The Old Course At St. Andrews: A Cow Pasture?

[duffer987]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1451520718' post='12782108']
Recalling my time with that gentleman who told me about the Old Course, he told me that he went there just for the sake of playing there. Indeed he was excited to play, given the history and tradition, but overall he was disappointed in what he saw, hence the comparison to a "cow pasture." Of course the statement may be repugnant to those who may be too sentimental of the Old Course, but the topic is about what the Old Course offers regardless of how sentimental one may feel for it. Could it be that Tom Doak is also being overly sentimental of the Old Course when he gave the "cow pasture" course a perfect 10 rating? Exactly what are the genius design features of the Old Course that makes is superior to a course with the likes of, say, Cape Kidnappers? You must admit that for the latter course a hole with cliffs on both sides of a fairway would be worth getting on a plane for. What about Pebble Beach GL? What about Pacific Dunes? Or Pine Valley? Cypress Point? Exactly why does Doak rate the Old Course a perfect 10? Can he elaborate on some of the genius using examples from the Old Course and juxtaposing to a brilliant hole with the likes of, say, the 18th hole at Old Head? This is not a tongue-in-cheek stab at Doak, but a genuine inquiry. Help us see the what's so brilliant of something that is so simple when compared to contemporary wonders.
[/quote]

TBH go play and find out for yourself Also go buy his coffee table book of the UK and Ireland to read for yourself, you'll get more detailed descriptions of various courses and specific holes, to help you contextualize these various numbers.
Trotting out one course designer and his three mates' ratings of golf courses (which you didn't I know, someone else did) as a be-all-end-all doesn't help and this thread would be better without it IMHO.

[EmperorPenguin]

[quote name='az2au' timestamp='1451522657' post='12782256']Cypress, ok, fine CPC is brilliant but stil iould argue that there are three weak holes.
[/quote]

Gosh, I think you are referring to 8, 9 and 18? Those are abominations!

Still, with a course like Cypress Point Club, could it be possible to praise the virtues of those "weak" holes just because you may feel sentimental of the course?

[az2au]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1451524712' post='12782476']
[quote name='az2au' timestamp='1451522657' post='12782256']Cypress, ok, fine CPC is brilliant but stil iould argue that there are three weak holes.
[/quote]

Gosh, I think you are referring to 8, 9 and 18? Those are abominations!

Still, with a course like Cypress Point Club, could it be possible to praise the virtues of those "weak" holes just because you may feel sentimental of the course?
[/quote]
I guess. Again, just picking at it. CPC is outstanding but if you gave me a choice between the two to play tomorrow I'd pick TOC without a second thought.

Actually tomorrow I am playing at Poirt Royal in Bermuda again so I'm spoiled already

[stringbean502001]

Emperor Penguin--not going to try to find a hole by hole analysis by Doak--I'm sure it's out there somewhere--he caddied at St Andrews and knows the course deeply. In his book he gives a couple good pages to it. If you are really interested though, I would encourage you to study it--there is more written about the course than any in the world. It's all there now on the internet...

What you might find interesting also, given the first time "cow pasture" comment, is that many players dislike or hate the course the first time...but in time become converts, or beyond. The subtle nature of the course is such that it is hard to understand immediately for even the best. I have to say there are so many examples of this you could fill volumes. A few that I found in about 15 minutes...


[i]Tom Doak inThe Confidential Guide to Golf Courses[/i]--" the strength of the St Andrews best holes is unmatched in the game...par 3 11th playing out to the Eden River is the single greatest short hole in the world...Road Hole...second shot best played short of the green, no matter how big or how brave...moguls on the approach to the 2nd green...sharp mound in front of the 4th discourage aerial approaches because of the possibility of a severe carom...nest of blind bunkers in the middle of the 12th fairway dupes the cautious golfer...[u][b]Such features are beyond the imagination of any human designer.[/b][/u].."

[i]Bobby Jones[/i]--"[b][u]The more I studied the Old Course, the more I loved it[/u][/b]; and the more I loved it, the more I studied it."
“I could take out of my life everything except my experiences at St Andrews and I would still have a rich, full life.”

“Hated it,” [url="http://www.golfchannel.com/topics/people/rory-mcilroy.htm"]Rory McIlroy[/url] said last year at the Dunhill Links. “Thought it was the worst golf course I've ever played … I just stood up on every tee and was like, ‘What is the fascination about this place?’ But the more you play it and the more you learn about the golf course and the little nuances, you learn to appreciate it. [b][u]Now it's my favorite golf course in the world[/u][/b], so it's definitely a course that grows on you.”

[i]Gary Player--[/i]“Although my first round at the Old Course left a sour taste in my mouth, St. Andrews is a place you grow to love – especially the town and the people. The golf course was built hundreds of years ago, but continues to stand the test of time. Incredible. It is a golf course that you have to [b][u]play a couple times to understand and fully comprehend the strategy of the course[/u],[/b] and I truly think that the designers were ahead of their time.”

[i]Ben Crenshaw[/i]--“But when you see it and play it for the first time it’s not like anything else in the world. If you talk about [i]knowing[/i] a golf course, there is a [b][u]lifetime of knowing about that course, and discovering different ways to play it is the fascination of it[/u][/b]. I’m looking forward to watching the British Open this year because a British Open at St. Andrews is extra special. I’ve always enjoyed watching how people get around it because there’s a million ways to play it and it changes all the time and you have to know it. [b][u]You have to have a knowledge of it unlike any other[/u][/b]. It’s very difficult [for a] first-timer to win there.”

"I was just fascinated," Crenshaw said of his first encounter with the linksland on St. Andrews Bay. "It's basically a very flat golf course from some perspectives. But when you get out and play it, it's anything but flat. It's just a sea of very minute and interesting undulations.
"I still marvel at them."
"I do not think I could go on living unless I felt that one day I might win the Open Championship at St. Andrews."

[i]Tom Watson[/i]---
When he was asked by Tom Rinaldi after his round why he waited until this tournament to say goodbye, Watson gave the perfect response.
[b][u]"Cause I wanted one more shot at the Old Course."[/u][/b]

[i]Jack Nicklaus--[/i][i]"I fell in love with it the first day I played it. There’s just [u][b]no other golf course that is even remotely close[/b][/u]."[/i]

[i]Tiger Woods--"Without a doubt I like it the best of all the Open venues. [b][u]It’s my favourite course in the world[/u][/b]."[/i]

“Honestly, I wasn’t a fan in the beginning,” said [url="http://www.golfchannel.com/topics/people/kevin-na.htm"]Kevin Na[/url]. “I didn’t understand why the golf course was designed like this. I couldn’t see the holes, I couldn’t see the bunkers. I thought 17 and 18 were cool, but besides that I didn’t think it was very good. But the next time I played it … I knew a lot more about golf courses and architecture and I remember playing the first practice round and the second practice round, and I was like, ‘You know what? This place is really cool. I get it now. I get why [b][u]this is one of the coolest places to play in the world[/u].[/b]’ So it took me two tournaments to figure that out.”

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='stringbean502001' timestamp='1451527964' post='12782764']
[i]Ben Crenshaw[/i]--“But when you see it and play it for the first time it’s not like anything else in the world. If you talk about [i]knowing[/i] a golf course, there is a [b][u]lifetime of knowing about that course, and discovering different ways to play it is the fascination of it[/u][/b]. I’m looking forward to watching the British Open this year because a British Open at St. Andrews is extra special. I’ve always enjoyed watching how people get around it because there’s a million ways to play it and it changes all the time and you have to know it. [b][u]You have to have a knowledge of it unlike any other[/u][/b]. It’s very difficult [for a] first-timer to win there.”

"I was just fascinated," Crenshaw said of his first encounter with the linksland on St. Andrews Bay. "It's basically a very flat golf course from some perspectives. But when you get out and play it, it's anything but flat. It's just a sea of very minute and interesting undulations.
"I still marvel at them."
"I do not think I could go on living unless I felt that one day I might win the Open Championship at St. Andrews."
[/quote]

With his name mentioned twice in this thread, isn't it interesting to see what he thinks about the old sheep pasture on the coast.

[TheDailyDuffer]

I was probably a bit harsh.

[EmperorPenguin]

[quote name='stringbean502001' timestamp='1451527964' post='12782764']
What you might find interesting also, given the first time "cow pasture" comment, is that many players dislike or hate the course the first time...but in time become converts, or beyond. The subtle nature of the course is such that it is hard to understand immediately for even the best. I have to say there are so many examples of this you could fill volumes. A few that I found in about 15 minutes...[/quote]

Doesn't this statement apply to [i]any[/i] golf course if you are referring to a paradigm shift? A golf course can give you a terrible first impression, but after you play it enough you will grow to appreciate it.

Golf course designers are dumbfounded. Instead of drawing up blueprints for a golf course, all they have to do is take some undeveloped parcel of land, mow it down, let bunkers naturally develop, and let sheep naturally create the greens. Tada! A splendid golf course.

[TheDailyDuffer]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1451536549' post='12783332']
[quote name='stringbean502001' timestamp='1451527964' post='12782764']
What you might find interesting also, given the first time "cow pasture" comment, is that many players dislike or hate the course the first time...but in time become converts, or beyond. The subtle nature of the course is such that it is hard to understand immediately for even the best. I have to say there are so many examples of this you could fill volumes. A few that I found in about 15 minutes...[/quote]

Doesn't this statement apply to [i]any[/i] golf course if you are referring to a paradigm shift? A golf course can give you a terrible first impression, but after you play it enough you will grow to appreciate it.

Golf course designers are dumbfounded. Instead of drawing up blueprints for a golf course, all they have to do is take some undeveloped parcel of land, mow it down, let bunkers naturally develop, and let sheep naturally create the greens. Tada! A splendid golf course.
[/quote]

The only thing I've learned form this thread is that you have no way to actually contribute.......since once again you have not played the course.

[67VIP]

I spent 9 days in St Andrews in Oct 2014, my second trip there. Played 7 rounds, 4 of them on the Links Trust courses. They are all immaculately conditioned and not a speck of trash in sight...they employ a massive ground crew to keep it that way. I enjoyed being there and would love to go back again...hell I'd love to live there if I had the means. But as far as the courses I played on that trip (St Andrews Old/New/Eden/Castle, The Dukes of St Andrews, Gleneagles Kings, and Royal Aberdeen) The Old Course was probably my least favorite and least impressive. I was totally blown away by Royal Aberdeen and Gleneagles Kings, plus The Dukes was a big surprise--wonderful heathland course, which are my personal favorites anyway. I played a lot of names my four years in the UK--including my share of links courses such as Royal St Georges, Hunstanton, Sheringham, Royal Cromer, Felixstowe, and Seacroft. But the heathlands were always tops for me...especially after bagging Sunningdale 2x, Walton Heath 2x, Woodbridge 5x, and Woodhall Spa 10x.

[sevenfourate]

[quote name='67VIP' timestamp='1451542607' post='12783530']
I spent 9 days in St Andrews in Oct 2014, my second trip there. Played 7 rounds, 4 of them on the Links Trust courses. They are all immaculately conditioned and not a speck of trash in sight...they employ a massive ground crew to keep it that way. I enjoyed being there and would love to go back again...hell I'd love to live there if I had the means. But as far as the courses I played on that trip (St Andrews Old/New/Eden/Castle, The Dukes of St Andrews, Gleneagles Kings, and Royal Aberdeen) The Old Course was probably my least favorite and least impressive. I was totally blown away by Royal Aberdeen and Gleneagles Kings, plus The Dukes was a big surprise--wonderful heathland course, which are my personal favorites anyway. I played a lot of names my four years in the UK--including my share of links courses such as Royal St Georges, Hunstanton, Sheringham, Royal Cromer, Felixstowe, and Seacroft. But the heathlands were always tops for me...especially after bagging Sunningdale 2x, Walton Heath 2x, Woodbridge 5x, and Woodhall Spa 10x.
[/quote]

Im from Suffolk. Infact i'm 40 miles from Woodbridge and have played it maybe 25-30 (?) times. Superb course.....and often frequented by US Airmen ! They seemingly all love it too.... :-) Quite a few County Open Championships have been held there because of its quality and the test of golf it presents.

Hunstanton (Sunny Hunny as the locals call it) is fabulous, along with Sheringham of Course. Im not quite so keen on Cromer......although Gary Player [Who has a relative who lives locally] calls the 14h - right near the lighthouse - ".....his favourite whole in the World" !! Did you get to play Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) while you were over ? That is a must. As retro as golf comes, a real 'blast-from-the-past' and a truly amazing 'step back in time' golf course.

Im not so sure i'd class Felixstowe as a true links, and its not in my all time favourite list for sure. Pleasant enough golf on a nice day though.

Quite the UK resume you have though. You certainly played a few of our better courses............

"Happy New Year" from this side of the pond.

[benden]

[quote name='sevenfourate' timestamp='1451568702' post='12783946']
[quote name='67VIP' timestamp='1451542607' post='12783530']
I spent 9 days in St Andrews in Oct 2014, my second trip there. Played 7 rounds, 4 of them on the Links Trust courses. They are all immaculately conditioned and not a speck of trash in sight...they employ a massive ground crew to keep it that way. I enjoyed being there and would love to go back again...hell I'd love to live there if I had the means. But as far as the courses I played on that trip (St Andrews Old/New/Eden/Castle, The Dukes of St Andrews, Gleneagles Kings, and Royal Aberdeen) The Old Course was probably my least favorite and least impressive. I was totally blown away by Royal Aberdeen and Gleneagles Kings, plus The Dukes was a big surprise--wonderful heathland course, which are my personal favorites anyway. I played a lot of names my four years in the UK--including my share of links courses such as Royal St Georges, Hunstanton, Sheringham, Royal Cromer, Felixstowe, and Seacroft. But the heathlands were always tops for me...especially after bagging Sunningdale 2x, Walton Heath 2x, Woodbridge 5x, and Woodhall Spa 10x.
[/quote]

Im from Suffolk. Infact i'm 40 miles from Woodbridge and have played it maybe 25-30 (?) times. Superb course.....and often frequented by US Airmen ! They seemingly all love it too.... :-) Quite a few County Open Championships have been held there because of its quality and the test of golf it presents.

Hunstanton (Sunny Hunny as the locals call it) is fabulous, along with Sheringham of Course. Im not quite so keen on Cromer......although Gary Player [Who has a relative who lives locally] calls the 14h - right near the lighthouse - ".....his favourite whole in the World" !! Did you get to play Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) while you were over ? That is a must. As retro as golf comes, a real 'blast-from-the-past' and a truly amazing 'step back in time' golf course.

Im not so sure i'd class Felixstowe as a true links, and its not in my all time favourite list for sure. Pleasant enough golf on a nice day though.

Quite the UK resume you have though. You certainly played a few of our better courses............

"Happy New Year" from this side of the pond.
[/quote]

Aaah, Brancaster - now that's a place!!

Beach in the Summer is a great place and my kids LOVE it!

Summer time, this year, sat on the dunes at the beach side watching 'the golf'.....

Must admit though, the first person i saw coming through the gates had the obligatory knee length socks on, that are required if your wearing tailored shorts. The socks were in a traditional 'argyle pattern'.

Not sure i've got the knees for such socks, lol!

[sevenfourate]

[quote name='benden' timestamp='1451580316' post='12784638']
[quote name='sevenfourate' timestamp='1451568702' post='12783946']
[quote name='67VIP' timestamp='1451542607' post='12783530']
I spent 9 days in St Andrews in Oct 2014, my second trip there. Played 7 rounds, 4 of them on the Links Trust courses. They are all immaculately conditioned and not a speck of trash in sight...they employ a massive ground crew to keep it that way. I enjoyed being there and would love to go back again...hell I'd love to live there if I had the means. But as far as the courses I played on that trip (St Andrews Old/New/Eden/Castle, The Dukes of St Andrews, Gleneagles Kings, and Royal Aberdeen) The Old Course was probably my least favorite and least impressive. I was totally blown away by Royal Aberdeen and Gleneagles Kings, plus The Dukes was a big surprise--wonderful heathland course, which are my personal favorites anyway. I played a lot of names my four years in the UK--including my share of links courses such as Royal St Georges, Hunstanton, Sheringham, Royal Cromer, Felixstowe, and Seacroft. But the heathlands were always tops for me...especially after bagging Sunningdale 2x, Walton Heath 2x, Woodbridge 5x, and Woodhall Spa 10x.
[/quote]

Im from Suffolk. Infact i'm 40 miles from Woodbridge and have played it maybe 25-30 (?) times. Superb course.....and often frequented by US Airmen ! They seemingly all love it too.... :-) Quite a few County Open Championships have been held there because of its quality and the test of golf it presents.

Hunstanton (Sunny Hunny as the locals call it) is fabulous, along with Sheringham of Course. Im not quite so keen on Cromer......although Gary Player [Who has a relative who lives locally] calls the 14h - right near the lighthouse - ".....his favourite whole in the World" !! Did you get to play Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) while you were over ? That is a must. As retro as golf comes, a real 'blast-from-the-past' and a truly amazing 'step back in time' golf course.

Im not so sure i'd class Felixstowe as a true links, and its not in my all time favourite list for sure. Pleasant enough golf on a nice day though.

Quite the UK resume you have though. You certainly played a few of our better courses............

"Happy New Year" from this side of the pond.
[/quote]

Aaah, Brancaster - now that's a place!!

Beach in the Summer is a great place and my kids LOVE it!

Summer time, this year, sat on the dunes at the beach side watching 'the golf'.....

Must admit though, the first person i saw coming through the gates had the obligatory knee length socks on, that are required if your wearing tailored shorts. The socks were in a traditional 'argyle pattern'.

Not sure i've got the knees for such socks, lol!
[/quote]

To fit in you'd need an old Bentley (Plus chauffeur), handle-bar moustache, tweed-jacket AND the socks of course !

You local or were you on hols ??

[67VIP]

[quote name='sevenfourate' timestamp='1451568702' post='12783946']
[quote name='67VIP' timestamp='1451542607' post='12783530']
I spent 9 days in St Andrews in Oct 2014, my second trip there. Played 7 rounds, 4 of them on the Links Trust courses. They are all immaculately conditioned and not a speck of trash in sight...they employ a massive ground crew to keep it that way. I enjoyed being there and would love to go back again...hell I'd love to live there if I had the means. But as far as the courses I played on that trip (St Andrews Old/New/Eden/Castle, The Dukes of St Andrews, Gleneagles Kings, and Royal Aberdeen) The Old Course was probably my least favorite and least impressive. I was totally blown away by Royal Aberdeen and Gleneagles Kings, plus The Dukes was a big surprise--wonderful heathland course, which are my personal favorites anyway. I played a lot of names my four years in the UK--including my share of links courses such as Royal St Georges, Hunstanton, Sheringham, Royal Cromer, Felixstowe, and Seacroft. But the heathlands were always tops for me...especially after bagging Sunningdale 2x, Walton Heath 2x, Woodbridge 5x, and Woodhall Spa 10x.
[/quote]

Im from Suffolk. Infact i'm 40 miles from Woodbridge and have played it maybe 25-30 (?) times. Superb course.....and often frequented by US Airmen ! They seemingly all love it too.... :-) Quite a few County Open Championships have been held there because of its quality and the test of golf it presents.

Hunstanton (Sunny Hunny as the locals call it) is fabulous, along with Sheringham of Course. Im not quite so keen on Cromer......although Gary Player [Who has a relative who lives locally] calls the 14h - right near the lighthouse - ".....his favourite whole in the World" !! Did you get to play Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) while you were over ? That is a must. As retro as golf comes, a real 'blast-from-the-past' and a truly amazing 'step back in time' golf course.

Im not so sure i'd class Felixstowe as a true links, and its not in my all time favourite list for sure. Pleasant enough golf on a nice day though.

Quite the UK resume you have though. You certainly played a few of our better courses............

"Happy New Year" from this side of the pond.
[/quote]

No, I never played Brancaster...wish I had. I also played quite a few parkland courses such as Stoke Park, Moor Park, Woburn, The Grove, London Golf Club, The Belfry, Celtic Manor, & Hadley Wood.

The great thing about St Andrews is not only the amount of fantastic golf in the area, but the atmosphere, food, friendly people, and pubs. Way more to it than just the Old Course.

[benden]

[quote name='sevenfourate' timestamp='1451580761' post='12784678']
[quote name='benden' timestamp='1451580316' post='12784638']
[quote name='sevenfourate' timestamp='1451568702' post='12783946']
[quote name='67VIP' timestamp='1451542607' post='12783530']
I spent 9 days in St Andrews in Oct 2014, my second trip there. Played 7 rounds, 4 of them on the Links Trust courses. They are all immaculately conditioned and not a speck of trash in sight...they employ a massive ground crew to keep it that way. I enjoyed being there and would love to go back again...hell I'd love to live there if I had the means. But as far as the courses I played on that trip (St Andrews Old/New/Eden/Castle, The Dukes of St Andrews, Gleneagles Kings, and Royal Aberdeen) The Old Course was probably my least favorite and least impressive. I was totally blown away by Royal Aberdeen and Gleneagles Kings, plus The Dukes was a big surprise--wonderful heathland course, which are my personal favorites anyway. I played a lot of names my four years in the UK--including my share of links courses such as Royal St Georges, Hunstanton, Sheringham, Royal Cromer, Felixstowe, and Seacroft. But the heathlands were always tops for me...especially after bagging Sunningdale 2x, Walton Heath 2x, Woodbridge 5x, and Woodhall Spa 10x.
[/quote]

Im from Suffolk. Infact i'm 40 miles from Woodbridge and have played it maybe 25-30 (?) times. Superb course.....and often frequented by US Airmen ! They seemingly all love it too.... :-) Quite a few County Open Championships have been held there because of its quality and the test of golf it presents.

Hunstanton (Sunny Hunny as the locals call it) is fabulous, along with Sheringham of Course. Im not quite so keen on Cromer......although Gary Player [Who has a relative who lives locally] calls the 14h - right near the lighthouse - ".....his favourite whole in the World" !! Did you get to play Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) while you were over ? That is a must. As retro as golf comes, a real 'blast-from-the-past' and a truly amazing 'step back in time' golf course.

Im not so sure i'd class Felixstowe as a true links, and its not in my all time favourite list for sure. Pleasant enough golf on a nice day though.

Quite the UK resume you have though. You certainly played a few of our better courses............

"Happy New Year" from this side of the pond.
[/quote]

Aaah, Brancaster - now that's a place!!

Beach in the Summer is a great place and my kids LOVE it!

Summer time, this year, sat on the dunes at the beach side watching 'the golf'.....

Must admit though, the first person i saw coming through the gates had the obligatory knee length socks on, that are required if your wearing tailored shorts. The socks were in a traditional 'argyle pattern'.

Not sure i've got the knees for such socks, lol!
[/quote]

To fit in you'd need an old Bentley (Plus chauffeur), handle-bar moustache, tweed-jacket AND the socks of course !

You local or were you on hols ??
[/quote]

Fairly local, about an hour southbound on the edge of 'The Fens'. So nicely doable when the sun's out!

Drive through the Sandringham Estate on the way up, so it's no surprise the club's had 4 members of Royalty as past Captains, i'm supposing!

Dog's allowed.....not sure about that, dogs chase spherical objects.

And, i strangely LIKE playing when the wind blows hard - slightly masochistic maybe, but there's no feeling like a very, very strong wind on your back, on a tee, thinking 'this ball could go MILES'.......

[benden]

[quote name='67VIP' timestamp='1451583953' post='12784898']
[quote name='sevenfourate' timestamp='1451568702' post='12783946']
[quote name='67VIP' timestamp='1451542607' post='12783530']
I spent 9 days in St Andrews in Oct 2014, my second trip there. Played 7 rounds, 4 of them on the Links Trust courses. They are all immaculately conditioned and not a speck of trash in sight...they employ a massive ground crew to keep it that way. I enjoyed being there and would love to go back again...hell I'd love to live there if I had the means. But as far as the courses I played on that trip (St Andrews Old/New/Eden/Castle, The Dukes of St Andrews, Gleneagles Kings, and Royal Aberdeen) The Old Course was probably my least favorite and least impressive. I was totally blown away by Royal Aberdeen and Gleneagles Kings, plus The Dukes was a big surprise--wonderful heathland course, which are my personal favorites anyway. I played a lot of names my four years in the UK--including my share of links courses such as Royal St Georges, Hunstanton, Sheringham, Royal Cromer, Felixstowe, and Seacroft. But the heathlands were always tops for me...especially after bagging Sunningdale 2x, Walton Heath 2x, Woodbridge 5x, and Woodhall Spa 10x.
[/quote]

Im from Suffolk. Infact i'm 40 miles from Woodbridge and have played it maybe 25-30 (?) times. Superb course.....and often frequented by US Airmen ! They seemingly all love it too.... :-) Quite a few County Open Championships have been held there because of its quality and the test of golf it presents.

Hunstanton (Sunny Hunny as the locals call it) is fabulous, along with Sheringham of Course. Im not quite so keen on Cromer......although Gary Player [Who has a relative who lives locally] calls the 14h - right near the lighthouse - ".....his favourite whole in the World" !! Did you get to play Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) while you were over ? That is a must. As retro as golf comes, a real 'blast-from-the-past' and a truly amazing 'step back in time' golf course.

Im not so sure i'd class Felixstowe as a true links, and its not in my all time favourite list for sure. Pleasant enough golf on a nice day though.

Quite the UK resume you have though. You certainly played a few of our better courses............

"Happy New Year" from this side of the pond.
[/quote]

No, I never played Brancaster...wish I had. I also played quite a few parkland courses such as Stoke Park, Moor Park, Woburn, The Grove, London Golf Club, The Belfry, Celtic Manor, & Hadley Wood.

The great thing about St Andrews is not only the amount of fantastic golf in the area, but the atmosphere, food, friendly people, and pubs. Way more to it than just the Old Course.
[/quote]

If you've played Moor Park you've travelled up a small road to get to the clubhouse (more of a bloody great grade 1 listed Manor/Palace). On the way there is a public course called 'Rickmansworth Public Golf Course'. Next time your over, play it please, it'll blow your mind!

The par 4, 3rd hole is an elevated tee (i'm talking probably about 100 yds up, feels like in the outer atmosphere), with a road and cars going onto the very rich, salubrious 'Estate' at
the bottom of the valley directly in front of you. The thought on my mind, as a kid standing on that tee, was this - IF i thin this we are in serious, serious trouble. Never played a hole like it! 2nd shot blind with ball very, very above feet on a PROPER hill.

It's a good, tight, cheap course - you won't regret the money spent, trust me. Harry Colt designed too, at the same time as MP.

[Uncle Chunk]

So what I'm gathering here is Tom Doak's OPINION is gospel but the OP's friend who played it too, his OPINION is cluless or any other derogatory word you can think of to describe it...got cha, there must be some horses with really long legs around here...And to be completely honest I've never played TOC but I would absolutely love too not because of the course but the history and the ability to walk the same fairways and greens as some of the greatest players to ever play this wonderful game. As a side note I know 2 people that have played it a handful of times and NEITHER was that impressed with the course but both loved the history and 1 of the gentleman has played ALOT of top shelf courses worldwide

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='Uncle Chunk' timestamp='1451765169' post='12792814']
So what I'm gathering here is Tom Doak's OPINION is gospel but the OP's friend who played it too, his OPINION is cluless or any other derogatory word you can think of to describe it...got cha
[/quote]

Yep. You nailed it. When it comes to golf course design, the opinion of an architect who has both played many hundred courses, and designed several Top 50 / 100 courses is the gospel when compared to the opinion of a friend of an internet stranger. Funny how that works.

Having played the course a few times, it is [i]really [/i]hard to separate the myth/legend/history from the merits of the course itself. I've dumped one into the hell bunker just to try to play it out. I've been secretly pleased to find myself up against the stone wall on 17. I always hit driver on 1, hoping for a dunk in the Swilcan burn. These are not situations that I'd be happy about on any other golf course. In that sense it's a really unique place.

But I can understand that people without a working knowledge of golf architecture could find the course dull. That's sort of the beauty of it - everything looks easy, but the subtleties make it challenging.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='Uncle Chunk' timestamp='1451765169' post='12792814']
So what I'm gathering here is Tom Doak's OPINION is gospel but the OP's friend who played it too, his OPINION is cluless or any other derogatory word you can think of to describe it...got cha, there must be some horses with really long legs around here...And to be completely honest I've never played TOC but I would absolutely love too not because of the course but the history and the ability to walk the same fairways and greens as some of the greatest players to ever play this wonderful game. As a side note I know 2 people that have played it a handful of times and NEITHER was that impressed with the course but both loved the history and 1 of the gentleman has played ALOT of top shelf courses worldwide
[/quote]

I am not of the opinion that Tom Doak's opinion is gospel. That being said, as much as we'd all like for everyone to be equal, or their opinions to carry equal weight, someone like Tom Doak might carry a little more weight than your average "-" handicap rated golfer.

It would be like if I opined on the design/structural merits of the bridges in Europe, and then someone holding a PE stamp, with both a BS and MS in Mechanical Engineering, opined on the bridges in Europe.

[elwhippy]

It is original and quirky. And fairly easy on a regular day. The town of St Andrews is magical and the OC is part of the experience. Tom Doak worships every nuance and divot but in honesty there are much better courses in Scotland but none come close to the sense of occasion.

[67VIP]

[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1451767850' post='12792940']
[quote name='Uncle Chunk' timestamp='1451765169' post='12792814']
So what I'm gathering here is Tom Doak's OPINION is gospel but the OP's friend who played it too, his OPINION is cluless or any other derogatory word you can think of to describe it...got cha
[/quote]

Yep. You nailed it. When it comes to golf course design, the opinion of an architect who has both played many hundred courses, and designed several Top 50 / 100 courses is the gospel when compared to the opinion of a friend of an internet stranger. Funny how that works.

Having played the course a few times, it is [i]really [/i]hard to separate the myth/legend/history from the merits of the course itself. I've dumped one into the hell bunker just to try to play it out. I've been secretly pleased to find myself up against the stone wall on 17. I always hit driver on 1, hoping for a dunk in the Swilcan burn. These are not situations that I'd be happy about on any other golf course. In that sense it's a really unique place.

But I can understand that people without a working knowledge of golf architecture could find the course dull. That's sort of the beauty of it - everything looks easy, but the subtleties make it challenging.
[/quote]

I had a unique opportunity to live in the UK four years and I made the most of it, which seems to have delighted American Express to no end. I played over 70 courses there, on top of what I've played in the U.S. for 37 years...I know what I like and don't like. I also am a bit of a golf historian, which is what led me to chase down most of the courses I played in the UK...especially Sunningdale, Walton Heath, Moor Park, Stoke Park--I really like Harry Colt courses. I also liked Royal Aberdeen way better than Royal St George's or The Old Course...sorry to disappoint. I could care less what Tom Doak, or any other architect has to say about courses...I form my own opinions. I told the staff at The Castle Course in St Andrews they have a beautiful course, but their greens are stupid--it's rediculous the amount of contour on some of them...if they'd flatten them out some it would have a much better reputation. The first time you play it's like wow...this is awesome; the second time you play it's like wow--this is clown golf. They hear that all the time and told me they'd been flattened out once already. Considering the cost to make a trip to St Andrews, opinions from average golfers vs elitists might be more valuable in determining which courses to make an effort to play...you're biggest expense is going to be getting there and food/lodging. That usually puts a damper on how much golf you can get in considering time and money...wouldnt you want the biggest bang for the buck? The three day ticket at St Andrews is a phenomenal deal for a few pounds more than the cost of playing TOC, and the New/Jubilee/Edens courses are routed either side of TOC on the same turf, in the same conditions...I can tell you from personal experience that the New/Jubilee courses are a first class SOB in high winds. The Kings Course at Gleneagles is a one of a kind, and the front nine at Royal Aberdeen is probably the best nine holes of links golf around...I would recommend that as the core of any trip to the home of golf. If you have more money to spend, then throw in TOC and Carnoustie. If you have even more money leftover, try and book a foursome at Muirfield...I never played that one or Turnberry and it irritates me to no end.

[BrianL99]

Of all the course architects to quote, Doak is and always has been the least credible.

[QMany]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1451851445' post='12796734']
Of all the course architects to quote, Doak is and always has been the least credible.
[/quote]
Any reason for this [i]opinion[/i]?

[raynorfan1]

Of all the course architects to quote, Doak is and always has been the least credible.

 

Even without disputing that, more or less credible than the random friend of an anonymous internet poster?

 

Sure, I'd love a Tom Fazio / Ben Crenshaw / Jack Nicklaus counterpoint to Doak - that would be interesting. But Doak vs. random dude is not.

[raynorfan1]

I also liked Royal Aberdeen way better than Royal St George's or The Old Course...sorry to disappoint. I could care less what Tom Doak, or any other architect has to say about courses...I form my own opinions.

 

The standard that we're defending here is not "TOC is 'the greatest course in the world'" or even Scotland, the standard is whether or not it should be considered a "cow pasture." It's not my favorite course in Scotland. It's probably in the top 5, certainly in the top 10 (in Scotland). Those are all really good golf courses. Personally, I'd take TOC over Royal Aberdeen, but I understand it if you wouldn't.

 

Your perspective on Gleneagles Kings surprises me. I haven't played it in a couple of years, but after I did, I was in no rush to go back. I only really remember being stuck on the wrong side of that huge mound on #3. Maybe I'll give it another try this Spring.

[BrianL99]

I would never dispute St. Andrews pedigree.

 

That said ... if someone built that golf course today, I think we all know what the reaction of the golf world would be and it surely wouldn't be widespread acclaim.

[EmperorPenguin]

I would never dispute St. Andrews pedigree.

 

That said ... if someone built that golf course today, I think we all know what the reaction of the golf world would be and it surely wouldn't be widespread acclaim.

 

Like, for example, "it looks like a cow pasture"? Surely such an assessment may be akin to insulting one's mother when people may feel so sentimental about the course, given its venerable history. However, my contention with this thread is that perhaps along with the course is a certain cult of personality attached.

 

In a few years I will go there to play the famous Old Course, but after hearing the gentleman's honest assessment--or at least, initial impression--of the course as a "cow pasture," I am wondering if I will be booking a year in advance and getting on a plane along with a few buddies just for the sake of playing it. My concern is that there are a number of golfers who have gone through the year-long process only to have been disappointed in what they ultimately saw.

 

Here is my question for those of you who may hold the Old Course closely to heart: would it be worth a trip to fly all the way there across a dozen time zones just to play that course alone--this means, specifically, not playing any other course--for a week? Is the experience of playing the Old Course so great that one may forsake other courses like the New Course, Jubilee, Kingsbarns, Dornoch, Castle Stuart or Royal County Down just because the Old Course is the home of golf? If we are all supposed to be brainwashed conditioned to believe that the Old Course is so great, why, then, are golfers playing other courses when the Old Course is all they really need? If I had the invitation to play Augusta National for a week, I would spend the whole week playing that course instead of looking for somewhere else to play, and yes a course like Augusta National is worth getting on a plane for, just like other great courses like Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Sand Hills, Shinnecock Hills or Fisher's Island. We shouldn't give it a second thought and pick the Old Course over any other course, right?

[Ralphyboy84]

Carnoustie member so probably a little biased but in my opinion it's an average golf course but an unbelievable experience. I do think there's an element where people, particularly pros, are afraid to criticise the course. When working at the dunhill links tournament one year I heard one English pro and former world number 1 refer to the course as not being in the top 100 courses in Fife never mind the world. The next day he was quoted on tv saying how much he loved it!

 

i love playing it whenever I get the chance but there's too many other courses I'd rather play ahead of it. Cruden bay, Dornoch, Muirfield etc.

 

Having also played the new course as well for the first time this year I was really disappointed by it. One or two good holes but there were far too many holes particularly around the turn where you could hit it as far left or right as you want and not get into any bother. For me the old course is vastly superior to the new course.

 

 

[az2au]

I would never dispute St. Andrews pedigree.

 

That said ... if someone built that golf course today, I think we all know what the reaction of the golf world would be and it surely wouldn't be widespread acclaim.

 

Like, for example, "it looks like a cow pasture"? Surely such an assessment may be akin to insulting one's mother when people may feel so sentimental about the course, given its venerable history. However, my contention with this thread is that perhaps along with the course is a certain cult of personality attached.

 

In a few years I will go there to play the famous Old Course, but after hearing the gentleman's honest assessment--or at least, initial impression--of the course as a "cow pasture," I am wondering if I will be booking a year in advance and getting on a plane along with a few buddies just for the sake of playing it. My concern is that there are a number of golfers who have gone through the year-long process only to have been disappointed in what they ultimately saw.

 

Here is my question for those of you who may hold the Old Course closely to heart: would it be worth a trip to fly all the way there across a dozen time zones just to play that course alone--this means, specifically, not playing any other course--for a week? Is the experience of playing the Old Course so great that one may forsake other courses like the New Course, Jubilee, Kingsbarns, Dornoch, Castle Stuart or Royal County Down just because the Old Course is the home of golf? If we are all supposed to be brainwashed conditioned to believe that the Old Course is so great, why, then, are golfers playing other courses when the Old Course is all they really need? If I had the invitation to play Augusta National for a week, I would spend the whole week playing that course instead of looking for somewhere else to play, and yes a course like Augusta National is worth getting on a plane for, just like other great courses like Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Sand Hills, Shinnecock Hills or Fisher's Island. We shouldn't give it a second thought and pick the Old Course over any other course, right?

 

It seems you have made up your mind so I wouldn't bother if I were you. Thank goodness that single opinion was enough to show you the light :)

[raynorfan1]

Here is my question for those of you who may hold the Old Course closely to heart: would it be worth a trip to fly all the way there across a dozen time zones just to play that course alone--this means, specifically, not playing any other course--for a week? Is the experience of playing the Old Course so great that one may forsake other courses like the New Course, Jubilee, Kingsbarns, Dornoch, Castle Stuart or Royal County Down just because the Old Course is the home of golf? If we are all supposed to be brainwashed conditioned to believe that the Old Course is so great, why, then, are golfers playing other courses when the Old Course is all they really need? If I had the invitation to play Augusta National for a week, I would spend the whole week playing that course instead of looking for somewhere else to play, and yes a course like Augusta National is worth getting on a plane for, just like other great courses like Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Sand Hills, Shinnecock Hills or Fisher's Island. We shouldn't give it a second thought and pick the Old Course over any other course, right?

 

You've certainly whipsawed the goal posts around here. There's a wide gap between "Cow Pasture" and "foresake all other golf courses so that you can play the ONE true course."

 

A couple of points to make:

 

(1) The comparison to Augusta, Cypress, Pine Valley, Shinnecock, et. al. is unreasonable, because exclusivity is part (like it or not) of the "great" American golf experience. Get on a plane to play Pebble, Bethpage, Bandon Dunes, Pinehurst (i.e. public access courses)? Nah. But if I get the invite to play CPC, ANGC, or PV, I'm booking a flight.

 

(2) Related to point (1), I think Americans undervalue TOC because it is easy to get on. There is no doubt that Americans value exclusivity. If ANGC were open to the public for a $250 greens fee, I don't think it would hold the same regard in our public's view.

 

I would put TOC in the same category as Pebble - if I'm in the area for business (or for another reason), I'm going to try to add it onto my itinerary. No big deal if I can't get there (because there's always next time), but it's worth doing if possible.

[c5bubblechaser]

Oh you can't bring that up here. People will castrate you for speaking your opinion. Had some, friends that played there and talked how amazing it was when people were around but admitted it wasn't worth the hype when they were one on one. I'll save my money and play elsewhere