Open source Face Labels for Lie angle - DIY lie angle testing

[dekez]

This is a great thread. I have in mind to build the attached alignment aid to make it easy to align the ball 90 degrees. I haven't found the bracket yet, though. What do you think?

 

 

[flog2]

what a great product. I want a perspex one to finally get my lie angles done properly

[SnowBound Golfer]

Great topic Howard. You have convinced me to stop using a lie board. Unless I missed it somwhere in the thread, has the math been worked out on the ratios for clubs other than a 6 iron? I enjoy tinkering and learning and in so doing would like to try this method with every club in the bag. I assume it would require different labels depending on loft of each club. Not a big deal.

Another question I have. Why is the center of the protractor well below the sole of the club? Would the resultbe the same if the center of the protractor was about center of the bottom score line, then have 3 referance lines go in each direction. This way the marker line from the ball would end up closer to the referance line on the lable, assuming the impact is close to center of club face. Just a thought.

I assume this method would also work on single length clubs, but if they are built to an 8 or 7 iron, that would make the ratio question become more important for me

 

Thanks again

[Howard_Jones]

on my way out to play, so i just cut and paste the answer i gave in the other tread here

I never got to the point where i could make a "chart" relation between loft and impact angle line, so those labels is NOT PERFECT for using on a hole set from #3 to LOB wedge.They are designed to be used for a iron with a loft of 31* (standard #6 on players irons, the one used for fitting in most cases)

 

The way to use them goes like this:

- Take the #6 iron and put on the label, hit a few balls and pay attention to the ANGLE of that line and compare it with the label behind.

We dont always impact the line itself, so its the ANGLE not impact spot.

 

No matter what actual lie angle this club has, the label tells how much we must adjust it one way or the other. to get it right.

Tweak, and try it again to make sure it became right.

 

When this iron is made, compare the actual lie angle on the club with "standard specs" for that model, and use the same "offset vs std" on the hole set. SO if the test club ends up with a lie angle of 1* upright vs standard specs, use 1* upright for the hole set.

 

Now you cant test each club in the set with the label, just to make sure they all turned out right, and tweak if needed.

 

That means is labels NOT "good enough" to be put on a hole set to send a way to someone for adjusting vs labels, use them on the club closest to 31 loft, and tweak the others to the same offset factor vs standard, thats how they should be used.

 

They might be used for both hybrids, woods and drivers with adjustable hosel, If the line from the ball aint strait, then adjust hosel settings, and test again, they should be good enough for that too since we seek a "strait vertical line" so it will always tell correct direction to tweak, even if it want be dead on with the ratio 10:1 when lie angle is off. This clubs is often forgotten especial hybrids with higher loft used to replace #3 and #4 irons, they should be tweaked right when possible, and that option exist on most hybrids today, but we could never test hybrids on a lie board, so this method has always been the only one for those clubs.

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[SnowBound Golfer]

Thanks for the response Howard. I did see it on the post regarding "lie impact marks". So now that my brain is in full motion on this subject, going back to being able to use labels on all clubs, I have a thought. Help me out on this.

Instead of using the lines in a verticle fashion, and therefore requiring various ratios (I still don't understand that whole theory, but am trying to learn), could the line on the ball be set up horizontally instead. From there, just use a plain label with just a horizontal line printed on it that is lined up with the bottom score line of the club. Once the ball is struck and leaves an imprint on the label, it can be compared to the score lines. The idea is to get them to line up by tweaking the club and retesting. By doing it this way, can it be done on every club regardless of the loft? I do realize that without the referance lines and graduated protractor, it would become more time consuming to adjust.

Failing that idea, did you use a formula to calculate the ratios for various lofts, but just ran out of time to test? If so, do you care to share so a guy like me can slow down the wheels of motion in my brain? LOL

 

Thanks kindly.

[Howard_Jones]

Thanks for the response Howard. I did see it on the post regarding "lie impact marks". So now that my brain is in full motion on this subject, going back to being able to use labels on all clubs, I have a thought. Help me out on this.

Instead of using the lines in a verticle fashion, and therefore requiring various ratios (I still don't understand that whole theory, but am trying to learn), could the line on the ball be set up horizontally instead. From there, just use a plain label with just a horizontal line printed on it that is lined up with the bottom score line of the club. Once the ball is struck and leaves an imprint on the label, it can be compared to the score lines. The idea is to get them to line up by tweaking the club and retesting. By doing it this way, can it be done on every club regardless of the loft? I do realize that without the referance lines and graduated protractor, it would become more time consuming to adjust.

Failing that idea, did you use a formula to calculate the ratios for various lofts, but just ran out of time to test? If so, do you care to share so a guy like me can slow down the wheels of motion in my brain? LOL

 

Thanks kindly.

 

If you go to this post, you get to know whats behind that label, and the short answer is NO, horizontal line on the ball want do.

Its not really the "angle" of the line we are measuring, but the wide of the bottom line of a triangle....the angle is the diagonal line of that triangle....

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1355102-open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/page__st__30#entry13850086

[Wardonation]

i made the 3 different angle options 10, 8.5 and 7 into labels of 1.75 x 1.25

 

 

 

 

 

That might make it easier to add them to a Avery label

Looking through this thread and have a question? I have always thought that if I am hitting ball on the toe, that I should go upright and if hitting on the heel I should go flat? Please verify... Thank you....

[Howard_Jones]

Thats the way it might go, but not always

 

When lie goes up, the club center get closer to us - That might cause Toe Side impact

When lie goes down, the club center gets further away from us.- That might cause Heel side impact.

 

In general when clubs is to long we tend to make impact heel side, and if its to shorty, toe side

This is the same, only down at small fragments so we might se the same trends for lie, where going up, moves impact against the toe, and going flat, moves impact against the heel.

 

When both length and lie is good, we should be on the center of the face.

 

 

From Titleist fitting manual

https://www.titleist.co.uk/teamtitleist/cfs-file/__key/communityserver-discussions-components-files/222/3833.fittingmanual_2D00_extract.jpg

 

But it does not always go down like this, but this is the general guideline

[Wardonation]

Thats the way it might go, but not always

 

When lie goes up, the club center get closer to us - That might cause Toe Side impact

When lie goes down, the club center gets further away from us.- That might cause Heel side impact.

 

In general when clubs is to long we tend to make impact heel side, and if its to shorty, toe side

This is the same, only down at small fragments so we might se the same trends for lie, where going up, moves impact against the toe, and going flat, moves impact against the heel.

 

When both length and lie is good, we should be on the center of the face.

I have always thought that "toe" impact means I need to bend upright and "heel" impact means I need to go flat?

[Wardonation]

Thats the way it might go, but not always

 

When lie goes up, the club center get closer to us - That might cause Toe Side impact

When lie goes down, the club center gets further away from us.- That might cause Heel side impact.

 

In general when clubs is to long we tend to make impact heel side, and if its to shorty, toe side

This is the same, only down at small fragments so we might se the same trends for lie, where going up, moves impact against the toe, and going flat, moves impact against the heel.

 

When both length and lie is good, we should be on the center of the face.

I have always thought that "toe" impact means I need to bend upright and "heel" impact means I need to go flat?

If club gets farther from us would that not mean "toe" impact with all things being equal? If club gets closer would that not mean "heel" impact? Sorry, I am just totally confused here. When I go on YouTube and look up the topic with repuatable fitters I see mixed answers? Thank you as always...

[Stuart_G]

Lie angle is one influence but there are multiple reasons for toe or heel side misses. And even just looking at the lie angle wont guarantee any particular impact shift. Some tendencies might be true for some but that doesn't mean it will be true for everyone. So if you are trying to diagnose lie angle problems from impact location - don't. Use the method explained in this thread to test the lie angle, it's simple, easy to do, and much more reliable. If the lie angle is off and if after fixing any lie angle issues you get an improvement in impact position, then that's great and you might not have to worry about any other causes.

[GSRswapandslow]

So....what do these impacts tell you??

[JDIL]

If my 6 iron is 26.5, should I then use a 7 iron? P790 stock angles.

[Howard_Jones]

So....what do these impacts tell you??

 

Sorry i have not seen your post before, its either your stance (to close to the ball) club is to short, or your swing (if toe side is constant)

[Howard_Jones]

If my 6 iron is 26.5, should I then use a 7 iron? P790 stock angles.

 

are you talking LOFT? then no worries, the labels can handle more then 10* both ways from 31* they was developed for, and in the end, if the line is strait up and down, lie is good no matter loft.

[JDIL]

If my 6 iron is 26.5, should I then use a 7 iron? P790 stock angles.

 

are you talking LOFT? then no worries, the labels can handle more then 10* both ways from 31* they was developed for, and in the end, if the line is strait up and down, lie is good no matter loft.

Yes. Okay, will get to testing on a 6

[jcjmw2]

This is a great informative thread. I am learning a lot. If I can share something, that might be useful.

 

3 years ago, my wife purchased a set of 2016 T-MBs for me as a gift. I was a 14 handicap at that time. I am now a 9 handicap and my recurring miss is a pull or, if it is not a pull, a straight left of my target. I know it’s me too inside on the backswing and then coming over the top. I get lessons once every three months and I am slowly getting better. My ball mark on the long irons is center but on the mid irons to my AW is more towards the heel....again I know my swing is the primary reason.

 

A few weeks ago, I went to a Titleist demo event. I decided to hit the 2018 T-MBs. For whatever reason, I hit the 2018s better. It was more online to my target - to the point that I can see and feel the difference and measured on the trackman. I told the Titleist rep that and we started talking. He then looked at my T-MB’s and said they are more upright then standard. I was surprised. I then dug up the receipt on my 2016 T-MB’s and it said, 2 degrees upright. I told this to my golf pro and he said that difference would have a small impact on me but that impact could get bigger as I get better with my swing mechanics.

 

Moral of the story: if you can, get fitted for your irons as the wrong lie angle for your swing can make a difference.

[BHGolf]

So....what do these impacts tell you??

 

I have the same issue as you and i started getting this after I got clubs -5 inch.

What was the result of your toe hits?

[Curious]

@Buddha said:

* > This is a link to a doc file for the Avery 5160 address labels template, with Howards image perfectly fit. It was the easiest label for me to pick up locally, and his original pdf didn't line up to the stickers<

Avery 06498 easy peelare the same but only 10 sheets of 30. Cost is much lower if you want to use labels.

https://assets.avery.ca/file/14865594984/format=WEB/350x500/fit=pad/avery_06498_14865594984.jpg

 

 

 

[Justin_Breezy88]

I don’t understand how to read adjust according to the results. So the line or mark is more towards the toe, like around 1.5 flat does that mean the goal is to bend my club 1.5 flat to match that? Or does it mean I go 1.5 upright to make it go back to “0” position ?

[Howard_Jones]

Post a photo of it.

its NOT impact position, but line angle we shall jugde

[TIM929]

Thank you @Howard Jones!
I marked the line on 1/2 The ball and below are my results. Strike looks high to me, but don’t think I need lie adjustments.. this is a awesome tool.

the thing is, I have a problem with over drawing the ball. Thought my lie angle was the issue, but I guess not.

I was fit into TMB 716 (full set) 2* flat when they first released so I guess my fitter did a excellent job with the lie angle.

first strike:
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/649/8G65WBNIH9VY.jpeg[/img]2nd strike:
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/687/PCSYAAF0QEM7.jpeg[/img]

[Howard_Jones]

Yours is in the area of 0.25*-0.50* against flat (aligning of label is a bit off, so your conclusion is right, lie angle is not the cause for a unwanted draw, and then it face closure (to much face closing vs club path)

Look at your lowest hand at address, you might have grip "to strong" where the lowest hand is forced to close more than it should, OR you play a grip with too little diameter under the lowest hand (to much taper, try asymmetric build up or +4 grips to slow down face closing`)

You should also try 1-3 grams more head weight and see if that moves impact to the center of the face, you are slightly toe side.

Your label is not put on correct, the 2 black horizontal line in the bottom of the label is alignment lines vs grooves. (i cant see yours but can see the label is not parallel to the top, so your return is off by 0.25-0.5, and its also why your impact looks a little higher on the face than it is, the label is places too low.

Before we add the label, use a caliper to find the middle of the face and set a small mark there to use for aligning to the ZERO line on the label, then use the horizontal lines to adjust the label so its parallell with the grooves.

Here is correct placement of the label, the lowest groove on the face is now on the same height and parallell to the lowest groove on the face

 

[TIM929]

Oh wow thank you for the very awesome recommendations which make total sense. I’ll start experimenting tomorrow..

I do have a really strong lower hand grip and my miss hits are toe strikes with all my clubs.

 

This makes sense because I have plus 4 grips on my wedges with s400 shafts. I make center face contact with my vokey d grind 60.12 often. I’m not sure how much more head weight my d grind has vs others, but it feels heavier than the others.

I’m now thinking the extra weight along with the plus 4 grips are helping with center face contact. I’ll get the lead tape going tomorrow and check my grip to make sure it’s not too strong as well. Hopefully I can change all my grips to plus 4s(I recently re gripped my clubs for 2020... wish I knew lol).

 

Thanks again Howard and hope everyone try’s this! It’s super fun.

[Howard_Jones]

I play reduced taper myself, but prefer New Decade and Asymmetrical BU tape vs the +4 version, but thats me :-)

I developed this asymmetrical BU tape for WEDGES (before the +4 models came to the marked), to make it easier to hit a "follow trough" where we keep face angle the same trough the ball, it has a stabilizing effect on face angle timing since the lowest hand responsible for face closure becomes more "relaxed" with more meat to hold on too, so for players who close up to much, and fight the left side (right hand players), try this Asymmetrical BU tape method on ANY grip they have to straiten out the taper, and make them more like +4 grips is for the lowest hand.

The "standard" im using here is 4 layers total build up,

- The Build up tape area is between the White lines on the grip, a total of 10 Inch

Ive chosen to use "steps of tape" each is 2.25 long

Start by adding a mark 1 inch down from the but.

- First layer starts at this mark and go down against the head side. - This layer is 4 x 2.25 = 9 inch

- Second layer start from the head side and up, - This layer is 3 x 2.25 = 6.75 inch

- Third layer starts from the head side and up. - This layer is 2 x 2.25 = 4.5 inch

- Forth layer starts from the head side and up - This layer is 1 x 2.25 = 2.25

All done, it will look like this, and you are free to add full layers of BU tape on top if a even larger over all size is wanted, so you can as example start from a standard size, and make it a MID size plus the added asymmetrical BU tape is wanted. The Asymmetrical tape used is 4.5 grams, but since its in front of the grip, the SW scale dont go bananas for that reason. (expect 2/3 SWP lower return value).

If you want the 4 layer to go further up, feel free to change 1 or ALL step lengths to even out the shaft butt diameter on your actual shaft. (measure diameter from the butt and 10 inch down, the area between the white rings we see at both ends of this grip, thats the "tape area", so my BU example adds diameter to the lowest 9 of 10 inches on the grip.) Use this idea, and make it like YOU want them to be.

PS! Build up tape shall NEVER go longer than the shaft butt, and a last layer of DB sided grip tape is the only layer that shall be long enough to "close the shaft butt", and pass the shaft butt.

[TIM929]

Hi @Howard_Jones below are my wedges:
52*
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/998/QDDP3P9A9APH.jpeg[/img]
56*
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/853/JE50PC1YI5TF.jpeg[/img]
60*
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/660/QVI5WN8YXY7G.jpeg[/img]can you recommend any adjustments please?

thank you so much sir.

[Howard_Jones]

Sorry but using those labels without aligning them correct with the grooves make them worthless, thats what the 2 horizontal black lines was for, but your labels is off big time on the first and the 3. Only label 2 is aligned correct, but you also made the line on the ball way to wide, it should be one thin line only, so its hard to tell if its your drawing of the line that make it seems like it does, or if its the lie angle thats 0.25 to 0.5 against flat.

[TIM929]

Oh I see, sorry. I’ll re-do correctly. Thank you!

[joostin]

Bump due to related thread: https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1762442-why-did-i-get-3-different-readings-should-i-just-get-my-own/

@Howard_Jones that thread got me thinking because I incorrectly thought the ball marker angle was 1:1 with lie adjustment.  I tried finding the inner workings of how the 10:1 ratio came about, and saw this thread, but unfortunately the pictures are gone, so I don't understand without them.  I tried testing some lofts and lies in CAD to see what I would get for theoretical line angles on the face - below.  ** I understand in reality there will be different impact positions on the ball (not directly on the marker line) and on the clubface due to lie, face angle, path, etc.  Then there will be tilted spin axis, curvature and such.**  But I'm having a hard time for instance seeing the marker lines actually marking 30* on the face in the first place, and then the correction would only be a 3* lie adjustment.  Am I looking at this wrong???  Here are pictures of my tests.  The 3D club model is a 61* wedge, which i can't adjust, so i just have an "adjustable loft face" that I put at 60* and 30* (6 iron), then varied from 1* to 30* upright lies just to exaggerate the angles.  I find the higher the loft, the less the marker line angle will be on the face.  Where the vertical blue-green plane intersects the "adjustable loft face" represents the marker line angles indicated.  Hope this makes sense:

Top view of club at 30* upright lie:

  P.S. if there is a bigger nerd than me on this forum, let me know!

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, joostin said:

Am I looking at this wrong??? 

 

I've thought over the same question myself.   While I can't say for sure, but looking at slo-mo impacts, I have to believe it's a consequence of the compression and deformation of the ball at impact that causes the distortion how the mark is transferred to the face.