Adam Scott - straddling the line when reading greens?

[jballoregon]

I was watching the end of the WGC today, I'm 90% sure they briefly showed Adam Scott straddled the line to get his AimPoint read in before putting in for par to win the tourney. Did anyone else see this? Secondly, it is still a rules violation to straddle your intended line before putting correct?

[Cwing]

Don't think so. Against the rules to test your line, against the rules to try and walk your line in an attempt to indent a path to the hole but I don't think straddling the line is against anything. This is common with aim point.

[Shilgy]

I was watching the end of the WGC today, I'm 90% sure they briefly showed Adam Scott straddled the line to get his AimPoint read in before putting in for par to win the tourney. Did anyone else see this? Secondly, it is still a rules violation to straddle your intended line before putting correct?

Still a violation? When was it a violation?

[sui generis]

I'll offer two things, first a Definition, then a Decision. Decide for yourself.

 

The "line of putt" is the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green. Except with respect to Rule 16-1e, the line of putt includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line. The line of putt does not extend beyond the hole.

 

16-1a/12 Player Walks on Line of Putt

 

Q. A player walked on his line of putt. Did he incur a penalty for a breach of Rule 16-1a?

 

A. Yes, if he did so intentionally. No, if he did so accidentally and the act did not improve the line.

[Colin L]

Aim point is a bit of nightmare for referees. It is especially hard to tell if the player is avoiding standing on his line of putt where there is a break that makes it almost impossible for him to assess what the line of putt is.

[Vindog]

16-1. General...

 

e. Standing Astride or on Line of Putt

 

 

The player must not make a stroke on the putting green from a stance astride, or with either foot touching, the line of putt or an extension of that line behind the ball.

 

Exception: There is no penalty if the stance is inadvertently taken on or astride the line of putt (or an extension of that line behind the ball) or is taken to avoid standing on another player's line of putt or prospective line of putt.

 

 

Not a penalty to stand astride the line if you are not making a stroke.

[jballoregon]

He definitely did not stand on his line, the intended line was between his feet, and his body was between the marked ball position and the cup. I've been told in my mens club, this is illegal. I appreciate the feed back in this forum.

[Mr. Bean]

He definitely did not stand on his line, the intended line was between his feet, and his body was between the marked ball position and the cup. I've been told in my mens club, this is illegal. I appreciate the feed back in this forum.

 

Do note what Colin pointed out in his post #5 and sui generis in post #4. The line of putt includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line. Thus standing with one's feet on both sides of the intended line, especially other than very close to the ball may be a breach but it is not an automatic breach.

[Roadking2003]

He definitely did not stand on his line, the intended line was between his feet, and his body was between the marked ball position and the cup. I've been told in my mens club, this is illegal. I appreciate the feed back in this forum.

 

Ask your men's club which rule he broke. I suspect they will have trouble finding one.

[golfingal]

Maybe the confusion lies in straddling the line isn't legal when hitting a putt - however straddling the line when reading a putt is OK.

[QMany]

Rule 16-1a (Touching the Line of Putt) and Players Who Straddle or Walk Alongside the Line of Putt

 

The R&A and the USGA have recently been asked about methods of reading a putting green where players stand astride or stand or walk alongside their estimated line of putt to assess the slope of the green and the break of the putt. The question is whether such actions have the potential to breach Rule 16-1a.

 

Under Rule 16-1a, the player must not touch the line of putt. (There are exceptions to Rule 16-1a, but none of them relate to methods of reading the putting green or determining a line of putt.) The “line of putt” is defined in the Rules as “the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green” including “a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line”. The penalty for a breach of Rule 16-1a is loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play. Consequently, players who use such green-reading methods should take care to avoid walking on their line of putt in order to avoid the risk of penalty under Rule 16-1a.

 

The same is true of any other practices used by players to gain information when their ball is on the putting green, such as walking alongside the line of putt to measure the distance to the hole or standing at a midpoint to the hole and hovering the putter over the line of putt. To avoid the risk of penalty, players or their caddies who take any such actions should take care to avoid touching the line of putt, which includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line, with their feet, the club, or anything else.

 

The European Tour also released a video.

[Sawgrass]

I'll offer two things, first a Definition, then a Decision. Decide for yourself.

 

The "line of putt" is the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green. Except with respect to Rule 16-1e, the line of putt includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line. The line of putt does not extend beyond the hole.

 

16-1a/12 Player Walks on Line of Putt

 

Q. A player walked on his line of putt. Did he incur a penalty for a breach of Rule 16-1a?

 

A. Yes, if he did so intentionally. No, if he did so accidentally and the act did not improve the line.

 

I submit that even if a player stands on the line of his putt when reading it, he is absolved of penalty assuming the player acting in this manner was attempting to stand astride, and not on, his line and attempting to miss the line by a reasonable distance. Since that's exactly what Aim Point instructs one to do, it's very plausible that the player has no illegal intention and therefore has made no illegal act.

 

I've heard from a well-connected person that some in the USGA do not "like" this and are lobbying to change it, but that was long before the 2016 Rules came out and it certainly was not changed.

[Mr. Bean]

He definitely did not stand on his line, the intended line was between his feet, and his body was between the marked ball position and the cup. I've been told in my mens club, this is illegal. I appreciate the feed back in this forum.

 

Ask your men's club which rule he broke. I suspect they will have trouble finding one.

 

No trouble finding the Rule but there is trouble finding the intent.

[QEight]

I'll offer two things, first a Definition, then a Decision. Decide for yourself.

 

The "line of putt" is the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green. Except with respect to Rule 16-1e, the line of putt includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line. The line of putt does not extend beyond the hole.

 

16-1a/12 Player Walks on Line of Putt

 

Q. A player walked on his line of putt. Did he incur a penalty for a breach of Rule 16-1a?

 

A. Yes, if he did so intentionally. No, if he did so accidentally and the act did not improve the line.

 

I submit that even if a player stands on the line of his putt when reading it, he is absolved of penalty assuming the player acting in this manner was attempting to stand astride, and not on, his line and attempting to miss the line by a reasonable distance. Since that's exactly what Aim Point instructs one to do, it's very plausible that the player has no illegal intention and therefore has made no illegal act.

 

I would have to say that after 18 holes of non intentionally standing on putting line, I would find it hard not to comment about it.

 

Watching Adam Scott's great win, I must say that he straddles the line awfully close. I know that they can put very well (except Rory...), Adam seems to make no effort to show his intent of avoiding the line. Especially based on the joint statement and the video @QMany provided earlier. He should respect his own line as much as everybody else's. But of course as long as he is not penalized, it is ok by the rules,

[larrybud]

To toss this little tidbit out there: How does he know if he is or isn't standing in his own line if he has yet to read the green? ;-)

[Sawgrass]

To toss this little tidbit out there: How does he know if he is or isn't standing in his own line if he has yet to read the green? ;-)

 

His not knowing makes it easier to establish his lack of intention.

[larrybud]

To toss this little tidbit out there: How does he know if he is or isn't standing in his own line if he has yet to read the green? ;-)

 

His not knowing makes it easier to establish his lack of intention.

 

Sounds like a player could use that excuse in any situation and make the rule null and void. "I didn't know that was my line, I hadn't read the putt yet".

[Sawgrass]

To toss this little tidbit out there: How does he know if he is or isn't standing in his own line if he has yet to read the green? ;-)

 

His not knowing makes it easier to establish his lack of intention.

 

Sounds like a player could use that excuse in any situation and make the rule null and void. "I didn't know that was my line, I hadn't read the putt yet".

 

I suppose lying is often an effective way to cheat, but I'm suspicious that a player would intentionally walk on his own line. Unless of course he's trying to illegally level spike marks, though he very well may be making new ones at the same time.

[sui generis]

To toss this little tidbit out there: How does he know if he is or isn't standing in his own line if he has yet to read the green? ;-)

 

His not knowing makes it easier to establish his lack of intention.

 

Sounds like a player could use that excuse in any situation and make the rule null and void. "I didn't know that was my line, I hadn't read the putt yet".

That might work one time. However, it would swiftly be followed by the referee's admonition, "Don't do that again!"

[BobHatcher]

It depends on what "reasonable" is. The line of putt includes a reasonable distance of either side. Scott's feet certainly seem very close together, maybe about a foot. That means that there is about six inches leeway if he has accurately determined his line of putt. Is six inches "reasonable"? Given that the rules are consistent in that they in questionable situations they say to rule against the player, that six inches is not enough. My guess it that they address this in the next rules update.

[Mr. Bean]

Given that the rules are consistent in that they in questionable situations they say to rule against the player,....

 

Sorry, Bob, but that is not true. I suggest you read and carefully study Decision 34-3/9 and the Decisions referred therein.

[avrag]

I really think it is not an issue.

The rule is there for one reason only and that is the fear of a player improving the line by standing or walking on it. See the answer in sui generis' post #4.

Think about this for a minute and maybe you'll also start to think, "Why on Earth would that improve the line?" I think the answer lies centuries in the past, when greens were nowhere near as manicured as they are today. Like most rules, it was probably a reaction to something somebody did, which was deemed unfair by the rules authority of the time, like walking on the line to tap down the grass, creating a shute for the ball to run towards the hole better. This is certainly something we don't need to be afraid of today.

Nobody wants anybody else to stand or to walk on their lines of putts, because the footmarks and spikemarks make the ball go offline or jump. So why should anybody step onto their own line?

[chase_pete]

I didn't see the putt so I can't say what he was doing exactly but after just watching the aimpoint express dvd you aren't supposed to straddle the line itself. You get an initial read at/behind the ball to determine the low side then walk on the low side of your putt to the side of your line to get the actual read. So if you are doing it correctly you should be a foot or two to the side of your line.

[Mr. Bean]

Nobody wants anybody else to stand or to walk on their lines of putts, because the footmarks and spikemarks make the ball go offline or jump. So why should anybody step onto their own line?

 

If stepping on one's own line of putt was allowed where would you draw the line between stepping and smoothing?

[avrag]

Nobody wants anybody else to stand or to walk on their lines of putts, because the footmarks and spikemarks make the ball go offline or jump. So why should anybody step onto their own line?

 

If stepping on one's own line of putt was allowed where would you draw the line between stepping and smoothing?

 

Use the word "smoothing" in the rule, for instance (with the exception of ball makrs, which is in playce already).

I don't want to change the rule (actually I always cringe when a "Change this stupid rule!" thread comes up), but I think that the interpretation as given in the Q and A in post #4 plus my argument means that in 99.9% of the cases, we can be certain that a player using aimpoint (which I don't, because I think it is about as effective as plumb-bobbing) does not step on his line intentionally to improve the line of the putt.

I simply think that on greens in tour condition, stepping on the line will do more harm than good, which in itself will be a reason why a player will try to avoid it.

[Shilgy]

Nobody wants anybody else to stand or to walk on their lines of putts, because the footmarks and spikemarks make the ball go offline or jump. So why should anybody step onto their own line?

 

If stepping on one's own line of putt was allowed where would you draw the line between stepping and smoothing?

 

Use the word "smoothing" in the rule, for instance (with the exception of ball makrs, which is in playce already).

I don't want to change the rule (actually I always cringe when a "Change this stupid rule!" thread comes up), but I think that the interpretation as given in the Q and A in post #4 plus my argument means that in 99.9% of the cases, we can be certain that a player using aimpoint (which I don't, because I think it is about as effective as plumb-bobbing) does not step on his line intentionally to improve the line of the putt.

I simply think that on greens in tour condition, stepping on the line will do more harm than good, which in itself will be a reason why a player will try to avoid it.

Exactly. Plumb bobbing tells you(maybe) which way the green leans where you are standing. So move back or forward a bit and it changes. Same with how I understand Aim point. First it is a subjective number about the % of break and then you hold up a finger, or two or three. So wouldn't it depend on where exactly you stood-and how fat your fingers are for that matter? :happy:

I am certain some aim point advocate will step in soon to educate me(us)?

[Mr. Bean]

Nobody wants anybody else to stand or to walk on their lines of putts, because the footmarks and spikemarks make the ball go offline or jump. So why should anybody step onto their own line?

 

If stepping on one's own line of putt was allowed where would you draw the line between stepping and smoothing?

 

Use the word "smoothing" in the rule, for instance (with the exception of ball makrs, which is in playce already).

 

 

So..... if the Rule said 'you may step on your line of putt but you may not smooth it' would do the trick?

 

I am rather convinced that players are not allowed to deliberately step on their lines of putt for a very obvious reason and that is altering that line. It would be a mission impossible trying to establish whether the line had been altered or not in each case, thus it is far easier to forbid deliberate stepping on the line.

 

Besides, do remember that the Rules are for all golfers in the world playing in quite variable green qualities instead of only top pros playing in Augusta. Thus stepping on one's line of putt will have quite different impacts depending on the quality of the green.

[avrag]

Nobody wants anybody else to stand or to walk on their lines of putts, because the footmarks and spikemarks make the ball go offline or jump. So why should anybody step onto their own line?

 

If stepping on one's own line of putt was allowed where would you draw the line between stepping and smoothing?

 

Use the word "smoothing" in the rule, for instance (with the exception of ball makrs, which is in playce already).

 

 

So..... if the Rule said 'you may step on your line of putt but you may not smooth it' would do the trick?

 

I am rather convinced that players are not allowed to deliberately step on their lines of putt for a very obvious reason and that is altering that line. It would be a mission impossible trying to establish whether the line had been altered or not in each case, thus it is far easier to forbid deliberate stepping on the line.

 

Besides, do remember that the Rules are for all golfers in the world playing in quite variable green qualities instead of only top pros playing in Augusta. Thus stepping on one's line of putt will have quite different impacts depending on the quality of the green.

 

I don't understand.

Is this now about the next rule change, or rather "clarification" to do away with something the R&A thinks does not "look good"?

Why are you trying to pick a fight with me?

Where is your reply to my argument that as long as somebody does not step from his ball to the hole in tiny steps, thus creating a "valley" with sideguards on his line, there won't be any advantage whatsoever and that this is the only reason why the rule even exists?

What is so hard about understanding the term "for instance" I used after "smoothing".

Again:

I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE THE RULE.

I only think that it is not really necessary to look at Adam Scott's routine (or anyone else's routine who uses this stupid looking method) in Ultra HD and super slow-mo to determine whether they touched the line or not, because for all intents and purposes they would not want to step on their line.

And please stop being so condescending in telling me that not everybody plays on perfect greens. I know that. Thank you.

[QMany]

After banning anchoring, if they made a rule to stop Aimpoint reads, I'd be convinced Adam Scott slept with someone at the USGA's wife.

[LeoLeo99]

After banning anchoring, if they made a rule to stop Aimpoint reads, I'd be convinced Adam Scott slept with someone at the USGA's wife.

 

They will make the this new rule part of the no caddy reading putts for you in an overt manner rule.