side saddle putters - what putter are you using?

[J_Tizzle]

> @brentflog said:

> > @Ripper212 said:

> > > @brentflog said:

> > > > @Ripper212 said:

> > > > > @ncp10 said:

> > > > > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > > > > As long as the putter you're using conforms to USGA guidelines AND you don't anchor it - you can hold it any way you want.

> > > > > > So there's nothing to call Randy on.

> > > > >

> > > > > That was Randy's words at the time. Now if my left elbow touches my chest but my left hand does not contact any body part, am I still not anchored?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > PR Dionne who makes the GP putter specifically told me that you cannot let left elbow touch your chest when putting. Also note in the video posted above, he says he DOES NOT anchor left forearm to chest, and you can clearly see the left elbow is not in contact with his body.

> > >

> > > The elbow can be braced against the body. I can’t get it to touch my chest put could stick it in my gut. I don’t because it isn’t very comfortable

> > > http://wpmedia.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Screen-Shot-2012-11-28-at-9.18.38-AM.png

> >

> > No - that is prohibited as clearly depicted in the picture you linked. Forearm or elbow cannot be anchored anywhere on the body. With that said, nobody I play with would notice or care and I don't really pay much attention to it myself.

>

> Forearm is prohibited. Elbow isn’t look at the pictures again.

 

yeah I believe on this, since your hand is not fixed, then its OK. its like saying your hands are fixed to your shoulders on a normal putting approach.

 

That said, I don't necessarily anchor my elbow, but i squeeze my bicep against my rib cage awful hard. Which in effect, stabilizes my arm/hand.

[Ripper212]

> @brentflog said:

> > @Ripper212 said:

> > > @brentflog said:

> > > > @Ripper212 said:

> > > > > @ncp10 said:

> > > > > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > > > > As long as the putter you're using conforms to USGA guidelines AND you don't anchor it - you can hold it any way you want.

> > > > > > So there's nothing to call Randy on.

> > > > >

> > > > > That was Randy's words at the time. Now if my left elbow touches my chest but my left hand does not contact any body part, am I still not anchored?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > PR Dionne who makes the GP putter specifically told me that you cannot let left elbow touch your chest when putting. Also note in the video posted above, he says he DOES NOT anchor left forearm to chest, and you can clearly see the left elbow is not in contact with his body.

> > >

> > > The elbow can be braced against the body. I can’t get it to touch my chest put could stick it in my gut. I don’t because it isn’t very comfortable

> > > http://wpmedia.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Screen-Shot-2012-11-28-at-9.18.38-AM.png

> >

> > No - that is prohibited as clearly depicted in the picture you linked. Forearm or elbow cannot be anchored anywhere on the body. With that said, nobody I play with would notice or care and I don't really pay much attention to it myself.

>

> Forearm is prohibited. Elbow isn’t look at the pictures again.

 

You are correct. I was wrong and mislead by none other than Patrice Dionne himself!!

[ncp10]

> @Ripper212 said:.... Can't get much different than SS/FO...

Not so unfortunately--as I carefully stated, it's the powering by the right side that is the yip-prone action, so is not really radically different. But left handed--yes, that is how I putt when I'm feeling yippy and indeed I don't yip then. The problem is that I am right-eye dominant and it is nigh to impossible to see putting lines from a left-handed setup for me.

 

 

[Ripper212]

> @ncp10 said:

> > @Ripper212 said:.... Can't get much different than SS/FO...

> Not so unfortunately--as I carefully stated, it's the powering by the right side that is the yip-prone action, so is not really radically different. But left handed--yes, that is how I putt when I'm feeling yippy and indeed I don't yip then. The problem is that I am right-eye dominant and it is nigh to impossible to see putting lines from a left-handed setup for me.

>

>

 

Understood but couldn't hurt to try.

[ncp10]

There is testimony from world class yippers (Randy H I think described himself that way) so I agree it's worth a try. I'm hoping I can take this $36 Ping putter I bought out tomorrow and see how it goes. I'll know instantly whether it's really worth the cost and learning, even though this putter isn't ideal I understand. I can hold it vertical bit it doesn't leave much room for error since the lie is maybe 65 or so.

[ncp10]

> @J-Tizzle said:

> And trust me, I always tell people the hardest part of SS putting is making sure your skin is thick enough when you play with new people. But all they have to see if a few putts falling and it shuts them up fairly quick.,

 

Oh, no problem here w/ that--after having to deal with yips putting SS would require no thick skin at all!

 

 

[J_Tizzle]

> @ncp10 said:

> > @J-Tizzle said:

> > And trust me, I always tell people the hardest part of SS putting is making sure your skin is thick enough when you play with new people. But all they have to see if a few putts falling and it shuts them up fairly quick.,

>

> Oh, no problem here w/ that--after having to deal with yips putting SS would require no thick skin at all!

>

>

 

Yep, couldn't agree more. Now when getting ready to play if someone asks about it, my brother just says "trust me, its so much better than him with a short putter". Then if they don't believe him, I'll grab their putter, stab at a few 5ft putts and say "see".

[bluedot]

As to the yips and side saddle:

 

1. I believe with all my heart that the yips are first and foremost fear based, but are always accompanied by a technical issue as well. The fear is the fear of being seen as less than you are, of missing putts that you "ought" to make, and, in that regard, most true yippers were good or VERY good conventional putters earlier on. The technical issue is the breakdown of the wrists, or a difficulty in releasing the clubhead by coordinating the action of the two hands together. Once you have them, you have them, and you MUST change something; the scar tissue becomes too thick to recover in most cases. Even if you get over the fear part, the technical issue has usually become too much to overcome, so a BIG change is in order.

 

2. The advantage of side saddle for a yipper is that you not only aren't trying to coordinate the two hands, but the right wrist is set in a "pre-broken" position; it just goes forward in a preset position. The only conventional grip I know of that does this to the same degree is the two-thumb grip, which is a really good way to putt conventionally even if you don't have the yips. But one of the things that convinced me to finally try side saddle after several years of thinking about it was watching a buddy who had played college golf and still hit it Tour distance at age 50 get to the point where he was about to quit the game because of the yips. In desperation, he took a Ping long putter and tried side saddle with it; he was better Day One, and is now a good putter again. Believe me, he was hopeless conventionally. Randy Haag tells a similar story about himself.

 

 

 

 

[Joe Duffer]

Does anyone know how static loft plays into the equation when hanging the shaft vertically?

When a putter with 3° of loft and a 75-80° lie angle is played in a vertical inclination, will the "aim" be affected?

[Rohlio]

> @J-Tizzle said:

> > @ncp10 said:

> > > @J-Tizzle said:

> > > And trust me, I always tell people the hardest part of SS putting is making sure your skin is thick enough when you play with new people. But all they have to see if a few putts falling and it shuts them up fairly quick.,

> >

> > Oh, no problem here w/ that--after having to deal with yips putting SS would require no thick skin at all!

> >

> >

>

> Yep, couldn't agree more. Now when getting ready to play if someone asks about it, my brother just says "trust me, its so much better than him with a short putter". Then if they don't believe him, I'll grab their putter, stab at a few 5ft putts and say "see".

 

"Have you always putted that way" --- random dude I get paired with on hole 2 tee box

 

"Nobody has always putted this way." ---- my response.

 

"Let me try that" random dude on hole 13 green.

[BigEx44]

> @"Joe Duffer" said:

> Does anyone know how static loft plays into the equation when hanging the shaft vertically?

> When a putter with 3° of loft and a 75-80° lie angle is played in a vertical inclination, will the "aim" be affected?

Yes. That's why if you're going to hold the club vertical - you need a SS with 0 degrees of loft.

 

[bluedot]

> @BigEx44 said:

> > @"Joe Duffer" said:

> > Does anyone know how static loft plays into the equation when hanging the shaft vertically?

> > When a putter with 3° of loft and a 75-80° lie angle is played in a vertical inclination, will the "aim" be affected?

> Yes. That's why if you're going to hold the club vertical - you need a SS with 0 degrees of loft.

>

 

Agreed, 100%.

 

I picked up a Cameron Kombi used long putter in Golf Galaxy one day and just rolled it great on the carpet in there, so of course, I bought it. Took it to the golf course and EVERY putt went right and short. Came home and checked the specs online and found out it was 4* of loft. Lesson learned...

[Joe Duffer]

> @BigEx44 said:

> > @"Joe Duffer" said:

> > Does anyone know how static loft plays into the equation when hanging the shaft vertically?

> > When a putter with 3° of loft and a 75-80° lie angle is played in a vertical inclination, will the "aim" be affected?

> Yes. That's why if you're going to hold the club vertical - you need a SS with 0 degrees of loft.

>

 

> @bluedot said:

> > @BigEx44 said:

> > > @"Joe Duffer" said:

> > > Does anyone know how static loft plays into the equation when hanging the shaft vertically?

> > > When a putter with 3° of loft and a 75-80° lie angle is played in a vertical inclination, will the "aim" be affected?

> > Yes. That's why if you're going to hold the club vertical - you need a SS with 0 degrees of loft.

> >

>

> Agreed, 100%.

>

> I picked up a Cameron Kombi used long putter in Golf Galaxy one day and just rolled it great on the carpet in there, so of course, I bought it. Took it to the golf course and EVERY putt went right and short. Came home and checked the specs online and found out it was 4* of loft. Lesson learned...

 

- Are putter makers taking this phenomenon into account when establishing the putter's loft and aim?

- If the putter is to be used/played with a vertical shaft, shouldn't the face's orientation (aim) and loft be established taking this into account?

- Wouldn't you still want a few degrees of loft even if you choose to hang the shaft vertically?

- Would it be conforming to align the loft of a putter to the "point of aim" when hung vertically?

 

 

[ncp10]

> @bluedot said:

> As to the yips and side saddle:

> 1. I believe with all my heart that the yips are first and foremost fear based, but are always accompanied by a technical issue as well.....The technical issue is the breakdown of the wrists, or a difficulty in releasing the clubhead by coordinating the action of the two hands together.

 

As a world class yipster I agree with fear of embarrassment as the ultimate source, which of course is a Mother of all Self-Fulfilling Prophecies, and why it is so exasperating. It's also apparently infectious as my best friend developed them too!

I was a fair putter most of my golfing life which began loosely at age 11y/o when my bro who was a GC teaching pro gave me my first set of Hogan forged juniors. Somewhere around 12-15y ago, after playing my home course all the time which had really wretched greens in terms of surface quality I began yipping. Besides my own neurophysiology I don't think this course helped! But this story aside fairly quickly I tried long putters and completely took any wrist and two-arm power out, but it didn't help in the slightest. For me it's powering w/ the right-side that seems to be the issue for me. This being said there are different muscles involved so we'll give it a try and see. If you've never personally experienced severe yips what happens ultimately to me is that immediately before the putter would make contact w/ the ball on the downswing all power goes out of the swing, then power is instantly re-added AT impact or maybe even just beyond--that appears to be what Snead did on the yip I referenced in the video. Left-handed completely got rid of this fear/yip and I've shot under par putting left handed in the past 3y and several even par rounds, but it's a struggle visually for me. It's nice to see at least some folks have gotten some freedom from yips w/ FO/SS putting and I hope I'm one. I hope to play nine holes in the morning w/ strangers and see how the Ping I bought works w/ regard to attenuating yipping. All I care to learn is if ride-sided action w/ that putter avoids the yip experience, if so I'll take this one back and buy probably the model off of ebay which is a bit of a no brainer w/ free RETURN shipping if you don't like it. There is yet another option, and that is FO putting LEFT HANDED. I just thought of that and it could be another work around.

[ncp10]

> @bluedot said:

Took it to the golf course and EVERY putt went right and short. Came home and checked the specs online and found out it was 4* of loft. Lesson learned...

 

Move your anchoring hand a little more forward, and/or ball position back a few inches and voila your 4 degrees of loft becomes 1-2.

 

 

[BigEx44]

> @"Joe Duffer" said:

> > @BigEx44 said:

> > > @"Joe Duffer" said:

> > > Does anyone know how static loft plays into the equation when hanging the shaft vertically?

> > > When a putter with 3° of loft and a 75-80° lie angle is played in a vertical inclination, will the "aim" be affected?

> > Yes. That's why if you're going to hold the club vertical - you need a SS with 0 degrees of loft.

> >

>

> > @bluedot said:

> > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > > @"Joe Duffer" said:

> > > > Does anyone know how static loft plays into the equation when hanging the shaft vertically?

> > > > When a putter with 3° of loft and a 75-80° lie angle is played in a vertical inclination, will the "aim" be affected?

> > > Yes. That's why if you're going to hold the club vertical - you need a SS with 0 degrees of loft.

> > >

> >

> > Agreed, 100%.

> >

> > I picked up a Cameron Kombi used long putter in Golf Galaxy one day and just rolled it great on the carpet in there, so of course, I bought it. Took it to the golf course and EVERY putt went right and short. Came home and checked the specs online and found out it was 4* of loft. Lesson learned...

>

>1. - Are putter makers taking this phenomenon into account when establishing the putter's loft and aim?

> 2.- If the putter is to be used/played with a vertical shaft, shouldn't the face's orientation (aim) and loft be established taking this into account?

> 3.- Wouldn't you still want a few degrees of loft even if you choose to hang the shaft vertically?

> 4.- Would it be conforming to align the loft of a putter to the "point of aim" when hung vertically?

>

>

1. Some are. GP putter for instance. Bobby Grace also. Not all though. And not everyone putts with the shaft vertical. Juan Elizondo, creator of the Juan SS Putter believes it is better to putt SS with the head soled.

2. Yep. See 1. above.

3. The more loft, the more the ball will go right. A little loft and the ball will go a little right. If the ball position is right, you will still hit up (get lift) o theball even with 0 degrees of loft.

4. I don't know the answer to this one. That would be a USGA question.

 

[ncp10]

> @BigEx44 said:

> 3. The more loft, the more the ball will go right. A little loft and the ball will go a little right. If the ball position is right, you will still hit up (get lift) o theball even with 0 degrees of loft.

 

I don't get it. The forward/backward lean of the putter impacts this such that if you have a putter w/ 3 degrees of loft if the top of the putter is leaning 2 degrees forward past plumb now your 3 degree loft has been reduced to less than 3 degrees. I would imagine skilled SS putters are going to be off of forward/backwards plumb a bit despite trying to standardize setup, no?

[bluedot]

> @ncp10 said:

> > @bluedot said:

> Took it to the golf course and EVERY putt went right and short. Came home and checked the specs online and found out it was 4* of loft. Lesson learned...

>

> Move your anchoring hand a little more forward, and/or ball position back a few inches and voila your 4 degrees of loft becomes 1-2.

>

>

 

Even if that's correct, which it may be, why in the world would I want to manipulate my hands to deloft a putter? There is a reason that putters made to putt this way have only a degree or less of loft.

[bluedot]

ncp10, I think the whole point of putting face on/side saddle is that you don't have to make "adjustments". You don't deal with parallax error in your vision. You don't deal with wrist break, or with coordinating/unifying two hands, or opening or closing your stance, holding your head still, or any of that stuff. You set up, your top hand is the fulcrum and you swing your bottom hand straight back and straight thru. Manipulating a putter to make it less lofted (or more, for that matter) just wouldn't help.

[deman77]

I think ncp10 is talking D plane. yes you can manipulate loft to get effective loft of zero so you can stand it upright without spoiling your aim. But be careful with any alignment aids on the head. They may get misaligned after you deloft - straight May actually look different if you look at your aid so best use head with no aids if you are doing this. Also the sweet spot may end up to high from the ground so you at be skulling it.

Since fixed left hand side saddle is extremely repeatable you can effectively adapt the putter you have to be stood fully upright but you need to have the technique right first to calibrate your putter set up and then have lots of tees stuck on perfectly flat green to launch between to try and figure it out. Since you are just starting up you will not know whether your misses are set up related or wrong technique. You need to work with the guy who understands side saddle well and would fit you into the one you would stand upright.

If you are trying to minimise your upfront cost of trial just accept the you will putt with a small arc - it’s very small, your brain will just adjust impact conditions.

You can also try the alternative face on method - more like a Snead style (someone posted a video of a lady doing it a few pages back) which does not have left hand as fulcrum but shoulder sockets. You can than use any lie putter and still get perfect arc - the mechanics as a bit less repeatable as both arms are moving. The advantage is instant distance control because it’s the same as underhand throw, but you can mess up the mechanics because left hand is not fixed. It’s distinctly different from fixed hand side saddle. Do not confuse the two.

[ncp10]

> @bluedot said:

> > @ncp10 said:

> Even if that's correct, which it may be, why in the world would I want to manipulate my hands to deloft a putter? There is a reason that putters made to putt this way have only a degree or less of loft.

 

Nonsense. No one said anything about manipulating your hands. Unless your set up is completely rigid and fixed it would be very easy to tilt the putter forward or backwards a few degrees.

 

 

[ncp10]

> @bluedot said:

Manipulating a putter...

The forward/backward angle is a function of EXACTLY where your left hand holds the end of the stick relative to where you position the ball period. With the slightest of adjustments, PERMANENTLY MADE, you effectively change the putter's fixed loft. So there is NO NEED to continue to manipulate anything to effect the loft you'd like to standardize. You simply adjust your setup to the putter you're using to offset too much/too little loft.

[ncp10]

> @deman77 said:

> I think ncp10 is talking D plane. yes you can manipulate loft to get effective loft of zero so you can stand it upright without spoiling your aim.

Indeed.

 

 

 

 

[ncp10]

> @bluedot said:

> ncp10, I think the whole point of putting face on/side saddle is that you don't have to make "adjustments". You don't deal with parallax error in your vision. You don't deal with wrist break, or with coordinating/unifying two hands, or opening or closing your stance, holding your head still, or any of that stuff.

 

No wrist break--agreed, as with other split-grip approaches. Parallax error associates with binocular vision. When I stand behind the ball to help determine my line it's stereopsis exploiting parallax that helps me sense distance. At this point I will have picked my line identifying a spot 3' out from the ball. When I now address the ball traditionally I rotate my head to look along my intended line to my spot and then beyond, and my dominant right eye...dominates, so there is effectively no two images to resolve, hence there is no parallax error--in fact ideally both my left and right eye are rotating on the same line the putt is on. And it is EASY for me to see the line this way all the way to the hole w/ my right eye. This is why I have a hard time 'seeing' the line putting left-handed, because I'm very right-eye dominant. Opening and closing stance? Holding head still? Perhaps unintentionally you paint a picture of a FO putter walking up willy nilly and just whacking it w/ no regard for setting up consistently (that would be 'any of that stuff'), keeping themselves stable, etc, which I know is nonsense. I think the method has promise for some, but as stated early on when ~100% of all tour players who earn their living and some very handsomely at this putt conventionally in terms of orientation the theoretical pluses for FO seems mostly theoretical. I think one looks for a method that works for their neurophysiology and one size will not fit all.

[ncp10]

I returned the Ping Pickemup and am deciding if I want to take the plunge on a trial of the ebay model for $109 with free return w/o paying for shipping. I can try it for a full 30d and by then I hopefully with know if it's worth the learning curve. If I can putt better, but most importantly, w/o yips, then I'll probably stay with it, unnatural as it feels.

 

 

[bluedot]

> @ncp10 said:

> > @bluedot said:

> > > @ncp10 said:

> > Even if that's correct, which it may be, why in the world would I want to manipulate my hands to deloft a putter? There is a reason that putters made to putt this way have only a degree or less of loft.

>

> Nonsense. No one said anything about manipulating your hands. Unless your set up is completely rigid and fixed it would be very easy to tilt the putter forward or backwards a few degrees.

>

>

 

Right; I can "tilt" any club in my bag to add or subtract loft. But just because I can doesn't mean I should, especially when I putt. Why in the world would I want to do that? I want to roll the ball the same way every single time, and I can only do that with the correct loft, ball position, posture, hand position and all the rest. I'm not trying to make it up as I go; I practiced for about 40 minutes today before I played for just that reason.

 

And so yes, my setup IS "completely rigid and fixed". Same ball position, same stance, same knee flex, same hand position, everything. Why would I do it otherwise? What instructor of ANY type of putting recommends manipulating the loft on a putter, as opposed to having the correct loft for YOUR stroke? And by consensus, the correct loft for a face on putter is less than a conventional putter, usually only a degree or a degree and a half.

 

And if I'm not mistaken, and I'm not, YOU were the one that said "Move your anchoring hand a little more forward" as a means of delofting the putter. I love discussing face on putting and putters; I don't especially like having people write "Nonsense" when I respond in good faith to what YOU wrote. You really might want to dial that back a bit. I'll not respond to anything else that you write on this thread or anywhere else; I've had enough.

[ncp10]

Your putter is fixed and rigid, and of course YOU create a stable repeatable platform and because you aren't fixed and rigid you can set up ANY WAY YOU CHOOSE, this was my point re loft. IOW, 1-2-3 degrees of loft CAN EASILY be adapted to consistently by modifying your setup. My sense is you like to pontificate more than discuss and if someone challenges what you say you then get offended. Sounds good please don't respond to anything else I write here or elsewhere.

[br61]

> @J-Tizzle said:

> > @ncp10 said:

> > > @J-Tizzle said:

> > > And trust me, I always tell people the hardest part of SS putting is making sure your skin is thick enough when you play with new people. But all they have to see if a few putts falling and it shuts them up fairly quick.,

> >

> > Oh, no problem here w/ that--after having to deal with yips putting SS would require no thick skin at all!

> >

> >

>

> Yep, couldn't agree more. Now when getting ready to play if someone asks about it, my brother just says "trust me, its so much better than him with a short putter". Then if they don't believe him, I'll grab their putter, stab at a few 5ft putts and say "see".

 

Your brother got that right! :smiley:

 

I'm still using that LFI putter that I bought from you and it has been a very consistent putter for me. Right now, I'm using it as unanchored long putter but I've practiced with it using SS stroke on putting clock. I need more time to get the hang of it, mostly on distance control.

 

I would term my yips more of some kind of focal dystonia, I'm lefty but golf righthanded. I cannot keep my hands steady while hovering the club or putter, bunker shots can be he!!, my father has same thing so I guess I've got it.

 

I believe that anyone that does not have the yips are not qualified to tell others how to fix their yips. One has to experience it to know what it is like. Many golfers can overcome it but in my instance, probably not but it will not prevent me from enjoying golf. I will do SS/FO putting sometime soon.

 

I enjoy reading this thread.

 

[ncp10]

> @br61 said:

> I believe that anyone that does not have the yips are not qualified to tell others how to fix their yips. One has to experience it to know what it is like.

I have world class yips off and on, mostly on whenever I putt right-handed though it's minimized some when I split my grip. Can relate to this?: during the downswing there is a slight hesitation immediately before perceived impact...then at impact power is resumed. That's how it feels to me. I'm having a little luck now w/ following Steve Stricker's ideas on this and while he's not a yipper his method *should* help at least prevent yipping from starting and may ultimately help.

 

 

[Joe Duffer]

> @ncp10 said:

> Your putter is fixed and rigid, and of course YOU create a stable repeatable platform and because you aren't fixed and rigid you can set up ANY WAY YOU CHOOSE, this was my point re loft. IOW, 1-2-3 degrees of loft CAN EASILY be adapted to consistently by modifying your setup. My sense is you like to pontificate more than discuss and if someone challenges what you say you then get offended. Sounds good please don't respond to anything else I write here or elsewhere.

 

- The putter is **NOT** "Fixed or Rigid" at address! - **ALL** of the truly good SS/FO I've known or watched hang the shaft vertically at address.

 

- When you're hanging or have the putter lightly soled or "tapping" the green's surface at address, it's virtually impossible to "manipulate the putter to make it less lofted (or more, for that matter).

 

- **Buy a putter that's set up properly, to begin with!** The concept here is to develop a simple and repeatable routine...

 

BTW, the word "nonsense" was a poor choice. IMO, you owe **bluedot** an apology...