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Biggest difference between PGA pro and a +6


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Like a smiley face excuses requoting/perpetuating that nonsense. Appreciate Dan's patience.

 

Have you ever been to see Dan?

 

No and I'm sick and tired of you jumping in with all the BS just because you've got some problem with him that is irrelevant to any thread you jump in on. You guys want to insult him, PM him or better yet, let it go.

 

Again, appreciate Dan's patience.

 

Then you are ignorant. So you admit you have never seen Dan but you are mad at me? Brilliant!

 

Just sick and tired. Your post just a few up is simply inexcusable. The rest are poor attempts at baiting/insulting. It's all obvious but more than that, pointless.

 

Kuch's thread is not about your personal issues.

 

WTF are you talking about? Kuch's thread?

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Let's get back in the Fairways Gents :)

 

Ignore him, he'll go away.....

 

All the Best,

RP

In the end, only three things matter~ <br /><br />How much that you loved...<br /><br />How mightily that you lived...<br /><br />How gracefully that you accepted both victory & defeat...<br /><br /><br /><br />GHIN: Beefeater 24

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We've gotten a billion reports on this thread, so moving to The Cooler for now to figure out what's going on.

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Like a smiley face excuses requoting/perpetuating that nonsense. Appreciate Dan's patience.

 

Have you ever been to see Dan?

Dude, where's this goin?

 

You've established that you don't care for him and ya think that he sucks~

 

I'm not speaking for him but I think he's ok with your opinions-

 

It's just how much longer does the bullsh** continue?

 

What, do you wanna get the thread locked?

 

And no, I'm not the thread cop it's just if we were sitting around a table this kind of passive aggressive chickens*** stuff wouldn't go on-

 

This is a nice thread and he's made some nice points-

 

So you don't agree with him-

 

Ya can't just state you views and thoughts without attacking him?

 

Then you're gonna attack Hawk, one of the classiest guys on this board??

 

You're cute, haha

 

And yea, I'm an ignorant dumba** and I'm good with it :)

 

All the Best,

Richard

 

Forged

 

With all due respect. I know life has not dealt you a straight flush lately

 

However, Dan uses this forum to solicit business. If he, and others are going to question, attack, and put other instructors down, then it is my obligation to let those who have not seen Dan, to not blindly spend their hard earned money on what I feel is a waste of time.

 

Dan is not an instructor, he is a researcher, and a great one. Apples to oranges forged.

 

Good luck in your fight. My wife at the age of 36 had breast cancer and (knock on wood) she is cancer free. Fight the good fight bro. I'm pulling for you.

 

I have a lot of family in the Natrona Heights/Breckenridge area

 

Go Patriots...Steelers suck!... LOL

 

Good luck Forged.

 

I'm sure I will be reading your posts.

 

 

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Like a smiley face excuses requoting/perpetuating that nonsense. Appreciate Dan's patience.

 

Have you ever been to see Dan?

Dude, where's this goin?

 

You've established that you don't care for him and ya think that he sucks~

 

I'm not speaking for him but I think he's ok with your opinions-

 

It's just how much longer does the bullsh** continue?

 

What, do you wanna get the thread locked?

 

And no, I'm not the thread cop it's just if we were sitting around a table this kind of passive aggressive chickens*** stuff wouldn't go on-

 

This is a nice thread and he's made some nice points-

 

So you don't agree with him-

 

Ya can't just state you views and thoughts without attacking him?

 

Then you're gonna attack Hawk, one of the classiest guys on this board??

 

You're cute, haha

 

And yea, I'm an ignorant dumba** and I'm good with it :)

 

All the Best,

Richard

 

Forged

 

With all due respect. I know life has not dealt you a straight flush lately

 

However, Dan uses this forum to solicit business. If he, and others are going to question, attack, and put other instructors down, then it is my obligation to let those who have not seen Dan, to not blindly spend their hard earned money on what I feel is a waste of time.

 

Dan is not an instructor, he is a researcher, and a great one. Apples to oranges forged.

 

Good luck in your fight. My wife at the age of 36 had breast cancer and (knock on wood) she is cancer free. Fight the good fight bro. I'm pulling for you.

 

I have a lot of family in the Natrona Heights/Breckenridge area

 

Go Patriots...Steelers suck!... LOL

 

Good luck Forged.

 

I'm sure I will be reading your posts.

Thank you for the thoughts :)

 

I do appreciate them-

 

Have a nice season and the very best to Your, Your wife and Your Family :)

 

All the Best,

Richard

In the end, only three things matter~ <br /><br />How much that you loved...<br /><br />How mightily that you lived...<br /><br />How gracefully that you accepted both victory & defeat...<br /><br /><br /><br />GHIN: Beefeater 24

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A good +6 who isn't a PGA player probably doesn't really want to be one.

 

A couple thousand mini tour players, Web.com guys, Challenge Tour, Asian Tour, could go on and on would all disagree with you. Many are grinding their butts off, racking up massive debt, and are never home chasing the dream. Desire isn't the issue

I meant no disrespect with that post. But I stand by it. I played hockey with a lot of guys who were definitely good enough to make it to the NHL. Like the +6, they were all missing an ingredient. Often they knew what the ingredient was....heart, killer instinct, whatever....but chose not to develop that inner part that was keeping them from what they thought they wanted more than anything. In the end, someone with good enough game to make the bigs but doesn't, really doesn't want to be there. For some, as an example, developing killer instinct is not inherent in their personality and it never will be because in their heart of hearts they don't want it as a part of their makeup. In the end, it is that choice that keeps them from moving forward.

I realize that this is my opinion, but it is one based on much experience, including my very own.

 

And I'd argue being a +6 in and of itself isn't good enough. There are thousands of +6 level golfers and only 156 guys on the PGA Tour playing each week. A +6 is the bare minimum to have success on the Swingthought Tour (formerly Hooters/NGA), Canadian Tour and PGALA. Playing to a +6 a lot of weeks on the Web.Com tour will miss the cut. A handicap is only based on your best 50% of your round. In professional golf the 50% that aren't counted are more often than not more important than the ones that are. A players anti cap is as important or even more so to his success than what his handicap would be.

 

Your hockey analogy simply doesn't hold any water. It's not even close. The NHL allows 23 active players per team and 50 players under contract per team. That is 690 active players and 1500 players that are under NHL contracts. There are 60 NCAA Division 1 college hockey teams and almost half of those are DII or DIII schools "playing up". There are currently 1,172 D1 college hockey players.

 

Lets compare that to D1 college golf. There are 299 mens D1 college golf programs. Thats 5x as many golf programs as hockey programs. There are almost 3x as many college golfers as college hockey players yet the odds of a high school golfer playing college golf is about HALF the odds of a high school hockey player playing college golf. So the number of high school golfers in the US (152,647) dwarfs the number of high school hockey players (35,393) making the odds of making it to college golf let alone the PGA Tour is way lower. So you have 5x as many guys going after 10% of the available spots teams have in the NHL. The odds of making it on the PGA tour is literally 50x worse than making it in the NHL.

 

Golf has the worst ratio of highly skilled athletes vs available number of spots in all of professional sports.

How about the fact that there are a half dozen guys on Tour this year, their first year, that'll never see the tour again. You get one shot these days. For every Justin Thomas that finds quick success there are 20 that might have the talent, but not the mind.....Too competitive......
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Is there any say of way of looking up US and UK handicap rankings? IE how many +4 players there are?

 

In the US, only this I believe:

 

http://www.usga.org/...s-d24e6096.html

 

wouldn't this only track those who have an official USGA handicap. wasn't there an article or thread recently about the low percentage of golfers that actually carry an official handicap.

 

think link states that 10% of golfers are 5 handicap or better. i don't beleive it. better players tend to carry official handicaps. i'm willing these percentages are pretty unrealistic if there was any way to factor in legit scores from those who don't turn there scores in. if you are a 5 handicap you are in the top 1-2%, not 10%. but then again, this gets back to what is considered a golfer. someone who plays 3 times a year? 10, 20?

 

maybe a topic for another thread, just a reaction after clicking the link

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wouldn't this only track those who have an official USGA handicap. wasn't there an article or thread recently about the low percentage of golfers that actually carry an official handicap.

 

This is off topic but if you don't have a handicap then surely you're not a golfer. I realise there is quite a massive difference between the US and say UK/Europe, whereby a handicap is source of pride (or embarrassment) and access to courses is quite different. I have several friends who still play cricket (instead of giving it up and playing Saturday golf), and claim all kinds of manufactured handicaps.

 

However coming back to my original point, a +6 would almost be impossible to achieve (especially in the UK, where your handicap is determined by medal rounds only). The logic being, that in order to get that low you would need to devote a professional level of time to your game. I think someone already mentioned Rory was closest before turning pro.

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he said there aren't many college players at +4. the best ones would be multiple shots better than +4. there are tons at +4. have you seen the courses these kids play? they're the hardest courses in the country in harder conditions than the pga tour will ever see.

 

huge difference between playing a course in the summer when its nice, vs the college golf seasons which have junk weather. go play a 7000 yard course in 40 degrees and rain, then play it again in the same day. tell me how your scores do.

 

you have to factor in the weather for college golf and that a lot of rounds are back to back. which show even more how good the kids are.

 

This is huge! I played low level college golf and ran into this a ton. I would post my scores from 32 degrees, 50 mph winds, and pins 3 feet from the edge of the green. Next thing you know, the season was over, summer was here and my handicap was 3 or 4 and I would wreck for a few months before it adjusted again. The conditions and the difficulty is what everyone is missing here as well. These kids aren't playing your 18 hole home course. They are travelling and playing under high pressure and difficult conditions. Not all 1's are the same...

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They are travelling and playing under high pressure and difficult conditions. Not all 1's are the same...

 

I thought the slope system was supposed to address this?

You could argue something similar for the PGA Tour, perfect greens and fairways. Yes the holes are long, but man, Adam Scott hit 2i, 8i into a par 4 at the Honda and I thought I'd have to hit a good driver and 5i into.

Plus the Tour tends to chase summer as well. My handicap goes out several shots in winter. Lose distance but you get softer greens, so it could almost balance. But playing in mud and rain never brings the best scores out of me.

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wouldn't this only track those who have an official USGA handicap. wasn't there an article or thread recently about the low percentage of golfers that actually carry an official handicap.

 

This is off topic but if you don't have a handicap then surely you're not a golfer. I realise there is quite a massive difference between the US and say UK/Europe, whereby a handicap is source of pride (or embarrassment) and access to courses is quite different. I have several friends who still play cricket (instead of giving it up and playing Saturday golf), and claim all kinds of manufactured handicaps.

 

However coming back to my original point, a +6 would almost be impossible to achieve (especially in the UK, where your handicap is determined by medal rounds only). The logic being, that in order to get that low you would need to devote a professional level of time to your game. I think someone already mentioned Rory was closest before turning pro.

 

Yes, Rory was +5.2 when he played in the Open as a 17/18 year old. And he's going to be the best ever player from the UK, and was something of a child prodigy (I think he was scratch at about 11years old).

 

I know a young lad who played in last year's open and he was playing off +4 at a very tough track near Birkdale. He is on the verge of making the Walker Cup team, so he's one of the best in UK.

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Really interesting thread here Fellas, One I've Seen growing bit never opened until now. The stuff from Isaac, Dan and Monte is fascinating to read. I thought Original Premise was Kind of silly but it really has been an interesting conversation.

 

Also, Gotta back my man ngb a little bit. I don't think he was saying Drive and desire Are THE determining factors for all uber talented, +6 Types, but Surely a percentage of those guys burn out early from the grind and I'm sure an even smaller number of Guys Who got Most of the way there on natural Ability with minimal work ethic and can't change their habits enough to get over the hump. That's not an insult to Anybody. But it's at least partially true. Some Guys, in all Avenues, fear Success.

 

Thanks again for the interesting insight from everyone who participated here Because they lived it. Good stuff fellas.

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They are travelling and playing under high pressure and difficult conditions. Not all 1's are the same...

 

I thought the slope system was supposed to address this?

You could argue something similar for the PGA Tour, perfect greens and fairways. Yes the holes are long, but man, Adam Scott hit 2i, 8i into a par 4 at the Honda and I thought I'd have to hit a good driver and 5i into.

Plus the Tour tends to chase summer as well. My handicap goes out several shots in winter. Lose distance but you get softer greens, so it could almost balance. But playing in mud and rain never brings the best scores out of me.

 

It's definitely supposed to but it misses parts as well. In general, it will rate different courses and be relatively close. The problem happens when you play the same course two days in a row, one day it's calm and the next day it's blowing 35 mph. The slope doesn't account for that. Courses are rated on normal conditions, not speedy men's club greens.

 

College tournaments are usually the extremes of this. Greens keepers are trying to protect par and the course against the guys coming in. When I played, it was a joke because EVERY tee marker all the way off the back of the box, the pins were on the hardest position on EVERY green. And then you add in spring and fall weather and you have a set up for some high scores.

 

I played D3 and got second in a tournament of 78 golfers with a 76 one time. I can tell story after story about crazy conditions or crazy pressure but the fact is that these kids are REALLY good and so much better than we give them credit for.

 

Also, if you don't want to take my word for it, get one of those illustrious tee times after a PGA tourney before they cut the grass and see how you stack against your handicap. It can be very humbling.

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They are travelling and playing under high pressure and difficult conditions. Not all 1's are the same...

 

I thought the slope system was supposed to address this?

 

The slope is only a ratio of difficulty between a "scratch" and "bogey" golfer, as the USGA defines them. Daily changes such as weather or course setup is not reflected in the US system. I brought this up last season and was lambasted for suggesting they should include that in a daily course rating!

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They are travelling and playing under high pressure and difficult conditions. Not all 1's are the same...

 

I thought the slope system was supposed to address this?

 

The slope is only a ratio of difficulty between a "scratch" and "bogey" golfer, as the USGA defines them. Daily changes such as weather or course setup is not reflected in the US system. I brought this up last season and was lambasted for suggesting they should include that in a daily course rating!

 

how would you suggest employing a daily course rating? like what factors would come into play ? just makes it more and more subjective

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how would you suggest employing a daily course rating? like what factors would come into play ? just makes it more and more subjective

 

I don't think it would be that hard, especially given most handicapping systems are electronic.

Say if 100 hundred people play and it's blowing its nuts off, and everyone on average plays 5 shots over their handicap, then adjust the standard scratch for the day, maybe move it up a shot or something.

 

Is it really needed? Probably not, it's not like people shoot exactly their handicap, they're over usually, or maybe a little under. Or sometimes like my course they're way under.

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What Monte said about the ability to score when you aren't at your best and being able to put 4 rounds together. Can't remember when, maybe about 5 years ago I remember a round Mickelson hit 5 GIR and shot like 3 under.

 

What amazes me about the guys on tour, especially the top players, their game travels. Conditions, grasses, green speeds, time zones, etc.. they still score relative to the field. Their "judgement" of each shot is superior to others. I'm sure players have preferences but the ability to adjust day to day, week to week, month to month is uncanny.

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