Are Rangfinders with Slope Now Legal?

[Newby]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1448740640' post='12656420']
That is confusing. That would seem to be a contradiction.

Range finders can be used if the local rules allow. The Royal Ancient and the USGA do not allow the use of a Range Finder under their rules unless the Slope Function is turned off .

I am sure I was very clear the first time. This is not hard "no slope in tournaments under the rules of USGA and the Royal Ancient".
[/quote]

Are you referring to the present rules (2015) or next year (2016).

If the former, the Local Rule is not on the current R&A hardcard. So DMDs may not be used at all. The same for the USGA.
However, that relates to the Open Championship and USGA Open (and any other pro events). The Local Rule is in place for their amateur events.

However the 2015 Local Rule does not permit non-conforming functions to be on the DMD. Not just that they must be switched off

. [i]If, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (e.g. gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc.), the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification, [color=#ff0000]regardless of whether any such additional function is actually used[/color]."[/i]

See key word [b]'installed[/b]' RH picture here [url="http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/understanding-dmds.pdf"]http://www.usga.org/...anding-dmds.pdf[/url]
See also post #16

From 2016 the Local Rule omits the final clause.

[i]If, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance-measuring device to gauge or measure other conditions[/i]
[i]that might affect his play (e.g. elevation changes, wind speed, etc.), the player is in breach of Rule 14-3.”[/i]

The R&A and USGA have not as yet changed their hardcards to incorporate the Local Rule permitting any use of a DMD

[Guia]

2016

[Guia]

Can't we all just get along?????? Evidently, not. Every post is picked apart with "unless", "butt", and "if" and whatever.

I posted the easy correct answer "[b][u]Wait until 1 Jan 2016 and see what your club says.[/u][/b]"

I thought this post was put to bed over a month ago, like all threads on here, they never die.

[Guia]

Sawgrass: I assume that you are reference to Mocking was too another poster?

Your knowledge and interpretation of the rules is well known, I would not attack or mock you.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1448754647' post='12657160']
Sawgrass: I assume that you are reference to Mocking was too another poster?

Your knowledge and interpretation of the rules is well known, I would not attack or mock you.
[/quote]

No sir, I did not feel like you were mocking me. And it is very much appreciated that you would even care enough to ask.

Further, I'm sorry if it seemed to you that I was quibbling with you. I was sincerely just looking to be very precise, I have learned things on this forum that I otherwise would have missed if other people were not so devoted to precision. So I'm devoted to that.

I regret if it was annoying, that was in no way my goal.

Have a good night, Guia.

[SadTrombone]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1448773225' post='12658126']
[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1448754647' post='12657160']
Sawgrass: I assume that you are reference to Mocking was too another poster?

Your knowledge and interpretation of the rules is well known, I would not attack or mock you.
[/quote]

No sir, I did not feel like you were mocking me. And it is very much appreciated that you would even care enough to ask.

Further, I'm sorry if it seemed to you that I was quibbling with you. [b]I was sincerely just looking to be very precise, I have learned things on this forum that I otherwise would have missed if other people were not so devoted to precision. So I'm devoted to that.[/b]

I regret if it was annoying, that was in no way my goal.

Have a good night, Guia.
[/quote]
You know what?

...that's fair.

I apologize for my snippiness earlier. I should've seen that you were just trying to be as precise as possible when answering the question, and I apologize.

Should our paths cross, I hope you'll allow me to buy the first round!

[Colin L]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1448754517' post='12657148']
I posted the easy correct answer "[b][u]Wait until 1 Jan 2016 and see what your club says.[/u][/b]"
[/quote]

I will not be alone amongst the contributors to this thread to be the person who writes “what his club says” about the Rules to members. Considering how easy this change to Rule14-3 was to explain compared with the one it is replacing, it’s surprising how complicated the discussion above has become. It is as simple as the note I put out to my fellow members:

[color=#165878][size=2][i]Where a Local Rule permitting the use of a DMD is in place, you are in breach of the rule only if you use your DMD to measure something else which could assist your play. The penalty for the first breach of the rule is loss of hole or 2 strokes. For any subsequent breach, the penalty is [u]disqualification.[/u][/i][/size][/color]


[color="#165878"] The answer to any question on the lines of “[size="1"]Can I measure [/size]distance with a device that can tell me temperature/ wind direction/ gradient/ barometric pressure/ humidity/ the rotation of the earth/ ..........” will be yes, provided you do not use any of those facilities. [/color]

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='minitour' timestamp='1448778556' post='12658296']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1448773225' post='12658126']
[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1448754647' post='12657160']
Sawgrass: I assume that you are reference to Mocking was too another poster?

Your knowledge and interpretation of the rules is well known, I would not attack or mock you.
[/quote]

No sir, I did not feel like you were mocking me. And it is very much appreciated that you would even care enough to ask.

Further, I'm sorry if it seemed to you that I was quibbling with you. [b]I was sincerely just looking to be very precise, I have learned things on this forum that I otherwise would have missed if other people were not so devoted to precision. So I'm devoted to that.[/b]

I regret if it was annoying, that was in no way my goal.

Have a good night, Guia.
[/quote]
You know what?

...that's fair.

I apologize for my snippiness earlier. I should've seen that you were just trying to be as precise as possible when answering the question, and I apologize.

Should our paths cross, I hope you'll allow me to buy the first round!
[/quote]

I'll buy the second!

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1448792617' post='12658434']
[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1448754517' post='12657148']
I posted the easy correct answer "[b][u]Wait until 1 Jan 2016 and see what your club says.[/u][/b]"
[/quote]

I will not be alone amongst the contributors to this thread to be the person who writes “what his club says” about the Rules to members. Considering how easy this change to Rule14-3 was to explain compared with the one it is replacing, it’s surprising how complicated the discussion above has become. It is as simple as the note I put out to my fellow members:

[color=#165878][size=2][i]Where a Local Rule permitting the use of a DMD is in place, you are in breach of the rule only if you use your DMD to measure something else which could assist your play. The penalty for the first breach of the rule is loss of hole or 2 strokes. For any subsequent breach, the penalty is [u]disqualification.[/u][/i][/size][/color]


[color=#165878]The answer to any question on the lines of “[size=1]Can I measure [/size]distance with a device that can tell me temperature/ wind direction/ gradient/ barometric pressure/ humidity/ the rotation of the earth/ ..........” will be yes, provided you do not use any of those facilities. [/color]
[/quote]

Colin, here's a twist about actively measuring temperature. I'd like to credit Wendy123 for bringing this to my attention when I saw that she was actively with me during the online chat that the USGA recently held. While the big deal is obviously the new allowance of functions that one doesn't access when using a DMD, Wendy was astute enough to note that "temperature" was excluded from the revision to D14-3/0.5. Not only did she note this, but asked the USGA representative if this was a deliberate exclusion and he said something along the lines of, "Yes, we've determined that measuring temperature isn't of sufficient help to rise to the level of affecting a player's play."

Here's the old decision, with "temperature" underscored:

[b] 14-3/0.5[/b]

[color=#000000] [/color]
[b] Local Rule Permitting Use of Distance-Measuring Device[/b]
[color=#474B55]

[color=#D5213A][b]Q.[/b][/color]May a Committee, by Local Rule, permit the use of distance-measuring devices?[/color][color=#474B55]

[color=#D5213A][b]A.[/b][/color]Yes. A Committee may establish a Local Rule allowing players to use devices that measure or gauge distance only (see the Note to Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14,14-3"]14-3[/url]). However, the use of a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, [u]temperature[/u], etc.) is not permitted regardless of whether such an additional function is used.[/color][color=#474B55]

In the absence of such a Local Rule, the use of a distance-measuring device would be contrary to Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14,14-3"]14-3[/url].[/color]


Here is the new Decision:

14-3/0.5 Local Rule Permitting Use of Distance-Measuring Device Q. May a Committee, by Local Rule, permit the use of distance-measuring devices? A. Yes. A Committee may establish a Local Rule allowing players to use a device to measure or gauge distance only (see the Note to Rule 14-3). However, if a distance-measuring device has additional functionality that can gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player’s play (e.g. elevation change, wind speed, etc.), the use of any such additional function would be a breach of Rule 14-3. In the absence of such a Local Rule, the use of a distance-measuring device would be contrary to Rule 14-3. (Revised)




Two things come of this:
1) Wendy deserves a tip of the cap, I really find that to be an impressive observation.
2) It was clearly stated that measuring temperature will be acceptable (though I'm not sure if the Rules do a great job of alerting us to that -- unless I've missed some other mention elsewhere).

[Newby]

Of course most DMDs (in particular smartphones) didn't actually measure temperature. They simply reported it from a weather station or whatever.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1448816907' post='12659246']
Of course most DMDs (in particular smartphones) didn't actually measure temperature. They simply reported it from a weather station or whatever.
[/quote]

Yes, but it also now seems true that if you carry an old-fashioned thermometer around with you and use it, that's perfectly legal, as would be the use of a compass. This thermometer acceptability seems like an "unheralded" change.

[Colin L]

Yes, I noticed the disappearance of temperature. I also vaguely recollect a number of arguments (perhaps not here) to the effect that measuring temperature would not assist in your play - arguments now sustained by the RBs.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1448817509' post='12659276']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1448816907' post='12659246']
Of course most DMDs (in particular smartphones) didn't actually measure temperature. They simply reported it from a weather station or whatever.
[/quote]

Yes, but it also now seems true that if you carry an old-fashioned thermometer around with you and use it, that's perfectly legal, as would be the use of a compass. This thermometer acceptability seems like an "unheralded" change.
[/quote]

There are a number of guys at my club who have thermometers somewhere on their private cart. And it was hardly unusual for me to be in one of those carts at times. Even being on the handicap committee at the time, I just ignored that completely. I felt that there was far more to be lost here, than to be gained.

So in one month my conscience is clean!

dave

[Guia]

What about a Solstice device that measures only the shortest and longest days of the year as compared to non-Solstice days?????

I have never played with anyone who carried a device to measure temperature and barometric pressure. Seems much too technical for useless information, i.e.,, hit a ball in cold weather it does not go as far as a ball hit in warm weather, common sense. At 43 degrees do you hit a club 7/8 firmer than you do at 46 degrees. Are we playing golf with all of this information, or shooting mechanical howitzers. If you can't adjust to conditions without this technical mumbo-jumbo information then you need to take up something else.

This has become a post about useless verbal semantics and not about the simplistic of the game of golf. Go out hit the friggin ball, find it play it as it lies, hit it again. It is a simple game played by too many who over theorize about things that have no affect on how you score. HIT IT, FIND IT, HIT IT AGAIN, you don't need a weather man to make decisions for you.

Taking all this into consideration on a shot to shot basis is ridiculous......ready for the 7 hour round?

[Noles]

If the answer is in this thread I missed it. Can I use a range finder in a tournament that has the ability to have slope turned off or on? The issue is that I don't think the one I am looking at makes it able to determine whether slope is on or off unless you look through the viewfinder.

[Sawgrass]

It used to be that the mere presence of the slope function rendered the device illegal to use in any way.

 

Now it's only using the slope function which is illegal.

 

Whether people believe you regarding your avoidance of the potential use of the slope function is a different matter.

 

Edit: I thought I was the first person to respond to this thread and now it's clear I wasn't. Sorry for any repetition

[Noles]

It used to be that the mere presence of the slope function rendered the device illegal to use in any way.

 

Now it's only using the slope function which is illegal.

 

Whether people believe you regarding your avoidance of the potential use of the slope function is a different matter.

 

Edit: I thought I was the first person to respond to this thread and now it's clear I wasn't. Sorry for any repetition

You are the first and only to respond to my question. I topped an old thread. Good use of search function by me! (breaks arm patting self on back)