match play handicap question

[bbthorn]

My question is if a 5 is playing against a 9, do both players play with their strokes or are you to subtract the 5 from the 9 and give the 9 4 strokes

[Stuart_G]

For match play, you play off of the low handicap player so the 9 would get 4 strokes and the 5 would play at scratch.

[url="http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14387"]http://www.usga.org/...tml#!rule-14387[/url]

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1438792608' post='12083464']
For match play, you play off of the low handicap player so the 9 would get 4 strokes and the 5 would play at scratch.

[url="http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14387"]http://www.usga.org/...tml#!rule-14387[/url]
[/quote]

Stuart, I know that the USGA's Handicap Manual makes it clear that you are correct on this. What I don't know is that if other handicapping authorities within the R&A world consistently agree with it. I would hope so, but don't know.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1438795238' post='12083780']
Stuart, I know that the USGA's Handicap Manual makes it clear that you are correct on this. What I don't know is that if other handicapping authorities within the R&A world consistently agree with it. I would hope so, but don't know.
[/quote]

Which is one of the main reasons I posted the link to the USGA web site - so the source for the answer would be clear.

[bbthorn]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1438792608' post='12083464']
For match play, you play off of the low handicap player so the 9 would get 4 strokes and the 5 would play at scratch.

[url="http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14387"]http://www.usga.org/...tml#!rule-14387[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks, that's what I thought. I looked, but wads obviously using the wrong search criteria.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1438795340' post='12083790']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1438795238' post='12083780']
Stuart, I know that the USGA's Handicap Manual makes it clear that you are correct on this. What I don't know is that if other handicapping authorities within the R&A world consistently agree with it. I would hope so, but don't know.
[/quote]

Which is one of the main reasons I posted the link to the USGA web site - so the source for the answer would be clear.
[/quote]

I understood and respect your effort. But I'm still curious as to whether the practice is universal. Logic suggests that it should be -- leaving the hole(s) with the most differential between a bogey and scratch golfer's ability to be the hole(s) upon which the actual difference in handicap strokes is awarded. (Otherwise the #1 handicap hole would almost never be one where different handicap allotments were actually put into action.)

[DaveLeeNC]

A general comment. First it is correct that the USGA recommends (or requires or ...) that you subtract the two handicaps and give the difference to the higher course handicap golfer. And the quintessential example is the one where two golfers have course handicaps that are one stroke apart - the question being "which hole does the higher CH golfer get a stroke".

What is interesting is that this question should be based on analysis of the scoring differentials on each hole of the course for (roughly) EQUALLY matched golfers. But that is not the recommended hole handicap procedure (which states that you look at the scoring differentials, by hole, for very UNEQUALLY matched golfers).

What the existing recommendation for hole handicapping actually does directly is to answer a different question which is "if two golfers have CH's that are 17 strokes apart, which hole does the higher CH golfer NOT get a stroke". I don't think it is a big deal, but (being a numbers guy) I find it interesting.

dave

[Newby]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1438795238' post='12083780']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1438792608' post='12083464']
For match play, you play off of the low handicap player so the 9 would get 4 strokes and the 5 would play at scratch.

[url="http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14387"]http://www.usga.org/...tml#!rule-14387[/url]
[/quote]

I know that the USGA's Handicap Manual makes it clear that you are correct on this. What I don't know is that if other handicapping authorities within the R&A world consistently agree with it. I would hope so, but don't know.
[/quote]

It is the same in CONGU and EGA

Incidentally, just to remind you , there are golfing authorities in the R&A world that use the USGA handicapping system (eg Canada).
The R&A itself does not get involved in handicapping

[QEight]

Just to confirm from EGA HC manual

[quote]Match Play Handicap strokes to be taken according to the handicap stroke index, see clause 3.9.7.

Singles: The player with the higher handicap receives the full difference between the playing handicaps of the two players.

Foursomes: The side with the higher sum of the playing handicaps of the partners receives 50 % of the full difference between the aggregate handicap of each side (0.5 is rounded upwards). Example: Players A (playing handicap 11) and B (playing handicap 18) play a foursomes match against Players C (playing handicap 6) and D (playing handicap 12) A and B receive: 50% x [(11 + 18) − (6 + 12)] = 50% x (29 − 18) = 50% x 11 = 5.5  rounded upwards 6 strokes Note: In mixed foursomes match play, handicap strokes are taken as assigned on the handicap stroke index for men.

Four-ball (Better-ball): The player with the lowest playing handicap, who must play off scratch, must concede handicap strokes to the three other players based on 90 % of the difference between the playing handicaps. Note: In mixed four-ball match play, handicap strokes are taken as assigned on the player’s respective handicap stroke indices.

Greensomes: The partner with the lower playing handicap receives 60 % of his playing handicap and the partner with the higher playing handicap receives 40% of his playing handicap. Both figures are added before rounding. The final figure (= the playing handicap of the side) is rounded (0.5 upwards). The side with the higher playing handicap receives the full difference between the handicaps of the two sides. If, in the above formats, players play from different tees with a different Par, see section 1 in this Appendix.
[/quote]

[MrJones]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1438813478' post='12085474']
I understood and respect your effort. But I'm still curious as to whether the practice is universal. Logic suggests that it should be -- leaving the hole(s) with the most differential between a bogey and scratch golfer's ability to be the hole(s) upon which the actual difference in handicap strokes is awarded. (Otherwise the #1 handicap hole would almost never be one where different handicap allotments were actually put into action.)
[/quote]


My partners and I have had this discussion multiple times. The best I've been able to determine is that in a scenario like what you've described, the handicap system is designed to give the 9 handicap the advantage on the 5 cappers hardest holes. It then assumes the 5 capper will have the advantage on those last 4 holes where the 9 capper would normally need the strokes.

But just because I'm a 9 capper doesn't mean I bogey the 9 hardest holes. And so it seems like the high capper always ends up with the advantage in the match.

What our club does, and what we do is, subtract 20% from everyone's handicap. A 5 would become a 4 and the 9 would become a 7 (yes we pull out phone calculators and round up or down ). From there the 4 would be scratch and the 7 would only get 3 strokes.

We've played multiple matches with various teams of various handicaps (from an actual scratch up to a 16) and have been really surprised how most of the matches turn out evenly. It's got to be a really bad day for a team to lose by more than a couple of strokes.

[QEight]

[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1438858367' post='12088154']
What our club does, and what we do is, subtract 20% from everyone's handicap. A 5 would become a 4 and the 9 would become a 7 (yes we pull out phone calculators and round up or down ). From there the 4 would be scratch and the 7 would only get 3 strokes.

We've played multiple matches with various teams of various handicaps (from an actual scratch up to a 16) and have been really surprised how most of the matches turn out evenly. It's got to be a really bad day for a team to lose by more than a couple of strokes.
[/quote]

What kind of team matches? As you notice from the quote I posted, EGA uses partial HC's.

[MrJones]

[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1438858834' post='12088190']
[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1438858367' post='12088154']
What our club does, and what we do is, subtract 20% from everyone's handicap. A 5 would become a 4 and the 9 would become a 7 (yes we pull out phone calculators and round up or down ). From there the 4 would be scratch and the 7 would only get 3 strokes.

We've played multiple matches with various teams of various handicaps (from an actual scratch up to a 16) and have been really surprised how most of the matches turn out evenly. It's got to be a really bad day for a team to lose by more than a couple of strokes.
[/quote]

What kind of team matches? As you notice from the quote I posted, EGA uses partial HC's.
[/quote]

Our team matches are really simple thrown together teams (2 on 2, 3 on 3, or sometimes 3 on 2) and the game we play is stroke play best ball. Each hole is a "dot" with goodies being an additional dot and carry overs. Just your weekend bet type matches, nothing official. We do play by the rules though (everything down, all penalties taken).

Occasionally we'll play match play front, back, and overall to just mix things up.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1438860406' post='12088246']
[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1438858834' post='12088190']
[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1438858367' post='12088154']
What our club does, and what we do is, subtract 20% from everyone's handicap. A 5 would become a 4 and the 9 would become a 7 (yes we pull out phone calculators and round up or down ). From there the 4 would be scratch and the 7 would only get 3 strokes.

We've played multiple matches with various teams of various handicaps (from an actual scratch up to a 16) and have been really surprised how most of the matches turn out evenly. It's got to be a really bad day for a team to lose by more than a couple of strokes.
[/quote]

What kind of team matches? As you notice from the quote I posted, EGA uses partial HC's.
[/quote]

Our [b]team matches are[/b] really simple thrown together teams (2 on 2, 3 on 3, or sometimes 3 on 2) and the game we play is [b]stroke play best ball[/b].
[/quote]

I'm afraid you lost me now.

So you play matches with stroke play Rules or what?

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1438858367' post='12088154']
My partners and I have had this discussion multiple times. The best I've been able to determine is that in a scenario like what you've described, the handicap system is designed to give the 9 handicap the advantage on the 5 cappers hardest holes. It then assumes the 5 capper will have the advantage on those last 4 holes where the 9 capper would normally need the strokes.

But just because I'm a 9 capper doesn't mean I bogey the 9 hardest holes. [b]And so it seems like the high capper always ends up with the advantage in the match.[/b]

[/quote]

It depends.

If both players play their net par on every hole the match is A/S all the time. So the outcome of the match depends how often one playes his net result better than his opponent. This can happen on any hole.

Also it depends on which holes the strokes are received/given. If you have 4 strokes and you get 2 of them on the last 2 holes you have a good chance to win if you survive that far. And vice versa, you'd better play well to survive until the last 2 holes.

Furthermore, if the match is A/S after 18 holes there is a big meaning if one receives a stroke on the first play-off hole. This is the case on both of our courses at my home club. That as well as my previous example clearly shows the necessity of having actual Match Play indeces on the holes instead of Stroke Play indeces (= based on the relative difficulty of the holes).

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1438862868' post='12088426']
[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1438860406' post='12088246']
[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1438858834' post='12088190']
[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1438858367' post='12088154']
What our club does, and what we do is, subtract 20% from everyone's handicap. A 5 would become a 4 and the 9 would become a 7 (yes we pull out phone calculators and round up or down ). From there the 4 would be scratch and the 7 would only get 3 strokes.

We've played multiple matches with various teams of various handicaps (from an actual scratch up to a 16) and have been really surprised how most of the matches turn out evenly. It's got to be a really bad day for a team to lose by more than a couple of strokes.
[/quote]

What kind of team matches? As you notice from the quote I posted, EGA uses partial HC's.
[/quote]

Our [b]team matches are[/b] really simple thrown together teams (2 on 2, 3 on 3, or sometimes 3 on 2) and the game we play is [b]stroke play best ball[/b].
[/quote]

I'm afraid you lost me now.

So you play matches with stroke play Rules or what?
[/quote]

I've played in semi-formal individual stroke play competitions while simultaneously (very modestly) betting (not playing) four-ball match play with my group. "Partners" refrain from helping each other via advice, we score as if partners are outside agencies (hitting your "partner's equipment is irrelevant) , no putts are conceded etc. That seems to me to be an acceptable way to play but since you bring it up I am curious as to others' views on that topic.

Do people agree that playing by the ROG and betting are two different things?

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1438863651' post='12088484']
I've played in semi-formal individual stroke play competitions while simultaneously (very modestly) betting (not playing) four-ball match play with my group. "Partners" refrain from helping each other via advice, we score as if partners are outside agencies (hitting your "partner's equipment is irrelevant) , no putts are conceded etc. That seems to me to be an acceptable way to play but since you bring it up I am curious at to others' views on that topic.

Do people agree that playing by the ROG and betting are two different things?
[/quote]

There is a very clear-cut view on this in the Rules. It says you cannot combine Stroke Play with Match Play. Nothing to do with betting, IMO. You can bet whatever you want but you need to choose the Rules you play by.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1438863761' post='12088492']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1438863651' post='12088484']
I've played in semi-formal individual stroke play competitions while simultaneously (very modestly) betting (not playing) four-ball match play with my group. "Partners" refrain from helping each other via advice, we score as if partners are outside agencies (hitting your "partner's equipment is irrelevant) , no putts are conceded etc. That seems to me to be an acceptable way to play but since you bring it up I am curious at to others' views on that topic.

Do people agree that playing by the ROG and betting are two different things?
[/quote]

There is a very clear-cut view on this in the Rules. It says you cannot combine Stroke Play with Match Play. Nothing to do with betting, IMO. You can bet whatever you want but you need to choose the Rules you play by.
[/quote]

But we've religiously chosen to play by stroke play Rules. Is it your view that a private exchange of two dollars over what already happened if it were a match (after reviewing stroke play hole-by-hole scoring goes) constitutes illegally playing a match?

It doesn't seem to me that this is covered in the Rules (though clearly "playing" both formats at the same time is covered with harsh results).

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1438864308' post='12088524']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1438863761' post='12088492']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1438863651' post='12088484']
I've played in semi-formal individual stroke play competitions while simultaneously (very modestly) betting (not playing) four-ball match play with my group. "Partners" refrain from helping each other via advice, we score as if partners are outside agencies (hitting your "partner's equipment is irrelevant) , no putts are conceded etc. That seems to me to be an acceptable way to play but since you bring it up I am curious at to others' views on that topic.

Do people agree that playing by the ROG and betting are two different things?
[/quote]

There is a very clear-cut view on this in the Rules. It says you cannot combine Stroke Play with Match Play. Nothing to do with betting, IMO. You can bet whatever you want but you need to choose the Rules you play by.
[/quote]

But we've religiously chosen to play by stroke play Rules. Is it your view that a private exchange of two dollars over what already happened if it were a match (after reviewing stroke play hole-by-hole scoring goes) constitutes illegally playing a match?

It doesn't seem to me that this is covered in the Rules (though clearly "playing" both formats at the same time is covered with harsh results).
[/quote]

No, I do not mean that. Once you choose the format you play and stick to it you may do whatever you want with the outcome.

[MrJones]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1438862868' post='12088426']
[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1438860406' post='12088246']
[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1438858834' post='12088190']
[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1438858367' post='12088154']
What our club does, and what we do is, subtract 20% from everyone's handicap. A 5 would become a 4 and the 9 would become a 7 (yes we pull out phone calculators and round up or down ). From there the 4 would be scratch and the 7 would only get 3 strokes.

We've played multiple matches with various teams of various handicaps (from an actual scratch up to a 16) and have been really surprised how most of the matches turn out evenly. It's got to be a really bad day for a team to lose by more than a couple of strokes.
[/quote]

What kind of team matches? As you notice from the quote I posted, EGA uses partial HC's.
[/quote]

Our [b]team matches are[/b] really simple thrown together teams (2 on 2, 3 on 3, or sometimes 3 on 2) and the game we play is [b]stroke play best ball[/b].
[/quote]

I'm afraid you lost me now.

So you play matches with stroke play Rules or what?
[/quote]

I'm probably making it more confusing because I didn't understand exactly what you were asking the first time.

Our game is that everyone plays their own ball. Just like a stroke play event. The overall best score on a hole for a team is what counts towards the bet. Otherwise the scorecard is filled out like a normal stroke play event. We mark the scorecard before hand with indications on what holes each individual player gets a stroke, per how we use the handicap system. But the actual written down score will reflect what was actually scored on the hole. Exactly the same for match play, just with the match standing kept off to the side.

For all intents and purposes, we're just a group of guys out there playing a normal round of golf by the rules. And we adhere also to the rules concerning helping a partner. The scorecard gets turned in with actual scores, nothing adjusted. We just keep up with the bet on the side.

The exception being that because we play year round and in some wet, muddy conditions, we will sometimes agree on the first tee to play lift clean place EVERYWHERE. In those cases we keep the score just like always but don't turn it in.