that this friend was testing on the range before the tee-off. The friend fetches the driver from his car and gives it to player X who uses it for the rest of the round.

On the last hole someone in the group notices that the driver player X is using is non-conforming.

Ruling?

a) X is disqualified for use of a non-conforming club
b) no penalty as X did not know that club was non-conforming

[HitEmTrue]

Nice mr bean. If player A asks player C for yardage from a device, it should be player A's responsibility to find out if the device is legal first.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1432995681' post='11655670']
Nice mr bean. If player A asks player C for yardage from a device, it should be player A's responsibility to find out if the device is legal first.
[/quote]

And his responsibility to assure himself that a club he is given is legal before he accepts it.

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1432995681' post='11655670']
Nice mr bean. If player A asks player C for yardage from a device, it should be player A's responsibility to find out if the device is legal first.
[/quote]

But in the first scenario he didn't ask for yardage from a device. He just asked for the yardage. In the second scenario, he didn't even ask player C for yardage, C just gave it on his own.

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1432993294' post='11655518']
Let us take a similar example.

Player X breaks his driver when hitting his ball. According to the Rules he is allowed to substitute that club. So he asks a friend of his to bring him the driver that this friend was testing on the range before the tee-off. The friend fetches the driver from his car and gives it to player X who uses it for the rest of the round.

On the last hole someone in the group notices that the driver player X is using is non-conforming.

Ruling?

a) X is disqualified for use of a non-conforming club
b) no penalty as X did not know that club was non-conforming
[/quote]

Not really a similar example. Here player X himself is using the club. In the OP's example, the player himself did not use the artificial device, nor did he ask someone to use it. Decision 14.3/0.7 clearly states "During a stipulated round, a player himself uses an electronic measuring device..."

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Mr. Herbert' timestamp='1433004349' post='11656318']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1432993294' post='11655518']
Let us take a similar example.

Player X breaks his driver when hitting his ball. According to the Rules he is allowed to substitute that club. So he asks a friend of his to bring him the driver that this friend was testing on the range before the tee-off. The friend fetches the driver from his car and gives it to player X who uses it for the rest of the round.

On the last hole someone in the group notices that the driver player X is using is non-conforming.

Ruling?

a) X is disqualified for use of a non-conforming club
b) no penalty as X did not know that club was non-conforming
[/quote]

Not really a similar example. Here player X himself is using the club. In the OP's example, the player himself did not use the artificial device, nor did he ask someone to use it. Decision 14.3/0.7 clearly states "During a stipulated round, a player himself uses an electronic measuring device..."
[/quote]

That Dec also says '[size="2"]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him[/size]'.

But you are partly right about the original scenario. The way I read it is that A knows that C has a DMD, otherwise he would not have asked him. Naturally we cannot be sure of that but that is my assumption. But then comes the hard part: should A make sure that he is not asking C to actually measure the yardage before he (A) has made sure that C does not have a non-conforming DMD? It goes pretty far but if a player asks someone to measure the yardage he is responsible for any breach of Rules even if he does not use the device himself. That is the similarity I am referring to, and following that similarity I would say that A is in breach as soon as C deliveres the yardage.

It would be far too easy to circumvent R14-3 if a player should be absolved if he just asks someone for the yardage instead of asking that someone to measure it for him. IMO asking for a yardage and knowing the other person is using a DMD means asking for a measurement of distance. All in all it sounds harsh for player A but it would be very difficult to draw the line elsewhere, I think.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433021937' post='11657290']
[quote name='Mr. Herbert' timestamp='1433004349' post='11656318']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1432993294' post='11655518']
Let us take a similar example.

Player X breaks his driver when hitting his ball. According to the Rules he is allowed to substitute that club. So he asks a friend of his to bring him the driver that this friend was testing on the range before the tee-off. The friend fetches the driver from his car and gives it to player X who uses it for the rest of the round.

On the last hole someone in the group notices that the driver player X is using is non-conforming.

Ruling?

a) X is disqualified for use of a non-conforming club
b) no penalty as X did not know that club was non-conforming
[/quote]

Not really a similar example. Here player X himself is using the club. In the OP's example, the player himself did not use the artificial device, nor did he ask someone to use it. Decision 14.3/0.7 clearly states "During a stipulated round, a player himself uses an electronic measuring device..."
[/quote]

That Dec also says '[size=2]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him[/size]'.

But you are partly right about the original scenario. The way I read it is that A knows that C has a DMD, otherwise he would not have asked him. Naturally we cannot be sure of that but that is my assumption. But then comes the hard part: should A make sure that he is not asking C to actually measure the yardage before he (A) has made sure that C does not have a non-conforming DMD? It goes pretty far but if a player asks someone to measure the yardage he is responsible for any breach of Rules even if he does not use the device himself. That is the similarity I am referring to, and following that similarity I would say that A is in breach as soon as C deliveres the yardage.

It would be far too easy to circumvent R14-3 if a player should be absolved if he just asks someone for the yardage instead of asking that someone to measure it for him. IMO asking for a yardage and knowing the other person is using a DMD means asking for a measurement of distance. All in all it sounds harsh for player A but it would be very difficult to draw the line elsewhere, I think.
[/quote]

Happy to hear we are interpreting the same way.

Cheers!

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433021937' post='11657290']
[quote name='Mr. Herbert' timestamp='1433004349' post='11656318']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1432993294' post='11655518']
Let us take a similar example.

Player X breaks his driver when hitting his ball. According to the Rules he is allowed to substitute that club. So he asks a friend of his to bring him the driver that this friend was testing on the range before the tee-off. The friend fetches the driver from his car and gives it to player X who uses it for the rest of the round.

On the last hole someone in the group notices that the driver player X is using is non-conforming.

Ruling?

a) X is disqualified for use of a non-conforming club
b) no penalty as X did not know that club was non-conforming
[/quote]

Not really a similar example. Here player X himself is using the club. In the OP's example, the player himself did not use the artificial device, nor did he ask someone to use it. Decision 14.3/0.7 clearly states "During a stipulated round, a player himself uses an electronic measuring device..."
[/quote]

That Dec also says '[size="2"]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him[/size]'.

But you are partly right about the original scenario. The way I read it is that A knows that C has a DMD, otherwise he would not have asked him. Naturally we cannot be sure of that but that is my assumption. But then comes the hard part: should A make sure that he is not asking C to actually measure the yardage before he (A) has made sure that C does not have a non-conforming DMD? It goes pretty far but if a player asks someone to measure the yardage he is responsible for any breach of Rules even if he does not use the device himself. That is the similarity I am referring to, and following that similarity I would say that A is in breach as soon as C deliveres the yardage.

It would be far too easy to circumvent R14-3 if a player should be absolved if he just asks someone for the yardage instead of asking that someone to measure it for him. IMO asking for a yardage and knowing the other person is using a DMD means asking for a measurement of distance. All in all it sounds harsh for player A but it would be very difficult to draw the line elsewhere, I think.
[/quote]

I agree if player A knows player C is going to use a DMD then he should get a DQ. But I don't see why you assume A knew. They are playing in a tournament where DMDs are not allowed, why would he think C has one to use? Especially since C didn't have one to begin with, and was only holding it for B. I don't think it's unreasonable to think A may just ask the marker what he has for yardage from his spot.

So if that was the case, and player A asked C what he had for a yardage, and C looked at his GPS watch and replied "140" before A realizes that C is using a DMD, what would be your ruling?

And what about the second scenario where A asks B what he has for yardage, and C replies after using a DMD?

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1432993294' post='11655518']
Let us take a similar example.

Player X breaks his driver when hitting his ball. According to the Rules he is allowed to substitute that club. So he asks a friend of his to bring him the driver that this friend was testing on the range before the tee-off. The friend fetches the driver from his car and gives it to player X who uses it for the rest of the round.

On the last hole someone in the group notices that the driver player X is using is non-conforming.

Ruling?

a) X is disqualified for use of a non-conforming club
b) no penalty as X did not know that club was non-conforming
[/quote]

I hate to disagree with you Mr. Bean, but I disagree with your 1st sentence, which makes the rest of your answer moot in my opinion. The player is NOT allowed to substitute that club, because it was non-conforming to begin with. It's the player's obligation to confirm he's playing with conforming clubs ... not the supplier.

(Sorry Sawgrass, I wrote the above response before I read your post.)

[BrianL99]

[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1432989842' post='11655264']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

Rules "weasels" are always on the lookout for a way to game the Rules.
[/quote]

If you're stumped for an answer, why not just stay out of the issue?

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433029626' post='11657860']
[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1432989842' post='11655264']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

Rules "weasels" are always on the lookout for a way to game the Rules.
[/quote]

If you're stumped for an answer, why not just stay out of the issue?
[/quote]

You need to clarify your original post. When A asked C for yardage, did he know C was going to use a DMD?

[BrianL99]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

My original question presumed the Committee had authorized the use of DMD's, Kevin. I didn't make that clear in the original question. Most club tournaments that I'm aware of, authorize the use of DMD's in all club tournaments.

It seems that lately, 20% of the people I play with, are using an iPhone for GPS distance. As best I can figure, the USGA prohibits iPhones as a DMD. From more than 2' away, there's no way to tell if someone is using and iPhone or some other sort of smart phone (which may or may not be "legal").

I know plenty of people who use Rangefinders with Slope. There's no way for most people to know if someone else's Rangefinder has slope capability.

We're entitled to ask a fellow competitor (or opponent for that matter) for a specific distance.

The more I read, the simpler the question gets. Are we responsible for the (undisclosed or unknown) breach by an opponent or fellow competitor.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Mr. Herbert' timestamp='1433029866' post='11657890']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433029626' post='11657860']
[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1432989842' post='11655264']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

Rules "weasels" are always on the lookout for a way to game the Rules.
[/quote]

If you're stumped for an answer, why not just stay out of the issue?
[/quote]

You need to clarify your original post. When A asked C for yardage, did he know C was going to use a DMD?
[/quote]

I clarified it in Post #9 and again in Post #26.

I should have included in the original question, that the use of DMD's were authorized by the Committee.

The question was never meant to question the legality of using a DMD, but the use of a non-legal DMD by an opponent or fellow competitor (unbeknown to the Player asking for distance).

[rogolf]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433030635' post='11657942']
[quote name='Mr. Herbert' timestamp='1433029866' post='11657890']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433029626' post='11657860']
[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1432989842' post='11655264']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

Rules "weasels" are always on the lookout for a way to game the Rules.
[/quote]

If you're stumped for an answer, why not just stay out of the issue?
[/quote]

You need to clarify your original post. When A asked C for yardage, did he know C was going to use a DMD?
[/quote]

I clarified it in Post #9 and again in Post #26.

I should have included in the original question, that the use of DMD's were authorized by the Committee.

The question was never meant to question the legality of using a DMD, but the use of a non-legal DMD by an opponent or fellow competitor (unbeknown to the Player asking for distance).
[/quote]

The player has put himself at risk by asking for the distance information without knowing how (with what instrument) it was measured. It will ultimately depend on the decision of the Committee, but I think he's toasted if the DMD does not conform with the Rules.

[Sean2]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

Makes sense.

Keep away from the WMD's too.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433032968' post='11658128']


The player has put himself at risk by asking for the distance information without knowing how (with what instrument) it was measured. It will ultimately depend on the decision of the Committee, but I think he's toasted if the DMD does not conform with the Rules.
[/quote]

That's the answer that seems to make the most sense to me.

I guess I never quite understood why the USGA ever decided to allow DMDs. I fondly remember picking out distances from "small shrubs" that were planted on each side of the fairway, at approximately 150 yards.

Oh well ... it's the technology age, I suppose they have to make some allowances.