Mike Malaska - Getting the club in front of you. Made easy...

[tthomasgolfer605]

[mwkbmw]

^^^^^ Well, I wondered who would kill this thread. After 30+ years of riding the roller coaster/merry-go-round of conflicting golf instruction, I stumbled upon Malaska's videos and finally experienced the "feel" of a proper downswing and release. Just for kicks, I read the entire thread to see what others thought. The further I got into it, the suspense started building making me wonder who or what would blow the thread up in typical GolfWRX fashion.

After so many years of conventional, "Hold the lag", "Drag the handle", "Fire the hips" and a GolfTEC experience, (which has clouded my mind with so many swing thoughts and positions that my handicap has skyrocketed since), I find MM to be a breath of fresh air. His way of making the swing simple again has given me hope after a long, dark spell of multiple swing thoughts. Doing this drill in front of a mirror revealed to me just how powerful and on plane the club is coming into the ball. No more high hands and manipulations to square the face.

I just don't understand why "know-it-alls" have to try and ruin something that obviously works for many people. If it really is such horrible teaching, it will gain no traction and die out. I have read many posts where people stated that they had success with it, but still abandoned it after a while. So, don't you think that golfers, fickle bunch that we are, would abandon something that gave terrible results?

Why can't some people just live and let live? The negativity on this site keeps me from frequenting it more than a fraction of the time I used to. But, that's our society nowadays. One of the down sides of the Internet, I guess.

[coops]

Don't take it too seriously - you can reasonably assume that anyone who spouts the "Not one great player kept the club in front of them" line of argument to Malaska's shaft tip/stand the club up FEEL hasn't paid any attention to the videos where he explains it.

Previously, I've seen the 'idea' but not watched his video explanation... and I too just dismissed it out of hand as noone actually does it - which Malaska himself points out. @sigh@

However, stumbling upon his cure for chipping woes explanation and realising his explanation of the cause was exactly my issue and lack of understanding of how 'get left' or 'stay left' - well, then I ended up watching his club tip idea and realising its merits.

Mind you... I've not read through the whole of this thread (!), I mean 43 pages?

 

So to anyone else stumbling on this it may help to re insert the basic explanation by Malaska again here

 

and here's the in depth, over half hour explanation.

 

Anyone who still thinks Malaska is expecting you to actually stand the club up, after watching even the sub 4 minute video... well, you may as well argue with the Flat Earth brigade.

[indianagolf2]

 

[liquorandpoker]

The Malaska videos have changed my game for the better!

 

For 20 years I played golf hovering between 2-10 handicap.  I spent most of that focused on trying to drive my swing w. my body and ignoring my hands.  My most frequent miss was a pull (as you might guess from my swing focus above).

 

I took 5 years off and started playing again last summer.  I couldn't find a way to my past successes and started down the youtube instructional video superhighway.  I was just floundering around madly in search of answers.  

 

Malaska concepts of directing momentum of the club and letting the body respond (including the hand motion from the top) made instinctive sense to me in a way that a body driven swing never did.  Within a range session or two I was producing well struck shots with boring trajectories and a natural baby draw AND IT FELT MORE EFFORTLESS THAN ANY SWING I HAD EVER EXPERIENCED!!

 

I've taken it to the course and my handicap dropped from 13 to 6 within 6-8 weeks.  My scores keep getting better all the time.  But just as importantly, I have high confidence that I will make good contact with the ball and hit close to target.  I've never felt more in control of the golf ball.

 

To me the big change FEELS LIKE my back stays to target as my hands drop the club tips out - from there I just turn as hard as I like.  The club feels outside my hands and the entire package feels in front of my body.  My golf swing never felt like that in the past.  Before it was always some combo of weight shift, hip slide, hip turn, handle drag, shoulder turn.  

 

Anyhow - just thought it might be worth sharing another success story.

[liquorandpoker]

Quick update on post above, as I believe he deserves the props (and it might help others)

 

Six months later - handicap at 2.1.

So that's 8 months to go from 13 to 2

 

Occasional moves away from Malaska stuff lead to poor ball striking + frustrations.  

 

To be perfectly fair - some of the drop from 6 to 2 was chipping and pitching work - where I also used Malaska video instruction to guide me

[liquorandpoker]

On 1/7/2017 at 8:36 AM, Pinsplitter59 said:

what Duval was talking about is nothing like what Malaska is talking about.

This Malaska thing is probably the worst piece of golf swing advice i have ever seen/heard.

Been wanting to say that for a while because you guys are really wasting your time and effort.

 

Amazing.  Every word of what you just said was wrong.

[liquorandpoker]

Update:

Just shot par on course I played for first time.

 

HC at 1 from ~16

 

Thanks Mr. Malaska!

 

 

[parmark]

On 10/15/2021 at 7:39 AM, liquorandpoker said:

Quick update on post above, as I believe he deserves the props (and it might help others)

 

Six months later - handicap at 2.1.

So that's 8 months to go from 13 to 2

 

Occasional moves away from Malaska stuff lead to poor ball striking + frustrations.  

 

To be perfectly fair - some of the drop from 6 to 2 was chipping and pitching work - where I also used Malaska video instruction to guide me

Hi Liquor Dude

I am also a paid member of MM's web site. Could I ask you to post or direct me to the chipping & Pitching video's you speak of here. DM me if need be.

Thanks for sharing and congrats on success. Excited once snow melts here in Midwest to give this a try. Hitting inside net sessions and simulators so far so good.

Edited February 1, 2022 by parmark

[liquorandpoker]

1 hour ago, parmark said:

Hi Liquor Dude

I am also a paid member of MM's web site. Could I ask you to post or direct me to the chipping & Pitching video's you speak of here. DM me if need be.

Thanks for sharing and congrats on success. Excited once snow melts here in Midwest to give this a try. Hitting inside net sessions and simulators so far so good.

Hi there ParMark.  Here are a few.  Good luck!

 

For me it is in essence like chipping right hand only with the slap type release and straight along the target line.  Hope this helps!  Please update w progress.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE-KcPNkoZI

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCub0Uuk8kY

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQpszQu3sRQ

[MMB1500]

Reviving an old thread.

 

Genuine question: is this how to get the club out in front of you? 

 

Note: I come seeking knowledge, not conflict. 

 

 

Edited April 4 by MMB1500

[Nard_S]

21 hours ago, MMB1500 said:

Reviving an old thread.

 

Genuine question: is this how to get the club out in front of you? 

 

Note: I come seeking knowledge, not conflict. 

 

 

Simple answer is yes & no. That entire video is a good primer and a key thing he says is he's trying to "get hands to knees as fast as possible". Because it's really the proportional relationship of hand drop to body turn that makes getting arms in front possible, it's not that you bring hands to ball, you bring them down sooner. In this clip the featured thing is right arm unfold. The tentacles of this failing go all the way back to setup and how you get to top and how you do transition. The transition one might do, leaving arms behind, then stalling body rotation for the catch up, doesn't work with this, nor does a hip pivot that's out of whack, so there's enough things changing and getting this automatic is not 3 range sessions or even 3 months. Probably the most positive tweak of swing I ever worked with.

[Jeselnik]

On 4/4/2024 at 2:19 PM, MMB1500 said:

Reviving an old thread.

 

Genuine question: is this how to get the club out in front of you? 

 

Note: I come seeking knowledge, not conflict. 

 

 

Yes, release of the accumulators.  Mystery of the golf swing fades away when right arm participation is understood.

 

JNIK

 

JNIK

[PedronNiall]

On 3/19/2021 at 2:32 PM, liquorandpoker said:

Malaska concepts of directing momentum of the club and letting the body respond (including the hand motion from the top)

 

Anyone have specific videos where this is discussed? I'm assuming it's referring to another feel to seek vs actual execution but interested to see the info. 

 

Watching some of the above I do see issues. In the longer video on the move he discusses that gravity will get the club down and there's no need to help it, but we know from MacKinzie's very detailed traces that gravity is a tiny, tiny part of the force acting on the club in any part of the downswing. We also know from 3D and 2D along with additional context from plates that the body movement & pressure shift of the downswing begin while the club is still traveling up & away from the player in elite swings. There's no means of directing the momentum of the club with the hands/arms and letting the body respond when the club is in fact responding to what the body has already begun to do, which then flows through the kinetic chain via the shoulders & arms out to the club via the hands. 

 

The club going down and the player directing the momentum as it does is only going to happen in a very passive swing that generates a fraction of the force the body is capable of. A high level player's swing will only be passive in regard to the level of unhinging of the wrists into impact, and that's certainly not an example of the entire body responding to the momentum of the club or to gravity "getting the club down" as in the clip above. 

 

Awesome in every way if Malaska can talk in feels that many players can grasp and use to improve but some of what he says just does not align with the data or physics. 

[Hilts1969]

14 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Anyone have specific videos where this is discussed? I'm assuming it's referring to another feel to seek vs actual execution but interested to see the info. 

 

Watching some of the above I do see issues. In the longer video on the move he discusses that gravity will get the club down and there's no need to help it, but we know from MacKinzie's very detailed traces that gravity is a tiny, tiny part of the force acting on the club in any part of the downswing. We also know from 3D and 2D along with additional context from plates that the body movement & pressure shift of the downswing begin while the club is still traveling up & away from the player in elite swings. There's no means of directing the momentum of the club with the hands/arms and letting the body respond when the club is in fact responding to what the body has already begun to do, which then flows through the kinetic chain via the shoulders & arms out to the club via the hands. 

 

The club going down and the player directing the momentum as it does is only going to happen in a very passive swing that generates a fraction of the force the body is capable of. A high level player's swing will only be passive in regard to the level of unhinging of the wrists into impact, and that's certainly not an example of the entire body responding to the momentum of the club or to gravity "getting the club down" as in the clip above. 

 

Awesome in every way if Malaska can talk in feels that many players can grasp and use to improve but some of what he says just does not align with the data or physics. 

 

If your club just followed the movement of the body you would never hit the ball.  The arms must change the momentum if the club, its vital in any golf swing.

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

If your club just followed the movement of the body you would never hit the ball.  The arms must change the momentum if the club, its vital in any golf swing.

 

The arms do indeed change the path of the club which I stated clearly in my post, but they don't do so first followed by the body responding to the club's change in momentum. Show me examples of swings that are recommended as models where the downswing begins with the arms followed by the body.

 

You did a very poor job of responding to the details of swing dynamics I referenced or even addressing what I actually said.

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

 

The arms do indeed change the path of the club which I stated clearly in my post, but they don't do so first followed by the body responding to the club's change in momentum. Show me examples of swings that are recommended as models where the downswing begins with the arms followed by the body.

 

You did a very poor job of responding to the details of swing dynamics I referenced or even addressing what I actually said.

The sequencing is the same, the amplitude of arm speed changes to earlier and reaching of peak hand speed is earlier. It 's the proportionality of things and their triggers. The sequencing just gets crunched.That's the hard part.

 

[Hilts1969]

4 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

The arms do indeed change the path of the club which I stated clearly in my post, but they don't do so first followed by the body responding to the club's change in momentum. Show me examples of swings that are recommended as models where the downswing begins with the arms followed by the body.

 

You did a very poor job of responding to the details of swing dynamics I referenced or even addressing what I actually said.

 

They start at pretty much the same time certainly not within a time frame that is possible to actively separate. But as the golf swing is one fluid motion rather than a backswing then downswing  stating the body starts the downswing is folly. 

[KMeloney]

On 4/4/2024 at 2:19 PM, MMB1500 said:

Genuine question: is this how to get the club out in front of you?

 

 

 

All I can ever see in this video (and get from the "Malaska move") is the club head "kicking out" over the hand plane. The club shaft steepens (from down the line). He appears to be "tumbling" the club, like Manzella says is present in all good swings (I think he says that). In my mind, it is the exact opposite of the move of laying the club down behind you and/or casting the club to 8:00.

 

...But since it seems like the opposite of plenty of other teachings, I'm very interested in hearing more about it. Like so many other aspects of the golf swing, maybe this move/look is something that under plane/stuck players need more of, and OTT/flying right elbow/flippers need less of, and that it's not a "one size fits all" move.

[Nard_S]

14 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

..But since it seems like the opposite of plenty of other teachings, I'm very interested in hearing more about it. Like so many other aspects of the golf swing, maybe this move/look is something that under plane/stuck players need more of, and OTT/flying right elbow/flippers need less of, and that it's not a "one size fits all" move.

Stand with a mirror in DTL position, go to top, drop & unfold arms and it's easily seen things go under plane. You get shallow by dropping arms earlier. The trick is blending moves of arm dop & the pivoting properly. The failure can go both ways. For example you drop faster but you still turn back too soon, you get stuck or you dop fast but high tendency is to lose depth by throwing down out towards ball and target. Drop with back to target and holding hands at their depth away from target line. the Tiger video and the Justin Rose drills are symbolic intents. At full speed the net is not the same as demonstrated.

[Nard_S]

For me, the reason this is so difficult to put to good use is i went from being steep early with arms and then going shallower with body. This move is the opposite, Shallow club earlier, steepen late but also steepen the body. Increase the body angles with left tilt that is longer & things are more flexed. Complete 180 to decades of swinging. It' ends up going very deep in details. It ends up that my swing now is more focused on levering in the planes of the vertical & depth more. Easy to put too much emphasis on the horizontal forces in swing that are in direction of ball launch. When you watch pro swings with irons you how their disposition is more downhill, working more in the vertical and depth rather than aligning force with ball flight. This is hard to convert to for someone like me. But it works, I gained full club and I'm probably physically the weakest i've ever been. It's much more efficient.

[KMeloney]

22 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

the Tiger video and the Justin Rose drills are symbolic intents. At full speed the net is not the same as demonstrated.

 

Are they just symbolic intents, or actual intents that, at full speed, don't produce the same amount of above-the-hands club plane delta as the Tiger video suggests? In the Tiger vid, you really see it. Is the "kick out/tumble" move part of all good swings, but it's just hard to see at full-speed?

 

To be clear, putting the Tiger vid intent in my swing feels VERY different from what I do without the intent. But, I have a pretty strong right hand grip, and like anything else I can be over-doing it, or too soon, or not with good sequencing, and I can hit the ball pretty left. Then again, when my ballstriking (which has never been awesome) goes off the rails, I can probably attribute at least some of it to having absolutely NO inkling of this move in my swing, or even going further opposite of it.

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

Are they just symbolic intents, or actual intents that, at full speed, don't produce the same amount of above-the-hands club plane delta as the Tiger video suggests? In the Tiger vid, you really see it. Is the "kick out/tumble" move part of all good swings, but it's just hard to see at full-speed?

They are symbolic in that they represent intents. Justin Rose even says as much because at full speed the net path is different. Tiger has always been at or even a bit above plane. That never really changed but his emphasis on where power was allocated or directed did. I personally think the JR drill is a better avenue to explore this.

 

To your 2nd part, you need to know where you're at to arrive at where you're going. That is the most difficult aspect, where good instruction puts you in fast lane and keeps you off dead ends. Do you go left because of strong grip? I don't know, there's several reasons why that could happen, there's several reasons why the strong position aids what your doing now. Several reasons I miss left and I've always been hand neutral. Change one thing you, it affects others. There's no shortcut to automating better moves but there's smarter & dumber ways to go about it. I went dumber but persevered. Keep in mind Tiger took 18 months to reconfigure his swing and it was his job, he was near best in world and he had a teacher that was decades ahead of his peers.

[PedronNiall]

On 4/6/2024 at 6:06 PM, Hilts1969 said:

 

They start at pretty much the same time certainly not within a time frame that is possible to actively separate. But as the golf swing is one fluid motion rather than a backswing then downswing  stating the body starts the downswing is folly. 

 

However fluid it might be we still discuss the swing as elements to understand what's going on and how to adjust when things are off. You're just being disingenuous with that tact. Those who have responded have yet to address the fact that the body begins its pressure shift back towards the ball while the hands and arms are still moving upward. I asked for a simple explanation as to how one would direct the momentum of the club and let the body react when we know that is the case. 

 

I also asked for an explanation around the claim in the full length video that the club will come down due to gravity when we know gravity is a minute part of the forces acting on the club as it moves back towards and into the ball in any competent swing.

 

I'm not sure why there are all these attempts to deflect instead of answering simple asks. I've yet to see anything indicating all of this is more than just another method of trying to prevent feels. Completely open to info being shared that's backed up by evidence rather than just talk. 

[Nard_S]

6 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Those who have responded have yet to address the fact that the body begins its pressure shift back towards the ball while the hands and arms are still moving upward. I asked for a simple explanation as to how one would direct the momentum of the club and let the body react when we know that is the case. 

You basically answered your own question, pivot earlier, stay in left tilt, fire in the vertical. I don't even know where the "gravity drop" is advocated. Malaska? GG does for his method. Not Tiger not Rose, certainly not AMG.

[PedronNiall]

2 hours ago, Nard_S said:

You basically answered your own question, pivot earlier, stay in left tilt, fire in the vertical. I don't even know where the "gravity drop" is advocated. Malaska? GG does for his method. Not Tiger not Rose, certainly not AMG.

 

In the video above as I mentioned. Should start at the correct time. Before and in this segment he continually discusses how gravity will take care of getting the club down which is factually not a main contributing force on the club in the downswing, that's been the point. Along with the fact that "directing the momentum of the club and letting the body respond" is not what is seen by any visual or sensor-based measuring of the swing.

 

It's one thing for people to tout feels as a valuable approach, which they can very much be if they work for the person trying to use them, and what Malaska himself says the main purpose of his move is as well as many posters in this thread keep pointing out. When we get to the directing the momentum part and gravity will do the work, however, these do not align with reality and are not presented as feels, hence me taking issue with them. The "tremendous momentum" he talks about has almost none of its basis in gravity.

 

If you jump to 14:00 minutes MacKenzie explicitly talks about the work gravity does on the club, which is minimal. I'd recommend watching the whole thing for anyone claiming gravity is a substantial part of what gets the club down to the ball.

 

The force & work applied by gravity are straightforward. They are minimal in terms of getting the club from the top of the swing to its lowest point, force applied to the club, work done on the club, and the total kinetic energy of the club at impact. As follows, they are minimal in terms of force applied to the ball by the club, work done on the ball by the club, and kinetic energy imparted on the ball by the club. Malaska is right that the club is going to go down, but its journey along the downward path & speed in getting there is mostly caused by the kinetic chain acting on it, not gravity, and the swing that most desire is not a result of directing the momentum of the club and the body responding to that.

 

If gravity were the main component we'd see far higher club head speed with irons than we do with the ultralight modern driver setups, yet time and time again driver is the highest speed club in the bag. If the proper downswing were a result of the momentum of the club causing the body to react we wouldn't see elite swings where the body initiates the directional change while the club/hands/arms continue to move upward. For some reason certain posters in the thread refuse to accept those facts while also refusing to present any evidence supporting their claims.

 

Reiterating, I'm 100% fine with conveying feels, but they should be presented as such. It's bad to see incorrect claims passed around as fact with as much data as we now have and continue to gain about the swing. Malaska claims that gravity is what gets the club down, implies that it is a major source of the club's momentum, and states that the momentum of the club causes the body to react in a proper swing, none of which are backed up by physics or video & sensor data. While the above are slightly older videos it doesn't change that they are incorrect and for whatever reason some continue trying to hold onto them as proper teaching methodology outside of a feel perspective.

[Nard_S]

47 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

In the video above as I mentioned. Should start at the correct time. Before and in this segment he continually discusses how gravity will take care of getting the club down which is factually not a main contributing force on the club in the downswing, that's been the point. Along with the fact that "directing the momentum of the club and letting the body respond" is not what is seen by any visual or sensor-based measuring of the swing.

 

It's one thing for people to tout feels as a valuable approach, which they can very much be if they work for the person trying to use them, and what Malaska himself says the main purpose of his move is as well as many posters in this thread keep pointing out. When we get to the directing the momentum part and gravity will do the work, however, these do not align with reality and are not presented as feels, hence me taking issue with them. The "tremendous momentum" he talks about has almost none of its basis in gravity.

 

If you jump to 14:00 minutes MacKenzie explicitly talks about the work gravity does on the club, which is minimal. I'd recommend watching the whole thing for anyone claiming gravity is a substantial part of what gets the club down to the ball.

 

The force & work applied by gravity are straightforward. They are minimal in terms of getting the club from the top of the swing to its lowest point, force applied to the club, work done on the club, and the total kinetic energy of the club at impact. As follows, they are minimal in terms of force applied to the ball by the club, work done on the ball by the club, and kinetic energy imparted on the ball by the club. Malaska is right that the club is going to go down, but its journey along the downward path & speed in getting there is mostly caused by the kinetic chain acting on it, not gravity, and the swing that most desire is not a result of directing the momentum of the club and the body responding to that.

 

If gravity were the main component we'd see far higher club head speed with irons than we do with the ultralight modern driver setups, yet time and time again driver is the highest speed club in the bag. If the proper downswing were a result of the momentum of the club causing the body to react we wouldn't see elite swings where the body initiates the directional change while the club/hands/arms continue to move upward. For some reason certain posters in the thread refuse to accept those facts while also refusing to present any evidence supporting their claims.

 

Reiterating, I'm 100% fine with conveying feels, but they should be presented as such. It's bad to see incorrect claims passed around as fact with as much data as we now have and continue to gain about the swing. Malaska claims that gravity is what gets the club down, implies that it is a major source of the club's momentum, and states that the momentum of the club causes the body to react in a proper swing, none of which are backed up by physics or video & sensor data. While the above are slightly older videos it doesn't change that they are incorrect and for whatever reason some continue trying to hold onto them as proper teaching methodology outside of a feel perspective.

Okay, so Malaska is conveying an idea incorrect or he's wrong. Not like that's never happened before. If i recall I did not think much of this video. His one on hip movement proved more worthy to me.

[johnrobison]

Wasn't all this discussed extensively in the early days of this thread back in 2015?

[TedKnight]

I’ve taken the “free ride” and I still don’t know how it works.  Its faster than gravity, gravity starts slow.

 

TED