Mastering Ben Hogan's Swing

[moehogan]

Great swings, Virt! Entire right side is looking more synched and fluid.

[virtuoso]

Great swings, Virt! Entire right side is looking more synched and fluid.

 

Thanks Moe, making tiny adjustments and trying to blend them in. Gone a little backwards in a couple areas but improved in others. By the end of the year it will be pretty tight.

[virtuoso]

[virtuoso]

 

[virtuoso]

 

[virtuoso]

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[virtuoso]

[dpb5031]

Love your knuckle slider swing. lovely action, exit and finish. Are you going to tell us more about what you do to achieve all this?

i want your swing please.

 

Hey Pin, one thing for certain (just like you've said before), no one quite understands how much you have to get your weight (pressure) left, even with the driver, which is quite rare. Both the upper body and the lower body have to move massively left. You go left until you're going to fall over and then you have enough friction under your left foot to translate into rotation--both pelvis and your whole torso lumbar, thorasic, and even your cervical is released into rotation. But, Hogan set the tilt early in transision so you could do this and still deliver good shallow angles. A lot of Hogan copiers dig trenches.

 

Also, Hogan was known for plane but he did more plane shifting than anyone--in action he ignored plane entirely. His feel of tilting the downswing plane underneath the backswing feel turned out to be just this: large arm winding and undwinding, massive beta torques (jacob/nesbit). It doesn't feel anything like what I thought a golf swing should feel like.

 

With those huge arm windings, he had to do pelvis shifts to balance them out and deliver the club to the execution phase 2D plane at P6. As the clubhead cg goes into high speed at P5 to P6, it gains a ton of inertia, so the plane goes 2D until it slows down at P8. Then it departs and bends off the plane again.

 

That 200 degree arm rotation would make him look like a massive flipper if it wasn't hidden or masked in a very active pivot train form P6 all the way to the finish.

 

....but he can't keep that pivot train moving on the left foot if he doesn't first get crazy left with everything.

 

Interesting thread and great looking swing! Your statements above about "getting left" helped a little light bulb flicker back on for me.

 

I've been struggling with my swing a bit over the past month that has pretty much coincided with an inexplicable swelling of my left knee (seeing the ortho this week). Anyway, after reading your statements above I was more conscious than I've been in a while about getting left today, and I hit it better than I have in a while...shot 71 and won $280 in our men's group.

 

Keep up the good work! I suppose I owe you a beer...lol!?

[virtuoso]

Love your knuckle slider swing. lovely action, exit and finish. Are you going to tell us more about what you do to achieve all this?

i want your swing please.

 

Hey Pin, one thing for certain (just like you've said before), no one quite understands how much you have to get your weight (pressure) left, even with the driver, which is quite rare. Both the upper body and the lower body have to move massively left. You go left until you're going to fall over and then you have enough friction under your left foot to translate into rotation--both pelvis and your whole torso lumbar, thorasic, and even your cervical is released into rotation. But, Hogan set the tilt early in transision so you could do this and still deliver good shallow angles. A lot of Hogan copiers dig trenches.

 

Also, Hogan was known for plane but he did more plane shifting than anyone--in action he ignored plane entirely. His feel of tilting the downswing plane underneath the backswing feel turned out to be just this: large arm winding and undwinding, massive beta torques (jacob/nesbit). It doesn't feel anything like what I thought a golf swing should feel like.

 

With those huge arm windings, he had to do pelvis shifts to balance them out and deliver the club to the execution phase 2D plane at P6. As the clubhead cg goes into high speed at P5 to P6, it gains a ton of inertia, so the plane goes 2D until it slows down at P8. Then it departs and bends off the plane again.

 

That 200 degree arm rotation would make him look like a massive flipper if it wasn't hidden or masked in a very active pivot train form P6 all the way to the finish.

 

....but he can't keep that pivot train moving on the left foot if he doesn't first get crazy left with everything.

 

Interesting thread and great looking swing! Your statements above about "getting left" helped a little light bulb flicker back on for me.

 

I've been struggling with my swing a bit over the past month that has pretty much coincided with an inexplicable swelling of my left knee (seeing the ortho this week). Anyway, after reading your statements above I was more conscious than I've been in a while about getting left today, and I hit it better than I have in a while...shot 71 and won $280 in our men's group.

 

Keep up the good work! I suppose I owe you a beer...lol!?

 

Great playing Dpb! Glad I could help. Hope you can get that knee fixed up.

[dpb5031]

Thanks. I think I'd been subconsciously favoring/protecting the knee and got a little spinny. Also had surgery on my left hip last Nov. so could all be related. Sucks getting older and dealing with these sports injuries.

 

I've always played best getting aggressive into my left side. I'm kind of a late shallower, so it makes sense that this move helps me shallow. Not sure if you're familiar with Slicefixer, but he has told me in person more than once that "most people have no idea how much a good player gets into his left side in the golf swing."

[virtuoso]

Thanks. I think I'd been subconsciously favoring/protecting the knee and got a little spinny. Also had surgery on my left hip last Nov. so could all be related. Sucks getting older and dealing with these sports injuries.

 

I've always played best getting aggressive into my left side. I'm kind of a late shallower, so it makes sense that this move helps me shallow. Not sure if you're familiar with Slicefixer, but he has told me in person more than once that "most people have no idea how much a good player gets into his left side in the golf swing."

 

And Hogan gets more left than even most good players...and with the driver, which is really unique.

[verderraul]

Great swing virtuoso . Now show "myswingevolution" how it is done :)

 

Few questions : how do you ensure that you don't get too much left ? ( i.e. too much lateral slide )

What is the stock ball flight ? And

How do you think you square the club face at impact ?

[virtuoso]

Great swing virtuoso . Now show "myswingevolution" how it is done :)

 

Few questions : how do you ensure that you don't get too much left ? ( i.e. too much lateral slide )

What is the stock ball flight ? And

How do you think you square the club face at impact ?

 

Thanks Verderraul!

 

Christo seems like a very nice guy, and I empathize with his quest to swing like Hogan. I made a comment on his youtube channel about getting together to hit some balls and work on it (we are both in socal), and I also sent him a message on his website, but he never responded. Probably thinks I'm an MSE stalker. LOL. He has certainly improved his action and ball striking a ton by the looks of it.

 

But, as people have pointed out, he has a ways to go before it he is making legit Hogan moves. Some of the issue is that I don't think he quite understands what Hogan is actually doing--he's made some errors in observation that a lot of good instructors make. He talks about big load and stretch/shorten cycles in transition. A lot of great ball strikers do that--but Hogan didn't. Christo does a decent Hogan backswing and then goes into external rotation early. As he is doing that he tries very hard to get his hip turned deep and left into the left heel. If you just watched Hogan DTL, you could get tricked into that. Hogan counter falls into his left leg while staying in internal rotation, and then goes into external rotation much later than other good ball strikers. Because he does that, he gets a massive amount of pressure into the ball of the left foot first and then the pelvis and torso rotation takes it quickly into the heel. YOU CANNOT SKIP THAT STEP IF YOU DO HOGAN.

 

Since Christo skips that step and gets into the left heel early, his foot just wants to spin out while he tries to get his torso open. He always complains about not getting open enough and his "unstable left leg" and that it is lack of flexibility. That is some of it for sure, but anyone that gets into their left heel too early is going to struggle with those problems. Since he can't keep the torso train going while on his heel, he just stands up to get out of his own way and unhinges the club. That all leads to the really upright shaft exit.

 

Now, he has tried to cheat the system a little by starting with an open stance, and lately, by releasing his head early like Duval. That will actually help his ball striking but get him further from Hogan.

 

But, to the extent he is trying to replicate Hogan vs just get better and help other golfers is up to him. I think he has helped a lot of guys regardless of whether he actually achieves a legit Hogan move.

 

To answer your questions, YOU CAN"T GET TOO FAR LEFT....if you maintain sequence and torso tilt. The issue is that Hogan is moving everything left AND keeps turning forever. So, it really is a massive slide AND turn. Either of those by themselves is a disaster.

 

Ball flight is slightly lower launch and spin and shallower, longer divot. But, I really don't quite have the Hogan wrist alignments at impact quite right yet, so we will see. Divot actually curves left, it is actually almost bent. You can definitely (with an iron) start the ball right with draw, with a slightly left divot. Also, my irons are 4 degrees flat. YOU CANNOT DO THIS WITH STD LIE IRONS. Don't even try.

 

The clubface feels so open and the clubhead feels SO FAR behind it is bizzare. I have no idea how it is making it to square. Technically I'm obviously applying enough force and torque to the handle to get the face there but the FEEL is that the shaft and head are "bent" way behind me until very late. It might feel totally different to another guy.

[virtuoso]

How do you think you square the club face at impact ?

 

Club way behind....

 

[virtuoso]

Here is the swing from the screen shot above. Pardon the overly dramatic music--I got a little carried away.

 

[verderraul]

How do you think you square the club face at impact ?

 

Club way behind....

 

 

You square it by turning the handle around :) love it

[virtuoso]

On the video, the sun is looking right down the impact shaft plane. It's cool to watch the shadow of the shaft lift up off that plane and come back down to it. From P6 to P8 it is 2D.

[verderraul]

Thanks Verderraul!

 

Christo seems like a very nice guy, and I empathize with his quest to swing like Hogan. I made a comment on his youtube channel about getting together to hit some balls and work on it (we are both in socal), and I also sent him a message on his website, but he never responded. Probably thinks I'm an MSE stalker. LOL. He has certainly improved his action and ball striking a ton by the looks of it.

 

But, as people have pointed out, he has a ways to go before it he is making legit Hogan moves. Some of the issue is that I don't think he quite understands what Hogan is actually doing--he's made some errors in observation that a lot of good instructors make. He talks about big load and stretch/shorten cycles in transition. A lot of great ball strikers do that--but Hogan didn't. Christo does a decent Hogan backswing and then goes into external rotation early. As he is doing that he tries very hard to get his hip turned deep and left into the left heel. If you just watched Hogan DTL, you could get tricked into that. Hogan counter falls into his left leg while staying in internal rotation, and then goes into external rotation much later than other good ball strikers. Because he does that, he gets a massive amount of pressure into the ball of the left foot first and then the pelvis and torso rotation takes it quickly into the heel. YOU CANNOT SKIP THAT STEP IF YOU DO HOGAN.

 

Since Christo skips that step and gets into the left heel early, his foot just wants to spin out while he tries to get his torso open. He always complains about not getting open enough and his "unstable left leg" and that it is lack of flexibility. That is some of it for sure, but anyone that gets into their left heel too early is going to struggle with those problems. Since he can't keep the torso train going while on his heel, he just stands up to get out of his own way and unhinges the club. That all leads to the really upright shaft exit.

 

Now, he has tried to cheat the system a little by starting with an open stance, and lately, by releasing his head early like Duval. That will actually help his ball striking but get him further from Hogan.

 

But, to the extent he is trying to replicate Hogan vs just get better and help other golfers is up to him. I think he has helped a lot of guys regardless of whether he actually achieves a legit Hogan move.

 

To answer your questions, YOU CAN"T GET TOO FAR LEFT....if you maintain sequence and torso tilt. The issue is that Hogan is moving everything left AND keeps turning forever. So, it really is a massive slide AND turn. Either of those by themselves is a disaster.

 

Ball flight is slightly lower launch and spin and shallower, longer divot. But, I really don't quite have the Hogan wrist alignments at impact quite right yet, so we will see. Divot actually curves left, it is actually almost bent. You can definitely (with an iron) start the ball right with draw, with a slightly left divot. Also, my irons are 4 degrees flat. YOU CANNOT DO THIS WITH STD LIE IRONS. Don't even try.

 

The clubface feels so open and the clubhead feels SO FAR behind it is bizzare. I have no idea how it is making it to square. Technically I'm obviously applying enough force and torque to the handle to get the face there but the FEEL is that the shaft and head are "bent" way behind me until very late. It might feel totally different to another guy.

 

"He has certainly improved his action and ball striking a ton by the looks of it.". T

 

hat's a by product of beating a lot of balls ;) But he is no where close to Hogan.

 

"Since Christo skips that step and gets into the left heel early, his foot just wants to spin out while he tries to get his torso open. He always complains about not getting open enough and his "unstable left leg" and that it is lack of flexibility. That is some of it for sure, but anyone that gets into their left heel too early is going to struggle with those problems. Since he can't keep the torso train going while on his heel, he just stands up to get out of his own way and unhinges the club. That all leads to the really upright shaft exit."

 

I feel I have some of those issues....especially with driver. Going to experiment with pressuring the ball of left foot in early transition. Do you have any drills for correct transition ?

[dap]

Virtuoso, have you looked into Hogan's tempo? His backswing looks fast so I suspect his tempo is going to be faster than the so called ideal 3 to 1 ratio. How does your own tempo compare?

 

Nice looking swing btw

[virtuoso]

I feel I have some of those issues....especially with driver. Going to experiment with pressuring the ball of left foot in early transition. Do you have any drills for correct transition ?

 

I wish i did have a drill. I'm having a hard time doing the right tranny myself. I'm still rotating my hips too early--before I fall left--and not shallowing the shaft enough. The next few videos from this morning are laying the shaft down some but my right arm is too punchy. I have an idea of how to fix that though.

 

You just have to move your butt toward the target a lot and then when you can't go anymore, go more and start to widen the legs out. When you start down, your left leg should still be caving in. That will help you lean into the ball of the lead foot before transferring to the heel.

 

[virtuoso]

Virtuoso, have you looked into Hogan's tempo? His backswing looks fast so I suspect his tempo is going to be faster than the so called ideal 3 to 1 ratio. How does your own tempo compare?

 

Nice looking swing btw

 

Hmm, I haven't thought about it much. I'm on the quick side but not as quick as Hogan. Will consider that more going forward because the positions and speed and sequence are all morphed together.

[virtuoso]

Laying the shaft down but right arm too far behind me.

 

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[virtuoso]

 

[dap]

I feel I have some of those issues....especially with driver. Going to experiment with pressuring the ball of left foot in early transition. Do you have any drills for correct transition ?

 

I wish i did have a drill. I'm having a hard time doing the right tranny myself. I'm still rotating my hips too early--before I fall left--and not shallowing the shaft enough. The next few videos from this morning are laying the shaft down some but my right arm is too punchy. I have an idea of how to fix that though.

 

You just have to move your butt toward the target a lot and then when you can't go anymore, go more and start to widen the legs out. When you start down, your left leg should still be caving in. That will help you lean into the ball of the lead foot before transferring to the heel.

 

John Schlee was a student of Hogan and he said Ben showed him a move in the transition. Hogan asked Schlee to go to the top of the backswing and from there he got hold of his club and pulled it straight down behind his back. I tried it and can't do it. I suspect you need a lot of flexibility to copy Hogan's transition especially while turning the hips and at his tempo.

[virtuoso]

John Schlee was a student of Hogan and he said Ben showed him a move in the transition. Hogan asked Schlee to go to the top of the backswing and from there he got hold of his club and pulled it straight down behind his back. I tried it and can't do it. I suspect you need a lot of flexibility to copy Hogan's transition especially while turning the hips and at his tempo.

 

Yeah, I heard that. Hogan himself is a bit of an "Unreliable Narrator" in that he probably didn't get to do any video analysis of his own swing. No doubt he saw footage of it, but not a bunch of slow mo stuff. He told us what his intents were and he told us what his feel was. I would trust you to tell me what he did more that the man himself. I imagine that he was trying to get Schlee to feel the idea of the downswing plane being more tilted under and to the right. But we know he didn't do that. His clubhead certainly fell behind but his hands moved out as the club shallowed, and then sinks to the impact plane.

 

You've seen him simulate his own swing in "slow motion" in the Coleman video among others. his transition was nothing like that. I imagine the counter fall took place while he felt like he was completing his backswing because he was still cocking his wrists, but the counter fall IS the beginning of the downswing. He turned like a banshee after that--which he was very conscious of.

 

So, if I had DAP looking at my swing to judge and Hogan himself, I think DAP would know if I was nailing it more than him because you've seen more slo-mo analysis of his swing than he has.

 

You probably do have to have some flexibility to make that Hogan tranny but the real issue is that your brain won't let you do it because it doesn't know how to get back to the ball after that. It puts up safe-guards against it. You have to break those safe-guards.

[virtuoso]

Elbow is better, backswing shoulder plane is steeper, clubs is shallowing but not enough and pivot is still off.

 

 

[virtuoso]

 

[virtuoso]

This next series of videos, almost entirely working on maintaining lordosis in the downswing:

 

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[virtuoso]

 

[virtuoso]